After Awakening (Enlightened), The Buddha Was Reluctant To Teach?

[rockyysdt]

It didn't mislead me. I mean I am not going to consider the entire Canon invalid just because of some supernatural episodes added to it. It's not a scientific theory that crumbles once the tiniest flaw is found. All that's needed is a bit of critical thinking.

In terms of what the Buddha was teaching, it may have misled all of us.

Monks wait to be invited before teaching Dharma. Was this the Buddhas real intention?

The Canon contains an embellishment. How accurate is the rest of its content?

One section of the Canon illustrates the Buddha as possessing mundane powers whilst another section tells of one with supramundane powers. What was the reality?

As simple as his innacuracy may appear, it can have profound implications to what was being taught.

Edited October 31, 2012 by rockyysdt

[sabaijai]

I agree with camerata, the implications are hardly profound, rocky. There is a fairly substantial amount of self-contradiction found within the Tipitaka. It is not entirely scientifically logical, and is partially mystical. That fact cannot be escaped, in my opinion. If you expect perfect consistency from the canon, you'll face disappointment after disappointment, I'm afraid.

http://speculativenonbuddhism.com/

[weary]

One section of the Canon illustrates the Buddha as possessing mundane powers whilst another section tells of one with supramundane powers. What was the reality?

Annicca, Dukkha, Anatta,

With Metta

[rockyysdt]

One section of the Canon illustrates the Buddha as possessing mundane powers whilst another section tells of one with supramundane powers. What was the reality?

Annicca, Dukkha, Anatta,

With Metta

In hindsight my reply to the post on "I guess we'll see when we get there" didn't convey my intention (light hearted).

Definitely "Annicca, Dukkha, & Anatta", Weary.

With Karuna & Mudita

Edited November 1, 2012 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

I agree with camerata, the implications are hardly profound, rocky. There is a fairly substantial amount of self-contradiction found within the Tipitaka. It is not entirely scientifically logical, and is partially mystical. That fact cannot be escaped, in my opinion. If you expect perfect consistency from the canon, you'll face disappointment after disappointment, I'm afraid.

http://speculativenonbuddhism.com/

There was a small crack which I felt worthy of exploring.

In the end, none of us would know.

For me, exploring such discussions deepens my knowledge as we all pitch in with teachings of Dharma.

Not to mention getting to know the our members a little better.

In terms of the O P, why the Buddha hesitated to teach will continue to be a mystery.

[Several]

Another aspect could be that teaching Dhamma only became a possibility once Nibbana was attained. The actual attainment was the aim. Upon arrival (metaphorical Rocky ) the Buddha has achieved all aims. All his dreams have come true, as it were. What next? Abide in that state, which cost massive effort, fortunate circumstance and near starvation? Or go forth and teach this possibility knowing the established religious figures would oppose him vigorously perhaps even attempting assasination, just because a few might succeed? He only hesitates. He does not flee and leave samsara to its fate, does not die in anonymous equanimity. This man was a hero from a clan of warriors.

[weary]

One section of the Canon illustrates the Buddha as possessing mundane powers whilst another section tells of one with supramundane powers. What was the reality?

Annicca, Dukkha, Anatta,

With Metta

In hindsight my reply to the post on "I guess we'll see when we get there" didn't convey my intention (light hearted).

Definitely "Annicca, Dukkha, & Anatta", Weary.

With Karuna & Mudita

I think practicing the path is worth the effort, and try to make that foremost in my mind.

I have my views on what is what, they err mostly on the side of caution, and what I 'think I know' about the way things are, and based on that, I don't think the Buddha was omnipotent - but I do think there's a good enough chance he had access to a layer of reality where natural laws no longer applied - however, his working through a human body would have placed limitations upon the access and use of that knowledge and any supramundane powers that might have come with them - i.e. I don't think he was simultaneously focused on EVERYTHING at the same time, and it would have taken some time (looking at it from a mundane perspective) for him to access the stream and extract info therefrom.

It is also possible that he simply (as if that would not be enough) developed a brain hack that eliminated stress, by gradual insight and mastery into his neurological mechanisms. After all, he did not really say his path leads to supernatural powers, at least not for everyone, but he was clear on that it leads to the end of dissatisfaction/stress/suffering.

This is all speculation from a small limited mind such as my own, of course. Apart from spacing out majorly and thinking I had first access to universal consciousness and was on a Boddhisattva mission, I haven't experienced much out of the ordinary while practicing path. I have not even got consistent access concentration at this stage.

[rockyysdt]

I think practicing the path is worth the effort, and try to make that foremost in my mind.

I have my views on what is what, they err mostly on the side of caution, and what I 'think I know' about the way things are, and based on that, I don't think the Buddha was omnipotent - but I do think there's a good enough chance he had access to a layer of reality where natural laws no longer applied - however, his working through a human body would have placed limitations upon the access and use of that knowledge and any supramundane powers that might have come with them - i.e. I don't think he was simultaneously focused on EVERYTHING at the same time, and it would have taken some time (looking at it from a mundane perspective) for him to access the stream and extract info therefrom.

It is also possible that he simply (as if that would not be enough) developed a brain hack that eliminated stress, by gradual insight and mastery into his neurological mechanisms. After all, he did not really say his path leads to supernatural powers, at least not for everyone, but he was clear on that it leads to the end of dissatisfaction/stress/suffering.

This is all speculation from a small limited mind such as my own, of course. Apart from spacing out majorly and thinking I had first access to universal consciousness and was on a Boddhisattva mission, I haven't experienced much out of the ordinary while practicing path. I have not even got consistent access concentration at this stage.

It was good to learn your thoughts and interpretations.

The key which you indicate can't be disputed by anyone on the Buddhist path.

This being the need to practice regularly and to experience for oneself.

Many are clear about the end goal being a supramundane state.

As the Buddhas warned not to accept anything on face value but to explore and experience for oneself (especially due to inconsistencies in the Canon) I'm open to the possibility of either:

• A supramundane state or
  
• 
  
• A mundane state free from suffering and with powers unknown to us.
  

Your idea that whilst still living in a limited body might affect the Buddha's access to powers and knowledge (similar to a PC with inadequate ram) makes sense.

Here's to regular practice for all.

Edited November 1, 2012 by rockyysdt

[yellow1red1]

Buddha had good reason for being reticent upon observing [reality]. Once we discover, see for ourselves, that Creation was born of Great Distress, not Ordered Glory, the Suffering and Lonliness would break most. All of the Scriptures of ALL of the Mythologies, including the Bible, deliniate UNlightenement as the Stucture of Existence, yet our weak Minds want to Imagine these are, only, 'Stories'.

No matter what 'some' [think] Thought cannot be destroyed. Thought is one of the Prime Elements of all Existence. So is Time, so is Distress, so is Matter. Remove any one of these Elements and there is No Existence. You can call that Nirvana, out of fear? out of hope?, however that state IS be No Existence.

Notice how the Abrahamic Supplicants always 'claim' there Entity is ALL Powerful, ALL Good. Well, why doesn't there Torah, Bible, Quaran say so? eg [in the Beggining ALL was Perfect ....]

Truth is [in the Beginning there was Darkness]. [in the Present there is Darkness] In the Future, too.

Would you feel [safe/saved] with this Knowledge? Would you feel inclined to teach it?

You would understand; it really doesn't matter. Solomon told us this, exactly. ALL is Vanity, Vanity is ALL. < TRUE

It depends what you are referring to Y1R1

If you refer to Awakening/Nirvana as a "mundane state" in which you are free from suffering which was due to attachment to aversion, delusion and greed, then the teaching and attainment is priceless, while you live.

If you refer to Awakening/Nirvana as a "supramundane state" in which you become free of suffering from the cycle of attachment to that which is created, that which is controlled, and that which dies, then isn't this superior to bondage (attachment) to a conditioned Deity (God = The Creator, The Controller, & the Destroyer)?

One who is in bondage to a deity is subject to transience, control, and change over time.

You mention there is nothing without time.

Time is only relevevant to that which is impermanent.

Perfection, beyond that which is created, that which is controlled, and that which is destroyed (permanent & unconditioned), is Nibbhana.

It contains Ajata (unborn), Abhuta (unexisting), & Amata (Undying).

Yes, this is the big question!

Is Nibbhana nothingness, or is it a supramundine state beyond our understanding (as nothingness can also contain Ajata, Abhuta, & Amata)?

well, actually, I'm saying there, most probably, is no Awakening/Nirvana state, like Solomon said, it's ALL futile. It's an Awareness/Distress State. Buddha was the epitamy of observational human intellect derived from godly free thinking. Why didn't he dance a jig when he figured it all out?

Yes, It would be more 'diplomatic' to make up or go along with one or another of the Immortality Delusions we had to create when we came to realise we all get turned into piles of dirt. Yes, it's suffering, with a capital 'S'. We have to, [have] invented hundreds of imaginary Escapes from Mortality. Sorry, to say. The only, true, ecstacy is Hope. [the honest conclusion]

and really? Time! just remove it... what have you got? nothing, motion goes, too. redefining Time as some unimportant little cog is the latest flavour. If that's the case we could, then, say there is no music. Time is a Prime Element, as is Thought, as is Matter.

-------------------------------------------------

[time, matter, motion]; [matter, thought, life]; [thought, time, death] = Existence; < that's all She wrote

Hey, I ain't [attached] to believing there's a Nirvana. Do the math.

[SiameseCurios]

It didn't mislead me. I mean I am not going to consider the entire Canon invalid just because of some supernatural episodes added to it. It's not a scientific theory that crumbles once the tiniest flaw is found. All that's needed is a bit of critical thinking.

That's astute.

Your phrase "it's not a scientific theory" sums up the complexities and (sometimes apparent) contradictions very well.

[yellow1red1]

People tend to want to nail you to something, set you on fire or throw rocks at you when you tell them the truth.

Especially if the Truth is; the Realisation, the understanding, that there is no Enlightenement, no Paradise, no Nirvana. How could anyone, possibly, make money and be Worshipped by explaining the existence of a Heaven couldn't abide, by Design, the existence of a Hell. Hell doesn't abide the existence of a Heaven, that is evident. The reason Buddha never sang and did a dance when he reached Realisation, is because he reached Realisation. Cross Reference with Solomon's words, "Vanity is all, all is Vanity." as in that is ALL folks. Cross reference with Pandora's Box. The last Critter that came out was Hope. Hope is the ONLY true Exctasy and 40 years in a Forest won't change that.

So,,, Budhha's question,,, 'How can I teach this?' is maybe "should I teach this?" eh...

The Bodhivistas, who followed the Buddha path and reached Realisation give a more clear [hint] of what there is to SEE. I'm going to forsake enlightenment until every sentient Thought can join... well,,,, not excactly! close but no cigar. < the every sentient being is all tangled up with this is germane. Immortality Delusion INSISTS there be some [future] great outcome. mathematically impossible. Cross reference with the latest Science measurements that the Universe is decaying. There can't be a [future] nirvanic Conclusion, becuase, then, it would HAVE to exist NOW. How teach this to people?

[rockyysdt]

People tend to want to nail you to something, set you on fire or throw rocks at you when you tell them the truth.

Especially if the Truth is; the Realisation, the understanding, that there is no Enlightenement, no Paradise, no Nirvana. How could anyone, possibly, make money and be Worshipped by explaining the existence of a Heaven couldn't abide, by Design, the existence of a Hell. Hell doesn't abide the existence of a Heaven, that is evident. The reason Buddha never sang and did a dance when he reached Realisation, is because he reached Realisation. Cross Reference with Solomon's words, "Vanity is all, all is Vanity." as in that is ALL folks. Cross reference with Pandora's Box. The last Critter that came out was Hope. Hope is the ONLY true Exctasy and 40 years in a Forest won't change that.

So,,, Budhha's question,,, 'How can I teach this?' is maybe "should I teach this?" eh...

The Bodhivistas, who followed the Buddha path and reached Realisation give a more clear [hint] of what there is to SEE. I'm going to forsake enlightenment until every sentient Thought can join... well,,,, not excactly! close but no cigar. < the every sentient being is all tangled up with this is germane. Immortality Delusion INSISTS there be some [future] great outcome. mathematically impossible. Cross reference with the latest Science measurements that the Universe is decaying. There can't be a [future] nirvanic Conclusion, becuase, then, it would HAVE to exist NOW. How teach this to people?

What's the answer yellow/red?

[Several]

People tend to want to nail you to something, set you on fire or throw rocks at you when you tell them the truth.

Especially if the Truth is; the Realisation, the understanding, that there is no Enlightenement, no Paradise, no Nirvana. How could anyone, possibly, make money and be Worshipped by explaining the existence of a Heaven couldn't abide, by Design, the existence of a Hell. Hell doesn't abide the existence of a Heaven, that is evident. The reason Buddha never sang and did a dance when he reached Realisation, is because he reached Realisation. Cross Reference with Solomon's words, "Vanity is all, all is Vanity." as in that is ALL folks. Cross reference with Pandora's Box. The last Critter that came out was Hope. Hope is the ONLY true Exctasy and 40 years in a Forest won't change that.

So,,, Budhha's question,,, 'How can I teach this?' is maybe "should I teach this?" eh...

The Bodhivistas, who followed the Buddha path and reached Realisation give a more clear [hint] of what there is to SEE. I'm going to forsake enlightenment until every sentient Thought can join... well,,,, not excactly! close but no cigar. < the every sentient being is all tangled up with this is germane. Immortality Delusion INSISTS there be some [future] great outcome. mathematically impossible. Cross reference with the latest Science measurements that the Universe is decaying. There can't be a [future] nirvanic Conclusion, becuase, then, it would HAVE to exist NOW. How teach this to people?

I'll 'ave a go, guvenor. 42. Or, possibly, 46&2. The connection being red & yellow is mentioned in lateralus by Tool, who also did 46&2.

Realisation of no nibbana means also no samsara. Trying to put a cash value to it was not part of the equation.

Heaven and hell are mutually dependant in christian theology. Heaven is pointless without hell. The bible never actually mentions either. Sheol, meaning a pit or hole in the ground is the nearest thing to hell in there.

Buddha touched the earth with his right middle finger in recognition of his attainment. No singing or dancing, correct.

There is absolutely no archaeological evidence for the existence of Solomon or his father David. Not one coin or potsherd. Nil. The story of Solomon is derived from the life of Amenhotep III, Dave was based on Thutmoses IV. All quote attributed to him are fiction.

Hope remained in the box. It requires belief in something. Don't even need to go near a forest to change that. MDMA is also ecstacy.

Buddha questioned peoples ability to understand what he had done. Apparently some people cannot see the wood for the trees. Probably clinging to some logical framework to explain everything in neat mathematical terms whilst convinently ignoring Heisenberg Uncertainty.

The latest scientific measurements do indeed indicate decay. We'll see what they say next week. Stay tuned to the science channel. You'll never guess what they'll do a complete 180 about next!

When is now? What is time? Is it possible enlightenment is beyond this apparent boundary too? The state that defeats death without claiming immortality. The knowing that cannot be expressed with words or numbers. No wonder he doubted peoples ability to comprehend. It is beyond the you who you think you are.

"let go, let go, let go..." (Lateralus. Tool.)