Foreigner Shot Dead In Saraburi

[dude007]

He was shot in the mouth - so close up and personal.

How did you get this information? Is there any picture available from this person?

How frightening....

[Dork]

Seems to be some confusion in the news reports about the victims (estimated) age. From the links so far his age has been variously stated as 30-35, about 40, 40-45 and 45-50.

[moskito]

BTW, just a guess, but since nobody here seems to know him after the pic on page 1, I assume he is not English native...Not many germans here in TV, same goes for the Russians, Italians and Froggis...sry, Frensh.....and I know there are a lot of Farangs in the North and in this area wich are Members of TV Forum, so someone should have realised him.... does nobody miss him????

[Gang Warily]

Crime Statistics > Gun violence > Homicides > % homicides with firearms (most recent) by country

VIEW DATA: Totals Definition Source Printable version Bar Graph Map

Showing latest available data. Rank Countries Amount

# 1 Thailand: 79.5805

Crime in Thailand

# 2 South Africa: 59.2028

Crime in South Africa

# 3 Colombia: 45.2092

Crime in Colombia

# 4 Slovakia: 45

Crime in Slovakia

# 5 Guatemala: 42.0706

Crime in Guatemala

# 6 Zimbabwe: 39.6026

#1 in the world for firearm homicides, and people think I'm crazy for wanting to keep a shotgun inside my home for that freak chance one of these clowns is going to come through the roof at 3am.

This site has been shown many times on Thai Visa to be unreliable with regards to statistics as a lot of the stats didn't add up. For instance they'd show Thailand nearly at the top for gun homicides and then the total number of homicides on another list would be less than the number of gun homicides. Hardly makes sense.

I would more trust the United Nations stats, which you can see here:

http://en.wikipedia....y_homicide_rate

If you look at the table "by country" it shows Thailand

I think any stats will not be fully accurate as some countries keep far more accurate stats than others, for instance the U.S. keeps copious amounts of stats even on the smallest of crimes. But I think this will give some idea. Also I don't know if the UN works to compile their own stats to try and make them as accurate as possible.

The really dangerous places on Earth according to these stats are the countries in South and Central America, the Caribbean, and Africa. For Asian countries, Thailand is listed as one of the more dangerous ones, however, with 4.8 murders per 100,000 inhabitants. USA is at 4.2, so quite similar.

For Thailand's population, that would be over 3000 murders in the most recent year. Hardly the 20K by firearm the nation master stats would have us believe.

As for those who believe Thailand is in some sort of slippery slope into some sort of murderous dystopia, I think it's just and impression based on many factors. One, when people first come to Thailand they think of it as some sort of peaceful paradise where the people are calm buddhists and it's safe to walk around at night. Once you get out of the tourist stage and start seeing the actual violence that does go on all too frequently you notice it more and more and start thinking everything's going to hell, here.

I've talked to people in my country who told me they lived in Thailand 20-30 years ago after I told them I had lived in Thailand. They were telling me how dangerous it was back then and how at least in the region they lived in nobody felt safe and how they were told they should keep guns at their house for protection. They had just arrived in the country and were supposed to run some facility and after receiving several threats on their lives from the Thais who thought they should have been the ones promoted from within to run it this family decided it wasn't worth it and left!

So I don't think it's some sort of new phenomenon, slippery slope going on. By the way, the "slippery slope" is called a logical fallacy for a reason.

Yes, Thailand is a dangerous place. I've been seeing these stories ever since I came here 9 years ago (not long compared to some I know). Well I shouldn't say "here" as I"m not currently in Thailand, ha ha. But anyway, don't panic and and run riot with paranoia. Realize Thailand is one of the more dangerous countries in Asia for murder rates and likely other safety issues like car accidents, etc. but it's not descending into some hellish cesspool. It's especially dangerous for tourists who let their guard down on vacation.

But as for most places, it's unlikely you are going to be murdered or even assaulted by a random person or even some person you piss off. Ya, it happens, but it's pretty unlikely. But if you want to live your lives in fear and paranoia with a "sky is falling" alarmist attitude, then so be it. (this is addressed to everyone, not the person whose post I quoted)

There is no accuracy in how Thailand records its murder statistics. Thousand of people die on Thailand's borders each year of 'heart stopped'. Murder officially runs at about 4 times the UK for a similar sized population. The official statistics are well understated.

[moskito]

Seems to be some confusion in the news reports about the victims (estimated) age. From the links so far his age has been variously stated as 30-35, about 40, 40-45 and 45-50.

I dont know how good you are in guessing the average age of an Asian people...i do good, but I know for the most Thais its pretty difficult to guess how old Farangs are.....makes it not easier when they are dead and laying in the mud somewhere...

[coma]

Just conducted an extensive search of Thai Language news sources and have found no new information to add. Also searched the English 'language' media and found that there are still no news reports on this case what so ever.

I guess it would be safe to say that at this, still early stage, the BIB have no idea of the identity of the deceased or any ideas as to why he has been desposed of in such a brutal manner. Would I be wrong to have thought that if he lived in the Saraburi area , word of a foreigners murder would have spread fast and they would have been able to find somebody to identify the victim by now ?

Are there any members living in the Saraburi area hearing anything from the local population that may provide the forum with some new information ? I recall one poster early after the OP come out posting that he had a feeling that he new the deceased.

[dude007]

Khun XXXX for these asian groups.

Actually, it's "khon XXXX", ( - person) not "khun" and it is usually used in the case where the nationality of the person is known (and considered an important enough detail), so if a "farang" is German, you would say , although for simplicity, farangs are often lumped into the single category .

More often, a nationality is preceded by the word 'chao' (person), as in this case, where the victim is described (in the Thai newspaper Daily News) as:

'farang chao dtang chaat' - 'farang person [from] other country', a somewhat redundant description, perhaps.

Also "farang" is not a right word and full of disdain...

[coma]

Seems to be some confusion in the news reports about the victims (estimated) age. From the links so far his age has been variously stated as 30-35, about 40, 40-45 and 45-50.

Last night as the story came out I heard on the TV news them reporting the age as 30 - 35 whilst reading a report from the Thai Rath they were putting the age as 40 +. Hard for authorities to determine his age when he has no identity on him and his large wounds being facial in nature. I guess at this sate he is thought to be between 30 and 50.

[dude007]

Crime Statistics > Gun violence > Homicides > % homicides with firearms (most recent) by country

VIEW DATA: Totals Definition Source Printable version Bar Graph Map

Showing latest available data. Rank Countries Amount

# 1 Thailand: 79.5805

Crime in Thailand

# 2 South Africa: 59.2028

Crime in South Africa

# 3 Colombia: 45.2092

Crime in Colombia

# 4 Slovakia: 45

Crime in Slovakia

# 5 Guatemala: 42.0706

Crime in Guatemala

# 6 Zimbabwe: 39.6026

#1 in the world for firearm homicides, and people think I'm crazy for wanting to keep a shotgun inside my home for that freak chance one of these clowns is going to come through the roof at 3am.

and then the statistics go up...

[Kaker]

Khun XXXX for these asian groups.

Actually, it's "khon XXXX", ( - person) not "khun" and it is usually used in the case where the nationality of the person is known (and considered an important enough detail), so if a "farang" is German, you would say , although for simplicity, farangs are often lumped into the single category .

More often, a nationality is preceded by the word 'chao' (person), as in this case, where the victim is described (in the Thai newspaper Daily News) as:

'farang chao dtang chaat' - 'farang person [from] other country', a somewhat redundant description, perhaps.

Yes, in the news. People generally don't talk that way though.

BTW, I see now that my previous post seems a bit messed up. There were a bunch of Thai words in there to clarify the difference between "khon" and "khun", as well as "khon Yerman" etc... but Thai characters don't show up on ThaiVisa.com? Seems a bit odd...

EDIT: Just realized that the Thai words were removed by a moderator because they "don't belong in an English language forum". The post was in English, with some Thai words in there for clarification. That seriously violates the rules?

Edited October 1, 2012 by Kaker

[metisdead]

A post discussing moderation issues has been removed as per forum rule 21.

[cougar52]

In the past, shooting someone point blank in the mouth was intended to send a message: Big mouth, talk too much, might have threatened someone, i.e. mouthed off to the wrong person, or may have said he would take the matter to the authorities.

Shooting someone in the mouth is a very personal act and requires effort. It is much easier to shoot someone in the back or the head and to be done with it. There is a message here and I anticipate that as the case develops we will see this demonstrated.

you are right Geriatrick, there are not many reasons for shooting somebody directly in the mouth... Btw... many suicide shooters do it this way...as far as I know atm its not PROOFED yet he was murdered... May be the people trying to hide him was just family found him and dont want to get involved or asked to many questions.... we will hopefully find out sooner or later...or never?

?? Its not proofed yet he was murdered?? earlier post said he was shot in the mouth and 3 shots in the back. Very ambidextrous person to commit suicide by shooting oneself in the mouth then three times in the back.

Edited October 1, 2012 by cougar52

[softgeorge]

Farang who got in the way of a Thai.

When did foreigner mean "falang"

probably the same time as farang means foreigner.

[thequietman]

In the past, shooting someone point blank in the mouth was intended to send a message: Big mouth, talk too much, might have threatened someone, i.e. mouthed off to the wrong person, or may have said he would take the matter to the authorities.

Shooting someone in the mouth is a very personal act and requires effort. It is much easier to shoot someone in the back or the head and to be done with it. There is a message here and I anticipate that as the case develops we will see this demonstrated.

you are right Geriatrick, there are not many reasons for shooting somebody directly in the mouth... Btw... many suicide shooters do it this way...as far as I know atm its not PROOFED yet he was murdered... May be the people trying to hide him was just family found him and dont want to get involved or asked to many questions.... we will hopefully find out sooner or later...or never?

so did he shoot himself 3 times in the back also ? read the post before replying. makes you look less stupid when you respond.

[Baerboxer]

It seems to be every other day these news. A foreigner murdered by a local(which in this case it is not proven, but if it is 'the usual business' , I assume it is the case.)

Very sad the way thailand is going down the drains,also because they rely so much on tourists and foreigners economically.

I once wished to go to thailand to live, but after reading this forum, I would never do it. In fact , I would not even go there on holiday, I think.

It seems like a society gone mentally ill.

On one hand they do anything to appear white, on the other hand there is a real hatred for foreigners.

Now, if i was male, I would NEVER marry a thai, because how can you be really sure?

Don't know what the attitudes towards white females are, but there sure are a lot of attacks on those, too.

Luckily, Asia is large and there are plenty other countries to choose from. As it is now, Thailand would be at the very bottom of my list. Such a beautiful country, but such ugly mentality. Really sad.

What nonsense! Looks like you've made your mind up you don't like Thais or Thailand so presumably you'll be looking for another site to troll on.

[peterpaintpot]

It disappoints me tremendously to read so many posts on TV where people try to push their own agenda, use misleading and/or incomplete statistics, and as to posters that do not read posts carefully before replying - words fail me.

In his autobiography Samuel Langhorne Clemens ( aka Mark Twain ) wrote: There are three kinds of lies: lies: damned lies and statistics. This should warn us all to look carefully at statistics before we believe them unconditionally.

The www.nationmass site states quite clearly that their statistics are more an indication of crime reporting and recording rather than the true rate of crime occurrence. It would be quite useful to compare the rates of murder by gun in the UK and Thailand as their populations are very similar. On the latest list for comparing homicide by gun per 100,000 of population Thailand comes 3rd, (USA=8th with figures that are one tenths of Thailand's) and dangerous UK does not make the top 32 in the world.

UN statistics shew that the latest figures for the UK were 14 homicides by gun in the year (29th of 36th). For Thailand there are no equivalent figures stated but by taken the total homicide figure and multiplying by the percentage that were homicide by gun we get a figure of over 2,500. Allowing for errors we still get a vast inequality between homicide by gun for Thailand and the UK.

Of course things seem to be getting worse, improved faster communications account for this and of course publicise the crimes wideley thus giving ideas to other potential perpetrators.

Anarchy; is our friend who tried to redefine this word still using Samuel Johnson's dictionary? It is true that the root Latin and Greek words meant "without a ruler", but for a long time now it has meant "general lawlessness and disorder" often due to absence or failure of government.

So back to our victim, it is very sad when any life is wasted like this, and we must hope that the criminals are brought to justice, my condolences to any relatives.

Not yet knowing the perpertrators of this crime and where the victim has been living in Thailand we can only speculate, but it has occurred to me that if the executioners had enough savvy they would have dumped the body somewhere not connected to themselves nor the victim.

I myself live in Muak Lek, the next amphoe to Kaen Khoi, I love it here, Muak Lek is a fairly sleepy dairy farming town and I have some good Thai friends here. Having read what others have said about their experiences I am sure that they are all true, but we have to emphasise the good and not dwell on the bad. In the UK it is statistically more likely that you will be killed by gunshot than getting that big lottery win. But they still keep buying lottery tickets!

[NewlyMintedThai]

At the risk of sounding nieve. If he was indeed dragged/carried 80m to a shallow grave there would be forensic evidence everywhere. Hope they get the people that did this.

As for the post from timewilltell.

Quote

Murder should not be added to the list of things a blind eye is turned to.

The murder rate is actually very high in Thailand but it doesn't often involve foreigners.

unlike other countries i.e. Philippines for example the Police will get involved and will likely catch the people that did this.

I've been here 10 years and on the whole feel pretty safe.

Forensic in Thailand, I doubt very much they will be bothered..

I disagree, when foreigners have been killed in the past the Police have investigated and often catch the people responsible. Their motivation might be that it harms tourism but when foreigners are murdered its certainly looked into.

As for forensic science here. They don't have finger printing as far as I know and we can probably rule out DNA. Its basically a one woman band by the name of Pornthip Rojanasunand. She used to be in the papers all the time. haven't seen her face for a few years now.

Still, lets hope they catch the people responsible.

Of course they have fingerprinting here. The fingerprints of every Thai citizen are data based. DNA is also in common use. And Pornthip is far from the only forensic examiner.

This forum would certainly be a lot quieter if only people who knew what they were talking about piped up.

[midasthailand]

.

Let's hope the BIB get to the bottom of this ASAP. I guess English media will be picking up the story when the BIB estabilsh the victims identity.

Excuse me, you know for a fact the victim was English? Or that there are only English foreigners in Thailand?

Of course if you read the whole thread instead of cherry picking, you would find that the gentleman that posted merely omitted the word language after the word English!

[Thai at Heart]

At the risk of sounding nieve. If he was indeed dragged/carried 80m to a shallow grave there would be forensic evidence everywhere. Hope they get the people that did this.

As for the post from timewilltell.

Quote

Murder should not be added to the list of things a blind eye is turned to.

The murder rate is actually very high in Thailand but it doesn't often involve foreigners.

unlike other countries i.e. Philippines for example the Police will get involved and will likely catch the people that did this.

I've been here 10 years and on the whole feel pretty safe.

Forensic in Thailand, I doubt very much they will be bothered..

I disagree, when foreigners have been killed in the past the Police have investigated and often catch the people responsible. Their motivation might be that it harms tourism but when foreigners are murdered its certainly looked into.

As for forensic science here. They don't have finger printing as far as I know and we can probably rule out DNA. Its basically a one woman band by the name of Pornthip Rojanasunand. She used to be in the papers all the time. haven't seen her face for a few years now.

Still, lets hope they catch the people responsible.

Of course they have fingerprinting here. The fingerprints of every Thai citizen are data based. DNA is also in common use. And Pornthip is far from the only forensic examiner.

This forum would certainly be a lot quieter if only people who knew what they were talking about piped up.

Indeed, my missus has a relative who is in the forensics. They were all over the case of the foreigner in Banphai recently, and with a bit of searching of phone records and the such, connected the dots to the wife. Whilst i know they aren't exactly CSI from the TV, they do what they can with what they have in terms of equipment, and this relative of my wife has been to the US several times for training with the US police and also has attended many seminars for training from the US police in Bangkok. They aren't nearly as keystone cops as you may think. The issue comes in terms of how much the very senior bosses of any case want to proceed, and ordinarily when it comes to foreigners it very much depends how much initial publicity occurs, and how much the respective embassy wants to get involved and bring a bit of a beedy eye to proceedings to make sure something keeps moving. You would be amazed how much information they gleen from informants and local gossip, and they basically know who is up to what in any significant way. Problem is, ordinarily the big guys get paid massively to turn a blind eye to so much stuff, that it is basically impossible for an underling to stick their nose into something if the boss doesn't want it to happen, but not all the head coppers are on the take, there are some who are very reliable.

I hear there is a new guy moving down to Chonburi very soon to clean up the Thai and foreign mafia down there. Watch this space, it ain't going to be pretty.

To be perfectly frank, Pornthip covered herself in nothing but doo doo over the bomb detector and her investigations over the police activity in various cases. She is viewed with a lot of distrust by the coppers over her political bias and attitude towards seeking the limelight over issues she has essentially nothing to do with.

[Chads]

Is it me or are stories of this nature getting more frequent.

Thai Society seems to be descending onto a slippery slope with the Rule of Law openly ignored by the rich and influential with them not even bothering any more to try to conceal it. It is almost reverse anarchy where those in power run amok. With role models such as those running the country, the military, the police and just about every other service or agency run by the local or national government, what hope is there that the general low level population will give a dam_n about the law either.

Thais accept so many things in their society now, two faced attitudes, corruption rampant with some reports of 60% of government funded schemes going into the pockets of the politicians and government officials, lousy education and a million other things. Murder should not be added to the list of things a blind eye is turned to. I hope this case is investigated with vigour and vigilance and not just left in a file to gather dust because it earns the police no money.

I hope the family of this man finds closure and him peace. There but for the grace of God go I - I wonder how long His grace will last sometimes.

Are you suggesting a Thai did it? There seems to be plenty of farang on farang violence these days as well if you read the local papers.

Perhaps it was a foreigner. But how much you willing to bet?

Edited October 1, 2012 by Chads

[Tanaka]

Work all your life and end up shoved into a nursing home playing dominoes with senile folk staring out the rain splattered window with mind numbing repeats of come dancing on in the background wondering what your life was really all about.

Alternatively retire here and live life on the edge fully aware that one wrong move, one wrong word, one wrong businesses deal you could end up like this poor bloke shot and dumped on the side of the road like a worthless animal.

rip

Or alternatively, retire somewhere else where one wrong move/word/business deal does not get you murdered in your bed one night by people that you thought you could trust and that are just after your money::-) (I would think there are more than two options here:-)

Of course there are. But could you afford to live there?

[Pui]

At the risk of sounding nieve. If he was indeed dragged/carried 80m to a shallow grave there would be forensic evidence everywhere. Hope they get the people that did this.

As for the post from timewilltell.

Quote

Murder should not be added to the list of things a blind eye is turned to.

The murder rate is actually very high in Thailand but it doesn't often involve foreigners.

unlike other countries i.e. Philippines for example the Police will get involved and will likely catch the people that did this.

I've been here 10 years and on the whole feel pretty safe.

Forensic in Thailand, I doubt very much they will be bothered..

I disagree, when foreigners have been killed in the past the Police have investigated and often catch the people responsible. Their motivation might be that it harms tourism but when foreigners are murdered its certainly looked into.

As for forensic science here. They don't have finger printing as far as I know and we can probably rule out DNA. Its basically a one woman band by the name of Pornthip Rojanasunand. She used to be in the papers all the time. haven't seen her face for a few years now.

Still, lets hope they catch the people responsible.

Of course they have fingerprinting here. The fingerprints of every Thai citizen are data based. DNA is also in common use. And Pornthip is far from the only forensic examiner.

This forum would certainly be a lot quieter if only people who knew what they were talking about piped up.

"The fingerprints of every Thai citizen are data based."

I find it hard to believe the government have the finger prints of every Thai citizen. Even half would be impressive. Where do you get this stuff?

The forensic department here nothing like what we have in the west and is very under funded. Yes I'm sure there are more than just Pornthip. A very respectable Lady who has done a lot to try and challenge corruption in there past.

DNA again is nothing like what it is in the west and scenes of crime have no training in how to deal with a situation. The Police disturb scenes of crime thats evident from the picture. I don't see white boiler suits or even gloves being warn.

Next time I've got an opinion and feel like "pipping in" on this matter should I run it past you?

This is a horrendous crime and I hope they catch these individuals. responsible.

[hansnl]

Farang who got in the way of a Thai.

When did foreigner mean "falang"

Ferenghi means Frank

Name given to the "Franks" by the Arabs.

Indeed, Farang is a denigrating word.

[moskito]

In the past, shooting someone point blank in the mouth was intended to send a message: Big mouth, talk too much, might have threatened someone, i.e. mouthed off to the wrong person, or may have said he would take the matter to the authorities.

Shooting someone in the mouth is a very personal act and requires effort. It is much easier to shoot someone in the back or the head and to be done with it. There is a message here and I anticipate that as the case develops we will see this demonstrated.

you are right Geriatrick, there are not many reasons for shooting somebody directly in the mouth... Btw... many suicide shooters do it this way...as far as I know atm its not PROOFED yet he was murdered... May be the people trying to hide him was just family found him and dont want to get involved or asked to many questions.... we will hopefully find out sooner or later...or never?

?? Its not proofed yet he was murdered?? earlier post said he was shot in the mouth and 3 shots in the back. Very ambidextrous person to commit suicide by shooting oneself in the mouth then three times in the back.

wow, 3 in the back? I guess i missed something here... ok, if it was like you said, it is indeed a little bit more difficult to explain suicide here (: i read only about 1 in the mouth and thats very common in suicides with guns...specially long weapons ...like a Tank or an Artillery tool ...dammit you know what i mean....dont know any other word as long weapon atm

[jornjat]

from the picture. I don't see white boiler suits or even gloves being warn.

Well, I DO see at least gloves being wOrn... (thairath pic)

[simple1]

@pui - "They don't have finger printing as far as I know" have you ever been to an Amphur or police station? Amphur's use finger print technology for illiterate Thais who cannot sign their names. Thai's when arrested and charged by the police are fingerprinted, same as in the West. Also you should check out the URL below that talks to Thai acquisition and implementation of leading edge DNA technology for crime scene investigations. A component of the project is collecting DNA from all prisoners upon completion of their sentence. As you said, quality of forensics investigations is the question mark.

http://www.limsfinde...id=1002_0_3_0_C

Edited October 1, 2012 by simple1

[Jim walker]

Forensic in Thailand, is that the police man who pokes around with the stick he carries under his arm

[midasthailand]

In the past, shooting someone point blank in the mouth was intended to send a message: Big mouth, talk too much, might have threatened someone, i.e. mouthed off to the wrong person, or may have said he would take the matter to the authorities.

Shooting someone in the mouth is a very personal act and requires effort. It is much easier to shoot someone in the back or the head and to be done with it. There is a message here and I anticipate that as the case develops we will see this demonstrated.

you are right Geriatrick, there are not many reasons for shooting somebody directly in the mouth... Btw... many suicide shooters do it this way...as far as I know atm its not PROOFED yet he was murdered... May be the people trying to hide him was just family found him and dont want to get involved or asked to many questions.... we will hopefully find out sooner or later...or never?

?? Its not proofed yet he was murdered?? earlier post said he was shot in the mouth and 3 shots in the back. Very ambidextrous person to commit suicide by shooting oneself in the mouth then three times in the back.

wow, 3 in the back? I guess i missed something here... ok, if it was like you said, it is indeed a little bit more difficult to explain suicide here (: i read only about 1 in the mouth and thats very common in suicides with guns...specially long weapons ...like a Tank or an Artillery tool ...dammit you know what i mean....dont know any other word as long weapon atm

Errrr........rifle, shotgun??

[NewlyMintedThai]

"The fingerprints of every Thai citizen are data based."

I find it hard to believe the government have the finger prints of every Thai citizen. Even half would be impressive. Where do you get this stuff?

Every Thai who has an ID card has his fingerprints in the system. The only ones who don't are kids who don't yet have their ID cards.

If you have knowledge otherwise, please correct me.

[Arkady]

My regrets to those who knew him and were related to him

I mean no disrespect but I honestly feel the following.

Great just what we need in Chiang Mai. We already have a thread going for getting and carrying a concealed gun for Farongs.

The first time I opened this thread an ad popped up for getting concealed carry permits right below the picture of the body.