Cultural Diversity

[kat]

No, I'm not asleep at all. I enjoy having someone around who can directly challenge me on these issues. I can't respond in full right now, because I'm late for an appointment.

I'll respond briefly to a few things:

Yes, Indians are Asians, as well as Pakistanis, Tajikistan, and the rest of Central and Southern Asia. *Russia is also geographicall a part of Asia, but more culturally and historically linked to Western culture, as is Eastern Europe. Europe and Asia share one continent and are divided by the Ural Mountains, but we all know the difference between Europe and Asia. Of course, there are differences among Russia and Western countries due to the course of history and the split in the Christian Church, and some things will be more prominent in some areas more than others; but one big factor in Western culture is that the concepts of equality and human rights are a value, even in their abscence. Equality is not a value of Asian cultures, and this is apparent in the religous and philosophical beliefs that grew out of those cultures. In the case of Islam, equality was stressed as an important tenet in SEA precisely because of its reaction to the caste system, and to a lesser degree, the explanation of Karma in the role of a softer caste system.

Indians are South Asians, who were influenced by the Aryans of Central Asia, then influenced Southeast Asians in religion and culture, although SEA are loathe to admit this fact. I'm not sure about the concept of face in Indian culture, although I do know about the concept of CASTE, which would pretty much take care of a lot of the face issues. I think the face issue as we are discussing here is more of a direct cultural trait of East Asia and some of SEA, to varying degrees. Of course, China was also a major influence, in terms of the earliest and later migrations, and it's own philosophical beliefs such as Confucianism, Taoism, and family-centered dynasties, or nepotism.

I appreciate your long description of face and its different situational contexts, but one thing that is common is that you cannot question an elder person, either in age or rank. This is one of the fundamental drawbacks I was discussing.

Anyway, this is quick and sloppy. I gotta go now. Talk to you next time.

*However, I'm well aware of indigenous Asians of Siberia, as well as the indigenous populations of the Americas, New Zealand, Australia, Hawaii et al. Right now I'm discussing the state or "invading" culture of these countries.

Edited February 3, 2006 by kat

[Ulysses G.]

Very well put!

I fail to understand why there are, apparently, so many members living in Thailand who deride much about it's culture and customs. Some posts leave me wondering why these folk don't just pack up and go back whence they came.

There's much for a Westerner to learn and understand and it can be frustrating at times. However, if we take the trouble, life there can be enjoyable and rewarding. Most Thais may still be materially poor but they are rich in values that are becoming lost to the West and we can gain much if we make the effort. Thailand is a real place with real people, not a cheap playground for foreigners with some money.

There is, I fear, a real possibility that Thais, in pursuit of their desire for Western lifestyles, will make the same mistake as the West and lose sight of their traditional values. That would be a great pity and a disappointment to the foreigners who do enjoy what Thailand has to offer.

What values are you talking about? I see Thailand more like a carnival country with little or no value system.

People go to Thailand because it is cheap with warm weather. In the summer months most western people do not go to Thailand as Thailand has so little to offer.

If you have very little money and limited intellectual curiosity Thailand is a good option IMHO.Nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.

You do indeed seem to hate Thailand. Almost every single post is filled with bitter contempt.

However, you certainly don't come off as any better then anyone else here on any level.

I don't know how much "money" he has, but someone like chownah - who lives here all of the time - seems to be filled with "intellectual curiousity" and the wisdom to go with it. Maybe you should give his posts a good look?

[Mobi]

If you have very little money and limited intellectual curiosity Thailand is a good option IMHO.Nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.

You do indeed seem to hate Thailand. Almost every single post is filled with bitter contempt.

However, you certainly don't come off as any better then anyone else here on any level.

I don't know how much "money" he has, but someone like chownah - who lives here all of the time - seems to be filled with "intellectual curiousity" and the wisdom to go with it. Maybe you should give his posts a good look?

Very interesting thread – all the more so because I have found very little understanding of the true situation here, and indeed our part in it. I’m just a simple Joe, and I don’t know much more than the next guy, but I have been coming to Thailand for over 30 years, have worked here, have married here (many times), have been stony broke here, have been ripped off, cheated and fed to the dogs, have been in jail, have lived with Thais in poor communities, middle class communities, and even in rich communities. I speak passable Thai, and have travelled extensively. Nowadays I am retired and live here quite comfortably. Of course there is culture in Thailand, a very rich and diverse culture; from the Muslim south to the Issan North east to the hill tribes of the North and so much in between. The literature, poetry, music, dancing, art and religion is literally drenched in more culture than most of us from the west can dream about. Has anyone been to Ayudhaya lately? That’s a history book in itself. And the Thais? As with every nation there are good, bad and much in between. Thais can be very kind, generous and compassionate; they have strong family values and generally take more responsibility for their kin than most westerners. So what are all the farangs complaining about? We complain because there are huge injustices here. The country has been raped, raped again and raped yet again by the venal, money grabbing and uncaring immoral governments and dictators who have controlled this country for more years than I have been coming here. Whatever problems we have with the Thais is all down to the totally corrupt leaders who have run roughshod the Thai’s culture and way of life for decades: be it lack of proper education, active encouragement of xenophobia (all foreigners are wicked), instilling corruption as a way of life…. Need I go on? Is it any wonder the poor Thais don’t know whether they are going or coming – a majority of the population never even reads a newspaper – let alone a book? All they have is government run television and radio. Its dark ages stuff and happening here and now, under our noses. So don’t blame the poor muts who might learn how to rip off a farang, or the bad service or the corrupt police. Blame those bastards at the top of the pile who will never let go. And, my fellow farangs, please keep complaining – it may do some good, some time, somehow……

But I'm just a simple Joe. What doI know?

[thaibebop]

I agree with the OP, however, and forgive me if someone said this, I feel that singling out western people to practice such concepts is in itself defeating these concepts. Every culture should be mindful of other cultures, not just us from the west.

Quite right - and current events in the Middle East serve to show what damage can be done by a lack of tolerance and understanding on all sides. However, I think that the OP was concerned in this instance only with Thailand and the difficulty that some tv members seem to have in accepting that they live in a culture other than the Western one in which they were brought up. The fact is that Thailand does not need to change its ways to accommodate foreign values, or rather the foreign values of a few who don't like it. So, like it or lump it, take it or leave it, 'This Is Thailand'.

I regret signs that Thais will make the same mistakes as the West in their rush for material gain. I meet some very happy poor people in Thailand and some rather miserable wealthier ones in the UK and elsewhere.

If Thailand doesn't want to make any economic progress and wants to culturally stagnate then there is no need to change to accomodate foreign values. It is impossible for any country or culture anywhere to stay the same. Thailand is changing anyway regardless of whether people like it or not. The "this is Thailand" attitude might serve well if you are living here as an individual who happens to be a foreigner but it has very serious consequences for the Thai people themselves. Acceptance of outdated and counter-productive systems causes no end of problems for this country. It is obviously totally up to them but Thailand is changing to include foreign customs and values anyway so they would do well to make an active choice about which ones they want and which they don't.

You have a point, however, I think adopting systems that work better are all that is required. They don't need to adopt our values.

[jamman]

I think I just have a different definition of "respect" than you are using, and am not getting your point. To me, people can be respected but not ideas/beliefs...

To try to be concrete: let's say that you and I have differing views on science or spirituality. We could respect each other as individuals with free will and personally held beliefs, but if we really have contradictory beliefs, we cannot "respect" (accept as true) the other person's belief...

Also, we cannot truly separate our behavior from others as long as we live in a closed system. The only way you can truly be responsible to your own behavior and tolerate all other's behavior is if you are an anarcho-capitalist who really thinks might makes right and you get whatever you get. As soon as you accept some responsibility to prevent "bad" actions by others, you have put limits on others' freedoms, and limits to how you will allow them to live their lives.

I think an extremist is just someone who has a set of core beliefs that is "too different" (whether too permissive or too restrictive) for most of us to accept as societal rules, and he believes all people should live by them. To have a stable and diverse society, we must accept a common core set of rights and responsibilities while tolerating differences which do not violate those core rights and responsibilities. The less diversity we seek to embrace, the less we have to worry about distinguishing the core beliefs from those where one is free to differ.

Really well thought out and communicated! The last paragraph about extremism is interesting, and I think would be informed by qualifying that different belief systems can be organized developmentally, that is, there is a linear development possible in types of thought. In morals, for example, we start out as pre-moral, where a person doesn't give a flyin F what anyone else thinks and acts for selfish aims, and some can develop group morals, where a person follows laws and rules because rules are rules, and a few go further to examine their beliefs and decide for themself to do the right thing, even if that goes against the larger societies or families rules. So pre-moral and post-moral both can look amoral, but the latter is a developmental stage that only ever happens after learning to follow rules. There is always a linear progression through the stages, and so we can show a hierarchy of development. So sometimes a government can drag society up to higher developmental possibilities by imposing laws based on a higher moral or other development, such as enshrining into law equal rights protections. If we had to just rely on concensus to decide what was appropriate core rights, we'd have no tools to distinguish wheter stoning women for adultery and female circumsision were as equally valid as respecting individual sexual freedoms, other than to rely on cultural norms.

[jamman]

>In the West, most (not all) can admit their mistakes and learn from them, and accept if they are wrong.

>We call it maturity.

>>..Are you denying that part of face in Asian culture means not admitting you are wrong, and that this is a demonstrated weakness in the development of these societies? [/i]

>>>... Probably not. The morally self-righteous tend to speak well of diversity only when it diversifies in a direction they endorse as socially commendable. That's why the I-am-more-Thai-than-thou crowd keep coming out with lame-brained lines like: 'Why don't these people just pack up aand go back whence they came?'

>> ...or did all moral corruption supposedly stem from the West -- give me a break.

>>...Precisely. I came to this forum when I found out I could not have an honest, critical, political discussion with the majority of even educated Thais, as I could with almost anyone else, from anywhere else.[/i]

) Yeah, but do you really understand that intolerance IS a cultural trait and IS part of the diversity of cultures that you are exalting?

----------------

Not much to add - just that I enjoyed especially the comments above. It's a catch 22, though, isn't it? You can't talk to someone about your frustration with their not being able to receive critisism or have a critical discussion, because that would be being critical. I've found that with some people, no matter how gently and diplomatically you cusion your words, their defenses are impenetrable. Nothing for it but to just give up, sometimes, and that is heartbreaking. You can't get there from here, and some people really, REALLY, don't want to get there.

Edited February 3, 2006 by jamman

[suegha]

...

You have the right to be treated with respect. You have the right to have and to hold different ideas and opinions to other pepole and to have those different ideas and beliefs repected.

You see, I disagree with the statement:

" This difference between tolerance and acceptance is what separates the moderates from the extremists."

I don't think that toleration or acceptance is what separates the moderates from the extremists, this is, in my opinion, way too simple an explanation.

...

To imagine "respecting an idea", I have to mentally redefine respect as "accept". However, to respect the person, I merely have to tolerate the presence of his ideas, i.e. accept that his may differ from mine. I do not have to accept these ideas as true.

...but if we really have contradictory beliefs, we cannot "respect" (accept as true) the other person's belief.

Also, we cannot truly separate our behavior from others as long as we live in a closed system.

I think an extremist is just someone who has a set of core beliefs that is "too different" (whether too permissive or too restrictive) for most of us to accept as societal rules, and he believes all people should live by them. To have a stable and diverse society, we must accept a common core set of rights and responsibilities while tolerating differences which do not violate those core rights and responsibilities. The less diversity we seek to embrace, the less we have to worry about distinguishing the core beliefs from those where one is free to differ.

Some very good points made here. However, there is one major difference of semantics. I do not define 'respect' as accepting - quite the opposite! On the issue of behaviour, good point, and it recognises the major point about behaviour, it's 'reflective'. Something we should always be aware of.

Excellent point also about 'societal' rules, as it's easy to feign respect when it's societal or even legal matter, well done.

However, let me give you a very personal example. I am a bible reading, bible believing Christian. In the course of my everyday life I meet mostly the opposite. People who are atheist, agnostic, other religions, etc, etc. I can, however, 'respect' their differences - it's their right! I also prefer it when they respect my differences. But if they don't, this will not deter me in my respect for their beliefs. Does this make sense? I hope it does...

[Morden]

Very well put!

I fail to understand why there are, apparently, so many members living in Thailand who deride much about it's culture and customs. Some posts leave me wondering why these folk don't just pack up and go back whence they came.

There's much for a Westerner to learn and understand and it can be frustrating at times. However, if we take the trouble, life there can be enjoyable and rewarding. Most Thais may still be materially poor but they are rich in values that are becoming lost to the West and we can gain much if we make the effort. Thailand is a real place with real people, not a cheap playground for foreigners with some money.

There is, I fear, a real possibility that Thais, in pursuit of their desire for Western lifestyles, will make the same mistake as the West and lose sight of their traditional values. That would be a great pity and a disappointment to the foreigners who do enjoy what Thailand has to offer.

What values are you talking about? I see Thailand more like a carnival country with little or no value system.

People go to Thailand because it is cheap with warm weather. In the summer months most western people do not go to Thailand as Thailand has so little to offer.

If you have very little money and limited intellectual curiosity Thailand is a good option IMHO.

Nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.

I'd like to answer your question but the rest of what you have written suggests that you don't want to know. If you prefer to see Thailand as no more than a candy floss funfare I think that's very sad but it's your choice. What Thailand has to offer is not determined by how much money one has, unless one can't see beyond one's pocket. If you cannot yet see anything to satisfy 'intellectual curiousity' but are prepared to change your view, have a look at some of the more thoughtful threads in this Forum for a start and then go and have a proper look at the country for yourself - try going in the summer, there's a lot going on.

[Jim 50]

Very well put!

I fail to understand why there are, apparently, so many members living in Thailand who deride much about it's culture and customs. Some posts leave me wondering why these folk don't just pack up and go back whence they came.

There's much for a Westerner to learn and understand and it can be frustrating at times. However, if we take the trouble, life there can be enjoyable and rewarding. Most Thais may still be materially poor but they are rich in values that are becoming lost to the West and we can gain much if we make the effort. Thailand is a real place with real people, not a cheap playground for foreigners with some money.

There is, I fear, a real possibility that Thais, in pursuit of their desire for Western lifestyles, will make the same mistake as the West and lose sight of their traditional values. That would be a great pity and a disappointment to the foreigners who do enjoy what Thailand has to offer.

What values are you talking about? I see Thailand more like a carnival country with little or no value system.

People go to Thailand because it is cheap with warm weather. In the summer months most western people do not go to Thailand as Thailand has so little to offer.

If you have very little money and limited intellectual curiosity Thailand is a good option IMHO.Nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.

You do indeed seem to hate Thailand. Almost every single post is filled with bitter contempt.

However, you certainly don't come off as any better then anyone else here on any level.

I don't know how much "money" he has, but someone like chownah - who lives here all of the time - seems to be filled with "intellectual curiousity" and the wisdom to go with it. Maybe you should give his posts a good look?

Contempt? Just my observation the value system is amuck in Thailand IMO. Thailand has the highest percentage of the population involved in prostitution of any country. I am not blaming them, it is just a fact. Whenever you have the most of something you can be sure it is precipitated by some other excess or deficit and other extremes will ride along. IMO it is the low value system.

Why is your opinion better than mine?

[Tippaporn]

Contempt? Just my observation the value system is amuck in Thailand IMO. Thailand has the highest percentage of the population involved in prostitution of any country. I am not blaming them, it is just a fact. Whenever you have the most of something you can be sure it is precipitated by some other excess or deficit and other extremes will ride along. IMO it is the low value system.

Why is your opinion better than mine?

Seeing as how you left the door open I'll answer that one.

One opinion produces happiness and the other produces much less than happiness. That's the only difference. Both are equally true - but if you understood that life is about happiness you'd be looking for anything and everything to appreciate rather than looking for whatever flaws exist. Flaws are never-ending. So are good things. Up to you.

[Donz]

whinging whinging whinging, thats all i ever hear.

[skylar]

Whinging is okay. We all like and dislike different things about Thailand, and sometimes people have to vent. So vent away.

[phibunmike]

I think that the challenge of multiculturalism is to find as much common ground as possible before beginning the process of elimination of practices that simply will not be tolerated by the majority any more. This *will* be a prejudicial and contingent process- there will be no way to "prove" that women should not be stoned for committing adultery, or that prisoners should not be tortured or held without due process or trial. However, these activities will eventually be suppressed and criminalised, even among the barbaric countries which still practice them now. In saying "barbaric," I am making a values statement which is contingent on my own beliefs- and there is no way to prove that I am right- but I think I can live with that.

"Steven"

This is a great thread - it's nice to see some reasoned thinking instead of emotional flaming. Thanks Kat, Steve, Morden and many others for a great read

Steve makes a very good point - we (humanity) try to find a "universal declaration of human rights" but there can be no objective set of such rights - in the end, what we select as those "rights" are a result of our hegemony. When the west was all-powerful, these beliefs could be imposed on others, thus re-enforcing the west's concept that they really were right. Now those beliefs are being challenged by increasingly strong groups with other ideas - Islamists, Chinese, etc. - who have a different set of postulates. And we don't have to look for extreme examples or "very foreign" views: Lee Kuan Yew said something to the effect of "I don't believe the western democratic model is the most appropriate for us (Singapore)".

Even if we can have a set of internationally acceptable human rights, we don't have to go as far as one poster and say that we must therefore accept Nazism. There is a clause in there somewhere that says "... as long as it doesn't impinge on the rights of others". Human rights are not a free-for-all, and come with responisbility, as pointed out by someone earlier.

As for Jim 50, all I can say is how sad that you seem to miss 90% of what Thailand has to offer. Just one point with your regard to prostitution arising from a low value system. (And I don't want to divert this thread onto prostitution, but I think this is a very relevant example of misunderstanding different belief systems). I know a couple of prostitutes from my village (they work in Bangkok). They criticise the low moral standards of western women who "<deleted> for free or for fun" (outside marriage); this they contrast to prostitues who they say do it to support their families, and are therefore justified. If you said to them that they had low morals, they would agree they "do no good" but the benefit they provide their families outweighs the negative, and it is just their lot in life - they would be offended by the accusation of low morals.

Personally, I often feel rather humble next to the culture and standards of my Isaan family and friends, and try to learn from them. Having said that, there are of course also some aspects which I find diagreeable to say the least.

[Jim 50]

Contempt? Just my observation the value system is amuck in Thailand IMO. Thailand has the highest percentage of the population involved in prostitution of any country. I am not blaming them, it is just a fact. Whenever you have the most of something you can be sure it is precipitated by some other excess or deficit and other extremes will ride along. IMO it is the low value system.

Why is your opinion better than mine?

Seeing as how you left the door open I'll answer that one.

One opinion produces happiness and the other produces much less than happiness. That's the only difference. Both are equally true - but if you understood that life is about happiness you'd be looking for anything and everything to appreciate rather than looking for whatever flaws exist. Flaws are never-ending. So are good things. Up to you.

What you are saying an opinion based on input / observations is not as good as an "opinion" based on the desired output of happiness. For sure that is a different way of looking at things than.

[jbowman1993]

Glad people resurrected this thread. It has stayed close to my heart and my thoughts for quite a while.

I think it is human nature to want to better yourself, and hope to better the place that you live, as well. But lets also remember that actions speak louder, and last longer, than words. I like to ask myself, "What am I actually doing to make my community a better place? Besides bitching on an expat forum, lol."

Recognizing differences is the first step in cultural understanding and acceptance. I hope that the way I live my life makes my community a better place for others.

[Tippaporn]

Contempt? Just my observation the value system is amuck in Thailand IMO. Thailand has the highest percentage of the population involved in prostitution of any country. I am not blaming them, it is just a fact. Whenever you have the most of something you can be sure it is precipitated by some other excess or deficit and other extremes will ride along. IMO it is the low value system.

Why is your opinion better than mine?

Seeing as how you left the door open I'll answer that one.

One opinion produces happiness and the other produces much less than happiness. That's the only difference. Both are equally true - but if you understood that life is about happiness you'd be looking for anything and everything to appreciate rather than looking for whatever flaws exist. Flaws are never-ending. So are good things. Up to you.

What you are saying an opinion based on input / observations is not as good as an "opinion" based on the desired output of happiness. For sure that is a different way of looking at things than.

An opinion is simply an opinion; neither right nor wrong it simply exists. Doesn't matter what it's basis is. The only matter of importance is what the opinion produces within yourself - happiness or not. Choose what you will but you will reap the product. Kow jai mai khrup?

[Jim 50]

Contempt? Just my observation the value system is amuck in Thailand IMO. Thailand has the highest percentage of the population involved in prostitution of any country. I am not blaming them, it is just a fact. Whenever you have the most of something you can be sure it is precipitated by some other excess or deficit and other extremes will ride along. IMO it is the low value system.

Why is your opinion better than mine?

Seeing as how you left the door open I'll answer that one.

One opinion produces happiness and the other produces much less than happiness. That's the only difference. Both are equally true - but if you understood that life is about happiness you'd be looking for anything and everything to appreciate rather than looking for whatever flaws exist. Flaws are never-ending. So are good things. Up to you.

What you are saying an opinion based on input / observations is not as good as an "opinion" based on the desired output of happiness. For sure that is a different way of looking at things than.

An opinion is simply an opinion; neither right nor wrong it simply exists. Doesn't matter what it's basis is. The only matter of importance is what the opinion produces within yourself - happiness or not. Choose what you will but you will reap the product. Kow jai mai khrup?

Thai logic

[jbowman1993]

[meadish_sweetball]

I've found that with some people, no matter how gently and diplomatically you cusion your words, their defenses are impenetrable. Nothing for it but to just give up, sometimes, and that is heartbreaking. You can't get there from here, and some people really, REALLY, don't want to get there.

You must have been debating with BoonMee lately.

[Arsenal]

I have a theory on guys like Jim50 who make observations on Thailand that others regard as negative.People like Jim are driven to distraction by the slack jawed reformed former tourists now "residents" who prattle on about the joys of Thai culture in such a ignorant and irritating way.This drives some observers of this rabble to make statements more critical of the country than they really mean, perhaps resenting hearing an uneducated parody of their own affection for Thailand and the Thai people.

[Donz]

some people need to sit back, have a beer and chill the ###### out.

[David Duke]

I'm chilling

[mbkudu]

I've found that with some people, no matter how gently and diplomatically you cusion your words, their defenses are impenetrable. Nothing for it but to just give up, sometimes, and that is heartbreaking. You can't get there from here, and some people really, REALLY, don't want to get there.

You must have been debating with BoonMee lately.

If the President of the USA, the vice president, his Republican cabinet, the Rupublican Senators, Republican congressman and all other Republican politicians all turned into heroine junkies, pedos, thieves (well most of them are anyway) and sadomites over night, he would still vote all of them back in. . God forbid that they turn liberal though.

[jbowman1993]

Bump

[qwertz]

I have a theory on guys like Jim50 who make observations on Thailand that others regard as negative.People like Jim are driven to distraction by the slack jawed reformed former tourists now "residents" who prattle on about the joys of Thai culture in such a ignorant and irritating way.This drives some observers of this rabble to make statements more critical of the country than they really mean, perhaps resenting hearing an uneducated parody of their own affection for Thailand and the Thai people.

So, you know some too!

[qwertz]

Glad people resurrected this thread. It has stayed close to my heart and my thoughts for quite a while.

I think it is human nature to want to better yourself, and hope to better the place that you live, as well. But lets also remember that actions speak louder, and last longer, than words. I like to ask myself, "What am I actually doing to make my community a better place? Besides bitching on an expat forum, lol."

Recognizing differences is the first step in cultural understanding and acceptance. I hope that the way I live my life makes my community a better place for others.

Well said, sir. As for me. I would never again stay for long in LOS as I did previously, although I love it. I appreciate foreign cultures but I can't pretend to know them, I just try to understand and respect them. There is so much time spent Thai/expat/tourist bashing on these forums when, if we cared to admit it, we all go there or live there because, despite the little annoyances, it's still better than whatever we left behind us. And, best of all, just because we still can. I'll be tottering across there for as long as my frail legs can carry me.