Income Requirements - Or Is It Expenditure? Retirement Visa

[chuckles]

I have lived in the kingdom for nearly 4 years. No problems with annual extension of retirement visa until last week.

I moved to another province just under a year ago and have nothing but praise for the office dealing with my 90 day reports for the last year.

When it came to renewal the officer asked to see supporting documentation for my UK Embassy letter. I provided two pension letters, and was then asked for my Thai bank passbook,

After looking at it for a while she said I needed to show account activity amounting to the 65k income limit. I said, politely, that I was not aware of the requrement to spend the income limit, just to provide proof of income.

She discussed this with a senior colleague and said they would not insist on this renewal, but next year I would need to show account activity for 65k.

As I live in the sticks and my Thai gitlfriend has her own income, I would struggle to spend half that amount, so I see problems ahead.

This took place at Suratthani office.

[Mario2008]

There is no requirement to actulaly spend the money, only that you earn it (and that doesn't have to be in Thailand or even be brought into Thailand.

A lot of offices do request to see a bankbook with some activity in it, to see you have money to spend. But there is no fixed ammunt for that, normally I make sure I have at least 20,000 in my Thai bank account when the time comes to extend, and that is it.

[Pormax]

I Think Mario 2008 has said it all really. No need to show that you have sent the money to Thailand all you are required to do is show that you have the required amount coming in from your pensions.

Unfortunately as documented so well on previous posts some immigration offices either do not understand the rules or make up their own. Can be very frustrating and annoying.

[davejones]

So how can the OP sort this out if his immigration office want proof of spending money? Is there an appeal process?

[Mario2008]

So how can the OP sort this out if his immigration office want proof of spending money? Is there an appeal process?

yes, there is.

In the first place when you have a problem about the interpretation of immigration rules you can ask to speak with a superior. If that doesn't solve it, you can always contact the immirgation hotline through 1111 (government information line or 1178 (immigration directly). They can answer any immigration question, will lookk into things and call you back and also cn contact an immigration office for clarifiction. If need be they will instruct an immigration office on how to handle a case.

Secondly you always have the right if a application has been turned down to file an appeal with a superior officer, which will handle the case in 1 week.

Now is losing face in Thailand lways important, so never go in with blazing guns, remain calm and friendly.

This case might also be a about not losing face. There are a lot of new immirgation officers. The officer was wrong, but might have been saved face by the superior telling they would allow it this time. Next year this "requirement" might never be mentioned again.

[NancyL]

I use the 800,000 baht Thai bank account method to justify my retirement extension. The funds were deposited when we entered Thailand and the account hasn't been touched for years, except for annual updates prior to doing my visa extension.

One year they asked what I used for expenses since I never touched the money. I pulled out the joint passbook of Hubby and me, saying Hubby has sufficient pension income to support both of us. I offered to show the bankbook to the officer, but he just waved it away.

I think he was mainly just checking that I wasn't working illegally with a retirement extension. For the OP, he has a true story in saying his wife works & her income is sufficient to support both of you. Perhaps would be a good idea to bring some evidence of her spending money to support the household.

(Really, it might be very difficult for even two people to spend 65,000 baht/month living in the sticks, especially if they don't have to make rent payments)

[chuckles]

Many thanks for the responses. The officer concerned is the same one I have seen before for 90 day reporting and she is not a junior or newbie. Other workers often interupt her to answer queries or sign off on stuff, so she appears quite senior.

When I questioned the insistence on actually showing 65k per month activity in my pass book, I was told it is the office commanders policy to insist on it. Like the replies above, I feel this is incorrect but I am not going to repeatedly question an officer who seems fairly senior, so it is helful to know there is an appeals system.

Based on that, I am going to let sleeping dogs lie, and if I have a problem next year I will politely request confirmation of policy from a senior officer followed by an appeal if necessary.

Thanks again to all concerned.

PS I'm sure I'm not the only one who would feel comfortable leaving 800k in a Thai bank account with no security guarantee. It might be small change to some but to me, it's still a fair chunk of cash.

[Jingthing]

This is a localized enforcement policy at one office situation which of course could happen at other offices as well.

For clarification I think it can't be emphasized enough that for those using an INCOME method for retirement extensions, there is no actual written requirement to:

Import ANY of the claimed income into Thailand

Spend ANY of the claimed income in Thailand

That said, it is not news that some offices/officers may want to see some evidence of the claimed income in addition to the embassy letters and they have every right to ask for additional documentation even if they are asking for something that is not explicitly implied in the official rules that you should need. Showing money flows is a way of showing evidence. So the best retirees here can do is figure out what their local office needs and comply with it if you can. For example, maybe they want to see the income flow into a Thai bank account. Find out if just showing some months of that before the application would be OK or if they really need to see that for EVERY month.

Similarly for the bank account method, yes the balance needs to be shown in Thailand, but there is no annual requirement to import even one baht or spend even one baht in Thailand.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Jingthing

[chuckles]

evidence of her spending money

For some reason I found that part of your comment really funny. Thanks.

[pisico]

So how can the OP sort this out if his immigration office want proof of spending money? Is there an appeal process?

yes, there is.

In the first place when you have a problem about the interpretation of immigration rules you can ask to speak with a superior. If that doesn't solve it, you can always contact the immirgation hotline through 1111 (government information line or 1178 (immigration directly). They can answer any immigration question, will lookk into things and call you back and also cn contact an immigration office for clarifiction. If need be they will instruct an immigration office on how to handle a case.

Secondly you always have the right if a application has been turned down to file an appeal with a superior officer, which will handle the case in 1 week.

Now is losing face in Thailand lways important, so never go in with blazing guns, remain calm and friendly.

This case might also be a about not losing face. There are a lot of new immirgation officers. The officer was wrong, but might have been saved face by the superior telling they would allow it this time. Next year this "requirement" might never be mentioned again.

Sound advice. Once I wanted to clarify a point with and Immigration officer and my Thai girlfriend wisely said: "do not say everything."

She was right. She knew well the save face importance in Thai culture. I kept my mouth shut and it was as if the glitch I tried to address earlier had never been mentioned.

With Immigration, the farther in the sticks one is, it can get very tricky or very easy.

[OJAS]

The OP is truly a lucky individual indeed if he has a Thai partner who imposes no financial burdens on him!

Seriously though, I really do wonder whether the most practical solution to his predicament would be to start making regular monthly transfers from the UK equal to 65,000 THB. Unless his spending patterns change in the meantime, he will, after a couple of years, have accumulated a balance in his Thai account of 800,000 THB, which should then qualify him for the bank balance (instead of Embassy letter) method of proving his income to Immigration at extension of stay time.

Once his Thai account balance has hit that magical 800,000 THB figure he can then reduce the amounts of his ex-UK transfers to only what he actually needs to live on. And for the next extension or 2 he should hopefully be able to satisfy his local office’s peculiar requirements through the monthly transfer credits recorded in his passbook.

I appreciate the OP’s concerns as stated in post #7 about the risks of leaving 800,000 THB deposited in a Thai account. IMHO, however, this is the lesser of 2 evils when compared to the hassle which would inevitably generated by playing ping-pong with Immigration powers-that-be, with absolutely no guarantee of success at the end of the day in any event on account of the Thai national obsession with “saving face” to which other posters have referred.

[Jingthing]

Here is what I would do if I were the OP (assuming I had the 65K plus income documented in the income letter).

I would print financial institution statements showing the initial flow of the income into some kind of bank account, probably not in Thailand. I would then visit immigration soon and clearly ask this question about NEXT YEAR's application.

I would ask, assuming I can show the embassy income letter, proof of pensions if asked and already provided, going back one year printed probably from online FOREIGN bank statements showing/proving the income flow into a foreign bank account, AND three months of 65K flow into my Thai bank account occurring just before the next application date, would that be good enough? Because frankly I would be very surprised if that would not be good enough because as said before there is no rule to import even one baht, and what they seem to be about is to PROVE the income shown in the embassy letter.

I would also wonder if this was done a few times, whether they would back off based on prior record and realize this is an honest application.

The trouble with that idea is they might say OK during that meeting, but later when you come in, the tune can always change.

Another weird aspect of this is that maybe there are some immigration officers who are enforcing the rules as they think they SHOULD be instead of how they actually are. Small scale social engineers, as it were. They might think retirees SHOULD be forced to import 65K monthly because that is better for Thailand (either spending or bank deposits that are hard to ever export) even though that is definitely not required. In real cases like this, I guess you might be looking at an appeal.

That said, I sincerely think that my idea would work pretty much anywhere if their real motivation was PROVING the income letter. Be clear though, in most offices these days the embassy letter would be ALL you ned.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Jingthing

[davejones]

If they really insist on it you could put 800k in the bank and then withdraw your 65k spending money every month and put whatever you don't use in a different account. So they could see the money leaving your account even if you're not spending it. This is a completely stupid rule they've made up though, because to enforce it properly would mean you'd need to show receipts for everything you spent, as just taking it from your account is no proof that you spent it. I don't think they've thought this through properly.

But I suppose it's also possible that they just want to make sure you're not working here illegally. After all, if you're staying here you must be spending some money.

[chuckles]

Just to clarify a few points for recent comments.

1. My girlfriend has her own income from a small rubber plantation. We live in a rented bungalow owned by old family friends of hers. I pay rent, electric and utilities including internet and the total amount has never exceeded 3500 baht.

2. I bought an SUV on credit with loan repayments of 8900 baht per month.

3. We travel on average once per month for a long weekend, spending approximately 5/6 k baht each time. We have day trips, and because we live on the edge of Khao Sok national park, these trips are no more than picnic costs which would probably cost the sane if we stayed home.

4. I probably spend about 2k per month on 'luxury' farang food items over and above our normal food budget. I pay cash for medical and dental bills and splash out occasionally for gifts, birthdays etc.

Even if you double all this expenditure, it only comes to around 40k per month. Major items like flights home once or twice a year I pay with visa.

5. I have shown the usual embassy letter and two up to date original pension statements detailing proof of 100k per month income. My Thai bank pass book shows average monthly income and withdrawals of 40k per month.

I realise we are guests here and fully understand the face issues, but it beggars belief that I should have to import money just to satisfy some poorly interpreted rules. The attitude of some officials will surely drive away those honest law abiding guests who do support the the process of democratisation of a potentially beautiful country and its, mainly, wonderful people.

I appreciate the tips and responses and hope to find a satisfactory middle way.

[phutoie2]

Many thanks for the responses. The officer concerned is the same one I have seen before for 90 day reporting and she is not a junior or newbie. Other workers often interupt her to answer queries or sign off on stuff, so she appears quite senior.

When I questioned the insistence on actually showing 65k per month activity in my pass book, I was told it is the office commanders policy to insist on it. Like the replies above, I feel this is incorrect but I am not going to repeatedly question an officer who seems fairly senior, so it is helful to know there is an appeals system.

Based on that, I am going to let sleeping dogs lie, and if I have a problem next year I will politely request confirmation of policy from a senior officer followed by an appeal if necessary.

Thanks again to all concerned.

PS I'm sure I'm not the only one who would feel comfortable leaving 800k in a Thai bank account with no security guarantee. It might be small change to some but to me, it's still a fair chunk of cash.

Instead of coming out with ridiculous statements such as your last sentence, why not carry out some research on Thai Banks. Do you think they are going to go belly up any minute?. Bangkok Bank for example currently guarantee deposits up to 50 million Baht.

[OJAS]

Many thanks for the responses. The officer concerned is the same one I have seen before for 90 day reporting and she is not a junior or newbie. Other workers often interupt her to answer queries or sign off on stuff, so she appears quite senior.

When I questioned the insistence on actually showing 65k per month activity in my pass book, I was told it is the office commanders policy to insist on it. Like the replies above, I feel this is incorrect but I am not going to repeatedly question an officer who seems fairly senior, so it is helful to know there is an appeals system.

Based on that, I am going to let sleeping dogs lie, and if I have a problem next year I will politely request confirmation of policy from a senior officer followed by an appeal if necessary.

Thanks again to all concerned.

PS I'm sure I'm not the only one who would feel comfortable leaving 800k in a Thai bank account with no security guarantee. It might be small change to some but to me, it's still a fair chunk of cash.

Instead of coming out with ridiculous statements such as your last sentence, why not carry out some research on Thai Banks. Do you think they are going to go belly up any minute?. Bangkok Bank for example currently guarantee deposits up to 50 million Baht.

Well I for one strongly sympathise with the OP’s concerns about the wisdom of leaving 800,000 THB in a Thai bank account (which is why I referred to this as being the lesser of 2 evils for him in post #11). I have personally been the victim of phantom ATM withdrawals totalling over 50,000 THB from accounts with Krung Thai and Kasikorn over the past 4 years I have been living here. Since neither bank ever showed any inclination to reimburse me for my losses, I made sure that all remaining balances were cleared from these accounts PDQ.

For this reason I now have all my retirement income paid into my UK account and only transfer to my existing Thai account the amount I need to live on - which, coincidentally, amounts to the 65,000 THB monthly minimum needed for extension of stay purposes, thanks to my lovely tiirak.

It would not surprise me in the slightest to learn that you were a paid PR consultant for Bangkok Bank, phutoie2, on the basis of the final sentence of your posting.

Edited October 9, 2012 by OJAS

[NancyL]

You can put your 800,000 baht into an orange passbook account at Bangkok Bank, which doesn't have ATM card access and pays higher interest than the blue passbook accounts with ATM access. We never keep more than 100,000 in the ATM-accessible account.

[OJAS]

You can put your 800,000 baht into an orange passbook account at Bangkok Bank, which doesn't have ATM card access and pays higher interest than the blue passbook accounts with ATM access. We never keep more than 100,000 in the ATM-accessible account.

But can you obtain instant access to funds held in an orange book account? I gather that this is a “must” in Immigration’s eyes.

Reverting to post #15, I am in some difficulty in understanding how Bangkok Bank could, in practice, guarantee deposits up to 50 million THB after they had gone bust! I am also strongly of the view that posters making assertions of this nature should provide tangible evidence in support of their statements instead of expecting everyone else to duplicate their efforts independently.

[lopburi3]

Thai government has provided guarantee of deposits and even in the crash before end of last century prevented loss. Do not believe many need to fear loss of bank closure. Illegal activities is another matter but keeping active accounts separated from savings is likely a good practice.

The orange books of Bangkok Bank are fixed deposit accounts and are normally acceptable to immigration as you can immediately access money with only loss of interest.

[OJAS]

Thai government has provided guarantee of deposits and even in the crash before end of last century prevented loss. Do not believe many need to fear loss of bank closure. Illegal activities is another matter but keeping active accounts separated from savings is likely a good practice.

The orange books of Bangkok Bank are fixed deposit accounts and are normally acceptable to immigration as you can immediately access money with only loss of interest.

Thanks for the clarification, Lop. What sounds particularly worrying from this thread is that the OP’s experience is the first time I (at any rate) have heard of a British (as distinct from American) Embassy POI letter not being accepted at face value by Immigration.

[lopburi3]

Any letter is subject to verification by immigration if they want to check - and this would be most likely on a first application I suspect. Normally any reasonable paperwork would be accepted so do not believe anyone with the actual income would have a serious issue.

[beano2274]

I use a letter from my bank the money goes in my savings account, which I use for spending money in Thailand, therefore there is movement.

[tom21]

when i applied for 12 months extension in chiang mai 4 years ago they converted my tourist visa to non imm O and told me to come back in 3 months and apply for the extension. i use a stat dec for proof of income (australia) and state on it that funds will be transferred to thailand when and as needed. there is no way i will transfer 65,000 thb a month as i do not spend that much and the rules do not say i have to spend that amount.

[bangkokburning]

Yeah, no worries - next year is next year. Someone might have sent the clue truck around, she could be transferred, maybe she is in a better mood...

It's quite common knowledge you need not spend out of that acct, if you have another as Nancy that really should be enough. All these guys thinkin' tooo mutt.

[Mario2008]

1 post deletd, no posting of the same in multiple threads.