Deet Did Not Kill Canadian Sisters Audrey And Noemi Belanger: Krabi

[mancub]

_{... Dr James Moss has proposed a different hypothesis to The Phuket News: that Deet has “beta adrenergic agonist activity”. In layman’s terms, this means that Deet by itself, and See Koon Loy by itself, would not kill.}

_{But the two in combination might ...}

_{So then, Deet would still appear to be involved, ?}

I also found the following a bit interesting ...

An official of Thailand’s Central Forensic Institute, speaking on condition of anonymity, said that she did not know where the reports saying Thai scientists had pinpointed Deet as the cause of death had come from.

“Deet was only one element in the deaths,” she said, but she declined to give further information, adding that the gag order was still in place.

Doesn't appear there was a ever a claim by officials to indicate DEET was the sole cause of death as opposed to a contributing factor or that it didn't interact with something else. If I recall the original reports about DEET were from a reporter who looked at the autopsy findings and may not have fully understood what he was reading.

An anonymous Thai official said ,anonymously.!...............Yep, that just about sums it up !!

[Nisa]

_{... Dr James Moss has proposed a different hypothesis to The Phuket News: that Deet has “beta adrenergic agonist activity”. In layman’s terms, this means that Deet by itself, and See Koon Loy by itself, would not kill.}

_{But the two in combination might ...}

_{So then, Deet would still appear to be involved, ?}

I also found the following a bit interesting ...

An official of Thailand’s Central Forensic Institute, speaking on condition of anonymity, said that she did not know where the reports saying Thai scientists had pinpointed Deet as the cause of death had come from.

“Deet was only one element in the deaths,” she said, but she declined to give further information, adding that the gag order was still in place.

Doesn't appear there was a ever a claim by officials to indicate DEET was the sole cause of death as opposed to a contributing factor or that it didn't interact with something else. If I recall the original reports about DEET were from a reporter who looked at the autopsy findings and may not have fully understood what he was reading.

An anonymous Thai official said ,anonymously.!...............Yep, that just about sums it up !!

A female Official at Thailand’s Central Forensic Institute providing a statement despite a gag order ... I think we all have a fairly good guess as to who this was and it pretty much is in line (but adds clarification) to authorities who already expressed concerns that the Canadian Reporters who saw the Thai Autopsy report had not fully understood what they saw. But a simple request or waiver by the parents would allow this information to become public or they could simply make the documents public themselves as I would guess they have a copy of the report.

[Jayman]

How many more time will you need to hear that the parents are not asking to have any information withheld before you will believe it?

[maidu]

How many more time will you need to hear that the parents are not asking to have any information withheld before you will believe it?

I agree, and I sensed that from the time this story broke. The parents want to know the truth. Part of that process could be info from others who either had some involvement with the girls in their final days, or perhaps have some new insight/knowledge re; the circumstances. I have a 30-something daughter who visits Thailand once in awhile, and I too would want full disclosure if something like this happened to her or her friends.

It can't be over-stated: Thai authorities have dropped the ball on this case from the 1st hour. If I had the authority to do so, I would severely discipline all Thai officials involved with this case, and re-train anyone who might be involved in similar cases in the future. I would mandate retraining with the guidance of foreign experts/expertise. As for personal work ethics, well, that's a tough one to teach. Those are the sorts of things that a person starts learning at infancy.

[maidu]

Deborah Blum is a US expert on poisoning. She has taken a close look at this case and others in SE Asia. She claims it's 'ridiculous' to blame it on deet poisononing. There are two articles with her (sorry if this is a redundant link) One, written by her is titled "Poisoning the (Female) Tourist in Asia" the other is the NPR interview, mentioned/linked in an earlier post. She seems to think that intentional poisoning is a likely scenario.

[Nisa]

How many more time will you need to hear that the parents are not asking to have any information withheld before you will believe it?

Probably the same number of times that you need to be told the family is the one preventing the information being released to the "the public". Even the Canadian medical examiners have sighted the privacy laws, which the family can waive, as being the reason they will not release information. Numerous Thai officials have also stated they will only provide information to the embassy because of the embassy request that came from the family. The family without doubt has been provided with all the completed medical reports to date and if they wanted the information to be made public then it would be. Nothing against them not wanting it being made public but please stop the nonsense in pretending they want all the official information made public because if they did, it would be public now. Them wanting to know everything is much different than them wanting the world to know..

[mancub]

_{... Dr James Moss has proposed a different hypothesis to The Phuket News: that Deet has “beta adrenergic agonist activity”. In layman’s terms, this means that Deet by itself, and See Koon Loy by itself, would not kill.}

_{But the two in combination might ...}

_{So then, Deet would still appear to be involved, ?}

I also found the following a bit interesting ...

An official of Thailand’s Central Forensic Institute, speaking on condition of anonymity, said that she did not know where the reports saying Thai scientists had pinpointed Deet as the cause of death had come from.

“Deet was only one element in the deaths,” she said, but she declined to give further information, adding that the gag order was still in place.

Doesn't appear there was a ever a claim by officials to indicate DEET was the sole cause of death as opposed to a contributing factor or that it didn't interact with something else. If I recall the original reports about DEET were from a reporter who looked at the autopsy findings and may not have fully understood what he was reading.

An anonymous Thai official said ,anonymously.!...............Yep, that just about sums it up !!

A female Official at Thailand’s Central Forensic Institute providing a statement despite a gag order ... I think we all have a fairly good guess as to who this was and it pretty much is in line (but adds clarification) to authorities who already expressed concerns that the Canadian Reporters who saw the Thai Autopsy report had not fully understood what they saw. But a simple request or waiver by the parents would allow this information to become public or they could simply make the documents public themselves as I would guess they have a copy of the report.

Yes, we can " guess" this and you can "guess" that ! Essentially ,it's one big guessing game isn't it ? Caused by incompetence , followed by inconsistency ,followed closely by denial ...all neatly wrapped in confusion . If Canadian reporters didn't fully understand ,as you say, then it's hardly surprising .

[Nisa]

Yes, we can " guess" this and you can "guess" that ! Essentially ,it's one big guessing game isn't it ? Caused by incompetence , followed by inconsistency ,followed closely by denial ...all neatly wrapped in confusion . If Canadian reporters didn't fully understand ,as you say, then it's hardly surprising .

I am not sure of incompetence or denial or anything else. It is a mystery at least for us as nobody is talking be in the Thais or Canadians. The Thais never said the cause of death was DEET as this was simply reported by Canadian reporters who got a peak at the medical report. The Thais have basically made numerous comments publicly that people shouldn't rely on the Canadian reporters. How much the family and Canadians and Thais know officially is a completely different thing though I am guessing there is no absolute sureness of the cause of death. What does seem clear is there was DEET in their system, a shot glass of DEET can kill but when combined with other drugs and alcohol it likely takes less. I am guessing the Canadian reporters focused on the DEET because there was nothing else the Thais could find in their system to raise suspicions. The big issue here is that be it in Thailand or Canada or anywhere else, you really can't test for what is not supposed to be there but need to test for specific things and the list is kind of endless in terms of what can kill a person especially when you consider how various things alone may be fairly harmless but combined together can be deadly.

I doubt very much there is anything be covered up unless it is to protect the family. Pretty much the worst thing these deaths can be attributed is "unknown" when it comes to tourism. A reporter in Phuket even submitted in writing questions to the Canadian officials who sighted privacy laws (the ones the family will not waive) for refusing to answer questions and then was asked a question regarding the public interest and safety versus privacy laws ... the bottom line is if Canada thought there was a public safety issue (serial killer...) they would be bound to release such information but the only thing Canadian officials have released along these lines is a Travel warning regarding the reported and possible use of DEET in a party drink.

Truth be told many deaths occur all over the world where the underlying cause of death is unknown be it poisoning or heart failure ... sometimes the actual cause is just never discovered. However, there is usually not this much effort put into such investigations as there have been this one, at least in terms of forensics..

[oldsailor35]

What would the Travel insurance company have to say if it was something other than DEET which was the cause of their death ?

[oldsailor35]

If you go to a 3^rd world country on holiday and something tragic like this happens I am sure the victim’s family know that no honest results establishing the cause of death will ever come from any 3^rd world country which is endemic with corruption and bribe taking, all a very sad state of affairs for the parents and family.

Errrr ! which 3rd world country are you concerned about Jim ?

[MacChine]

I don't think this is fair, or accurate. I've seen a lot of mis- media ( reprinting of mistaken info) get bandied around as fact on this and the other cases I think the family will release any definitive results- if they ever get any.

Thailand is simply not that concerned, it is cultural and something tourists should know before deciding to visit.

Corrupt police, incompetent reporters = no justice for the 2 girls. RIP

It's the family that want the cause of death kept secret, not the police. What exactly do you want the police to do if this was an accidental death?

[mancub]

I don't think this is fair, or accurate. I've seen a lot of mis- media ( reprinting of mistaken info) get bandied around as fact on this and the other cases I think the family will release any definitive results- if they ever get any.

Thailand is simply not that concerned, it is cultural and something tourists should know before deciding to visit.

Corrupt police, incompetent reporters = no justice for the 2 girls. RIP

It's the family that want the cause of death kept secret, not the police. What exactly do you want the police to do if this was an accidental death?

Agree with you , Thailand is concerned in as much as it may affect income from Tourism, but it doesn't seem capable of understanding or willing to address the concerns of the people (tourists ) that it courts .