How Hard Is Lpg On The Engine?

[transam]

So you're wrong again and trying to sound all tough and make this personal again to distract from the false information you've provided? First off when you grow a real set Lance you can tell me to "back off" but until then you're nothing but wanke_r windbag..

Now having made that clear, in the hear and now climate of 2012 versus the 1980's you still live in, with better engine components, higher quality oil, higher expense & to cut back on unnecessary waste, those recommendations have been altered & adjusted dramatically & in most cases doubled by nearly EVERY credible source on the topic of which doesn't include those who'd like you to buy as much as possible to keep them working, but instead oil filter changes on those intervals and that's WITHOUT an LP car.

Which BTW you have done your usual 'tap dance around the question routine' and not answered just how many Lp cars you've owned? Until you do, you have no credibility on the topic...

Of course the oil companies and garages who want you to change as often as possible don't discourage you from giving them work for more money now do they? Unless of course it was a mechanic with ethics and principles with YOUR best interest at heart like me but they're few and far between..

NOTHING PERSONAL from me. I did near half million miles in two cars, changed oil every 3000 miles with mineral oil.. READ stuff eh.

So tell me oh wise one. When you whizzed round a track for 20 minutes in your VW grocery getter, WHEN did you, or did you change the oil. ?

Yes when you tell me to "back off" and that "I'm not qualified" it is most definitely personal...

2 cars? Again Lp cars and where??

Yes real men and drivers do more then 1-15 second run at a time in their Firechicken and they brake and turn corners fast & consistently dozens of times per lap and for hours on end (stamina) & don't head to the loo or frig between straight line runs to get a brewski or drain the lizard ..

Nice to here all that BUT lets stick to the point if oil changes eh.

[WarpSpeed]

Yes it would be good of you to head your own advice when you decide to post rubbish...

[stevenl]

Nice to here all that BUT lets stick to the point if oil changes eh.

No, let's talk about LPG and car engines, that is what this thread is about. And since you obviously have no experience with LPG ...

[ignis]

no experience with LPG..........myself had 2 cars fitted with LPG, but that was way back in the old days.... 1st Ford Zodiac 3 lt, was fine in town but a pain on the open road, unit kept freezing up.. had to sit on the side of the road until all the ice melted, then could drive another 40 miles.......... 2nd car was the 3 lt Austin Landcrab. no end to the problems, not starting to freezing up...... No one at the time could sort out the problems.......... No idea on present day, back then you HAD to switch to petrol before turning engine off , so always started on petrol.. is it still like that now-a-day ?

Forward a good many years, next house up in the Village here had a Mitz Champ on LPG, nothing but problems, many times a week, he sold, and bought a 1999 Corolla almost 4 years ago fitted LPG, never had any problems, works 7 days a week......... across the road also has LPG fitted about 4 years ago to his 1995 Corolla, has lots of starting problems, as it get worse mechanics come every 5 or 6 weeks, at least he has an option as a couple of years ago bought a old Isuzu diesel with a TR estate body, so if the Toyota will not start then has a fall back plan..

Over the years have seen many a Taxi unable to get it to start.. So really have no idea, to me it appears there are as many same problems as 30+ years ago....

So you get 2 cars the same on LPG one runs perfect the other no end of problems,, Bad fitting ? different filling stations ? [back in the old days think there was 1x filling station per City]

The petrol Tata pickup with CNG has had the petrol tank removed and runs only on gas, and there's lots of them about, DFM has a choice 1.1 lt LPG fitted or 1.3 lt NGV fitted.. think all other makes have dual systems.

[transam]

Nice to here all that BUT lets stick to the point if oil changes eh.

No, let's talk about LPG and car engines, that is what this thread is about. And since you obviously have no experience with LPG ...

I don't need you to tell me not to try and answer a guys question even if it is a little off topic. You want to be a mod then apply for a job.

[stevenl]

Nice to here all that BUT lets stick to the point if oil changes eh.

No, let's talk about LPG and car engines, that is what this thread is about. And since you obviously have no experience with LPG ...

I don't need you to tell me not to try and answer a guys question even if it is a little off topic. You want to be a mod then apply for a job.

The question is 'is LPG hard on the engine'. Now you can try and pretend it was something different, but that is not the case. And you can also pretend this thread is about you, but that is also not the case.

Just answer questions normally here and people will be nice to you. But, as pointed out earlier already, considering the rude way you think you have to answer questions here, the rude way in which you try to make every topic about yourself and the rude way you think you have to treat people here you will every time have people not being happy with the way you communicate.

[WarpSpeed]

no experience with LPG..........myself had 2 cars fitted with LPG, but that was way back in the old days.... 1st Ford Zodiac 3 lt, was fine in town but a pain on the open road, unit kept freezing up.. had to sit on the side of the road until all the ice melted, then could drive another 40 miles.......... 2nd car was the 3 lt Austin Landcrab. no end to the problems, not starting to freezing up...... No one at the time could sort out the problems.......... No idea on present day, back then you HAD to switch to petrol before turning engine off , so always started on petrol.. is it still like that now-a-day ?

Forward a good many years, next house up in the Village here had a Mitz Champ on LPG, nothing but problems, many times a week, he sold, and bought a 1999 Corolla almost 4 years ago fitted LPG, never had any problems, works 7 days a week......... across the road also has LPG fitted about 4 years ago to his 1995 Corolla, has lots of starting problems, as it get worse mechanics come every 5 or 6 weeks, at least he has an option as a couple of years ago bought a old Isuzu diesel with a TR estate body, so if the Toyota will not start then has a fall back plan..

Over the years have seen many a Taxi unable to get it to start.. So really have no idea, to me it appears there are as many same problems as 30+ years ago....

So you get 2 cars the same on LPG one runs perfect the other no end of problems,, Bad fitting ? different filling stations ? [back in the old days think there was 1x filling station per City]

The petrol Tata pickup with CNG has had the petrol tank removed and runs only on gas, and there's lots of them about, DFM has a choice 1.1 lt LPG fitted or 1.3 lt NGV fitted.. think all other makes have dual systems.

There's no doubt it's subjective as I posted earlier "tuned properly" is a real big issue but that's not due to the Lp or it's system necessarily & yes for proper use and care to avoid many of your noted issues they should ALWAYS be started and stopped on (petrol gasoline/benzine) first only, that hasn't changed honestly. Now most systems are automatic I still did it manually so it was better controlled but that's merely pushing a button when starting and stopping, so it's no more inconvenient then putting on your seat belt.. But LP technology has advanced considerably from early models like you describe as has engine technology, never heard of a modern system freezing up here, many factors may have caused or contributed to that phenomena.

The Lp does not vaporize properly (effectively or efficiently) when running cold but the same attention should be made towards proper warm up of all cars too if you really want to get down to the brass tacks of it all. The oil and water temps should be warmed properly in spite of newer technology.. In the case of it being cold the gas is dense & the car will run much richer and have difficulty pulling Lp through the system efficiently and worse yet burning it properly which will cause backfiring and other damaging issues to the system when cold..

The Thai's answer to this instead of understanding the system properly and tuning it accordingly is to ad a little pressure relief valve on the top of the air cleaner or intake tube or where ever to relieve backfiring pressure but that is a band aid to fix a problem they just don't understand especially a local mechanic who barely knows anything except Toyota's or Honda's anyways.. If you start on petrol and stop the same way after running it for several minutes before, it burns off any lurking pockets of Lp that may ignite against a hot intake or something else when not running or when being restarted..

The Lp on most commonly used inexpensive systems is not as instantaneously shut off as the car itself is since they work entirely on vacuum to pull gas through once the gas is past the pre-heater solenoid unlike the other more expensive brands I.E. (Fuel injected systems) and the car shuts down but the gas gets trapped in the sealed system to be there to cause these issues after the fact.. Lp is heavier then air so it sinks to low spots & stays trapped in the in the air intake system until the next time it's started or something hot enough ignites it in your absence to cause a back fire, though that is more rare it does happen...

Stopping and starting on petrol also cools Lp over-heated parts and leaves them lubricated for that critical next cold start...

Additionally as mentioned when restarting only on Lp after long periods of being idle the gas does dissipate and is not immediately available to restart and long periods of cranking may be necessary to pull it through not unlike the older carburated systems with mechanical fuel pumps, though they pump the fuel the engine needs to run or turn over for it to pump fully, it needs to get Lp into the cylinders and that only happens through vacuum in those cases..

Edited October 24, 2012 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

Nice to here all that BUT lets stick to the point if oil changes eh.

No, let's talk about LPG and car engines, that is what this thread is about. And since you obviously have no experience with LPG ...

You want to be a mod then apply for a job.

Not going to light this up again, but it HAS to be said, you don't DO irony do you?

Edited October 24, 2012 by WarpSpeed

[transam]

Nice to here all that BUT lets stick to the point if oil changes eh.

No, let's talk about LPG and car engines, that is what this thread is about. And since you obviously have no experience with LPG ...

I don't need you to tell me not to try and answer a guys question even if it is a little off topic. You want to be a mod then apply for a job.

The question is 'is LPG hard on the engine'. Now you can try and pretend it was something different, but that is not the case. And you can also pretend this thread is about you, but that is also not the case.

Just answer questions normally here and people will be nice to you. But, as pointed out earlier already, considering the rude way you think you have to answer questions here, the rude way in which you try to make every topic about yourself and the rude way you think you have to treat people here you will every time have people not being happy with the way you communicate.

Very few on THIS forum are unhappy with my input, if my memory serves me well there are only two, both are above, you include. Does it bother me, nooooo, cos l expect it.

Any hooooooooo, hope my oil thoughts helped the guy that asked.

[stevenl]

Very few on THIS forum are unhappy with my input, if my memory serves me well there are only two, both are above, you include. Does it bother me, nooooo, cos l expect it.

Any hooooooooo, hope my oil thoughts helped the guy that asked.

People not telling you something does not mean they are happy with you.

And as written earlier, but this seems not go in your head, in general your attitude bothers me, not the content of the posts you make.

[transam]

Very few on THIS forum are unhappy with my input, if my memory serves me well there are only two, both are above, you include. Does it bother me, nooooo, cos l expect it.

Any hooooooooo, hope my oil thoughts helped the guy that asked.

People not telling you something does not mean they are happy with you.

And as written earlier, but this seems not go in your head, in general your attitude bothers me, not the content of the posts you make.

OK, back on topic .

Tell me. Whether LPG, benzine, Turbo Charged, Super Charged, Diesel, or a Nitrous Injected engine, how do these different set ups differ regarding engine oil ?

[monty]

Staying on topic, and keeping the personal vendetta's out of the threads makes for a much better resource of on-topic info!

It's easy enough to start new topics, and doing so you make a valuable subject such as oil change intervals visible to everybody interested and not just people looking for info on lpg.

And I already am a mod

Sent from my GT-I9001 using Thaivisa Connect App

[monty]

no experience with LPG..........myself had 2 cars fitted with LPG, but that was way back in the old days.... 1st Ford Zodiac 3 lt, was fine in town but a pain on the open road, unit kept freezing up.. had to sit on the side of the road until all the ice melted, then could drive another 40 miles.......... 2nd car was the 3 lt Austin Landcrab. no end to the problems, not starting to freezing up...... No one at the time could sort out the problems.......... No idea on present day, back then you HAD to switch to petrol before turning engine off , so always started on petrol.. is it still like that now-a-day ?

Forward a good many years, next house up in the Village here had a Mitz Champ on LPG, nothing but problems, many times a week, he sold, and bought a 1999 Corolla almost 4 years ago fitted LPG, never had any problems, works 7 days a week......... across the road also has LPG fitted about 4 years ago to his 1995 Corolla, has lots of starting problems, as it get worse mechanics come every 5 or 6 weeks, at least he has an option as a couple of years ago bought a old Isuzu diesel with a TR estate body, so if the Toyota will not start then has a fall back plan..

Over the years have seen many a Taxi unable to get it to start.. So really have no idea, to me it appears there are as many same problems as 30+ years ago....

So you get 2 cars the same on LPG one runs perfect the other no end of problems,, Bad fitting ? different filling stations ? [back in the old days think there was 1x filling station per City]

The petrol Tata pickup with CNG has had the petrol tank removed and runs only on gas, and there's lots of them about, DFM has a choice 1.1 lt LPG fitted or 1.3 lt NGV fitted.. think all other makes have dual systems.

Long but sensible post.

Just want to add that most of the above described problems are a result of using the cheap first generation vacuum controlled LP systems.

Those can work properly but need frequent maintenance/tune ups to stay in shape.

The newer injection systems have virtually no issues starting and running, most of them piggyback on the existing petrol injection computer, meaning that they are basically controlled by the oxygen sensor in the exhaust, and so keep close to perfect mixture at all times.

The starting on petrol partly comes from lpg usage in colder climes like Europe in wintertime.

The device where the LP changes from liquid to gas form (evaporator) generates cold.

Much like a pressurized spray can get cold when spraying a long time.

Engine coolant is run through this device to keep the process going efficiently.

In Thailand with outside temperatures seldom below the low 20's, this is not much of a problem, also because the engine warms up pretty fast here.

In freezing weather, the cold coolant of a cold engine will not help the evaporator to run good, hence the need to warm up the engine on petrol a short time, so warmer coolant is running through the evaporator.

As another member mentioned the frequent "freezing" of his system, this has only one cause and that is that insufficient (or none) coolant is routed through the evaporator. Normally easily rectified...

Running lpg in -10° on a cold engine will also simply freeze up...

Sent from my GT-I9001 using Thaivisa Connect App

[WarpSpeed]

Very few on THIS forum are unhappy with my input, if my memory serves me well there are only two, both are above, you include. Does it bother me, nooooo, cos l expect it.

Any hooooooooo, hope my oil thoughts helped the guy that asked.

People not telling you something does not mean they are happy with you.

Yes, they may well tell others though ... Just sayin like... Edited October 24, 2012 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

no experience with LPG..........myself had 2 cars fitted with LPG, but that was way back in the old days.... 1st Ford Zodiac 3 lt, was fine in town but a pain on the open road, unit kept freezing up.. had to sit on the side of the road until all the ice melted, then could drive another 40 miles.......... 2nd car was the 3 lt Austin Landcrab. no end to the problems, not starting to freezing up...... No one at the time could sort out the problems.......... No idea on present day, back then you HAD to switch to petrol before turning engine off , so always started on petrol.. is it still like that now-a-day ?Forward a good many years, next house up in the Village here had a Mitz Champ on LPG, nothing but problems, many times a week, he sold, and bought a 1999 Corolla almost 4 years ago fitted LPG, never had any problems, works 7 days a week......... across the road also has LPG fitted about 4 years ago to his 1995 Corolla, has lots of starting problems, as it get worse mechanics come every 5 or 6 weeks, at least he has an option as a couple of years ago bought a old Isuzu diesel with a TR estate body, so if the Toyota will not start then has a fall back plan..Over the years have seen many a Taxi unable to get it to start.. So really have no idea, to me it appears there are as many same problems as 30+ years ago.... So you get 2 cars the same on LPG one runs perfect the other no end of problems,, Bad fitting ? different filling stations ? [back in the old days think there was 1x filling station per City]The petrol Tata pickup with CNG has had the petrol tank removed and runs only on gas, and there's lots of them about, DFM has a choice 1.1 lt LPG fitted or 1.3 lt NGV fitted.. think all other makes have dual systems.

Long but sensible post.Just want to add that most of the above described problems are a result of using the cheap first generation vacuum controlled LP systems.Those can work properly but need frequent maintenance/tune ups to stay in shape.The newer injection systems have virtually no issues starting and running, most of them piggyback on the existing petrol injection computer, meaning that they are basically controlled by the oxygen sensor in the exhaust, and so keep close to perfect mixture at all times.The starting on petrol partly comes from lpg usage in colder climes like Europe in wintertime.The device where the LP changes from liquid to gas form (evaporator) generates cold.Much like a pressurized spray can get cold when spraying a long time.Engine coolant is run through this device to keep the process going efficiently.In Thailand with outside temperatures seldom below the low 20's, this is not much of a problem, also because the engine warms up pretty fast here.In freezing weather, the cold coolant of a cold engine will not help the evaporator to run good, hence the need to warm up the engine on petrol a short time, so warmer coolant is running through the evaporator.As another member mentioned the frequent "freezing" of his system, this has only one cause and that is that insufficient (or none) coolant is routed through the evaporator. Normally easily rectified...Running lpg in -10° on a cold engine will also simply freeze up...Sent from my GT-I9001 using Thaivisa Connect App

Long but sensible post!!! Seriously though on such a technical topic and with the pedants frequenting this forum eh hemm... It's not possible to leave anything to the imagination, which in turn translates into lengthy posts at times ..BTW who died and left you a mod?? Edited October 24, 2012 by WarpSpeed

[monty]

no experience with LPG..........myself had 2 cars fitted with LPG, but that was way back in the old days.... 1st Ford Zodiac 3 lt, was fine in town but a pain on the open road, unit kept freezing up.. had to sit on the side of the road until all the ice melted, then could drive another 40 miles.......... 2nd car was the 3 lt Austin Landcrab. no end to the problems, not starting to freezing up...... No one at the time could sort out the problems.......... No idea on present day, back then you HAD to switch to petrol before turning engine off , so always started on petrol.. is it still like that now-a-day ?Forward a good many years, next house up in the Village here had a Mitz Champ on LPG, nothing but problems, many times a week, he sold, and bought a 1999 Corolla almost 4 years ago fitted LPG, never had any problems, works 7 days a week......... across the road also has LPG fitted about 4 years ago to his 1995 Corolla, has lots of starting problems, as it get worse mechanics come every 5 or 6 weeks, at least he has an option as a couple of years ago bought a old Isuzu diesel with a TR estate body, so if the Toyota will not start then has a fall back plan..Over the years have seen many a Taxi unable to get it to start.. So really have no idea, to me it appears there are as many same problems as 30+ years ago.... So you get 2 cars the same on LPG one runs perfect the other no end of problems,, Bad fitting ? different filling stations ? [back in the old days think there was 1x filling station per City]The petrol Tata pickup with CNG has had the petrol tank removed and runs only on gas, and there's lots of them about, DFM has a choice 1.1 lt LPG fitted or 1.3 lt NGV fitted.. think all other makes have dual systems.

Long but sensible post.Just want to add that most of the above described problems are a result of using the cheap first generation vacuum controlled LP systems.Those can work properly but need frequent maintenance/tune ups to stay in shape.The newer injection systems have virtually no issues starting and running, most of them piggyback on the existing petrol injection computer, meaning that they are basically controlled by the oxygen sensor in the exhaust, and so keep close to perfect mixture at all times.The starting on petrol partly comes from lpg usage in colder climes like Europe in wintertime.The device where the LP changes from liquid to gas form (evaporator) generates cold.Much like a pressurized spray can get cold when spraying a long time.Engine coolant is run through this device to keep the process going efficiently.In Thailand with outside temperatures seldom below the low 20's, this is not much of a problem, also because the engine warms up pretty fast here.In freezing weather, the cold coolant of a cold engine will not help the evaporator to run good, hence the need to warm up the engine on petrol a short time, so warmer coolant is running through the evaporator.As another member mentioned the frequent "freezing" of his system, this has only one cause and that is that insufficient (or none) coolant is routed through the evaporator. Normally easily rectified...Running lpg in -10° on a cold engine will also simply freeze up...Sent from my GT-I9001 using Thaivisa Connect App

Long but sensible post!!! Seriously though on such a technical topic and with the pedants frequenting this forum eh hemm... It's not possible to leave anything to the imagination, which in turn translates into lengthy posts at times ..BTW who died and left you a mod??

Some kind of punishment i received

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[WarpSpeed]

Punishment!! Reward more like! Who wouldn't want to moderate this group?? Much better then the knitting forum..Ok no more off topic...

Walking away asking myself if T/V has a knitting forum ?.....

Edited October 24, 2012 by WarpSpeed

[monty]

Had a few vehicles on lpg, namely a volvo 245, vw caravelle (2.4 liter 5 cilinder) and a cefiro (2 liter v6).

All over 100 k km, wthout any serious issues, but on all I had the valve saving oil injection system and kept it religiously topped up with 2 stroke oil.

One thing to note though, lp does burn hotter then petrol, and initially this was an issue on the caravelle, until we upgraded the cooling system.

So if you currently have a car which for example has a tendency to run hot (Bkk traffic jam with ac full blast), then you WILL have to upgrade your cooling system if you want to run lpg.

This said, in my opinion any car, with a quality injection lp system and a decent maintained/tuned engine should not see any damage whatsoever.

I have seen a few destroyed lp fueled engines, and invariably the damage resulted from bad installations/maintenance.

One was always running with the temp needle close to the redline,'nothing ever done about as it never came in the redzone.

Another one virtually self destructed through pinging when doing a long stretch on petrol due to lp unavailibility upcountry.

Ignition was advanced so much that the ignition unit could not compensate enough when detecting pinging.

Seen this often in Thailand when the local guys "fine tune for max power" for lpg, forgetting that lpg has a very high octane (around 110), all very good but then you better disable the petrol system as the engine will go bonkers (literally) on 95 octane petrol....

Don't forget, if you specifically build an engine for lp, you can get more power per cc displacement then out of a petrol engine, simply banking on the high octane.

Higher compression ratio, advanced ignition, higher turbo boost etc...

The thing would self destruct on petrol though ....

Sent from my GT-I9001 using Thaivisa Connect App

[WarpSpeed]

Had a few vehicles on lpg, namely a volvo 245, vw caravelle (2.4 liter 5 cilinder) and a cefiro (2 liter v6).

All over 100 k km, wthout any serious issues, but on all I had the valve saving oil injection system and kept it religiously topped up with 2 stroke oil.

One thing to note though, lp does burn hotter then petrol, and initially this was an issue on the caravelle, until we upgraded the cooling system.

So if you currently have a car which for example has a tendency to run hot (Bkk traffic jam with ac full blast), then you WILL have to upgrade your cooling system if you want to run lpg.

This said, in my opinion any car, with a quality injection lp system and a decent maintained/tuned engine should not see any damage whatsoever.

I have seen a few destroyed lp fueled engines, and invariably the damage resulted from bad installations/maintenance.

One was always running with the temp needle close to the redline,'nothing ever done about as it never came in the redzone.

Another one virtually self destructed through pinging when doing a long stretch on petrol due to lp unavailibility upcountry.

Ignition was advanced so much that the ignition unit could not compensate enough when detecting pinging.

Seen this often in Thailand when the local guys "fine tune for max power" for lpg, forgetting that lpg has a very high octane (around 110), all very good but then you better disable the petrol system as the engine will go bonkers (literally) on 95 octane petrol....

Don't forget, if you specifically build an engine for lp, you can get more power per cc displacement then out of a petrol engine, simply banking on the high octane.

Higher compression ratio, advanced ignition, higher turbo boost etc...

The thing would self destruct on petrol though ....

Sent from my GT-I9001 using Thaivisa Connect App

Yes and the tuning is where so many fall short here, it's usually either/or and never a compromise as compromises take too long to achieve and often times not possible with many mechanics here because they don't necessarily think it is even possible to achieve..

I disagree somewhat though on the over heating issue in terms of requiring an upgrade as a good system can always be operated in both fuels and if over heating becomes apparent a vigilant driver can switch fuels to curve this. Overheating can also be caused by timing being too far advanced so that can and should also be checked and adjusted as necessary..

Edited October 24, 2012 by WarpSpeed

[VocalNeal]

Lp is heavier then air so it sinks to low spots & stays trapped in the in the air intake system until the next time it's started or something hot enough ignites it in your absence to cause a back fire, though that is more rare it does happen...

Usually only if you shut off and start up immediately say like pulling up to the wrong pump at the filling station. Unnerving if the air cleaner is under the seat

[monty]

Had a few vehicles on lpg, namely a volvo 245, vw caravelle (2.4 liter 5 cilinder) and a cefiro (2 liter v6).

All over 100 k km, wthout any serious issues, but on all I had the valve saving oil injection system and kept it religiously topped up with 2 stroke oil.

One thing to note though, lp does burn hotter then petrol, and initially this was an issue on the caravelle, until we upgraded the cooling system.

So if you currently have a car which for example has a tendency to run hot (Bkk traffic jam with ac full blast), then you WILL have to upgrade your cooling system if you want to run lpg.

This said, in my opinion any car, with a quality injection lp system and a decent maintained/tuned engine should not see any damage whatsoever.

I have seen a few destroyed lp fueled engines, and invariably the damage resulted from bad installations/maintenance.

One was always running with the temp needle close to the redline,'nothing ever done about as it never came in the redzone.

Another one virtually self destructed through pinging when doing a long stretch on petrol due to lp unavailibility upcountry.

Ignition was advanced so much that the ignition unit could not compensate enough when detecting pinging.

Seen this often in Thailand when the local guys "fine tune for max power" for lpg, forgetting that lpg has a very high octane (around 110), all very good but then you better disable the petrol system as the engine will go bonkers (literally) on 95 octane petrol....

Don't forget, if you specifically build an engine for lp, you can get more power per cc displacement then out of a petrol engine, simply banking on the high octane.

Higher compression ratio, advanced ignition, higher turbo boost etc...

The thing would self destruct on petrol though ....

Sent from my GT-I9001 using Thaivisa Connect App

Yes and the tuning is where so many fall short here, it's usually either/or and never a compromise as compromises take too long to achieve and often times not possible with many mechanics here because they don't necessarily think it is even possible to achieve..

I disagree somewhat though on the over heating issue in terms of requiring an upgrade as a good system can always be operated in both fuels and if over heating becomes apparent a vigilant driver can switch fuels to curve this. Overheating can also be caused by timing being too far advanced so that can and should also be checked and adjusted as necessary..

The overheating I refer to is more like on imported European cars with cooling system marginal even on petrol...

Upgrade can be as simple/cheap as upgrading the radiator fans, especially when using the car in prolongued low speed scenarios....

The vw caravelle was a problem, even on petrol when stuck in start/stop traffic in Bangkok, with the constant strain of the high power a/c compressor.

High capacity radiator solved the problem, so common in Thailand that most garages working on vw stock them...

Sent from my GT-I9001 using Thaivisa Connect App

[WarpSpeed]

Had a few vehicles on lpg, namely a volvo 245, vw caravelle (2.4 liter 5 cilinder) and a cefiro (2 liter v6).

All over 100 k km, wthout any serious issues, but on all I had the valve saving oil injection system and kept it religiously topped up with 2 stroke oil.

One thing to note though, lp does burn hotter then petrol, and initially this was an issue on the caravelle, until we upgraded the cooling system.

So if you currently have a car which for example has a tendency to run hot (Bkk traffic jam with ac full blast), then you WILL have to upgrade your cooling system if you want to run lpg.

This said, in my opinion any car, with a quality injection lp system and a decent maintained/tuned engine should not see any damage whatsoever.

I have seen a few destroyed lp fueled engines, and invariably the damage resulted from bad installations/maintenance.

One was always running with the temp needle close to the redline,'nothing ever done about as it never came in the redzone.

Another one virtually self destructed through pinging when doing a long stretch on petrol due to lp unavailibility upcountry.

Ignition was advanced so much that the ignition unit could not compensate enough when detecting pinging.

Seen this often in Thailand when the local guys "fine tune for max power" for lpg, forgetting that lpg has a very high octane (around 110), all very good but then you better disable the petrol system as the engine will go bonkers (literally) on 95 octane petrol....

Don't forget, if you specifically build an engine for lp, you can get more power per cc displacement then out of a petrol engine, simply banking on the high octane.

Higher compression ratio, advanced ignition, higher turbo boost etc...

The thing would self destruct on petrol though ....

Sent from my GT-I9001 using Thaivisa Connect App

Yes and the tuning is where so many fall short here, it's usually either/or and never a compromise as compromises take too long to achieve and often times not possible with many mechanics here because they don't necessarily think it is even possible to achieve..

I disagree somewhat though on the over heating issue in terms of requiring an upgrade as a good system can always be operated in both fuels and if over heating becomes apparent a vigilant driver can switch fuels to curve this. Overheating can also be caused by timing being too far advanced so that can and should also be checked and adjusted as necessary..

The overheating I refer to is more like on imported European cars with cooling system marginal even on petrol...

Upgrade can be as simple/cheap as upgrading the radiator fans, especially when using the car in prolongued low speed scenarios....

The vw caravelle was a problem, even on petrol when stuck in start/stop traffic in Bangkok, with the constant strain of the high power a/c compressor.

High capacity radiator solved the problem, so common in Thailand that most garages working on vw stock them...

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Yep every one of my Lp cars have been VW or VW products buuut most think they are too expensive to maintain or too hard to find parts for but that just isn't the case. VW was actually one of the first manufacturers to offer their products here in Thailand as they were also in China.

Edited October 24, 2012 by WarpSpeed

[ginglee]

I was asking about 2hand cars! As an example, a 10 year old Passat with 200k on the clock, LPG-kit installed 5 years ago, so logically about 100k km on gas, how much damage has that done to the engine??

Not an expert, but I believe it damages the engine. I think it runs hotter and engine less lubricated.

I have diesel, would never want gas. Have plenty of power, and good fuel economy

Actually LPG engines stay better lubricated than petrol or diesel engines because the oil doesn't get

contaminated with LPG as it's a gas, unlike petrol and diesel which are liquids and deteriorate engine oil

as they mix through the cylinder bores.

Therefore the oil will last longer and the engine will suffer less wear.

Also, because LPG is a gas it doesn't create carbon deposits inside the engine where as petrol and diesel

does so an LPG engine will run cleaner and therefore have a longer life expectancy.

This is what Ive been told(above) by a lpg specialist in the UK.....Ive been running cars for years on lpg in the UK...The only issues Ive had is with Lambada sensors packing in.......

[WarpSpeed]

I was asking about 2hand cars! As an example, a 10 year old Passat with 200k on the clock, LPG-kit installed 5 years ago, so logically about 100k km on gas, how much damage has that done to the engine??

Not an expert, but I believe it damages the engine. I think it runs hotter and engine less lubricated.

I have diesel, would never want gas. Have plenty of power, and good fuel economy

Actually LPG engines stay better lubricated than petrol or diesel engines because the oil doesn't get

contaminated with LPG as it's a gas, unlike petrol and diesel which are liquids and deteriorate engine oil

as they mix through the cylinder bores.

Therefore the oil will last longer and the engine will suffer less wear.

Also, because LPG is a gas it doesn't create carbon deposits inside the engine where as petrol and diesel

does so an LPG engine will run cleaner and therefore have a longer life expectancy.

This is what Ive been told(above) by a lpg specialist in the UK.....Ive been running cars for years on lpg in the UK...The only issues Ive had is with Lambada sensors packing in.......

Just so you know contamination is not the only destruction of oil. Loss of viscosity is just as critical and more common in high heat applications..

[technologybytes]

I'm sure modern mineral based oils are good for many more KM between oil changes, however it seems to make sense to me that the more often you change the oil the less wear there will be on the engine.. I'm sure there is a good arguement against that statement, but ultimately owners will decide for themselves what intervals to choose.

I used to like BMW service lights where the service intervals depened not only on KM but also on other factors that are just as important.

I choose to believe that LPG will not wear out my engine any faster than petrol, I'm slightly inclined to believe that it will wear less on LPG.. but, and this is important. Surely there are a lot of other factors that are far more important than simply the fuel type. Hell, I'd even say that on a 100,000 km + engine the way it's been driven and serviced up to that point is much more important.. that's just my opinion.

I guess it's an arguement that could go on forever. Personally I'd be reluctant to fit LPG on a newer car (say, less than 3 years old), not because I think it would cause any problems but just because I think that it would be problematic in the event of warranty claims. I had enough problem with Toyota getting a repair done to a 1 year old Yaris (not lpg), in the end the service manager in Khon Kaen told me my warranty was in Chiang Mai and not in Khon Kaen, of course he was wrong but that didn't help when we were broken down in Khon Kaen with a 13,000 baht repair bill at teh Toyota servcie centre and had already spent 2 nights in a hotel whilst the messed around with it... no I have no faith in warranty in Thailand.

I continue to be impressed with my LPG installation, I have done about 4000 km now since installation and it's costing me well under half what it did to run on regular 91.

Another point, if you have a 10 year old car, perhaps the question of damage done by running Gasohol in an car never intended for it may be much more of an issue than that of LPG. I'm not saying it will damage it at all, but I had suffered a lot of damage to the fuel system my classic mercedes when I accidentally fiilled it with Gasohol. I wish I could get LPG fitted to that car.

Edited October 27, 2012 by technologybytes

[welshboy454]

Hi first post so please be gentle.- Good thread -I have been researching this topic and found an interesting study here

http://www.slideshare.net/ucsp/experimental-study-of-the-effects-of-lpg-on-spark-ignition-engine-performance

It is an experimental study showing the exhaust gas temperature at 2800 rpm on petrol and lpg.

The graphs show the LPG temperatures rising significantly at 100kmh and 120kmh but please bear in mind this was a 1985 engined car with probably lower gearing ratio.

Read somewhere that Valve seat recession is significant above 3000 rpm irrespective of fuel.

Empirical evidence of taxi drivers from Australia UK and Thailand reporting close to 1,000,000 kms on lpg.

Saw a graph of urban rpm which seemed to be upper 90 percentage is in 1000 to 2000 rpm band.

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=112611

Conclusion I reach is keep rpm low.

[WarpSpeed]

I definitely noticed my engines felt tighter after lengthy rides on the highway at high RPM's..

Edited December 14, 2013 by WarpSpeed

[A1Str8]

I don't know.

[welshboy454]

Hi,

This link explains the cause of Valve seat recession very well- supports the reasoning of keeping rpm low .Speed causes an additional fuel load on the engine because air resistance is not a straight line as speed increases but follows the square of the speed . The extra fuel burned causes extra heat. .http://oldschool.co.nz/2011/forum/index.php?/topic/20751-valve-seat-recession-explained/

Driving style is the key- Boy racers should avoid lpg as flooring the throttle through the gears is bad.

I have set the LPG controller to switch over to petrol at 2,500 rpm and find I hardly burn much more petrol but have petrol performance available when I need it in short bursts eg overtaking.

[sawadee1947]

I was asking about 2hand cars! As an example, a 10 year old Passat with 200k on the clock, LPG-kit installed 5 years ago, so logically about 100k km on gas, how much damage has that done to the engine??

Not an expert, but I believe it damages the engine. I think it runs hotter and engine less lubricated.

I have diesel, would never want gas. Have plenty of power, and good fuel economy

Actually LPG engines stay better lubricated than petrol or diesel engines because the oil doesn't get

contaminated with LPG as it's a gas, unlike petrol and diesel which are liquids and deteriorate engine oil

as they mix through the cylinder bores.

Therefore the oil will last longer and the engine will suffer less wear.

Also, because LPG is a gas it doesn't create carbon deposits inside the engine where as petrol and diesel

does so an LPG engine will run cleaner and therefore have a longer life expectancy.

This is what Ive been told(above) by a lpg specialist in the UK.....Ive been running cars for years on lpg in the UK...The only issues Ive had is with Lambada sensors packing in.......

LAMBADA ??? Have I to dance when I use LPG ? Or do you mean LAMDA sensor