Sin Sod Question Please Advise

[htownguy]

Hello I have a question and could use some advise. I am in my mid thirties and I have been involed with a thai lady for several months now. I went to Thailand a few months ago and met her, her family and daughter. She lives in Northeast Thailand and has a college degree. I am trijng to understand Thai culture as it is very different than the west. I am going to Thailand next month to get engaged to her. My customs are that the brides family normally takes care of this however I know this is different than in Thailand. She is asking for $200,000 baht and 5 gold baht for a engagement ceromony. I am currently filling for a K1/K2 Visa for her and her child to move to america and get married in the states in 90 days. I just want to make sure I am not being taken advantage of. If she has been married before should Drowy for Sin Sod be payed again? Should I discuss the amount with her family. I am not being cheap but according to hours of research trying to understand this

How Much Should I Be Paying For Sin Sod?

This depends on six factors, as listed and discussed below:

1. Family Name
   
2. Education College Degree
   
3. Prior Marital Status Divorced
   
4. Dependants One Child
   
5. Job Good Job
   
6. Age Mid Thirties
   

Should I accept the Drowy and Sin Sod or Talk to her family because accorrdind to Miay Mai no Drowy or Sin Sod should be paid. Thanks for looking everyone.

[kurnell]

Dollars or baht? If baht then what she is asking is 300k less than my mate, who is getting married in November...excluding the gold.

[htownguy]

This is in baht, I am getting engaged to her next month.

[althemighty]

There should be no dowry for someone who has married before though if the money is just show money and the parents are going to give it back or use it for the cost of the wedding then it is not so bad. You have no chance of getting the gold back and by asking for so much gold it looks like they are going to milk you for as much as they can. You need to find out if they respect you or just want to get as much out of you as they can before you agree to anything as having inlaws that have no respect for you and just think your an ATM will ruin your relationship with your girl. You really need to build a relationship with the inlaws before you agree to sinsod.

[Sharp]

Hello I have a question and could use some advise. I am in my mid thirties and I have been involed with a thai lady for several months now. I went to Thailand a few months ago and met her, her family and daughter. She lives in Northeast Thailand and has a college degree. I am trijng to understand Thai culture as it is very different than the west. I am going to Thailand next month to get engaged to her. My customs are that the brides family normally takes care of this however I know this is different than in Thailand. She is asking for $200,000 baht and 5 gold baht for a engagement ceromony. I am currently filling for a K1/K2 Visa for her and her child to move to america and get married in the states in 90 days. I just want to make sure I am not being taken advantage of. If she has been married before should Drowy for Sin Sod be payed again? Should I discuss the amount with her family. I am not being cheap but according to hours of research trying to understand this

How Much Should I Be Paying For Sin Sod?

This depends on six factors, as listed and discussed below:

1. Family Name
   
2. Education College Degree
   
3. Prior Marital Status Divorced
   
4. Dependants One Child
   
5. Job Good Job
   
6. Age Mid Thirties
   

Should I accept the Drowy and Sin Sod or Talk to her family because accorrdind to Miay Mai no Drowy or Sin Sod should be paid. Thanks for looking everyone.

Agree to it as to be honest you should receive it back after the ceremony ....

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

[ThaidDown]

Not going to get into any discussion as to whether or not sin sod should or should not be paid by a foreigner on principle, but will comment as follows...

Sin sod is paid on the wedding day, not on engagement. A gift of gold jewellery on engagement is old style custom (usually not an engagement ring).

If she has been married before no sin sod should be paid.

As to how much or whether it will be returned, ie just for show on the wedding day should be decided by discussion amongst all parties.

Edit..spelling

Edited October 14, 2012 by ThaidDown

[ThailandBert]

I didn't nor would have paid a Satang and in fact my Father in law gave me 6 Rai of land after a year of being married. Some people do pay a lot of money and a lot refuse. My belief in it is that it is given for show at the wedding ceremony and returned after. If you are marrying in the States then there will be no need for a show of wealth.

There are post after posts about this subject if you look.

Just my 2 satangs worth !

[htownguy]

She said the gold was for her but after engagement I could keep the gold.

[ThailandBert]

As they say if you are happy paying it then go ahead and pay it. Up to you as they say here.

[David48]

To the OP htownboy ... welcome to Thai Visa.

The first question to ask is have you read the topic directly above yours titled Sin Sod - An Explanation ? It's a clickable link.

It has had 37,000 odd viewers and is an invaluable resource for your question.

As for directly answering your question.

If a lady has been married before then typically no sin sot is payed as it was paid at the time of the first marriage. If it was not paid then, then you are being weak by paying it now.

Don't mistake weakness for kindness, so be strong but also generous with important matters.

There should never really be a request for 'an amount' of Sin Sot.

The gift, if it is paid is offered, not asked for.

Edited October 14, 2012 by David48

[David48]

^^ Following on from above

Normally someone discusses the payment of SinSot on your behalf. Failing that, your gf might do that ... or she might simply pass on the feelings of her parents and it's up to you.

My gut feeling is that you are being asked for an excessive amount of gold as Thai's typically ask for things in matching sets.

For example ... 200,000 Baht and 2 Baht of gold. The request for 5 Baht of gold might be coming from the gf, and not her parents.

One of the things that you do have to maybe work on is the Thai respect and money can not buy respect.

Given your ladies situation above, having been married before and with a kid, typicially no sin sot should be payable.

Just a bit of add-on free advice, strongly consider getting married in Thailand and not the States and definately have a pre-nup done.

[villagefarang]

My first reaction is, you don’t know Thailand or your potential bride well enough to get married yet. Sounds like the beginning of another long tragic tale of misunderstandings and broken dreams.

[Geekfreaklover]

How long have you lived with this woman on a day to day basis?

I'm not talking about chatting on the net, flying over to meet her family, and then being given a bill to marry her.

The money is not the issue here. It sounds like you don't actually know her. That is the issue.

[Pormax]

There are a lot of sensible replies to your OP.

It all boils down to an individuals opinion and what you can accept. There is no right or wrong.

A plus factor as far as how the family value her is that she has a college degree so in their eyes could get work and good pay which inevitably if she did not marry again and stayed at home this would benefit ALL the family.

.

You did say that she was previously married and has a daughter. I see that the daughter will live with you both and therefore you will be paying a lot more over the years for her education etc. This should be taken into account and discussed with the family when negotiations take place regarding the amount you pay.

The sinsod money, if the family are relatively poor, would be used for the wedding or in your case as the wedding will be held later in the USA, the engagement party. This is kind of unusual as money is normally only paid at the time of marraige.

Unfortunately in Thailand things are much different than say UK or USA. In the later families like to have boys to carry the name forward but other than that no preference to what sex the children. In Thailand families want girls for two reasons. 1. the girls often tend to be more caring towards their parents and will help out financially if they can and care for them in their later years. 2. They can ask for sinsod when they marry so in a way are like the buffalo. There to make money.

I do believe that Thailand is changing very slowly regarding the sinsod payment but from my experience this is not yet happening in the North East area and payment of a higher sinsod amount is expected to be paid by a Farang. The poorer the family the more they will ask for.

I too live in the North East and in our village a 22 yr old Thai marrying a 16 year old Thai schoolgirl has to pay 50,000B and 2Baht gold. Inevitably the boy's parents will pay.

I too think the 5Baht gold is excessive, whereas this is sometimes given back to the bride, don't guarantee on it,.2 Baht would be about right.

I suppose I should add that if you can afford the money then by all means have discussions/negotiations with the family to lower the amount to give but don't make it a big problem between you, your wife and her family and start of married life with bad feelings.

Anyway just my thoughts on this, helpful or not!!

Best of luck in the future, hope you have a very happy life together.

[David48]

You are getting some excellent advise above from men, who, like you, have walked that road before.

Please take the time to read and re-read the above.

[beano2274]

Never paid money at the Engagement, actually got the missus a ring (cost around 17000baht) which MIL looked at and chose for her. MIL wanted nothing from me, and has never asked for anything.

[TheWalkingMan]

All very good advice from the posters.

[kurnell]

This is in baht, I am getting engaged to her next month.

Ah yes, a daughter. Well spotted. 50% discount at least

[poanoi]

Prior Marital Status Divorced

Well that says it all, she was already given a sin sod,

none pays a sin sod for an ex wife

[David48]

.

I have replied your PM, so check your 'Inbox' here at the Forum.

.

[Chittychangchang]

When it came to sin sod for my wife i agreed that displaying my dozen platinum cards at the ceremony was enough,

They agreed as it was all just for show anyway.

[transam]

NO CASH, please beware or you will crash.

[rgs2001uk]

How long have you lived with this woman on a day to day basis?

I'm not talking about chatting on the net, flying over to meet her family, and then being given a bill to marry her.

The money is not the issue here. It sounds like you don't actually know her. That is the issue.

Another mug ready for plucking.

Doesnt know her, the family or Thai culture, hence the need to get the girl married off before the OP smells the coffee.

'I have been involed with a thai lady for several months now"

And you or they are talking about marriage, doesnt smell right to me.

Most Thais I know in Bkk will have known each other for about 6 years prior to any marriage.

The girl is usally about 26-28, the man 28-30, they will have met each other at university, they will both have secured jobs and earned at least one promotion within whichever company they work for.

Compatability issues will have been resolved before a marriage is announced.

Why the need for speed in this case.

"I went to Thailand a few months ago and met her:

How many times have you actually met this woman?

What is she bringing to the marriage?

"her family and daughter"

Speaks volumes.

"She is asking for $200,000 baht and 5 gold"

Who is asking for this, the girl or her mother?

If its the lady in question I would want an explanation as to why.

Ask her to explain the difference in Thailand between, meu mai and meu song, to you that means new or second hand, sorry to be brutal, but these are questions a Thai would ask.

"I just want to make sure I am not being taken advantage of.'

In my opinion you are, but up to you, how desperate are you to be married?

"Should I discuss the amount with her family'

You are goddammed right you should, even better dont discuss it, tell them your terms, if they accept or not, up to them.

1. Prior Marital Status Divorced
   
2. Dependants One Child
   
3. Job Good Job
   
4. Age Mid Thirties
   

#1 above has already been explained to you.

#2 a cause for concern and proof the lady has already been married before and had sin sot paid by the previous husband, why the need to pay it again?

#3, define a good job, teacher at a local school earning 13k per month, or working in Bkk earning 40k per month.

#4, passed her sell by date already in Thailand even if single, the fact that she comes with baggage is of even more concern.

To the OP, how many times have you been to Thailand?

How many Thai ladies have you been involved with?

How did you meet this lady?

[doontp]

I read that it's up to the groom as to what he wants to give.

I also read that it's not proper for the bride's parents to ask for a particular amount, although this rule does not seem to be highly respected. Falangs usually are asked for higher amounts because it's assumed we can afford it.

The man, ultimately, is in control. The man makes an offer and they decide whether or not to accept.

Here is my personal experience: I'm half Thai/half American, but I'm always regarded as a wealthy falang.

My gf's father requested 50,000 dollars and I immediatley gave a ridiculous smirk. He then said 1,000,000 baht and I said no. He asked how much money I had and I refused to clearly answer. He then said 600,000 baht, a 5 baht gold necklace and a wedding in the village. I agreed knowing in my mind they will never get a single baht from me. This negotiation was done in front of many villagers and I quickly became wise that the father was under pressure from his fellow villagers. This was a face thing for the father. My verbal agreement pleased everyone and resulted in cheers.

Afterwards, I told my gf I will buy her a 5 baht gold necklace, which is in addition to the engagement ring I had already given her. I also told her there will be no village wedding, instead we'll get married in Bkk and her immediate relatives will take a bus to Bkk. Villagers simply regard a wedding as a time and place for them to get drunk. All the men in her family begin drinking at 7am and they always want me to buy them beer and cigarettes. I'm sick of it and the gf knows it and agrees.

I showed my gf 600,000 baht cash and I took a pic of her with the money. I told her she can show this to her parents and that's as close as they'll get to it.

Also, my gf's father immediately asked about the value of the engagement ring. I was offended. I am open with my feelings because they need to learn what's wrong and respect me. I demand it.

My gf has the option to walk away from me if she doesn't agree. I'm happy with or without her.

In short, you are in control. You tell them what you want and are willing to offer. It's up to you.

[jbrain]

I didn't nor would have paid a Satang and in fact my Father in law gave me 6 Rai of land after a year of being married.

Good to see that a foreigner can own land in Thailand these days.

[richard_smith237]

One of my friends got married a Thai lady from a respectable family, his Wife had attended a good high school and good Universities (Rangsit for her Degree and Thammarsat for her Masters). The Wedding was a large affair of over 1000 people in one of Bangkok's top hotel Grand Ball rooms. Guests of the FIL included his friends in politics and business.

The couple we are of similar age, he 34 and her 31 when they married. Both have good jobs he with an Int'l company and her an MD of her large family business, plus runs (is starting off) her own business.

The Sinsod was 400,000 baht, it was accepted at the Wedding ceremony and later returned to the couple (to him).

The agreement was made before the wedding that the value of sin-sod was not to be mentioned, financially related issues and what may be interpreted as showing off or face were not to be discussed. It was made clear that this was a meeting of cultures and both the Bride and Groom wanted a respectful wedding and any discussion of money was considered crude and had no place beyond 'going through the motions' i.e. sin-sod presentation but without the fanfare.

The relationship between my friend and his future Inlaws started off a little rocky as it was apparent that their preference was for their daughter to date a well-to-do Thai man.

Through stubbornness, bloody mindedness, firmness but also with plenty of compromise at the right times the relationships grew to the point now where my friend is highly respected by his Inlaws with whom both he and his family (when they visit) get on extremely well.

It is apparent that this mutual respect has developed through him being firm but fair in is views and what he can and will accept.

Any mixed marriage is a meeting of cultures rather than an adaptation from one culture into another.

It therefor stands to reason that by being firm but fair the Op will be respected. It also stands to reason that by allowing himself to give in too readily or be taken advantage of is not a good foundation from which to build a healthy and mutual level of respect.

OP: As many have said, it is not the norm to give Sin-Sod for a lady who has had children or has already been married. Those who do have fallen foul of misinformation or weakness. IMO those who have given Sin-Sod and not had it returned have not been in a relationship where mutual respect trumps financial gain.

That said - there is no harm in giving a small but appropriate amount as a gift if you wish you gain a few points, just don't over do it and don't give of the impression that you are foolish with your resources.

[David48]

^^ To doontp and richard_smith237 ... two excellent replies there.

I've learnt something by reading them.

Thanks for taking the time to rely.

[MobileContent]

1) Met a 51year old Thai lady who runs a noodle shop in our village. She wanted me to find her a farang with Sin Sod of 200,000, 5 Baht gold and build her a bigger house.

2) Met last year another Thai woman (bar related) who dated a farang from France. I told the French guy stay away from Sin Sod as she works in a bar and has two children. I also warned him not to finance the restaurant that the monther in law wanted to have but he burned 300,000 baht into the restaurant. The MIL wanted have Sin Sod of 300k for their bar girl in her 30's and when he decided not to pay the money, the lady broke off with him and she found a new guy from the Internet that setup for her a bank account, give her an ATM card and promised to deposit 20k per month in her A/C.

3) Met another Thai woman that has been married to an American for the past 6 years. My FIL build them a house at 600k but she asked my FIL to bill 1 million Baht. Whenever the hubby is back in texas, she plays around with her Thai boyfriend. She had an operation recently that cost 40k but she billed her hubby 150k. Hubby so far give her a house, 400,000 Baht Sin Sod, Toyota Virgo and 30k monthly allowance.

4) Met another German farang that refuses to pay Sin Sod as he doesn't wanted to get screwed. GF is 40 years and he is 55 but he bought her a hosue for 2.5 million Baht in Sakon Nakhon, 2 cars, 2 Honda Click's, 1 Tuk Tuk which I know off. She has two children's and I told him one day you will be broke. His income dropped over the past 1 year and she is often now online chatting to other guys.

I am not against paying Sin Sod but not for a second hand product.

I paid 200k SInsod of which I got back 50k and the 150k was used for a great party. The family is very small and she only has a small brother which is 9 years old. I sponsor him currently on a private school. I did build a house and if I have to walk away from it it wouldn't hurt me. I still own a condo in Bangkok.

I was also asked before to pay a big amount of Sin Sod but I walked away from her. The negotiation was done where also members of Pattaya bar scene were present at that village meeting. Most married Thai wife's in our village have a guy from their time when they worked at the bars in Pattaya, Phuket or Samui.

When my Mrs told her parents that she loves me and doesn't care about money or village talk, the parents agreed. I am very happy with my in laws and how things developed in the past 2 years.

edit due to typos

Edited October 17, 2012 by MobileContent

[David48]

To htownguy ... you had a lot of excellent replies here ... any thoughts you would like to share with us in return?

You get my reply message to your email?

[endure]

I have a Thai friend whose 23 year old son will be marrying the daughter of a couple who own a jewelery shop and manufactory in Bangkok. He's expecting to have to negotiate upwards of a million baht dowry.