Britain, Scotland Sign Deal For Independence Referendum

[7by7]

A threat to the UK's seat on the Security Council?

An opinion piece in the Washington Post says that some speculate, and you take that as conclusive proof!

If all of the SNP's arguments are based on such flimsy 'evidence' then should they win, the Scottish people are in for a very hard time indeed.

[theblether]

Excuse me......it's not been that long since I was being guffawed at on here for bringing the issue up, then lo and behold I provided one of the papers that discussed the issue in detail, including the EU proposal to amalgamate the votes under UK and French control under EU direction.

There are plenty of people out there discussing the threat to the Veto, and you can't get much higher profile in the US than the Washington Post. There's a Hare running here, and it wasn't me that released it.

There are plenty of Englishmen who would love to see the Scots leave the Union, the whole purpose of me pointing out the Veto issue is to point out that if you think that you will sail blithely on without consequence in the International community, you are wrong.

So be careful what you ask for, cos sometimes you get it. Even Folium knows that.....he is switched on to World geopolitical events and even in his last post he alluded to the fact that there is change mooted at the UN.

[7by7]

The Washington Post may be a respected source, but you are forgetting that the piece you refer to is just one man's opinion. Furthermore, he merely states that "some speculate that what remained of Britain could lose its seat on the U.N. Security Council." He does not say to whom he refers.

Yes, there is pressure to reform the UNSC and to increase the number of permanent members with veto power; but it the need for such reform was first mooted in 1992 and has nothing to do with Scottish independence. It is to do with African states wanting, rightly in my opinion, to be represented.

Report on Security Council Reform Meeting 10 April 2012

In summary

There is still very little agreement among the Member States about how to reform but there is one common theme: it is basically unanimously accepted that it is imperative to have a greater amount of African representation on the Council. Because of this it could be seen throughout this meeting that many Member States appealed to the African Group’s plight, seeking commonality with them in order to potentially garner support

Brazil, Germany, India and Japan also feel that they have a role to play and a case for permanent membership.

Whether this means an expansion of permanent members or the replacement of some remains to be seen; but whether or not Scotland remains part of the UK is a very minor consideration.

Whether or not you consider Wikipedia to be a reliable source, this article makes interesting reading.

Edited to remove typos.

Edited November 2, 2012 by 7by7

[folium]

Excuse me......it's not been that long since I was being guffawed at on here for bringing the issue up, then lo and behold I provided one of the papers that discussed the issue in detail, including the EU proposal to amalgamate the votes under UK and French control under EU direction.

There are plenty of people out there discussing the threat to the Veto, and you can't get much higher profile in the US than the Washington Post. There's a Hare running here, and it wasn't me that released it.

There are plenty of Englishmen who would love to see the Scots leave the Union, the whole purpose of me pointing out the Veto issue is to point out that if you think that you will sail blithely on without consequence in the International community, you are wrong.

So be careful what you ask for, cos sometimes you get it. Even Folium knows that.....he is switched on to World geopolitical events and even in his last post he alluded to the fact that there is change mooted at the UN.

Less of the "even", thank you...

Your trumpeted piece from the WP has been ridiculed by the SNP and would appear to be have been written by a participant of the much-loved American idea of "Bring your kids to work" days.

Basic schoolboy/girl errors such as SNP withdrawal from NATO and an army of 8-10,000 indeed (re the latter the Braveheart militia would struggle to raise half that number, perhaps Salmond should turn to the Atholl Highlanders as they do put on a good show, but may be deemed to be too posh)!

You claim that the article highlights the idea of "the EU proposal to amalgamate the votes under UK and French control under EU direction". Please direct me to where the article mentions this, the closest I can find is the line: "some speculate that what remained of Britain could lose its seat on the U.N. Security Council", all in all a very different concept, with the use of the word "speculate" being moot.

Reform of the Security Council requires the agreement of at least two-thirds of UN member states and that of all the permanent members of the UNSC, who enjoy the veto right. The only change to date was in 1965, and the recent reform campaign has now been running for over 20 years. Don't hold your breath on seismic changes anytime soon, and the inclusion or not of 5 million souls and some fine grouse moors will make little difference. The wheels of the UN grind slower than a very slow glacier and as I have said before turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

IMHO Scottish independence anytime soon is a long shot notwithstanding the bluster from Salmond (who somewhat reminds me of Neil Kinnock, the Welsh windbag). At the end of the day who would actually benefit from said independence apart from a power trip for Salmond and David Cameron (another politician of Scottish ancestry, boy you really churn them out, Blair, Brown, Cameron and now MacShane). The Tories would be very happy to be shot of Scotland as they have little chance of winning seats north of the border and it would almost guarantee perpetual Tory rule of the remainder UK.

[theblether]

^^ Would anybody like to translate that?...........my hyperbole filter has clogged up.

Incidentally Folium.......

http://www.scribd.com/doc/58632656/Europe-s-Veto-s-Power-Britain-France-the-United-States-and-the-Reform-of-the-UN-Security-Council

That's the second time I've sent you that link, if I need to send it a third time I get to keep you and put you on my mantlepiece.

Edited November 2, 2012 by theblether

[MAJIC]

Maybe if you send us some more subsidies we may agree to stay........but it better be a good offer.

No doubt Salmond thinks he can work the Double,a whopping big gain for Scotland if they vote for Independence. or more Subsidies if the vote is no,to Independence. I don't believe Salmond has calculated,he may be wrong on both counts. And his Double chance of making big money,may turn into a Doubler whammy.

[theblether]

Maybe if you send us some more subsidies we may agree to stay........but it better be a good offer.

No doubt Salmond thinks he can work the Double,a whopping big gain for Scotland if they vote for Independence. or more Subsidies if the vote is no,to Independence. I don't believe Salmond has calculated,he may be wrong on both counts. And his Double chance of making big money,may turn into a Doubler whammy.

Boys among men Sir, boys among men.

Cameron is panicking because he knows what's at stake, and you need to be aware of what is being left unsaid more than what is being said.

It's a coming down the road, and you guys are in for a BIG shock.

[7by7]

http://www.scribd.co...ecurity-Council

As you have to log in, i.e. join, to read the paper, I haven't read it. But the paper is entitled "Europe's Veto Power" and the page you linked to says

This paper argues for reforms of the UN Security Council membership

So the logical conclusion is that the paper argues for an EU role on the Security Council; nothing to do with the UK's position should Scotland leave the Union. However, if you can provide a quote from the paper saying that the UK's position is threatened by Scottish Independence, then at least you will have one source to back up your assertion. An academic paper from an organisation totally unassociated with the UN and funded largely by the German government, but at least a source.

Have you read the Report on Security Council Reform Meeting 10 April 2012? This is an actual report on the latest UN meeting about SC reform; no mention of Scottish independence there!

So what's coming down the road? What shock are we in for?

The UK being kicked off the UNSC? Unlikely, unless it comes as part of the overall reforms that are being discussed in the UN; in which case it will happen whether Scotland remains in the Union or not.

The UK being kicked out of the EU? Fantasy, although there are many both sides of the border who dearly wish it would happen!

The UK being kicked out of NATO? Don't make me laugh.

So, tell us; what shock is coming for the rest of the UK?

The shock will be to the Scottish taxpayer.

• No more subsidy from England
  
• Foreign embassies and consulates to pay for.
  
• EU budget contribution to make
  
• It's own defence budget to fund.
  
• Loss of jobs and subsequent increase in benefit payments when Faslane and other UK bases are closed or moved
  
• Loss of other defence and UK government contracts; more unemployment; not me saying that, but Iain McKenzie, a Scottish MP (source).
  

If Scotland was to become an Independent nation, with no Westminster representation, there are no guarantees that existing UK contracts with the Clyde would continue.

Why would the UK Government choose to outsource to Scotland and to the Clyde instead of England, Wales or Northern Island? It is time the Scottish Government come clean about the implications Scottish separation will have on the Scottish defence sector.

Job security in the Scottish defence sector will have a direct impact on families here in Inverclyde. I’m sure, like me, constituents will be asking the SNP West of Scotland MSP Stuart McMillan what will happen to Faslane employees if the Scottish people decide to vote in favour of separation.

It is time the Scottish people are given the truth about what it really means to break up United Kingdom.”

Yes; a lot is being left unsaid. Mostly by Salmond and the SNP!

Edited November 2, 2012 by 7by7

[theblether]

No.....by David Cameron, there is a fundamental flaw in your argument. Foreign governments will not openly discuss the possibility of Scotland becoming Independent as they cannot be seen to influence the election in any way, just the same way as you will never hear Cameron endorsing a candidate in the US elections. It's against protocol......and it's already been pointed out this week that the EU are prepared to pass a legal opinion on the separation of Scotland, but they cannot do so without the request coming from the current UK member state.

I'm telling you, it's what's being left unsaid that's going to bring the shocks!!!

ps.......and I'm serious.

[7by7]

Any legal opinion given by the EU would be on Scottish membership of the EU; the EU has nothing to do with and no influence over membership of the UNSC.

You say that the UK's position on the UNSC is under threat should Scotland become independent; but you can't provide any credible source to back up this claim because no one will mention it as doing so may influence the referendum!

How come you know about this so called threat if it is being kept so secret that even the UN committee on UNSC reform doesn't know about it?

Strange that you should be so obsessed with convincing us it exists; if it does then is it not an argument for maintaining the Union? I thought you supported Scottish independence!

We know what is being left unsaid by Salmond; the dire effects on the Scottish economy and Scottish jobs should Scotland become independent.

But what is being left unsaid by Cameron? You imply that you know; so why not tell us?

Edited November 2, 2012 by 7by7

[theblether]

You're crossing arguments here, so for the purpose of clarity, the reason I brought up the Veto issue was to point out the danger of Scottish Independence weakening the UK at the top table, you in particular and many others didn't have a clue about this Veto issue until I brought it up, so forgive me if I don't get involved in an argument with instant Google experts.

Also forgive me for pointing out an uncomfortable truth to many of you, that report in April is not worth the paper it's written on. It's based upon the circumstances of today, not tomorrow, and certainly has not taken into consideration the break up of the UK. Political opponents and opportunists will move against the UK when the time is right, not before, but already there are plenty of murmurings of discontent.

I couldn't care less about the Veto, let's see what you and your fellow Englishmen say when it comes under attack, as it surely will. You'll start to reconsider your premature celebrations at the Jocks leaving the UK when you see the price England has to pay.

As for the economy that you predict will be so dire, we'll see how dire it is when the Corporation Tax level in Scotland is 15% I told you already this fight is all about control of Corporation Tax policy but none of you picked it up. I pointed out to you all, in very clear terms, that even if we lose the Independence debate, if Scotland can get control of Corporation Tax policy Alex Salmond will regard it as a massive victory.

I've already pointed out to you that the UK Government cannot pull the same stunt it pulled in 1979 again, promising a better deal without details and then reneging.........that is part of what is currently unsaid, you can guarantee the deal for staying part of the Union will be offered before the Referendum, and it will be written in political blood. The terms of the offer I predict will shock you. I also predicted that the Referendum will be lost and we Independents will have to content ourselves with the deal offered, and that deal may be enough to kill the SNP's Independence goal in the longer term. I've also stated that if the deal is reneged upon, that will set in motion a move to an eventual second referendum which we will win.

However, to make things particularly current for you, in relation to things being left unsaid...........the reason why David Cameron will not request clarification as to the status of Scotland within the EU is because he knows the answer. The EU will provide a clear and direct path for Scotland to gain full EU membership. By doing so they will validate Alex Salmonds contention that EU membership will be automatic, that will be a boon for Salmond and a disaster for the opponents of Independence.

So what's being left unsaid in this case?...............the Tories can't admit they are scared to ask, as they know the answer already.

Just wait till one bright spring day in the not too distant future when a letter arrives on Camerons desk asking him to request clarification from the EU, he can't win, to ask will defeat him, to not ask will make him look churlish and hand ammunition to the SNP.

Oh dear, not as smart as cabbage looking eh?

[folium]

^^ Would anybody like to translate that?...........my hyperbole filter has clogged up.

Incidentally Folium.......

http://www.scribd.co...ecurity-Council

That's the second time I've sent you that link, if I need to send it a third time I get to keep you and put you on my mantlepiece.

Sorry you were unable to respond to my points.

Thank you for the link to the TA article yet again, and indeed I have read it as the TA normally produce interesting articles. Have you read it?

The crux of their article is a wish list for one form of reform of the UNSC, but as has been highlighted endlessly in earlier posts this is nothing new and there is little likelihood of the logjam being cleared anytime soon to enable reform of the UNSC (which IMHO should happen in some shape probably via enlargement, to reflect the present rather than 1945). The key line in your article comes on Page 9:

"process innovation has turned out to be easier than structural change...."

I cannot find any mention of Scotland, absent or otherwise from the UK, so as far as I can see this article is somewhat irrelevant in relation to your argument.

So we have an apparently irrelevant piece from the TA, a laughable op-ed from the Washington Post, a reluctance to address points raised by myself and 7by7, and now a littlle"dance of the seven veils", will he show or will he not? All thrilling stuff but does little to actually debate the issues.

[theblether]

Sorry.....I answered your points in the post proceeding yours. It's quite clear.

that report in April is not worth the paper it's written on. It's based upon the circumstances of today, not tomorrow, and certainly has not taken into consideration the break up of the UK. Political opponents and opportunists will move against the UK when the time is right, not before, but already there are plenty of murmurings of discontent.

However, to make things particularly current for you, in relation to things being left unsaid...........the reason why David Cameron will not request clarification as to the status of Scotland within the EU is because he knows the answer. The EU will provide a clear and direct path for Scotland to gain full EU membership. By doing so they will validate Alex Salmonds contention that EU membership will be automatic, that will be a boon for Salmond and a disaster for the opponents of Independence.

So what's being left unsaid in this case?...............the Tories can't admit they are scared to ask, as they know the answer already.

Just wait till one bright spring day in the not too distant future when a letter arrives on Camerons desk asking him to request clarification from the EU, he can't win, to ask will defeat him, to not ask will make him look churlish and hand ammunition to the SNP.

Oh dear, not as smart as cabbage looking eh?

I've already pointed out to you that the UK Government cannot pull the same stunt it pulled in 1979 again, promising a better deal without details and then reneging.........that is part of what is currently unsaid, you can guarantee the deal for staying part of the Union will be offered before the Referendum, and it will be written in political blood. The terms of the offer I predict will shock you.

As for the economy that you predict will be so dire, we'll see how dire it is when the Corporation Tax level in Scotland is 15% I told you already this fight is all about control of Corporation Tax policy but none of you picked it up. I pointed out to you all, in very clear terms, that even if we lose the Independence debate, if Scotland can get control of Corporation Tax policy Alex Salmond will regard it as a massive victory.

Edited November 2, 2012 by theblether

[folium]

So all the hectoring about the TA article was unnecessary and as you agree the piece was irrelevant anyway. Strange way to go about being taken seriously.

You appear to have nothing to back up your presumption that the UK (with or without Scotland) is likely to lose/cede its UNSC veto.....

Please explain why the UK should hand control over to Scotland re Corporation Tax. As per this BBC article, N>Ireland is not too impressed by Holyrood's "blundering" into this issue:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-15655820

Re your presumption of automatic EU entry if and when Scotland goes independent, looks like Spain is none too impressed (not surprisingly as separatism in Spain has been a real issue rather than just an opportunistic power grab), see below:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/oct/24/scotland-eu-membership-spain

The joke at the end of the day is that most Scots are too smart to fall for Salmond's patter and will vote with their wallets rather than their "Brave-hearts". So all the squabbling about automatic EU membership, Faslane etc are redundant unless Salmond can actually convince the majority of Scotland to sign up for his coronation.

[smokie36]

Well folium most of us are able to see beyond Alex Salmond and well into what may well be a brave new dawn for our country.

You would be surprised if you ever bothered to visit at just how well educated the locals are. We will vote on a multitude of issues and a particular personality will be low down on most lists.

Sorry to have to disappoint you, naturally.

[folium]

Well folium most of us are able to see beyond Alex Salmond and well into what may well be a brave new dawn for our country.

You would be surprised if you ever bothered to visit at just how well educated the locals are. We will vote on a multitude of issues and a particular personality will be low down on most lists.

Sorry to have to disappoint you, naturally.

Looks like we agree on voter motivation. All the present noise and fuss is irrelevant unless Salmond can convince the majority of Scots (or at least residents of Scotland) that independence makes sense, and as you said in an earlier post you are as yet undecided and will wait to see the financial implications of independence before deciding how to vote.

Having worked with Scots most of my life and as I qualify as a voter in this referendum I can assure you that I have a very clear understanding of the ability of Scotland's finest....

Sorry to disappoint you, naturally!

Nemo me impune lacessit

Edited November 2, 2012 by folium

[theblether]

Well folium most of us are able to see beyond Alex Salmond and well into what may well be a brave new dawn for our country.

You would be surprised if you ever bothered to visit at just how well educated the locals are. We will vote on a multitude of issues and a particular personality will be low down on most lists.

Sorry to have to disappoint you, naturally.

Looks like we agree on voter motivation. All the present noise and fuss is irrelevant unless Salmond can convince the majority of Scots (or at least residents of Scotland) that independence makes sense, and as you said in an earlier post you are as yet undecided and will wait to see the financial implications of independence before deciding how to vote.

Having worked with Scots most of my life and as I qualify as a voter in this referendum I can assure you that I have a very clear understanding of the ability of Scotland's finest....

Sorry to disappoint you, naturally!

Nemo me impune lacessit

How can you say the democratic process is irrelevant?

Also you are confirming that you are currently resident and on the voters roll in Scotland?

It makes no difference to us what the Northern Irish think, do this debate a favour and don't bring NI politics into it, the Northern Irish don't have a dog in this fight, as much as some of them would love to have.

Also Scots are already EU citizens, the Spanish will find it impossible, note the word, impossible to block the democratic will of current EU citizens. That's all bluster and David Cameron is scared to ask for clarification as he knows it.

There are a multitude of sources discussing the potential loss of the Veto.........I don't need to prove anything, it is an irrelevance to Scotland, we don't expect the Veto to follow us, the English will be gutted if they lose it as they have a view of themselves that far outstrips the reality.

.........and finally, this hyperbole......this Braveheart talk.......what do you think your trying to achieve by using Hollywood cliches in this debate? Is that an attempt at trolling? I regard it as such........every time you are undermined in your argument you reach for the hyperbole. Poor form.

So now you have declared that you are a qualified voter in this referendum.......I look forward to you confirming your current residence status and place on the Scottish voters roll.

[7by7]

The Blether:_

The UNSC veto was not a concern until you brought it up; because it is a non issue as far as Scottish independence is concerned.! Any threat to the UK's veto will come from the reform of the UNSC that has been under discussion since 1992.

You dismiss these discussions as irrelevant because they don't mention Scotland; but they don't mention Scotland because you are not that important. It is Scotland that will lose it's place on the world stage if it leaves the Union; not the rest of the UK. I have previously used the example of Russia after the break up of the Soviet Union; but you chose to ignore that.

You say that the report of the UN meeting I linked to is irrelevant as the meeting occurred in April 2012; yet the document you use as evidence of your assertion was published in 2011! (The document is copyright 2011) I note that, despite my earlier request, you have not quoted the part of that document which mentions a specific threat to the UK's position following Scottish independence; presumably because it doesn't exist?

You say that there " are a multitude of sources discussing the potential loss of the Veto (following Scottish independence)" yet the only source you have provided which actually mentions it is the opinion of a journalist who says that there is speculation! Credible source, please; put up or shut up!

Yes, I have used Google for my research; why not? That's what it's for. That it has turned up evidence showing your UN veto threat to be nonsense is not my fault. Perhaps you should have researched first too, instead of swallowing Salmond's propaganda.

How will a corporation tax of 15% help when unemployment in an independent Scotland is rocketing due to the loss of defence and other UK government contracts, for example when the Type 26 contract is awarded to Belfast shipyards instead of the Clyde?

If Scotland does remain part of the UK, but sets it's own level of corporation tax, you may attract a few companies to base themselves in Scotland, but how many will offer real, actual jobs and how many will merely be shell companies there to take advantage of the tax rate, offering no real jobs at all? Starbucks in Switzerland is one example of such practice recently in the news.

Why is Cameron panicking over the prospect of an independent Scotland's membership of the EU? I suspect he isn't and the reason he hasn't officially asked is because he already knows the answer and doesn't care one way or the other! But as the Guardian article linked to by folium shows, Scottish membership would not be automatic; it would need the approval of all current member states. Another Salmond lie exposed.

Scotland's currency is a far more important issue, for Scots. Would it retain Sterling, assuming the UK government allow it, and so have it's fiscal policy determined by the Bank of England, or will it join the Euro and have it's fiscal policy determined by Brussels!

As control of one''s currency and fiscal policy is the keystone to independence, neither option would be independence. At best you would simply be swapping fiscal control from London to Brussels.

Another fact Salmond is keeping from the Scottish people!

Edited November 3, 2012 by 7by7

[theblether]

1. I didn't ignore it as I replied to say that the idea of Russia losing it's veto while still being a first tier nuclear power and with a massive standing army was a non starter.

2. Scotland is the same non issue that England is, as far as the UN is concerned, we don't exist, we are the UK. This is becoming a circular argument.......I pointed out that the Veto was under threat, most of you didn't know it and became Instant Googles. If the UK breaks up it will give opponents the perfect chance to launch an attack against the UK's permanent membership of the United Nations Security Council.

For all the bluster here, the bottom line is there are plenty of people discussing the possibility of the UK losing the Veto. Truthfully I can't be bothered with nonsense any more, and not just one journalist, that is patent, total and complete nonsense. I have given you the link twice reference the EU proposal for sharing the Veto with France, if I could be bothered I could pull up numerous sources that discuss this possibility. I can't be bothered, the issue was an illustration of the type of threat to the UK's standing.

3. Show me where I stated at any point that Alex Salmond mentioned this possibility? You can't, as I never quoted him or any of his officials. He could care less about it, just as I could care less, so don't be suggesting I'm falling for propaganda that doesn't exist

4. Corporation Tax at 15% will induce hundreds going on thousands of companies across the border, not just shell companies as you put it, and as long as the shell companies money is going into the Scottish Exchequer, who cares if they are using the country as a tax base only.

5. Your comment about Cameron is garbage, if he knew that the answer was no to automatic EU membership, he would request the information, hold a massive press conference in George Square and announce it. He knows the answer is yes, that's why he's not doing it........have I told you why?

It will be the first time in EU history that CURRENT EU NATIONALS will have DEMOCRATICALLY VOTED to secede from the "parent" country...........there is NO WAY that the EU could refuse membership.

6. We are quite aware of the currency issue, please refrain from insulting our intelligence.

Independence In Europe has been SNP policy for years, we know we must answer to Brussels, I am shocked and astounded that you didn't know that already.

http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2012/oct/independence-will-not-remove-eu-citizens-rights

Keep going with tying yourselves in knots, there are serious people on this issue and quite simply the refusal of Cameron to request clarification from the EU, after the EU OFFERED TO GIVE LEGAL GUIDANCE smacks of deceit.

Any fair minded person reading this would see that to be the case.

Edited November 3, 2012 by theblether

[7by7]

The make up of the UNSC and who has and does not have a veto has been under discussion since 1992. It is you who has tried to make it an issue as far as Scottish independence is concerned. Sorry, but it isn't; as your abject failure to find one single source, other than unattributed speculation mentioned by one journalist, has shown.

Yes, there are discussions regarding the make up of the UNSC; I linked to a report of the latest UN meeting on the subject; but you dismissed it as last April was too long ago!

The UK's place as a permanent member of the security council will be decided on bigger issues than Scottish independence. The apparent inbred inferiority complex of the Scots, which up to now I had assumed to be a myth, may wish it was an issue; but as already said; you're not that important!

If you don't care about this issue, why bring it up in the first place?

The SNP think that Scotland will automatically remain as part of the EU? Maybe, but why does the piece you link to say "an independent Scotland would negotiate the details of our member state status from a position of already being within the European Union." If you're in, what is there to negotiate? Surely the details of your membership will be the same as all the other member states?

The Spanish government seem to disagree with you, as shown in the Guardian piece linked to by folium "Alex Salmond's chaotic attempts to persuade voters he could take an independent Scotland smoothly into the European Union have suffered another setback, after Spain said Scotland would need to "join the queue" and negotiate as a new member state."

So who is right; the SNP or the Spanish government?

You may remain aware of the currency issue; an issue that means an independent Scotland would either remain in thrall to London or become the slave of Brussels; but how many other Scots are? Why is Salmond hiding this?

I listed some of the economic issues before, and will repeat that list here

• No more subsidy from England
  
• Foreign embassies and consulates to pay for.
  
• EU budget contribution to make
  
• It's own defence budget to fund.
  
• Loss of jobs and subsequent increase in benefit payments when Faslane and other UK bases are closed or moved
  
• Loss of other defence and UK government contracts; more unemployment
  

You're saying that a Scottish corporation tax rate of 15% will solve these problems as thousands of companies will move over the border. Sorry, but are we discussing independence for Scotland or Cloud Cuckoo Land?

As already said, a few companies may base themselves in Scotland were this to happen; but it would produce no real jobs to replace the tens of thousands lost as a direct result of Scotland leaving the Union.

Cameron not asking a question he knows the answer to is not deceit; Salmond not telling the Scottish people the real economic truths about independence is.

That is obvious to any fair minded, unbiased person.

The fact is that Scotland has more to lose and less to gain from Scottish independence than the rest of the UK. Salmond is trying to hide this as at the moment few outside the UK even know who he is and he hopes as leader of an independent Scotland that will change (it wont; who will care who the leader of a minor EU state is; who's the prime minister of Estonia; bet you have to Google it to find out!).

But it's a fact which most intelligent Scots know full well.

Edited November 3, 2012 by 7by7

[theblether]

This is brain damage 7x7, you're going to have to help me out here, because your reading of this topic is different from mine.

Please send me the link to the unattributed speculation by a journalist you keep going on about.

.

Edited November 3, 2012 by theblether

[7by7]

In my mission to annoy the life out of you by showing how smart I am I refer you to the following article...........

http://www.washingto...6a4b_story.html

A quote

" some speculate that what remained of Britain could lose its seat on the U.N. Security Council."

...........and you doubted me........I'm still hurt to the quick.

[nontabury]

Well folium most of us are able to see beyond Alex Salmond and well into what may well be a brave new dawn for our country.

You would be surprised if you ever bothered to visit at just how well educated the locals are. We will vote on a multitude of issues and a particular personality will be low down on most lists.

Sorry to have to disappoint you, naturally.

Looks like we agree on voter motivation. All the present noise and fuss is irrelevant unless Salmond can convince the majority of Scots (or at least residents of Scotland) that independence makes sense, and as you said in an earlier post you are as yet undecided and will wait to see the financial implications of independence before deciding how to vote.

Having worked with Scots most of my life and as I qualify as a voter in this referendum I can assure you that I have a very clear understanding of the ability of Scotland's finest....

Sorry to disappoint you, naturally!

Nemo me impune lacessit

Can we take it you are English, if so, can we also take that you will do your duty as a English man and vote YES, in the knowledge that you will be joined in a Yes vote by that famous Scotsman, Rod Stewart, who is in the process of purchasing a property in Scotland in order to register his spiritual vote,along with Sean Connery, president of the wife beaters association,who also intends to reside in Scotland for the duration of the vote, before again retiring to warmer climates.

Regarding an independent Scotland's membership of the EU, surely this will take place, what is in doubt is the length of any application, and the terms. The SNP are assuming that what they want,is what they will automatically receive. Why should the then British government

assist them in obtaining a rebate such as the one now granted to the U.K. One thing for sure is that the governments of Spain,France,Italy along with Germany will not pander to the spoilt child, as the UK government have over the last 20yrs.

[theblether]

In my mission to annoy the life out of you by showing how smart I am I refer you to the following article...........

http://www.washingto...6a4b_story.html

A quote

" some speculate that what remained of Britain could lose its seat on the U.N. Security Council."

...........and you doubted me........I'm still hurt to the quick.

Sorry 7x7, that's not the source I've been talking about, the source I have been talking about has been posted twice already.

[theblether]

Well folium most of us are able to see beyond Alex Salmond and well into what may well be a brave new dawn for our country.

You would be surprised if you ever bothered to visit at just how well educated the locals are. We will vote on a multitude of issues and a particular personality will be low down on most lists.

Sorry to have to disappoint you, naturally.

Looks like we agree on voter motivation. All the present noise and fuss is irrelevant unless Salmond can convince the majority of Scots (or at least residents of Scotland) that independence makes sense, and as you said in an earlier post you are as yet undecided and will wait to see the financial implications of independence before deciding how to vote.

Having worked with Scots most of my life and as I qualify as a voter in this referendum I can assure you that I have a very clear understanding of the ability of Scotland's finest....

Sorry to disappoint you, naturally!

Nemo me impune lacessit

Can we take it you are English, if so, can we also take that you will do your duty as a English man and vote YES, in the knowledge that you will be joined in a Yes vote by that famous Scotsman, Rod Stewart, who is in the process of purchasing a property in Scotland in order to register his spiritual vote,along with Sean Connery, president of the wife beaters association,who also intends to reside in Scotland for the duration of the vote, before again retiring to warmer climates.

Regarding an independent Scotland's membership of the EU, surely this will take place, what is in doubt is the length of any application, and the terms. The SNP are assuming that what they want,is what they will automatically receive. Why should the then British government

assist them in obtaining a rebate such as the one now granted to the U.K. One thing for sure is that the governments of Spain,France,Italy along with Germany will not pander to the spoilt child, as the UK government have over the last 20yrs.

He has still to confirm that he is a resident of Scotland and on the Voters Roll.

[7by7]

Sorry 7x7, that's not the source I've been talking about, the source I have been talking about has been posted twice already.

It is the only source posted by anyone which mentions any speculation on the effects of Scottish independence on the UK's position on the UNSC.

All other sources linked to on regarding UNSC reform do not mention it at all!

http://www.scribd.co...ecurity-Council

As you have to log in, i.e. join, to read the paper, I haven't read it. But the paper is entitled "Europe's Veto Power" and the page you linked to says

This paper argues for reforms of the UN Security Council membership

So the logical conclusion is that the paper argues for an EU role on the Security Council; nothing to do with the UK's position should Scotland leave the Union. However, if you can provide a quote from the paper saying that the UK's position is threatened by Scottish Independence, then at least you will have one source to back up your assertion. An academic paper from an organisation totally unassociated with the UN and funded largely by the German government, but at least a source.

Folium says he has read it, and no mention is made of Scottish independence.

So, can you quote the relevant part in order to educate me and prove him wrong?

BTW, he has said he is eligible to vote; are you accusing him of lying?

How do you suggest he proves it? Copy and paste his entry on the electoral role, which gives not only his name but also his address?

Are you prepared to do the same in an open forum which any nutter could be reading?

Even if he did, there would be no proof it was him; he could simply copy one at random.

Some things you have to take on trust; even if you dislike a particular member and disagree with his views.

Edited November 3, 2012 by 7by7

[theblether]

@7x7

Would you like to reconsider your tone and remove any reference to me accusing a member of lying? I have merely asked Folium to confirm that he is a resident of Scotland and on the Scottish Voters Role.

It was news to me that he was a resident of Scotland and I'm merely asking for confirmation of that fact.

If Folium says that he is I will believe him without reservation.

[smokie36]

We could always ask a mod to affirm we are posting from north of the border theblether.

[stoneyboy]

@7x7

Would you like to reconsider your tone and remove any reference to me accusing a member of lying? I have merely asked Folium to confirm that he is a resident of Scotland and on the Scottish Voters Role.

It was news to me that he was a resident of Scotland and I'm merely asking for confirmation of that fact.

If Folium says that he is I will believe him without reservation.

It takes balls to admit one is Scottish,give it time,spare him the embarrassment.

[theblether]

We could always ask a mod to affirm we are posting from north of the border theblether.

Looks like we'll have to, imagine using such pejorative language for asking a simple question. Contrary to opinion I have no axe to grind with Folium, he likes using hyperbole but a lot of his links are interesting.

I've also chatted to him by pm and he's a very switched on and interesting individual. If he is in Scotland Smokie maybe he could join us for a Haggis Pizza and a few beers the next time he's in Glasgow.

@stoneyboy......cheeky bastid

.

Edited November 3, 2012 by theblether