Britain, Scotland Sign Deal For Independence Referendum

[theblether]

World War 2 is the answer to your question.

Incorrect. It was the cost of the Great War, 1914-1918, that bankrupted the Empire.

WW2 only accelerated the decline.

Money was only one issue, the change to the country after WW2 was far more profound than after WW1, however that's a matter for a different topic.

.

Edited November 9, 2012 by theblether

[Rob8891]

Well, it looks like the doubters have been "sent homeward, tae think again"

What's that sound?? Could it be mass wound-licking??

[7by7]

Not being much older than you, buy having studied the politics of the time Smokie, it's safe to say, and I think I will get unanimous agreement on this.

The British electorate were conned by the political class.

They thought they were agreeing to join a free trade area.........not a overbearing political Union that stripped the UK of sovereignty.

At least we can agree on something!

I voted 'Yes' in that referendum as we were told that the EEC was simply a free trade area and remaining within would have no effect on the UK's sovereignty. Like many others, I'm sure, I now realise we were conned.

[7by7]

Well, it looks like the doubters have been "sent homeward, tae think again"

This doubter has a job to go to; sorry that means I can't spend all day on the interent!

[theblether]

Not being much older than you, buy having studied the politics of the time Smokie, it's safe to say, and I think I will get unanimous agreement on this.

The British electorate were conned by the political class.

They thought they were agreeing to join a free trade area.........not a overbearing political Union that stripped the UK of sovereignty.

At least we can agree on something!

I voted 'Yes' in that referendum as we were told that the EEC was simply a free trade area and remaining within would have no effect on the UK's sovereignty. Like many others, I'm sure, I now realise we were conned.

Somebody phone me an ambulance, I can't believe it. The shocks too much for me

[Rob8891]

Well, it looks like the doubters have been "sent homeward, tae think again"

This doubter has a job to go to; sorry that means I can't spend all day on the interent!

Ah well, at least you admit to being a doubter!!

[theblether]

I would be fine if people could just accept that the fact we have a Referendum at all is remarkable, and surely all democrats must applaud the fact that the issue will be settled at the ballot box.

Yes there will be arguments and disagreements but my earlier post where I explained the background to the Referendum should serve as a warning to the Unionists. They are guilty of walking into traps of their own making, especially the Labour Party.

Sitting back and watching, sitting back and waiting, is a valid tactic.......especially given the track record of our opponents.

I would say it's a genius tactic.

[Rob8891]

"Softly, softly, catchee monkey" seems appropriate. 10/10 and a gold star for Eck.

[7by7]

@7x7.................I promised a post about the background to the Referendum, there are people reading the thread, including foreign nationals, that may not have an idea of what the background is.

As for not answering the difficult questions.........we don't have to answer the difficult questions just now.

A week is a long time in politics, two years is an eternity

The real campaign for Independence will kick off in Spring 2014, answers will cometh then Sir, answers will cometh then.

In other words, neither you nor Salmond knows the answers, and are hoping he'll be able to think of some before the actual vote.

I find it amazing that you refute the Guardian article because the Guardian is 'in the pocket of the Labour party' yet use the witterings of an ex Labour MP, now Labour peer, to support you argument.

Also, if we are to ignore the Guardian, which only reported what Van Rumpoy said, because the Guardian is politically biased; what are we to make of your own postings here; your long piece in particular? Unbiased is not a word that springs to mind after reading your posts; indeed you have admitted being an SNP supporter! Your essay is pure SNP propoganda.

Onto the EU issue.

Firstly, I have not posted a youtube link to anything said by Van Rumpoy.

Secondly, whilst he has said he will not take an active part in the debate, he has said that an independent Scotland's admission to the EU will not be automatic.

You don't believe that because the link posted, not by me, was to the Guardian.

But the same quotes appeared in many other media, of all political persuasions; for example The Herald (A Scottish paper, for those who don't know; though I'm unaware of it politics. No doubt theblether will be happy to enlighten us).

.......a source close to the EC president made clear he would not be campaigning against Scottish independence and added: "Scotland will need to reapply for EU membership and he could chair the meetings where that is discussed. I can imagine some nations would make that a difficult meeting – Spain, Cyprus and Belgium."

You have often belaboured the point that the UK is, at present, one country and that nothing belongs to England. Well the same is true of the UK's EU membership. It is the UK that is a member of the EU; not England, not Northern Ireland, not Scotland, not Wales; the UK.

It was the UK government that signed the various treaties that tie us to the EU. The contract, for want of a better word, is between the UK and the EU; not between the EU and the UK's constituent parts.

But an independent Scotland will no longer be part of the UK. There are no treaties between the EU and Scotland, no contract. By leaving the UK, Scotland will also leave the EU.

As I am sure you know, there is no such thing as an English citizen, a Northern Irish citizen, a Scottish citizen, a Welsh citizen. Legally we are all British citizens. British citizens are also EU citizens; but citizens of an independent Scotland will no longer be British citizens. They will have given British citizenship up, and at the same time given up their EU citizenship.

Cameron is not running scared of this issue; but Salmond should be!

Edit; some machine code errors seem to have crept in, hopefully this edit has removed them.

Edited November 9, 2012 by 7by7

[7by7]

Well, it looks like the doubters have been "sent homeward, tae think again"

This doubter has a job to go to; sorry that means I can't spend all day on the interent!

Ah well, at least you admit to being a doubter!!

I thought that I am a doubter of the arguments for Scottish independence was extremely obvious to any one who has read any of my posts on the subject!

Pay attention; please.

[theblether]

First of all.......yes we know the answers, now is not the time,

We will deal with the circumstances presented to us in 2014.......it may have escaped your attention that at the last election we were 9 points behind Labour a month before polling day, and we beat them. The election will not be won today.

Secondly......up to this point Tam Dalyell has been proven correct, at least he had the honesty to stand firm against devolution from the beginning and make it clear it was a mistake even when it put him at odds with the Labour Party machine. It was a mistake by Labour, and a gift to the SNP.

Thanks for that

We know that accession is not automatic, we know we have to independently sign the Treaties, this is a pedantic point. We will be granted access to the EU. To suggest otherwise is laughable.

The Herald is a Unionist paper.

We will go into negotiation with the EU as soon as the Referendum is won........I have predicted that the EU will sign the Treaties with Scotland to coincide with Independence Day.

People forget there will be a period of 2 or 3 years between the Referendum being won and Independence Day.........plenty of time to sort out the details. What's the worst case scenario? We will be isolated the same way Norway and Switzerland are??

Oh well that will be a disaster.......I know plenty of Brits that would love that same isolation

[smokie36]

Let's discuss the referendum in 1979 for a wee while.

Perhaps you can all start by explaining why the turnout was so low please?

[MAJIC]

@Theblether.

I read your longwinded essay concerning the Scots Referendum with interest. There were one or two good points,but mostly a Scottish History lesson was unecessary,for the the Scottish people to make up their minds,after all it's the Scottish people that need to be convinced,especially coming from the SNP point of view,who desperately need to convince the people of a Yes vote.

I suspect nearer the time of the Referendum,we may see the SNP fighting for it's Political Life. And I don't envisage the Scottish Labour Party being at all helpful,should that be the case.

In the meantime there is an awful lot to consider,leading up to the Referendum,the link is to the BBC News and contains many angles and News of the many considerations that need to be agreed on,before finalising the Result of the Referendum,which is by no means cut and dried.And makes very interesting reading,and deals with through the experts,many of the points of contention.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...COTS REFERENDUM

Edited November 9, 2012 by MAJIC

[7by7]

You know the answers, but aren't going to tell anyone! (See, I know where the smiley buttons are, too.)

You'll accept one Labour source but not another!

The Herald may be a Unionist paper; but Van Rumpoy said what he said, and you can't deny it; though you've tried.

Earlier in this topic you were emphatic that an independent Scotland would continue to be a member of the EU; now you accept that they will have to negotiate membership. At least you have admitted one major fact you got wrong; or as close to admitting it as you ever will..

[smokie36]

You know the answers, but aren't going to tell anyone! (See, I know where the smiley buttons are, too.)

You'll accept one Labour source but not another!

The Herald may be a Unionist paper; but Van Rumpoy said what he said, and you can't deny it; though you've tried.

Earlier in this topic you were emphatic that an independent Scotland would continue to be a member of the EU; now you accept that they will have to negotiate membership. At least you have admitted one major fact you got wrong; or as close to admitting it as you ever will..

There will be nothing to negotiate initially 7by7.....the EU will welcome Scotland with open arms.

As theblether said....to imagine otherwise is laughable.

It is a non event in the context of this referendum. If the SNP stated they would not join, then that is also irrelevant.

After a Yes vote, there will be elections to decide who will form a government. Its not a shoe in to be the SNP.

You are jumping the gun....mind you its a pleasure to see you start to believe in the future!

[7by7]

Let's discuss the referendum in 1979 for a wee while.

Perhaps you can all start by explaining why the turnout was so low please?

A very good question.

Whether insisting on a 40% 'Yes' from the entire electorate rather than a majority of those who actually bothered to vote was gerrymandering or a valid mechanism to ensure that the will of the majority was represented is a matter of opinion.

But if the Scottish people cared as much about Scottish independence as some would have us believe you would think they would have turned out enmasse!

The SNP were doubtless furious at not getting the result they wanted; but were the majority of the Scottish people. Don't think so.

I just hope that the Scottish electorate are not as apathetic in 2014 and Salmond gets his way by default.

[theblether]

You know the answers, but aren't going to tell anyone! (See, I know where the smiley buttons are, too.)

You'll accept one Labour source but not another!

The Herald may be a Unionist paper; but Van Rumpoy said what he said, and you can't deny it; though you've tried.

Earlier in this topic you were emphatic that an independent Scotland would continue to be a member of the EU; now you accept that they will have to negotiate membership. At least you have admitted one major fact you got wrong; or as close to admitting it as you ever will..

What questions do you want answered?.....send me a big long list.....

I'm not accepting a source......I'm recounting a prediction that has come true to date.

I have made it very clear to anyone reading this thread that Scotland will be granted membership of the EU. There is no doubt about that whatsoever.

You are making a pedantic point.......of course we will have to sign the various Treaties under our new legal status as an Independent nation, however the overall effect will be the same.

Scotland will be an Independent nation within the EU.

[theblether]

@Theblether.

I read your longwinded essay concerning the Scots Referendum with interest. There were one or two good points,but mostly a Scottish History lesson was unecessary,for the the Scottish people to make up their minds,after all it's the Scottish people that need to be convinced,especially coming from the SNP point of view,who desperately need to convince the people of a Yes vote.

I suspect nearer the time of the Referendum,we may see the SNP fighting for it's Political Life. And I don't envisage the Scottish Labour Party being at all helpful,should that be the case.

In the meantime there is an awful lot to consider,leading up to the Referendum,the link is to the BBC News and contains many angles and News of the many considerations that need to be agreed on,before finalising the Result of the Referendum,which is by no means cut and dried.And makes very interesting reading,and deals with through the experts,many of the points of contention.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...COTS REFERENDUM

MAJIC......the essay wasn't aimed at you, it was aimed at the members who don't know the background to the debate. Please keep in mind that Thaivisa has an International membership.

[Rob8891]

@ 7x7

Sorry to snip your post, but for clarity, I will anyway.

As I am sure you know, there is no such thing as an English citizen, a Northern Irish citizen, a Scottish citizen, a Welsh citizen. Legally we are all British citizens. British citizens are also EU citizens; but citizens of an independent Scotland will no longer be British citizens. They will have given British citizenship up, and at the same time given up their EU citizenship.

Can you not see a flaw in your post (apologies for snipping it, but it saves readers' time and space). Do you have categorical information to show that Scots WILL lose EU citizenship? I think not. Scotland's continuing membership of the EU is almost a given. No one will be giving up that right.... not even the rump of the former UK...or do you believe that the rump will somehow stay in the EU while Scotland will be cast adrift? Hmmm... Sounds like you are expecting one law for the rump, and one for Scotland. This will not be so, since there will be no UK any more. It will be one in, all in, or one out, all out.

[theblether]

Let's discuss the referendum in 1979 for a wee while.

Perhaps you can all start by explaining why the turnout was so low please?

A very good question.

Whether insisting on a 40% 'Yes' from the entire electorate rather than a majority of those who actually bothered to vote was gerrymandering or a valid mechanism to ensure that the will of the majority was represented is a matter of opinion.

But if the Scottish people cared as much about Scottish independence as some would have us believe you would think they would have turned out enmasse!

The SNP were doubtless furious at not getting the result they wanted; but were the majority of the Scottish people. Don't think so.

I just hope that the Scottish electorate are not as apathetic in 2014 and Salmond gets his way by default.

Scotland pre-Thatcher and Scotland post-Thatcher are two entirely different countries.

[7by7]

Earlier in this topic you were emphatic that an independent Scotland would continue to be a member of the EU; now you accept that they will have to negotiate membership. At least you have admitted one major fact you got wrong; or as close to admitting it as you ever will..

There will be nothing to negotiate initially 7by7.....the EU will welcome Scotland with open arms.

As theblether said....to imagine otherwise is laughable.

Well, the EU president imagines otherwise; at least two EU commissioners imagine otherwise, the Belgian, Spanish and Cypriot governments all imagine otherwise. Are they all laughable?

An independent Scotland probably will be able to negotiate EU membership; but it will be on the EU's terms which the Scottish people may very well find hard to swallow.

Theblether; I have posted the questions many times, I'm not going to do so again. Instead of saying i have posted links i haven't, maybe you should go and read what I have actually posted!

[7by7]

Let's discuss the referendum in 1979 for a wee while.

Perhaps you can all start by explaining why the turnout was so low please?

A very good question.

Whether insisting on a 40% 'Yes' from the entire electorate rather than a majority of those who actually bothered to vote was gerrymandering or a valid mechanism to ensure that the will of the majority was represented is a matter of opinion.

But if the Scottish people cared as much about Scottish independence as some would have us believe you would think they would have turned out enmasse!

The SNP were doubtless furious at not getting the result they wanted; but were the majority of the Scottish people. Don't think so.

I just hope that the Scottish electorate are not as apathetic in 2014 and Salmond gets his way by default.

Scotland pre-Thatcher and Scotland post-Thatcher are two entirely different countries.

Understand; in 1979 the Scottish were so pro Thatcher that they were desperate to remain in the UK in the certain knowledge she would be the next Prime Minister.!

[smokie36]

Let's discuss the referendum in 1979 for a wee while.

Perhaps you can all start by explaining why the turnout was so low please?

A very good question.

Whether insisting on a 40% 'Yes' from the entire electorate rather than a majority of those who actually bothered to vote was gerrymandering or a valid mechanism to ensure that the will of the majority was represented is a matter of opinion.

But if the Scottish people cared as much about Scottish independence as some would have us believe you would think they would have turned out enmasse!

The SNP were doubtless furious at not getting the result they wanted; but were the majority of the Scottish people. Don't think so.

I just hope that the Scottish electorate are not as apathetic in 2014 and Salmond gets his way by default.

Ok I will say that the turnout will be higher.

This will in no small part be due to media coverage. There is a clue as to what happened in 1979.

The SNP will not make the same mistakes...indeed the mistakes could not be the same due to the wide range of options at their disposal today.

Look at how the 1979 battle was fought by both Labour and the SNP. Please post your thoughts!

[theblether]

Earlier in this topic you were emphatic that an independent Scotland would continue to be a member of the EU; now you accept that they will have to negotiate membership. At least you have admitted one major fact you got wrong; or as close to admitting it as you ever will..

There will be nothing to negotiate initially 7by7.....the EU will welcome Scotland with open arms.

As theblether said....to imagine otherwise is laughable.

Well, the EU president imagines otherwise; at least two EU commissioners imagine otherwise, the Belgian, Spanish and Cypriot governments all imagine otherwise. Are they all laughable?

An independent Scotland probably will be able to negotiate EU membership; but it will be on the EU's terms which the Scottish people may very well find hard to swallow.

Theblether; I have posted the questions many times, I'm not going to do so again. Instead of saying i have posted links i haven't, maybe you should go and read what I have actually posted!

Do it one more time.....list your questions out please.

As for your battering on about the EU.......your whistling in the wind. It has already been stated that Herman Van Rompuy will not campaign against Scottish Independence. It has already been stated by a EU commissioner that there is no mechanism to strip current EU citizens of citizenship.

Now we go full circle to David Cameron..............the EU has offered to give a legal ruling as to the status of Scotland if we vote Independent.

David Cameron has refused to request the ruling be made...........he knows the answer will be yes. His refusal to put the truth before the Scottish electorate is anti-Democratic, and he will feel immense pressure before this election to request this ruling.

It's these type of issues that ultimately scar the Unionists......they can't help shooting themselves in the foot.

[theblether]

Let's discuss the referendum in 1979 for a wee while.

Perhaps you can all start by explaining why the turnout was so low please?

A very good question.

Whether insisting on a 40% 'Yes' from the entire electorate rather than a majority of those who actually bothered to vote was gerrymandering or a valid mechanism to ensure that the will of the majority was represented is a matter of opinion.

But if the Scottish people cared as much about Scottish independence as some would have us believe you would think they would have turned out enmasse!

The SNP were doubtless furious at not getting the result they wanted; but were the majority of the Scottish people. Don't think so.

I just hope that the Scottish electorate are not as apathetic in 2014 and Salmond gets his way by default.

Ok I will say that the turnout will be higher.

This will in no small part be due to media coverage. There is a clue as to what happened in 1979.

The SNP will not make the same mistakes...indeed the mistakes could not be the same due to the wide range of options at their disposal today.

Look at how the 1979 battle was fought by both Labour and the SNP. Please post your thoughts!

You can guarantee that every single SNP supporter will turn out, people will drag themselves from their sick beds and already people are flying in to the country to legally register for the right to vote.

100% commitment from the Independence supporters, 7x7 is correct though, it will be a worry for the Unionists to get their vote out.

[theblether]

Let's discuss the referendum in 1979 for a wee while.

Perhaps you can all start by explaining why the turnout was so low please?

A very good question.

Whether insisting on a 40% 'Yes' from the entire electorate rather than a majority of those who actually bothered to vote was gerrymandering or a valid mechanism to ensure that the will of the majority was represented is a matter of opinion.

But if the Scottish people cared as much about Scottish independence as some would have us believe you would think they would have turned out enmasse!

The SNP were doubtless furious at not getting the result they wanted; but were the majority of the Scottish people. Don't think so.

I just hope that the Scottish electorate are not as apathetic in 2014 and Salmond gets his way by default.

Scotland pre-Thatcher and Scotland post-Thatcher are two entirely different countries.

Understand; in 1979 the Scottish were so pro Thatcher that they were desperate to remain in the UK in the certain knowledge she would be the next Prime Minister.!

That comment is surreal. It shows you have no grasp of Scottish politics.

[7by7]

Rob8891, similarly I hope you will likewise forgive me for not quoting your post in full. Too many nested quotes in this topic!

There is no reason why the UK should, or indeed will, cease to exist if the Scottish choose to leave.

There is a precedent.

Prior to 1927 the UK was The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

Southern Ireland became an independent country, the Irish Free State, now the Republic of Ireland, in 1922. The UK continued in existence and the name was formally changed by Act of Parliament in 1927 to it's present form; The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

The 'Great Britain' would probably have to go; but that is only the geographical name for the island than contains England, Scotland and Wales.

The UK will continue to be governed by Parliament in Westminster and any and all treaties signed and agreements entered into will continue to be valid post Scottish independence; just as they were post Irish independence.

This includes the UK's membership of the EU and, sorry to revive this old chestnut, the UNSC.

Scotland will be on her own and have to negotiate membership of both the EU and the UN; should she wish to join either.

[smokie36]

Let's discuss the referendum in 1979 for a wee while.

Perhaps you can all start by explaining why the turnout was so low please?

A very good question.

Whether insisting on a 40% 'Yes' from the entire electorate rather than a majority of those who actually bothered to vote was gerrymandering or a valid mechanism to ensure that the will of the majority was represented is a matter of opinion.

But if the Scottish people cared as much about Scottish independence as some would have us believe you would think they would have turned out enmasse!

The SNP were doubtless furious at not getting the result they wanted; but were the majority of the Scottish people. Don't think so.

I just hope that the Scottish electorate are not as apathetic in 2014 and Salmond gets his way by default.

Scotland pre-Thatcher and Scotland post-Thatcher are two entirely different countries.

Understand; in 1979 the Scottish were so pro Thatcher that they were desperate to remain in the UK in the certain knowledge she would be the next Prime Minister.!

Thatcher destroyed the Conservative Party in Scotland and alienated many more young Scots. I grew up in the era of the strikes and the fallout from that. Many small communities never recovered their sense of pride and are still disintegrating now even nearly thirty years later.

A stand alone Scottish Conservative Party would be akin to the Monster Raving Loony Party in a Scottish Government nowadays.

But getting back to how things were before 1979, its certain there was a divide, yet the Tories were not hated and reviled, nor were the English per se, yet there was a general apathy towards independence from many potential voters.

My own parents didn't vote.....they were young Scots in their twenties at the time with a young family. Why did such people not reach the ballot box?

Answers please!

[7by7]

That comment is surreal. It shows you have no grasp of Scottish politics.

Look up the phrase 'Taking the p1$$.'

I see no point in posting the questions again so you can just ignore them again. If you are serious about answering them, they're not hard to find.

Cameron has no need to formally ask a question he, and everybody else, knows the answer to! Why can you not understand that! The EU president, for one, has made the answer perfectly clear.

Anyway, the wife is working late tonight and I've promised to cook her dinner, so must take my leave. I'm only saying that so I'm not accused of running away again.

[MAJIC]

Let's discuss the referendum in 1979 for a wee while.

Perhaps you can all start by explaining why the turnout was so low please?

A very good question.

Whether insisting on a 40% 'Yes' from the entire electorate rather than a majority of those who actually bothered to vote was gerrymandering or a valid mechanism to ensure that the will of the majority was represented is a matter of opinion.

But if the Scottish people cared as much about Scottish independence as some would have us believe you would think they would have turned out enmasse!

The SNP were doubtless furious at not getting the result they wanted; but were the majority of the Scottish people. Don't think so.

I just hope that the Scottish electorate are not as apathetic in 2014 and Salmond gets his way by default.

Scotland pre-Thatcher and Scotland post-Thatcher are two entirely different countries.

Understand; in 1979 the Scottish were so pro Thatcher that they were desperate to remain in the UK in the certain knowledge she would be the next Prime Minister.!

Thatcher destroyed the Conservative Party in Scotland and alienated many more young Scots. I grew up in the era of the strikes and the fallout from that. Many small communities never recovered their sense of pride and are still disintegrating now even nearly thirty years later.

A stand alone Scottish Conservative Party would be akin to the Monster Raving Loony Party in a Scottish Government nowadays.

But getting back to how things were before 1979, its certain there was a divide, yet the Tories were not hated and reviled, nor were the English per se, yet there was a general apathy towards independence from many potential voters.

My own parents didn't vote.....they were young Scots in their twenties at the time with a young family. Why did such people not reach the ballot box?

Answers please!

MAJIC.

You are correct,Thatcher did destroy the Conservatives in Scotland,mainly through using Scotland as a Guinea Pig for the disastrous Poll Tax.

She also dessimated many other parts of the UK,which have never recovered to this day,so you were not suffering alone under her dictatership stewardship.But this subject would need a large thread of its own.

Edited November 9, 2012 by MAJIC