Britain, Scotland Sign Deal For Independence Referendum

[StreetCowboy]

As long as beer prices don't rise SC we won't see rebellion.

As I understand it, the SNP are seeking to introduce minimum pricing for alcohol to try to rid us of the scourge of cheap drink.

I was talking to a fellow Scot who felt so strongly about his country that he lived there, and that was the only good thing he had to say about the SNP.

He was also considering moving to England, in the event of independence, though I don;t think he was particularly serious about that. Though it would depend on how his job, which is in England, was taxed...

SC

[smokie36]

Hopefully with this oil revenue we'll see proper investment in our football clubs as well.

[jpinx]

The North Sea Oil and Gas field have been divided up between Norway,Denmark,Germany,The Netherlands and UK for about the last 50 years.

Under the new order "Alba" it would appear could do rather well...no pun ..etc

Would also suggest that that Mr C boys will need every penny they can get especially when confronted with finding a dock for the RTS... Nuc Subs..

Haltenbank; numerous developments in production, Heidrun gasfied, Draugen oil field, Ormen Lange etc.

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People continue to be confused.....

The oil, the wells, rigs, pipes, refineries all were paid for by the various oil companies and everything belongs to them. This is nothing like the old nationalised coal industry. Countries only make money out of oil from licensing, taxing, etc. The country has nothing to do with exploration, production, or distribution.

[StreetCowboy]

Hopefully with this oil revenue we'll see proper investment in our football clubs as well.

If we want to preserve our football clubs pickling woudl seem the obvious answer

[smokie36]

I'm not sure we retain the technical knowledge to make a jar big enough for all of those egos.

[StreetCowboy]

I'm not sure we retain the technical knowledge to make a jar big enough for all of those egos.

Did you ever buy a pickled ego in the chip shop on the way home from the pub? I think there'll be some bruised egos in Scottishly fitba the noo

Edited November 15, 2012 by StreetCowboy

[cowslip]

don't jump to conclusions.

Following that logic England would be out too

No. The rules of the EU deal with the issue of successor nations and the UK might be a smaller nation, but it would remain a member of the EU.

i think you need to re-read my posts...

[cowslip]

never mind oil - WATER wil be an important export.

Would that be 'Scottish Mineral Water'....of the single malt type

scotland apart form the enormous Whiskey industry will supply England with water for human consumption and industry.

[phuketjock]

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To the best of my knowledge, the waters (and seabed) around the UK are within the domain of the United Kingdom. What rules that are applied to their division between the United Kingdom, and its seceding state, Scotland, may be subject to agreement, and that agreement may be a condition to the secession.

SC

SC Have you read anything in the last ten posts?? If not maybe you should!!

Well, let's hope that your assumptions about how everything is going to pan out are right. Let's hope that the EU grants us prompt membership, and doesn't gouge us for whatever subsidies they can get. Let's hope that the UK agrees to what we consider to be a fair share of the UK section of the oil reserves. Let's hope the price of oil stays high, as well...

Anyway, I'm sure it'll be fine; with great blokes like Alex Salmond at the helm, and his expert advisors, what could possibly go wrong?

SC

It's just a guess but I think maybe optimism is not your thing SC ???

[StreetCowboy]

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To the best of my knowledge, the waters (and seabed) around the UK are within the domain of the United Kingdom. What rules that are applied to their division between the United Kingdom, and its seceding state, Scotland, may be subject to agreement, and that agreement may be a condition to the secession.

SC

SC Have you read anything in the last ten posts?? If not maybe you should!!

Well, let's hope that your assumptions about how everything is going to pan out are right. Let's hope that the EU grants us prompt membership, and doesn't gouge us for whatever subsidies they can get. Let's hope that the UK agrees to what we consider to be a fair share of the UK section of the oil reserves. Let's hope the price of oil stays high, as well...

Anyway, I'm sure it'll be fine; with great blokes like Alex Salmond at the helm, and his expert advisors, what could possibly go wrong?

SC

It's just a guess but I think maybe optimism is not your thing SC ???

Making irreversible decisions on the basis of optimism is bold to the point of foolhardy.

If I was trying to lead a country to disaster, I'd commit to a path without sorting out all the details, crossing all the I s, dotting all the T s, identifying all the hold points and land marks and way points on the route to wherever I was going, and I'd get onto the electorate people who had not developed a cynical mistrust of blokes with the gift of the gab.

That's what I would do, if I was leading a country to disaster. What is Alex Salmond doing?

SC

[smokie36]

Making irreversible decisions on the basis of optimism is bold to the point of foolhardy.

If I was trying to lead a country to disaster, I'd commit to a path without sorting out all the details, crossing all the I s, dotting all the T s, identifying all the hold points and land marks and way points on the route to wherever I was going, and I'd get onto the electorate people who had not developed a cynical mistrust of blokes with the gift of the gab.

That's what I would do, if I was leading a country to disaster. What is Alex Salmond doing?

SC

Perhaps after gaining independence we shall change the rules to allow only village elders to vote.

[StreetCowboy]

Making irreversible decisions on the basis of optimism is bold to the point of foolhardy.

If I was trying to lead a country to disaster, I'd commit to a path without sorting out all the details, crossing all the I s, dotting all the T s, identifying all the hold points and land marks and way points on the route to wherever I was going, and I'd get onto the electorate people who had not developed a cynical mistrust of blokes with the gift of the gab.

That's what I would do, if I was leading a country to disaster. What is Alex Salmond doing?

SC

Perhaps after gaining independence we shall change the rules to allow only village elders to vote.

Or members of the party. I imagine for a while they will pretend that you are still being given a choice and that your votes matter. Until people start to get suspicious...

SC

[phuketjock]

Making irreversible decisions on the basis of optimism is bold to the point of foolhardy.

If I was trying to lead a country to disaster, I'd commit to a path without sorting out all the details, crossing all the I s, dotting all the T s, identifying all the hold points and land marks and way points on the route to wherever I was going, and I'd get onto the electorate people who had not developed a cynical mistrust of blokes with the gift of the gab.

That's what I would do, if I was leading a country to disaster. What is Alex Salmond doing?

SC

Perhaps after gaining independence we shall change the rules to allow only village elders to vote.

Or members of the party. I imagine for a while they will pretend that you are still being given a choice and that your votes matter. Until people start to get suspicious...

SC

SC Optimism or pesimism ( I think there should be a double s or m in there but not sure) is not a basis for decision making but rather an attitude that may or not be adopted while coming to that decision. You seem to prefer the latter, that's all I meant.

[MAJIC]

never mind oil - WATER wil be an important export.

Would that be 'Scottish Mineral Water'....of the single malt type

scotland apart form the enormous Whiskey industry will supply England with water for human consumption and industry.

So why would England start buying water from Scotland,when we have enough of our own?

[geriatrickid]

don't jump to conclusions.

Following that logic England would be out too

No. The rules of the EU deal with the issue of successor nations and the UK might be a smaller nation, but it would remain a member of the EU.

i think you need to re-read my posts...

The legal issue has already been examined in depth by constitutional law scholars. If you need a hint, have a look back to when Ireland became "independent". All of the UK treaties remained in place and it was Ireland that was obliged to go out and sign new treaties etc.

[Neeranam]

never mind oil - WATER wil be an important export.

Would that be 'Scottish Mineral Water'....of the single malt type

scotland apart form the enormous Whiskey industry will supply England with water for human consumption and industry.

So why would England start buying water from Scotland,when we have enough of our own?

Because the english water is nothing near as tasty as the Scottish water.

[folium]

never mind oil - WATER wil be an important export.

Would that be 'Scottish Mineral Water'....of the single malt type

scotland apart form the enormous Whiskey industry will supply England with water for human consumption and industry.

As there is no water grid in the UK (and unlikely ever to be due to the enormous cost plus requirement for vast reservoirs in the SE), not sure how Scotland would plan to shift water to England. A better bet would be transfers from the Pennines or Wales if deemed necessary. So England won't be needing any Scottish water, thank you.

Re the brown, peaty water Scottish whisky is not even majority Scottish owned. Diageo (who have just bought Whyte and Mackay from the bankrupt Indian Kingfisher group) is a London based, British firm and Pernot Ricard are based in Paris for heaven's sake. Between them they own over 60% of Scottish whisky production, Scottish based companies (predominantly Edrington Group and W.Grants) own less than a third, with assorted European, Japanese and US companies making up the rest.

it's rather like telling a proud Irishman that Guinness is owned by the Brits and that the song "Danny Boy" was written by an Englishman....! Truth hurts.

Edited November 16, 2012 by folium

[cowslip]

never mind oil - WATER wil be an important export.

Would that be 'Scottish Mineral Water'....of the single malt type

scotland apart form the enormous Whiskey industry will supply England with water for human consumption and industry.

As there is no water grid in the UK (and unlikely ever to be due to the enormous cost plus requirement for vast reservoirs in the SE), not sure how Scotland would plan to shift water to England. A better bet would be transfers from the Pennines or Wales if deemed necessary. So England won't be needing any Scottish water, thank you.

Re the brown, peaty water Scottish whisky is not even majority Scottish owned. Diageo (who have just bought Whyte and Mackay from the bankrupt Indian Kingfisher group) is a London based, British firm and Pernot Ricard are based in Paris for heaven's sake. Between them they own over 60% of Scottish whisky production, Scottish based companies (predominantly Edrington Group and W.Grants) own less than a third, with assorted European, Japanese and US companies making up the rest.

it's rather like telling a proud Irishman that Guinness is owned by the Brits and that the song "Danny Boy" was written by an Englishman....! Truth hurts.

Utterly wrong from the start.....go and do your research.

I'd say just about everything you say is incorrect.

Edited November 16, 2012 by cowslip

[cowslip]

never mind oil - WATER wil be an important export.

Would that be 'Scottish Mineral Water'....of the single malt type

scotland apart form the enormous Whiskey industry will supply England with water for human consumption and industry.

So why would England start buying water from Scotland,when we have enough of our own?

England doesn't it already imports water.

[folium]

Utterly wrong from the start.....go and do your research.

I'd say just about everything you say is incorrect.

Intrigued re imported water...how much, from where and how? Do you mean the Welsh water supplying Merseyside etc?

Re the "Scottish" whisky industry, ownership is largely south of the border or even further away.

If you have better info, it would be good to hear it.

Edited November 16, 2012 by folium

[cowslip]

I think some people seriously need to review their preconceptions about Scotland.

Population about 1 tenth of England in an area about 60% of England.

Still large areas that could be developed differently (e.g. grouse moors0 and an educated population with some hugely valuable industries and resources (e.g. WATER and whiskey).

Folium - do your research - i'm not going to spoon-feed you I won't waste time like that - come back when you know what you're talking about

[MAJIC]

never mind oil - WATER wil be an important export.

Would that be 'Scottish Mineral Water'....of the single malt type

scotland apart form the enormous Whiskey industry will supply England with water for human consumption and industry.

As there is no water grid in the UK (and unlikely ever to be due to the enormous cost plus requirement for vast reservoirs in the SE), not sure how Scotland would plan to shift water to England. A better bet would be transfers from the Pennines or Wales if deemed necessary. So England won't be needing any Scottish water, thank you.

Re the brown, peaty water Scottish whisky is not even majority Scottish owned. Diageo (who have just bought Whyte and Mackay from the bankrupt Indian Kingfisher group) is a London based, British firm and Pernot Ricard are based in Paris for heaven's sake. Between them they own over 60% of Scottish whisky production, Scottish based companies (predominantly Edrington Group and W.Grants) own less than a third, with assorted European, Japanese and US companies making up the rest.

it's rather like telling a proud Irishman that Guinness is owned by the Brits and that the song "Danny Boy" was written by an Englishman....! Truth hurts.

And as for the Enlish needing Scottish water? another Scottish myth,we have been using our own water for Centuries.

[MAJIC]

never mind oil - WATER wil be an important export.

Would that be 'Scottish Mineral Water'....of the single malt type

scotland apart form the enormous Whiskey industry will supply England with water for human consumption and industry.

And where is your evidence,that Scotland will be suppling water to England?

[Thaddeus]

And as for the Enlish needing Scottish water? another Scottish myth,we have been using our own water for Centuries.

Hence the hose-pipe bans when it doesn't rain for a couple of weeks.

[Rob8891]

scotland apart form the enormous Whiskey industry will supply England with water for human consumption and industry.

As there is no water grid in the UK (and unlikely ever to be due to the enormous cost plus requirement for vast reservoirs in the SE), not sure how Scotland would plan to shift water to England. A better bet would be transfers from the Pennines or Wales if deemed necessary. So England won't be needing any Scottish water, thank you.

Re the brown, peaty water Scottish whisky is not even majority Scottish owned. Diageo (who have just bought Whyte and Mackay from the bankrupt Indian Kingfisher group) is a London based, British firm and Pernot Ricard are based in Paris for heaven's sake. Between them they own over 60% of Scottish whisky production, Scottish based companies (predominantly Edrington Group and W.Grants) own less than a third, with assorted European, Japanese and US companies making up the rest.

it's rather like telling a proud Irishman that Guinness is owned by the Brits and that the song "Danny Boy" was written by an Englishman....! Truth hurts.

And as for the Enlish needing Scottish water? another Scottish myth,we have been using our own water for Centuries.

One word missing, Majic..... "up"....... "we have been using UP our own water for centuries."

Scotland has a surplus of water, given the higher than average rainfall for the (present) UK. You cannot overlook the recent drought panics in England, for example this year. The aquifers have been over-exploited and over-extraction from the rivers continues apace, especially for agricultural irrigation. Sure, there were floods within weeks of the droughts, but all that water did little to replenish the deep aquifers. I foresee you peeping over Hadrian's Wall, saying "Please, pretty please, can we have some water?" when we go independent.....

The need for water will outweigh the huge cost of a water grid, and the rump of the UK will have to bear that expense to maintain its industrial, agricultural and domestic use.

[MAJIC]

scotland apart form the enormous Whiskey industry will supply England with water for human consumption and industry.

As there is no water grid in the UK (and unlikely ever to be due to the enormous cost plus requirement for vast reservoirs in the SE), not sure how Scotland would plan to shift water to England. A better bet would be transfers from the Pennines or Wales if deemed necessary. So England won't be needing any Scottish water, thank you.

Re the brown, peaty water Scottish whisky is not even majority Scottish owned. Diageo (who have just bought Whyte and Mackay from the bankrupt Indian Kingfisher group) is a London based, British firm and Pernot Ricard are based in Paris for heaven's sake. Between them they own over 60% of Scottish whisky production, Scottish based companies (predominantly Edrington Group and W.Grants) own less than a third, with assorted European, Japanese and US companies making up the rest.

it's rather like telling a proud Irishman that Guinness is owned by the Brits and that the song "Danny Boy" was written by an Englishman....! Truth hurts.

And as for the Enlish needing Scottish water? another Scottish myth,we have been using our own water for Centuries.

One word missing, Majic..... "up"....... "we have been using UP our own water for centuries."

Scotland has a surplus of water, given the higher than average rainfall for the (present) UK. You cannot overlook the recent drought panics in England, for example this year. The aquifers have been over-exploited and over-extraction from the rivers continues apace, especially for agricultural irrigation. Sure, there were floods within weeks of the droughts, but all that water did little to replenish the deep aquifers. I foresee you peeping over Hadrian's Wall, saying "Please, pretty please, can we have some water?" when we go independent.....

The need for water will outweigh the huge cost of a water grid, and the rump of the UK will have to bear that expense to maintain its industrial, agricultural and domestic use.

I agree that Draughts are the extreme exception on occasions,and should there be a need for temporary water supplies,then wouldn't Wales be better Geographicaly placed to be a supplier,and they also have a large surplus of water,and they would also still be members of the United Kingdom!

By the way, most of the Water Companies are foriegn owned,including Scottish Water Companies.

Edited November 17, 2012 by MAJIC

[MAJIC]

And as for the Enlish needing Scottish water? another Scottish myth,we have been using our own water for Centuries.

Hence the hose-pipe bans when it doesn't rain for a couple of weeks.

That's true! but our draughts are mere seasonal hiccups,compared with real draught problems around the world.

[folium]

scotland apart form the enormous Whiskey industry will supply England with water for human consumption and industry.

As there is no water grid in the UK (and unlikely ever to be due to the enormous cost plus requirement for vast reservoirs in the SE), not sure how Scotland would plan to shift water to England. A better bet would be transfers from the Pennines or Wales if deemed necessary. So England won't be needing any Scottish water, thank you.

Re the brown, peaty water Scottish whisky is not even majority Scottish owned. Diageo (who have just bought Whyte and Mackay from the bankrupt Indian Kingfisher group) is a London based, British firm and Pernot Ricard are based in Paris for heaven's sake. Between them they own over 60% of Scottish whisky production, Scottish based companies (predominantly Edrington Group and W.Grants) own less than a third, with assorted European, Japanese and US companies making up the rest.

it's rather like telling a proud Irishman that Guinness is owned by the Brits and that the song "Danny Boy" was written by an Englishman....! Truth hurts.

And as for the Enlish needing Scottish water? another Scottish myth,we have been using our own water for Centuries.

One word missing, Majic..... "up"....... "we have been using UP our own water for centuries."

Scotland has a surplus of water, given the higher than average rainfall for the (present) UK. You cannot overlook the recent drought panics in England, for example this year. The aquifers have been over-exploited and over-extraction from the rivers continues apace, especially for agricultural irrigation. Sure, there were floods within weeks of the droughts, but all that water did little to replenish the deep aquifers. I foresee you peeping over Hadrian's Wall, saying "Please, pretty please, can we have some water?" when we go independent.....

The need for water will outweigh the huge cost of a water grid, and the rump of the UK will have to bear that expense to maintain its industrial, agricultural and domestic use.

IMHO we are seeing a mixing up of potential and what is realistic/economically viable.

There's nothing new about talk of moving water from areas of excess precipitation to areas of low input and high demand. Pownall's Grand Contour Canal dates back to 1942, there were thoughts about a national water grid in the 1970's and the last serious look was in 2006. Boris Johnson chewed over the issue in 2011 and the Scottish government raised the notion of extending HS2 (the High Speed Train) to Scotland and incorporating a water pipeline running south.

There's obvious potential and lots of plans but none have ever come to fruition due to the enormous cost involved and the 2006 discussions concluded that a scheme to move water from Scotland made no economic sense compared to any other serious possibility. Linking up the Severn and Thames systems via Sapperton is an option. Wales currently supplies Birmingham and parts of Merseyside but as far as I am aware there is no Scottish water currently heading to England. The closest is probably the Kielder system that supplies water to the Tyne/Wear/Tees systems.

Kielder underlines the point that excess water is far closer to the deficit SE/E of England than Scotland. The Pennines are a vast potential water source if the economics ever made sense, and with the costs of transport being crucial why move water from further away than you have to?

Back to "Scottish" whisky production, I stand by my earlier statement that this is a largely (ie 70%) non-Scotttish owned business, see below:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/who-owns-our-whisky-1.826391

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/Research%20briefings%20and%20fact%20sheets/SB09-76.pdf

[phuketjock]

Re the brown, peaty water Scottish whisky is not even majority Scottish owned. Diageo (who have just bought Whyte and Mackay from the bankrupt Indian Kingfisher group) is a London based, British firm and Pernot Ricard are based in Paris for heaven's sake. Between them they own over 60% of Scottish whisky production, Scottish based companies (predominantly Edrington Group and W.Grants) own less than a third, with assorted European, Japanese and US companies making up the rest.

]

And as for the Enlish needing Scottish water? another Scottish myth,we have been using our own water for Centuries.

One word missing, Majic..... "up"....... "we have been using UP our own water for centuries."

Scotland has a surplus of water, given the higher than average rainfall for the (present) UK. You cannot overlook the recent drought panics in England, for example this year. The aquifers have been over-exploited and over-extraction from the rivers continues apace, especially for agricultural irrigation. Sure, there were floods within weeks of the droughts, but all that water did little to replenish the deep aquifers. I foresee you peeping over Hadrian's Wall, saying "Please, pretty please, can we have some water?" when we go independent.....

The need for water will outweigh the huge cost of a water grid, and the rump of the UK will have to bear that expense to maintain its industrial, agricultural and domestic use.

MAJIC,folium Who actually owns what is irrelevant it is the revenue/duty generated from oil. whisky,

wind generators, wave power and anything else that you can think of, which at present goes to the

British government, after independance will go to the Scottish government, and when this happens

Scotland will cease to be the only country in history that struck oil and became poorer!!!

Edited November 17, 2012 by phuketjock

[MAJIC]

Re the brown, peaty water Scottish whisky is not even majority Scottish owned. Diageo (who have just bought Whyte and Mackay from the bankrupt Indian Kingfisher group) is a London based, British firm and Pernot Ricard are based in Paris for heaven's sake. Between them they own over 60% of Scottish whisky production, Scottish based companies (predominantly Edrington Group and W.Grants) own less than a third, with assorted European, Japanese and US companies making up the rest.

]

And as for the Enlish needing Scottish water? another Scottish myth,we have been using our own water for Centuries.

One word missing, Majic..... "up"....... "we have been using UP our own water for centuries."

Scotland has a surplus of water, given the higher than average rainfall for the (present) UK. You cannot overlook the recent drought panics in England, for example this year. The aquifers have been over-exploited and over-extraction from the rivers continues apace, especially for agricultural irrigation. Sure, there were floods within weeks of the droughts, but all that water did little to replenish the deep aquifers. I foresee you peeping over Hadrian's Wall, saying "Please, pretty please, can we have some water?" when we go independent.....

The need for water will outweigh the huge cost of a water grid, and the rump of the UK will have to bear that expense to maintain its industrial, agricultural and domestic use.

MAJIC,folium Who actually owns what is irrelevant it is the revenue/duty generated from oil. whisky,

wind generators, wave power and anything else that you can think of, which at present goes to the

British government, after independance will go to the Scottish government, and when this happens

Scotland will cease to be the only country in history that struck oil and became poorer!!!

Scotland didn't strike oil,the English did it for them. And if Scotland had total control of the developement and extraction of the oil wells it would still be in the ground. Scotland has had their fair share of the oil revenue,through allocated payments from Westminster,which is much higher per head of population than what is allocated to English people,and members of the United Kingdom.

Just look around your Country now,and you will see it is much richer than when oil came on the scene pre 70s. there are other oil fields and platforms off the English coast as well you know,which the revenue also went into the joint financial pot,known as the United Kingdom.

Edited November 17, 2012 by MAJIC