Blocking Egr Valve

[mcdiver]

anybody have experience with blocking the EGR valve for toyota vigo/fortuner 3,0 1kd engine?

what are benefits and dangers by doing this?

Edited October 24, 2012 by mcdiver

[Pomthai]

I made a long post about this a while ago, here-:

You asked for it.... Long post warning :-

These are my thoughts and opinions after doing a decent amount of research and being familiar with diesel engines.

First, the EGR or Exhaust Gas Return or Recirculation Valve(s).

First introduced as an emissions control device, the EGR valves are mounted on the inlet manifold temporarily connecting the exhaust manifold and inlet manifold together when opened. Exhaust gasses are allowed to flow into the inlet manifold to cool the combustion chamber (supposedly) reducing the formation of NOx (Nitrogen Oxides) and allowing harmful compounds to be re-burnt thus reducing NOx levels and other pollutants in the in the overall exhaust emissions. The EGR valves are electronically or pneumatically controlled by vehicles ECU.

EGR’s are disabled by mechanically blanking them with a metal gasket or plate, removing / blocking the vacuum hoses that operate them or disconnecting them electronically. All of the above methods have their pros and cons. Generally the ECU won’t know you did anything if you mechanically blank the valves. However electronic disconnects or fiddling with the vacuum hoses can result in a check engine warning light. – I’m not going into the ins and outs of check engine light or how they operate or what does or doesn’t trigger them. My point is you want to avoid them and the possibility of your engine going into limp mode. (Limp mode is a basic ECU fueling program often with limited RPM’s to get your car home or to a dealer for repairs)

Second, DPF or Diesel Particulate Filter.

This little gem is parked in the exhaust between the turbo and main down pipe usually about a foot long section overall. It is often referred too here (wrongly since it isn’t) as a CAT delete owing to the similar practice used replacing catalytic converters with a straight pipe. The principal is the same the DPF filter is replaced with a prefabricated straight pipe. The DPF is basically what it says on the tin, a filter. Filters get clogged and blocked. There are three ways to unblock it somewhat – 1 the ECU runs the fuel mixture lean raising the exhaust temperature thus burning the deposits off (kinda fighting the EGR isn’t it! Are ECU’s Bi-Polar?) this is referred to as active re-generation. Two, is “Passive regeneration” caused by sustained higher speed driving which increases exhaust gas temperatures anyway and helps burn of the carbon and soot deposits. Often there is a dash indicator light that either is happening or needs to happen. Three, delete it completely and replace the pipe with one without a pesky filter in it.

Why Disable EGR and Delete DPF?

EGR valves being in the exhaust line get clogged up with soot. This means that over time they might not seat properly causing them to remain partially open all of the time. The ECU cannot compensate for this scenario, the result is poor performance which invariably results in higher than necessary fuel consumption – the driver compensates with a heavier foot, or the ECU miss reads the excessive exhaust gasses as a too rich fuel mixture and sets the engine to run lean possibly resulting in burnt valves and other engine damage if left un checked or more commonly un-noticed until it’s too late.

That’s one of the reasons.

We have an “engine”, we filter its “air” to be as “clean” as possible without restricting the “flow” rate. Then the turbo compresses it to get more clean air into the combustion chamber – this creates heat so we “Inter or After Cool” it further increasing its density and clean burning potential and then the ECU meticulously meters the fuel quantity and precisely times its injection relative to that charge air – and then “Opps” all that’s out the proverbial window and we mix in some sooty old exhaust gasses into it saving some trees. I don’t buy it.

EGR disabling and DPF delete in my opinion do the following.

Exhaust gasses instead of polluting the inlet manifold charge can be used to drive the turbo more efficiently. Allowing that space the dirty exhaust gas once took to be replaced with clean charge air resulting in a more powerful cleaner overall burn. The DPF no longer restricts the exhaust gas flow robbing the engine of power thus reducing spool up time and improving throttle response. You get the added bonus of not filling the inlet manifold up with carbon and soot as well as not having your engine oil turn jet black after 1,000K’s (My oil is still transparent and what I’d call clean after 10,000Ks) this wasn’t the case before I blanked off the EGR.

I agree that under lab conditions and on a relatively new engine (less than 50,000k) then EGR and DPF are great environmental solutions however I also believe they become counterproductive as the vehicle ages and the kilometres pile on add the fact that manufactures are under an immense amount of pressure to conform to the views of environmentalists and environmental concerns and legislation from all over the world. “At The Point & Time Of Sale”

If you intend to keep your vehicle for an extended period of time, (in the hundreds of thousands of kilometres) then ask yourself what is more efficient or environmentally friendly in the big picture? Keeping my car for half a million kilometres with a risk of maybe higher emissions some times? Or replace it for a complete new one. Kind of like Prius syndrome “The most efficient, inefficiently manufactured car in the world.”

TL;DR

For those that didn’t read all of the above the long and short is – Blank EGR and DPF delete equals better performance, better throttle response (read more fun) cleaner internals and longer engine life.

It might be slightly better for the environment as well.

Maybe.

IMHO of course.

Origional post can be found here - http://www.thaivisa....il/page__st__25 post number 27

BTW its still going, almost 350K now. Not missed a beat touch wood.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Pomthai

[Jitar]

EGR is a poor solution to reduce NOx with many disadvantages as summarised by Pomthai above.

The main disadvantage of blocking EGR is the potential warranty issue it may lead to for vehicles still under OEM warranty. Things could get messy if there was an engine issue under warranty and the EGR mod was found. Note, a dealer mechanic servicing the vehicle will probably notice the EGR system has been blocked when doing the regular cleaning of the EGR valve, now required by most manufacturers service schedules. If you are lucky the service mechanic will ignore the clean EGR valve and manifold, and there will not be any engine issues claimed under warranty.

A little off topic, but some engine manufacturers have EGR alternatives like ACERT (Caterpillar) and SCR but these are primarily used for larger diesel engines. SCR or (AdBlue) may end up on more European diesel light vehicles in future.

[mr3cho]

Where can I have an EGR delete performed on my diesel in the BKK area? The metal plate itself is just a few bucks. How much would the service be (for the new bt50 / ranger)?

[John 1]

Where can I have an EGR delete performed on my diesel in the BKK area? The metal plate itself is just a few bucks. How much would the service be (for the new bt50 / ranger)?

On a Toyota it take all of about 5 minutes to undo 2 bolts and insert the plate cost 150bt for plate and install.. For a Mazda I would assume same any mech could do.

[funcat]

Where can I have an EGR delete performed on my diesel in the BKK area? The metal plate itself is just a few bucks. How much would the service be (for the new bt50 / ranger)?

On a Toyota it take all of about 5 minutes to undo 2 bolts and insert the plate cost 150bt for plate and install.. For a Mazda I would assume same any mech could do.

....and the straight pipe for the DPF delete another 2-3K,if one wants...

[mcdiver]

thanks

dpf already taken away, new air filter, ecu shop piggyback installed

any of you can recommend any shops in pattaya for the EGR block?

[Jobo]

Are you all sure that these low tech diesel pick ups have a DPF rather than just a Catalytic Converter?

[Jitar]

I think the dpf are being phased in this year with Euro 4 regs. Think previous models for Thai market use cats.

[IMHO]

Are you all sure that these low tech diesel pick ups have a DPF rather than just a Catalytic Converter?

Euro4 standard (w/DPF) was mandatory in TH as of 1/1/2012.

The current gen D-Max, Colorado, Ranger and BT-50 have all had a DPF since launch.

The Hilux, Triton and Navara had DPF added in Q4 2011.

Edited October 26, 2012 by IMHO

[mcdiver]

DPF or CAT?

I have cut away this on my 2012 vigo and replaced with straight pipe

will block EGR valve when I get home in a few weeks

[SoCalChris]

Where can I have an EGR delete performed on my diesel in the BKK area? The metal plate itself is just a few bucks. How much would the service be (for the new bt50 / ranger)?

Does anyone have an example where the EGR was deleted/blocked on a Thai truck and the HP output change if any was accurately measured?

My Thai brother-inlaw did this on his 2.5L Isuzu (~2009?) and he claims an increase of about 5-10hp. I drove with him but my butt dyno is not sensitive enough to confirm.

Edited October 27, 2012 by SoCalChris

[Jitar]

Most EGR closes at higher engine speed so blocking will not make any difference to max power. My impression with PJS was a small improvement in Torque below 2,000 rpm. The main benefit of blocking EGR is stopping the contamination of engine inlet air.

[SoCalChris]

Most EGR closes at higher engine speed so blocking will not make any difference to max power. My impression with PJS was a small improvement in Torque below 2,000 rpm. The main benefit of blocking EGR is stopping the contamination of engine inlet air.

Thanks Jitar for the response.

This is true for petrol vehicles where higher combustion temperatures producing NOx emissions can happen at part throttle. Although, deleting the EGR can actually keep the intake manifold much cooler. The intake charge will then be more dense, and you can also increase timing advance as detonation will be reduced too. I did this on my Nissan and there was a significant difference with its GA16DNE engine....I'm pretty sure I got a couple of HP out of it.

However, I heard the combustion temps go up substantially in a diesel engine when increasing the fueling and this produces a bucket load of NOx . My understanding the EGR is designed to stay on at full throttle. Can anybody confirm? It also decrease the EGTs (exhaust gas temps) pre-turbo. One reason why people blow their turbos is they increase the fueling so there's a ton of black smoke now and then they don't invest in a larger turbo.

Edited October 27, 2012 by SoCalChris

[mcdiver]

Most EGR closes at higher engine speed so blocking will not make any difference to max power. My impression with PJS was a small improvement in Torque below 2,000 rpm. The main benefit of blocking EGR is stopping the contamination of engine inlet air.

yes, thats how I understand it too

I want the cleaner engine/engine oil

Edited October 27, 2012 by mcdiver

[mcdiver]

blocked my EGR yesterday and took away the EGR cooling pipe

used 5mm aluminium as the shop did not have the stainless I wanted

hope to get a cleaner engine and the engine should have a better life running on clean air?

the vigo have 12k km

[mogandave]

Would just plugging the tube work?

[BlackArtemis]

Performance depends on the car. Back in the US my 02 mustang saw no performance gains from the EGR delete, the only reason I did delete it was when I swapped LT headers on and the dam_n thing wouldn't come off the stock exhaust so we hacked it off, plugged it and used a hand held tuner to turn off my check engine light. I passed inspection and emissions with this done.

[BSJ]

Would just plugging the tube work?

Yes. I usually turned down a short length of aluminium and used that as a plug. Best way in Oz if your likely to get pulled over by the rozzers.

[John 1]

blocked my EGR yesterday and took away the EGR cooling pipe

used 5mm aluminium as the shop did not have the stainless I wanted

hope to get a cleaner engine and the engine should have a better life running on clean air?

the vigo have 12k km

I would also suggest you take the pipe from the rocker cover and divert into a oil catch can and then return that line to vent outside truck or back to above turbo I'm venting to outside and it keeps oil clean looks same color as when new.

[JAS21]

I had my V-Cross serviced today ... talking to the mechanic via my wife ... it seems that yes it can be done but you will get black smoke now and again. Anyway I am going to the main dealer to discuss ... can anyone confirm that the D-Max doesn't have a DPF as that is what I have read elsewhere.

I also found this ... is the guy correct?

Because we are talking about a very efficient modern common rail diesel running a pcu, compression cylinder values change as the egr system opens . Compression ratio increases due to the recycled gas being inert and the computer remaps the fuel to a different set of values just as if it was a smaller engine. This gives better fuel economy less emissions and certainly less particulate and soot. Considering the Egr Valve is open on all light throttle applications this saves us all a lot of fuel money and pollutions.

Blocking off the egr valve on a modern engine usually leaves the engine with compression charge during low loads and normal driving when the egr previously would be open leaving the diesel engine becoming inefficient and having un burnt fuel causing more particulates which cause cancer and bad fuel economy. Since we are speaking of a efi compression ignition engine lowering compression by closing the egr port without the computers input produces more emissions and worse fuel economy and carbon build up on injectors

During heavy loads and full throttle the egr system is closed and again the computer uses a different set of values to control fuel to get as close to optium combustion and max power output as emission standards allow.

blocking off a egr valve to get more power is really silly because when you need power the foot is to the floor on the pedal and the cars computer closes the egr valve off for you on demand.

Most modern cid egines incorporate paticulate filters to combat any carbon problems entering the engine from the egr circuit so you wont find too many new engine failing from wear from egr carbon unless its done a lot of work and a lot of miles.

Thanks for any opinions .................................

Edited November 15, 2012 by JAS21

[Jitar]

I had my V-Cross serviced today ... talking to the mechanic via my wife ... it seems that yes it can be done but you will get black smoke now and again. Anyway I am going to the main dealer to discuss ... can anyone confirm that the D-Max doesn't have a DPF as that is what I have read elsewhere.

I also found this ... is the guy correct?

Because we are talking about a very efficient modern common rail diesel running a pcu, compression cylinder values change as the egr system opens . Compression ratio increases due to the recycled gas being inert and the computer remaps the fuel to a different set of values just as if it was a smaller engine. This gives better fuel economy less emissions and certainly less particulate and soot. Considering the Egr Valve is open on all light throttle applications this saves us all a lot of fuel money and pollutions.

Blocking off the egr valve on a modern engine usually leaves the engine with compression charge during low loads and normal driving when the egr previously would be open leaving the diesel engine becoming inefficient and having un burnt fuel causing more particulates which cause cancer and bad fuel economy. Since we are speaking of a efi compression ignition engine lowering compression by closing the egr port without the computers input produces more emissions and worse fuel economy and carbon build up on injectors

Not correct, Some engine ECUs adjust timing and some throttle inlet to increase EGR but EGR does not change compression ratio.

EGR only reduces NOx, and it actually makes fuel consumption and soot slightly worse.

I also found this ... is the guy correct?

During heavy loads and full throttle the egr system is closed and again the computer uses a different set of values to control fuel to get as close to optium combustion and max power output as emission standards allow.

blocking off a egr valve to get more power is really silly because when you need power the foot is to the floor on the pedal and the cars computer closes the egr valve off for you on demand.

Correct, blocking EGR will not change max power. Does help low and mid range torque a little though.

I also found this ... is the guy correct?

Most modern cid egines incorporate paticulate filters to combat any carbon problems entering the engine from the egr circuit so you wont find too many new engine failing from wear from egr carbon unless its done a lot of work and a lot of miles.

Not true for pickup / light duty diesels. These route EGR from the exhaust manifold or head ports before the DPF. When Euro 4 regs and EGR first started in western countries there were problems with carbon blocking inlet manifolds and EGR valves. The Manufacturers manage this by adding EGR valve / manifold cleaning to service schedules. The carbon particles in the exhaust are still going through the engine.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Jitar

[JAS21]

Jitar thanks for your info ... you said ...

Not correct, Some engine ECUs adjust timing and some throttle inlet to increase EGR but EGR does not change compression ratio.

EGR only reduces NOx, and it actually makes fuel consumption and soot slightly worse.

And I later found more info and

I think what this guy was trying to say was that as the recirc gas is basically inert that This lack of oxygen in the

cylinder charge reduces the combustion rate leading to retarded combustion and thus to lower peak cylinder pressure values.

Think I'll leave well alone.

[funcat]

...so,in simple language,is it good ,or bad for the engine(blocking the EGR)...and fuel economy increase,or decrease?...

[Jitar]

Short answer is, EGR is only good for reducing NOx. It makes performance, fuel consumption and engine wear slightly worse.

Blocking EGR is good for the engine. The engine will breath cleaner air and contaminate oil more slowly. The disadvantages of blocking EGR are increased NOx emission and potential warranty issue for a new engine.

Fuel consumption should be slightly better with EGR blocked if the vehicle is driven the same. Low speed torque and response are slightly improved.

[Neilly]

Consensus amongst the Hilux (Vigo) clan (can’t speak for other makes) is that if you chip the truck you should blank the EGR...un-chipped leave it alone as your mpg will suffer. Trade off is that you will have to clean the EGR and manifold of carbon every once in awhile.

The later the truck the more this applies...some guys have had to drill a hole in the blanking plate (8mm~10mm depending) to stop the engine check light coming on as the ECU can now sense something is amiss. The earlier ones (up to about 2009 in UK and Oz...maybe later here) there was no problem blanking the EGR and did make a difference...the newer ones...not so much.

Sign up to http://www.NewHilux.net and have a read there...loads of good info