P A D Gives Its Supporters Ok To Join Pitak Siam Rally On 24Th In Bangkok

[jayboy]

I don't think there was any confusion which rally those grizzled old communists were attending.A genuinely useful response would have been to explain to the unenlightened what on earth did they think they were doing at a fascist assembly because the mental gymnastics involved are astonishing.But no we are instead treated to a repeat viewing of the tired old redshirts are communists propaganda.Yawn.

As you are the one calling PAD fascist, while at the same time pointing out a sizable chunk of the membership is far from that, it is understandable even the weird convolutions of your thought processes is having trouble justifying the original claim. Of course it must be the people attending that are confused, and not some distant observer.

I don't think there was any confusion which rally those grizzled old communists were attending.A genuinely useful response would have been to explain to the unenlightened what on earth did they think they were doing at a fascist assembly because the mental gymnastics involved are astonishing.But no we are instead treated to a repeat viewing of the tired old redshirts are communists propaganda.Yawn.

As you are the one calling PAD fascist, while at the same time pointing out a sizable chunk of the membership is far from that, it is understandable even the weird convolutions of your thought processes is having trouble justifying the original claim. Of course it must be the people attending that are confused, and not some distant observer.

The PAD leadership is broadly fascist but that is irrelevant to my question (why communists attended the Siam Pitak rally) which you have ignored, presumably out of ignorance.I don't condemn because I am ignorant too on the matter, hence the question

[jonclark]

Then so be it. If that is the route Thailand has chosen, then that is the path it must travel. Maybe the people will need to experience these extremes, these failures, the despair it causes in order to become politically wise and mature in the future.

To use a simple analogy

The Thai electorate are kinda like young inexperienced children and a box of matches. Their elders are warning against them about the dangers of playing with matches (PTP). It appears that the electorate need to get burnt before they take those warnings seriously.

The charred fingers will make the children more experienced and will listen to warnings more thoughtfully in the future, but that experience as you know comes at a cost.

But what do you do when some rotten mongrel with a personal grievance (let's call him TS) comes along and gives the kids a bottle of petrol?

At a society level - nothing - Let society burn itself. As uncomfortable as that reads, (and lets keep emotion out of politics which is difficult) that is the only solution. Thai society has to learn and understand that it must be stronger and less susceptible to manipulation. In order to be stronger (as the comparative adjective indicates) it must first develop from a position of weakness. SO let this current episode of politics run its course. Thailand will emerge stronger, but that rebirth, like any labour, will be painfully and bloody.

That doesn't mean law breakers are set free or cleared, they should be pursued and seen to be fairly tried and if guilty convicted.

[OzMick]

Did I suggest you were trying to confuse? The question I posed was a simple one - why are these old communists attending the Siam Pitak rally?I could undrstand it if they had renounced communism (which is opposed to all Siam Pitak stands for) but that is apparently not the case - they seem positively proud of it.Can you (vain hope of a sensible reply) or anybody else explain the thinking involved?

As for the communists in the redshirt camp one may like it or not like it but very misguided though they may be, there isn't an ideological inconsistency (furthering the cause of the great unwashed etc)

The Siam Pitak commies are just a puzzle.

I could venture an explanation but it's just a guess.It would go something like this.Given the history of Thailand in the last half century all sorts and conditions of men became involved on one side or another of the CPT struggle.Some quite surprising, General Surayud's father for example.After the total CPT defeat in the 1980's some hardliners sought a home in another anti democratic controlling ideology.

So, having Ms. Thida and her husband Dr. weng as UDD leaders is OK because that isn't an ideological inconsistency with hardliners seeking a new home in another anti-democratic controlling ideology.

I must admit to a certain level of confusion

I think the confusion is someone else's - a phenomenon that occurs when rather obvious facts are inconvenient to the argument and mindset.

Let's make it very simple then.I have an open mind on the subject.The question is this - why did a bunch of old communists pitch up at the Siam Pitak rally.If it is obvious to you please share the insight.

Wearing a hat doesn't make you a communist, just like joining UDD fails to make you a democracy supporter. It could be they just like the hat, it is the uniform of their sporting team, or it could even be that they are communists who have the moral fortitude and political insight to object to a pack of thieves plundering their country under the guise of communist-style ideals.

[15Peter20]

I think the confusion is someone else's - a phenomenon that occurs when rather obvious facts are inconvenient to the argument and mindset.

Let's make it very simple then.I have an open mind on the subject.The question is this - why did a bunch of old communists pitch up at the Siam Pitak rally.If it is obvious to you please share the insight.

Wearing a hat doesn't make you a communist, just like joining UDD fails to make you a democracy supporter. It could be they just like the hat, it is the uniform of their sporting team, or it could even be that they are communists who have the moral fortitude and political insight to object to a pack of thieves plundering their country under the guise of communist-style ideals.

So funny hearing now that people who wear communist insignias aren't necessarily communist from posters of the same ilk as those who paraded images of communist-insignia wearing red shirts over the previous months and warned everyone of the communist menace of the red shirt movement. How things change...

[jayboy]

...it could even be that they are communists who have the moral fortitude and political insight to object to a pack of thieves plundering their country under the guise of communist-style ideals.

Possibly.But anyway thanks for the suggestion.I'm not really convinced but at least its a rational possibility.I was, and actually remain, genuinely puzzled.

[Buchholz]

I think the confusion is someone else's - a phenomenon that occurs when rather obvious facts are inconvenient to the argument and mindset.

Let's make it very simple then.I have an open mind on the subject.The question is this - why did a bunch of old communists pitch up at the Siam Pitak rally.If it is obvious to you please share the insight.

Wearing a hat doesn't make you a communist, just like joining UDD fails to make you a democracy supporter. It could be they just like the hat, it is the uniform of their sporting team, or it could even be that they are communists who have the moral fortitude and political insight to object to a pack of thieves plundering their country under the guise of communist-style ideals.

So funny hearing now that people who wear communist insignias aren't necessarily communist from posters of the same ilk as those who paraded images of communist-insignia wearing red shirts over the previous months and warned everyone of the communist menace of the red shirt movement. How things change...

Some things don't change.

Could you reference one or two from this "parade" of images that occurred here during the past seven weeks that you've been a member?

.

[OzMick]

I think the confusion is someone else's - a phenomenon that occurs when rather obvious facts are inconvenient to the argument and mindset.

Let's make it very simple then.I have an open mind on the subject.The question is this - why did a bunch of old communists pitch up at the Siam Pitak rally.If it is obvious to you please share the insight.

Wearing a hat doesn't make you a communist, just like joining UDD fails to make you a democracy supporter. It could be they just like the hat, it is the uniform of their sporting team, or it could even be that they are communists who have the moral fortitude and political insight to object to a pack of thieves plundering their country under the guise of communist-style ideals.

So funny hearing now that people who wear communist insignias aren't necessarily communist from posters of the same ilk as those who paraded images of communist-insignia wearing red shirts over the previous months and warned everyone of the communist menace of the red shirt movement. How things change...

The image of the front page of a copy of Red Power provided by Buchholz should solve that problem for you. You might also consider the history of a number of their self-appointed leaders. Start withThida and Weng.

[khunken]

Did I suggest you were trying to confuse? The question I posed was a simple one - why are these old communists attending the Siam Pitak rally?I could undrstand it if they had renounced communism (which is opposed to all Siam Pitak stands for) but that is apparently not the case - they seem positively proud of it.Can you (vain hope of a sensible reply) or anybody else explain the thinking involved?

As for the communists in the redshirt camp one may like it or not like it but very misguided though they may be, there isn't an ideological inconsistency (furthering the cause of the great unwashed etc)

The Siam Pitak commies are just a puzzle.

I could venture an explanation but it's just a guess.It would go something like this.Given the history of Thailand in the last half century all sorts and conditions of men became involved on one side or another of the CPT struggle.Some quite surprising, General Surayud's father for example.After the total CPT defeat in the 1980's some hardliners sought a home in another anti democratic controlling ideology.

So, having Ms. Thida and her husband Dr. weng as UDD leaders is OK because that isn't an ideological inconsistency with hardliners seeking a new home in another anti-democratic controlling ideology.

I must admit to a certain level of confusion

You miss my point.It's neither OK nor the opposite, simply understandable.The presence of communists at Siam Pitak rally is simply inexplicable.That's why I sought a reasonable explanation not an argument

No it's not inexplicable. As already pointed out, the shirts & uniforms are simply a dress-code for certain groups at protest rallies.

So far, we've had the Nazis, fascists, commies, & marxist-leninists mentioned with reference to one or both sets of protesters. Like the BBC & other media, posters here seem to try and apply western-style political movements to Thailand. It doesn't work.

On one side is Thaksin - an arch (corrupt) capitalist -, the red shirt leaders - nothing but mercenaries -, the red shirt grass-roots - too many brainwashed & paid -, & PTP - full of the main family & it's supporters whose main aim is to line their pockets.

On the other side is Boonlert's supporters - mainly ex-military -, the yellow shirts - mainly middle-class taxpayers & trade unionists -, & the DP - less corrupt & not able to fund the same level of vote buying.

The red-shirt schools just look like a further brainwashing effort. The red villages are worse - a suppresion of free speech.

Thai 'democracy' is so shallow that it hardly merits the term. Thaksin directed PTP have two aims in mind. First control all the major institutions of the country & second make him leader. The result: a money-making machine like nothing seen yet.

What means are available to prevent this? The media helps, & there are many Thais who can see this happening but not enough, so far, to make a real difference. Then there is the army who do have the power to prevent a Thaksin presidency & will probably use it if serious violence breaks out over the amnesty. The police are not just useless but have lost what little respect they had because of their partiality.

I hope that people like Boonlert continue their protests because, if nothing else, it sends out a message that total control of the country should never be in the hands of a single individual, let alone a dangerous & corrupt one.

[Thai at Heart]

Did I suggest you were trying to confuse? The question I posed was a simple one - why are these old communists attending the Siam Pitak rally?I could undrstand it if they had renounced communism (which is opposed to all Siam Pitak stands for) but that is apparently not the case - they seem positively proud of it.Can you (vain hope of a sensible reply) or anybody else explain the thinking involved?

As for the communists in the redshirt camp one may like it or not like it but very misguided though they may be, there isn't an ideological inconsistency (furthering the cause of the great unwashed etc)

The Siam Pitak commies are just a puzzle.

I could venture an explanation but it's just a guess.It would go something like this.Given the history of Thailand in the last half century all sorts and conditions of men became involved on one side or another of the CPT struggle.Some quite surprising, General Surayud's father for example.After the total CPT defeat in the 1980's some hardliners sought a home in another anti democratic controlling ideology.

So, having Ms. Thida and her husband Dr. weng as UDD leaders is OK because that isn't an ideological inconsistency with hardliners seeking a new home in another anti-democratic controlling ideology.

I must admit to a certain level of confusion

You miss my point.It's neither OK nor the opposite, simply understandable.The presence of communists at Siam Pitak rally is simply inexplicable.That's why I sought a reasonable explanation not an argument

No it's not inexplicable. As already pointed out, the shirts & uniforms are simply a dress-code for certain groups at protest rallies.

So far, we've had the Nazis, fascists, commies, & marxist-leninists mentioned with reference to one or both sets of protesters. Like the BBC & other media, posters here seem to try and apply western-style political movements to Thailand. It doesn't work.

On one side is Thaksin - an arch (corrupt) capitalist -, the red shirt leaders - nothing but mercenaries -, the red shirt grass-roots - too many brainwashed & paid -, & PTP - full of the main family & it's supporters whose main aim is to line their pockets.

On the other side is Boonlert's supporters - mainly ex-military -, the yellow shirts - mainly middle-class taxpayers & trade unionists -, & the DP - less corrupt & not able to fund the same level of vote buying.

The red-shirt schools just look like a further brainwashing effort. The red villages are worse - a suppresion of free speech.

Thai 'democracy' is so shallow that it hardly merits the term. Thaksin directed PTP have two aims in mind. First control all the major institutions of the country & second make him leader. The result: a money-making machine like nothing seen yet.

What means are available to prevent this? The media helps, & there are many Thais who can see this happening but not enough, so far, to make a real difference. Then there is the army who do have the power to prevent a Thaksin presidency & will probably use it if serious violence breaks out over the amnesty. The police are not just useless but have lost what little respect they had because of their partiality.

I hope that people like Boonlert continue their protests because, if nothing else, it sends out a message that total control of the country should never be in the hands of a single individual, let alone a dangerous & corrupt one.

Considering the amount of "purges" and battles that the armed forces had with communist insurgents over the years in this country, it really is a stretch of credulity that they would be at what would be considered a "pro-coup" protest.

I will take the word of the other paper at face value that they were there to voice anti-corruption support and that Surayud had extended them assistance over the years. Shows a rather broad spectrum of support, even if an amazing combination.

[OzMick]

Back to "red shirt schools" does anybody have any information on these?

The original "democracy schools" were a propaganda and misinformation apparatus to push the idea of a "judicial coup" and to encourage violent revolt (as told to me by a short-term attendee).

As there is little need for this at the moment, what are we talking about? Extra-curricular of normal schooling homage to the Dear Leader Abroad and his related and appointed representatives? Or is this some conversion of government schools to indoctrination centres, ala muslim madrasas?

Either way, who is funding this - the RS movement (aka Thaksin) or the Thai taxpayer again?

[phantomfiddler]

This whole "reconciliation" movement that the government says it is trying to implement totally evades me. To a casual (very) observer it would appear to be exactly the opposite thing that they wish to achieve. Redshirt villages, redshirt counties, and now redshirt schools ? are they serious ? An obvious attempt at completely brainwashing the incredibly vulnerable young. What will come next ? Free computer games where Lord T. vapourizes the perceived bad guys, saves the damsels in distress, rides into the sunset throwing bales of moolah at the poor farmers and taxi drivers ? It gets more obvious by the day !

[Thai at Heart]

Back to "red shirt schools" does anybody have any information on these?

The original "democracy schools" were a propaganda and misinformation apparatus to push the idea of a "judicial coup" and to encourage violent revolt (as told to me by a short-term attendee).

As there is little need for this at the moment, what are we talking about? Extra-curricular of normal schooling homage to the Dear Leader Abroad and his related and appointed representatives? Or is this some conversion of government schools to indoctrination centres, ala muslim madrasas?

Either way, who is funding this - the RS movement (aka Thaksin) or the Thai taxpayer again?

http://thairedshirts...-military-coup/

http://thairedshirts...litical-school/

Seems to be a meeting place where people get together periodically to "spread" the word, so to say. Doesn't seem to be aimed at kids, but I honestly wouldn't like to say that for sure. Of course kids will be present, so, they get exposed to the message no doubt.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Thai at Heart

[Buchholz]

Back to "red shirt schools" does anybody have any information on these?

The original "democracy schools" were a propaganda and misinformation apparatus to push the idea of a "judicial coup" and to encourage violent revolt (as told to me by a short-term attendee).

As there is little need for this at the moment, what are we talking about? Extra-curricular of normal schooling homage to the Dear Leader Abroad and his related and appointed representatives? Or is this some conversion of government schools to indoctrination centres, ala muslim madrasas?

Either way, who is funding this - the RS movement (aka Thaksin) or the Thai taxpayer again?

One might presume that the positions on the Education Ministry's Office of the Education Council are taxpayer financed.

In Uttaradit, the red shirts launched a school to train political activists. Some 2,000 red shirts from the North are allegedly due to take part in the programme.

Red-shirt chairwoman Thida Thawornseth pledged to open five red schools across the country by the end of this year.

The first red school opened back in 2009, and that led to the red-shirt rally in 2010, triggering violence and bloodshed.

Amid the planned expansion of red schools, Thida made it clear her movement wanted to pave the way for a rewrite of the charter.

Time for fruition of Thida and other Red Shirts and a Shinawatra or two being placed on the Education Ministry's commission for training the country's youth.

Even though Thida wasn't given an MP chair like her husband was, the Yingluck government has now rewarded her with a chair on the Education Ministry's Office of the Education Council.

Another Red Shirt appointed to the Council is Worapol Prommikabutr.

Still another appointed to the Education Council by Yingluck Shinawatra's government is Yingluck's older sister, Yaowaret Shinawatra.

Still others include failed Pheu Thai Party constituency MP candidates and a Red Shirt lawyer.

The list of all appointees used to be viewable in pdf format on the government website:

http://www.onec.go.t...-27-07-2012.pdf

but it's since been taken down after the news of its content began circulating amongst the media.

[NCFC]

Won't be a coup. The people don't want it. The Thai economy is booming at the moment. There's plenty of jobs (labour shortages in some industries), people have a feel-good factor. The army is back in the barracks, the generals are making lots of money. Nobody has the time or inclination for a coup.

[rubl]

One might presume that the positions on the Education Ministry's Office of the Education Council are taxpayer financed.

In Uttaradit, the red shirts launched a school to train political activists. Some 2,000 red shirts from the North are allegedly due to take part in the programme.

Red-shirt chairwoman Thida Thawornseth pledged to open five red schools across the country by the end of this year.

The first red school opened back in 2009, and that led to the red-shirt rally in 2010, triggering violence and bloodshed.

Amid the planned expansion of red schools, Thida made it clear her movement wanted to pave the way for a rewrite of the charter.

Time for fruition of Thida and other Red Shirts and a Shinawatra or two being placed on the Education Ministry's commission for training the country's youth.

Even though Thida wasn't given an MP chair like her husband was, the Yingluck government has now rewarded her with a chair on the Education Ministry's Office of the Education Council.

Another Red Shirt appointed to the Council is Worapol Prommikabutr.

Still another appointed to the Education Council by Yingluck Shinawatra's government is Yingluck's older sister, Yaowaret Shinawatra.

Still others include failed Pheu Thai Party constituency MP candidates and a Red Shirt lawyer.

The list of all appointees used to be viewable in pdf format on the government website:

http://www.onec.go.t...-27-07-2012.pdf

but it's since been taken down after the news of its content began circulating amongst the media.

And the policy statement of the previous MoE dr. Suchart started with this philosophy

"Police Lieutenant Colonel Dr. Thaksin Shinawatra has said about

education that "Education will lead to the building of people's vigour.

Vigorous and knowledgeable people are powerful capital to fight

with poverty." "Emphases must be on distribution of benefits with equity,

and on regards of people with difficulties, in order to provide quality

education for everyone." "Education is an important key, a starting

element that is necessary in making poverty become past."

The Pheu Thai Party Government shall take care of Thai people as

family members and not hurt them nor misapply their money. On education,

student-centred approach is committed. People's children will be taken

care as ours, and teachers as our relatives.

Therefore, the Ministry of Education must look after people, no

corruption, no cheating on students, no forcing on teachers and students to

welcome executives if not necessary, no drugs distributed among our children.

We must relax rules and regulations and other tasks outside teachinglearning.

We must get rid of money charges for post transfers or returns to

home towns of teachers. Criteria in assessment of teachers must be clear,

decreasing judgement. We must also decrease those debt tempting factors.

In education development, the Pheu Thai Party Government

emphasizes the philosophy of EQUITY and TECHNOLOGY application.

We will provide quality basic education for every youth in every area and

creating higher education students as professionals."

edpolicy2_drsuchart250155.pdf

[hellodolly]

Slow learning curve, This country has been getting more than their fingers burnt for decades with little or no improvement and it will never change unless a few fundemental changes are implemented.

The rule of law must be implemented and enforced in a just and transparent manner with no one being allowed to be beyond judical process regardless of status wealthy or position.

The Military should be removed from the political equation or Thailand will remain a bannana republic. Outside Communism there is no country in the world than can develop or has developed where the military has been active in government. They do not have a part to play in local politics. Thailand over the past 30 years has had more coups or threatened coups than it has temples. The military are part of the problem and never a solution in politics or business for that mater.

I fully believe that the toxic regieme of Thaksin had to be brought down but a military coup was not the medium to be used as testified by the condition that still prevail today.

It all boils down to the installation and just implementation of law and order and the garnering of a belief within all Thais that all are equal under law. However, such change would also require an dilgent, efficient and accountable constabulary as they too are subject to the same laws.

Perhaps a bridge too far but without such change no one is going anywhere.

Well said. The problem as I see it is that in order to attain the quality of leadership needed to reach those ends it would require education. Real education not that red shirt crap.

To attain a level of teaching ability in Thailand will take years and then years for enough of the educated to grow big enough to do the job.

In the mean time we are stuck with crap. Even if the PT lose the next election their will still be a lot of civil servants feeding from the public coffers and it will take more than one term in office to reverse the damage the PT have done. For sure the new government would have it's share of corrupt officials.

From where I sit it is at least a 20 year journey.

[Buchholz]

One might presume that the positions on the Education Ministry's Office of the Education Council are taxpayer financed.

And the policy statement of the previous MoE dr. Suchart started with this philosophy

"Police Lieutenant Colonel Dr. Thaksin Shinawatra has said about

education that "Education will lead to the building of people's vigour.

Vigorous and knowledgeable people are powerful capital to fight

with poverty."

Meanwhile, back in real world.... a thread that gives the reader just a taste of the over-a-decade-long relationship between Thaksin and education...

Education: The Weak Spot In All Thaksin Regimes

http://www.thaivisa....haksin-regimes/

[Sunderland]

So, let's get this straight: a party gets voted into office with a majority of votes. Another party doesn't like that and stages rallies, calling for a coup, which is not only criminal, but also stupid!

What do think will happen with the reds, if "their" PM gets ousted again?

They will slowly and silently ride into the sunset?

I would think otherwise.

In my opinion a coup will be the start of a wave of violence, where a burnt down shopping- center is the least of everyone's worries!

Unfortunately, the only way to get the PTT and UDD at bay is, if the "yellows" came up with some ideas to make the "reds" not so likeable and vote them out of office!

I say unfortunately, because I just don't see them do it!

Abisith may have an Oxford education and seen real democracy at work, but will he ever get to a point, where this will get relevant?

With the PAD, which still lives in yesteryear and is far from understanding (and wanting) democracy?

Or with the self- proclaimed protectors of Siam, who are not even living in yesteryear but in yestercentury?

Good luck with that!

Agree with much of that. So, can you suggest a solution? Otherwise, whatever anyone suggests or does leads to the square root of nothing. At the moment either the country will get raped by those in power or the country will end up raping itself.

[bigbamboo]

So, let's get this straight: a party gets voted into office with a majority of votes. Another party doesn't like that and stages rallies, calling for a coup, which is not only criminal, but also stupid!

What do think will happen with the reds, if "their" PM gets ousted again?

They will slowly and silently ride into the sunset?

I would think otherwise.

In my opinion a coup will be the start of a wave of violence, where a burnt down shopping- center is the least of everyone's worries!

Unfortunately, the only way to get the PTT and UDD at bay is, if the "yellows" came up with some ideas to make the "reds" not so likeable and vote them out of office!

I say unfortunately, because I just don't see them do it!

Abisith may have an Oxford education and seen real democracy at work, but will he ever get to a point, where this will get relevant?

With the PAD, which still lives in yesteryear and is far from understanding (and wanting) democracy?

Or with the self- proclaimed protectors of Siam, who are not even living in yesteryear but in yestercentury?

Good luck with that!

Agree with much of that. So, can you suggest a solution? Otherwise, whatever anyone suggests or does leads to the square root of nothing. At the moment either the country will get raped by those in power or the country will end up raping itself.

This is not a political party it is a pressure group.... like the red shirts. The difference is that unlike the red shirts the Pitak Siam group is not affiliated to or sponsored by a political party either.

As long as they are there just to raise awareness and educate (like the red shirt schools we hear about) there should be no problem.

[15Peter20]

Let's make it very simple then.I have an open mind on the subject.The question is this - why did a bunch of old communists pitch up at the Siam Pitak rally.If it is obvious to you please share the insight.

Wearing a hat doesn't make you a communist, just like joining UDD fails to make you a democracy supporter. It could be they just like the hat, it is the uniform of their sporting team, or it could even be that they are communists who have the moral fortitude and political insight to object to a pack of thieves plundering their country under the guise of communist-style ideals.

So funny hearing now that people who wear communist insignias aren't necessarily communist from posters of the same ilk as those who paraded images of communist-insignia wearing red shirts over the previous months and warned everyone of the communist menace of the red shirt movement. How things change...

Some things don't change.

Could you reference one or two from this "parade" of images that occurred here during the past seven weeks that you've been a member?

Well I just spent about 10-15 minutes trying to find one but couldn't be bothered trawling through anymore threads - maybe I need to upgrade my search skills. Anyway, I believe myself and plenty of others can remember postings containing images of red shirt supporters wearing communist insignias and using that to suggest that the red shirt movement was all about communism. Maybe you don't remember that.

I am flattered by your attention to the length of my membership but fail to see what significance it has to this particular debate.

[tingtongfarang]

Indoctrination camps for the kids. Yeah that'll help.

i seem to remember in my history lessons ...a guy already tried this...was it called the hitler jugend?

[DocN]

So, let's get this straight: a party gets voted into office with a majority of votes. Another party doesn't like that and stages rallies, calling for a coup, which is not only criminal, but also stupid!

What do think will happen with the reds, if "their" PM gets ousted again?

They will slowly and silently ride into the sunset?

I would think otherwise.

In my opinion a coup will be the start of a wave of violence, where a burnt down shopping- center is the least of everyone's worries!

Unfortunately, the only way to get the PTT and UDD at bay is, if the "yellows" came up with some ideas to make the "reds" not so likeable and vote them out of office!

I say unfortunately, because I just don't see them do it!

Abisith may have an Oxford education and seen real democracy at work, but will he ever get to a point, where this will get relevant?

With the PAD, which still lives in yesteryear and is far from understanding (and wanting) democracy?

Or with the self- proclaimed protectors of Siam, who are not even living in yesteryear but in yestercentury?

Good luck with that!

Agree with much of that. So, can you suggest a solution? Otherwise, whatever anyone suggests or does leads to the square root of nothing. At the moment either the country will get raped by those in power or the country will end up raping itself.

Unfortunately, I don't see a solution, because what we see right now, is the consequence of many things that went "wrong" in the past. I am not a native english- speaker, so I do not know all the right political terms, but to cut it short: you can not just say "From tomorrow morning, we are a democracy"...and after that, everything will go as planed.

I see no real democracy here, which is mainly thanks to a hirarchy- thinking and the education to go with it.

You don't ask questions, especially not to elder or supremes- how can you have democracy without that?

There is no free speech, free expression, there is no education at all, that will lead to opinion- building.

The whole democratic idea is not enrooted in Thai- society, so in the end, we come back to a higher power, that makes decissions for the "children"...and let's face it: that is what most Thais are, with a mindset of (at best) 15 year olds.

I don't see a way out of this unfortunately.

No even the often talked about "civil war", because it will be no civil war. It will be the pawns of (and I am simplifying, for the sake of my point) red vs yellow, with the puppet- masters (PLURAL!) in the back, pulling the strings and collecting the rewards after the dust has settled.

In my dream world, I wished that a guy like Abisith, who I think would be able to lead, if he could shake of his own puppetmasters, could gather some decent people who could win the hearts of all Thais with honest and decent politics and policies.

But please...just have a look around this forum. We are ...what...90% from western democracies, that means we at least had a glimpse of how it could work and we do nothing but bickering!

How would I expect different from a country, where even average Bangkokians (by no means "the elite") is looking down on Isan- people as "buffalo-s hit"?!

I think, this country has not even started to rape itself!

I guess, there will be blood!

[Buchholz]

So funny hearing now that people who wear communist insignias aren't necessarily communist from posters of the same ilk as those who paraded images of communist-insignia wearing red shirts over the previous months and warned everyone of the communist menace of the red shirt movement. How things change...

Some things don't change.

Could you reference one or two from this "parade" of images that occurred here during the past seven weeks that you've been a member?

Well I just spent about 10-15 minutes trying to find one but couldn't be bothered trawling through anymore threads - maybe I need to upgrade my search skills. Anyway, I believe myself and plenty of others can remember postings containing images of red shirt supporters wearing communist insignias and using that to suggest that the red shirt movement was all about communism. Maybe you don't remember that.

I am flattered by your attention to the length of my membership but fail to see what significance it has to this particular debate.

What I do remember is that there have been occasional images (as opposed to a "parade") that reflected the undeniable reality that a notable faction of Red Shirts are communists and that none of those images have been posted during your weeks here on the forum.

What I don't remember is anyone posting the Red Shirts were "all about communism."

.

[15Peter20]

So funny hearing now that people who wear communist insignias aren't necessarily communist from posters of the same ilk as those who paraded images of communist-insignia wearing red shirts over the previous months and warned everyone of the communist menace of the red shirt movement. How things change...

Some things don't change.

Could you reference one or two from this "parade" of images that occurred here during the past seven weeks that you've been a member?

Well I just spent about 10-15 minutes trying to find one but couldn't be bothered trawling through anymore threads - maybe I need to upgrade my search skills. Anyway, I believe myself and plenty of others can remember postings containing images of red shirt supporters wearing communist insignias and using that to suggest that the red shirt movement was all about communism. Maybe you don't remember that.

I am flattered by your attention to the length of my membership but fail to see what significance it has to this particular debate.

What I do remember is that there have been occasional images (as opposed to a "parade") that reflected the undeniable reality that a notable faction of Red Shirts are communists and that none of those images have been posted during your weeks here on the forum.

What I don't remember is anyone posting the Red Shirts were "all about communism."

Fair enough, if that's your recollection.

By the way, I would think most people's time here on the forum did not begin on the day they signed up. Some people just like to browse without making a contribution, you see.

[h90]

Indoctrination camps for the kids. Yeah that'll help.

i seem to remember in my history lessons ...a guy already tried this...was it called the hitler jugend?

Yes the left had the same, even the catholic have the same....It is logic to press the young one into the "right" mold.

[h90]

So funny hearing now that people who wear communist insignias aren't necessarily communist from posters of the same ilk as those who paraded images of communist-insignia wearing red shirts over the previous months and warned everyone of the communist menace of the red shirt movement. How things change...

Some things don't change.

Could you reference one or two from this "parade" of images that occurred here during the past seven weeks that you've been a member?

Well I just spent about 10-15 minutes trying to find one but couldn't be bothered trawling through anymore threads - maybe I need to upgrade my search skills. Anyway, I believe myself and plenty of others can remember postings containing images of red shirt supporters wearing communist insignias and using that to suggest that the red shirt movement was all about communism. Maybe you don't remember that.

I am flattered by your attention to the length of my membership but fail to see what significance it has to this particular debate.

What I do remember is that there have been occasional images (as opposed to a "parade") that reflected the undeniable reality that a notable faction of Red Shirts are communists and that none of those images have been posted during your weeks here on the forum.

What I don't remember is anyone posting the Red Shirts were "all about communism."

.

But here are many different groups....the commies for sale, which are the red ones. Supporting the super rich Thaksin. Mostly armchair rich commies like Weng and his comedian wife. The conservative commies with the book (I have it seen myself but unfortunately didn't purchase that gem) "Communist Thailand with Buddhism as state religion and the King as head of state"...That would give Karli Marx something to think about.

That commies who protected the court against the red, who also went, at least 100 men in uniform, on the PAD stage and told that they pick up their weapons again if the reds attack the PAD. They live in communist towns on land they got during the Prem time.

And that does not even go into the different ideologies they have (Soviet/Chinese commies, and for the armchair: Stalinists, Marxists, Maoists, Leninists, Trotzkists).

Also one of the big car manufacturer is a hardcore communist, which doesn't prevent him from being super rich and paying his staff the minimum (I think only the evil capitalists do so)......

[rubl]

Well I just spent about 10-15 minutes trying to find one but couldn't be bothered trawling through anymore threads - maybe I need to upgrade my search skills. Anyway, I believe myself and plenty of others can remember postings containing images of red shirt supporters wearing communist insignias and using that to suggest that the red shirt movement was all about communism. Maybe you don't remember that.

I am flattered by your attention to the length of my membership but fail to see what significance it has to this particular debate.

What I do remember is that there have been occasional images (as opposed to a "parade") that reflected the undeniable reality that a notable faction of Red Shirts are communists and that none of those images have been posted during your weeks here on the forum.

What I don't remember is anyone posting the Red Shirts were "all about communism."

Fair enough, if that's your recollection.

By the way, I would think most people's time here on the forum did not begin on the day they signed up. Some people just like to browse without making a contribution, you see.

As a somewhat old-timer I can confirm that some of our members did not begin on the day(s) they signed up.

Anyway having a memory like an elephant has disadvantages I must admit

[fasteddie]

I guess the more people showing dissent may get the army to go ahead with a coup. Thailand can't cope much more with the red govt and its scams and corruption and out of control spending to line the pockets of the politicians and their clans. It may not be ideal but it has to be better that the present situation as I doubt Thailand can handle a full term of these arrogant imbeciles. I wonder what happened to governance by the people for the people.

I cannot believe you would say such a thing, to call for a coup against the wishes of the Thai people is wicked!

Shame on you!!!

[jayboy]

Did I suggest you were trying to confuse? The question I posed was a simple one - why are these old communists attending the Siam Pitak rally?I could undrstand it if they had renounced communism (which is opposed to all Siam Pitak stands for) but that is apparently not the case - they seem positively proud of it.Can you (vain hope of a sensible reply) or anybody else explain the thinking involved?

As for the communists in the redshirt camp one may like it or not like it but very misguided though they may be, there isn't an ideological inconsistency (furthering the cause of the great unwashed etc)

The Siam Pitak commies are just a puzzle.

I could venture an explanation but it's just a guess.It would go something like this.Given the history of Thailand in the last half century all sorts and conditions of men became involved on one side or another of the CPT struggle.Some quite surprising, General Surayud's father for example.After the total CPT defeat in the 1980's some hardliners sought a home in another anti democratic controlling ideology.

So, having Ms. Thida and her husband Dr. weng as UDD leaders is OK because that isn't an ideological inconsistency with hardliners seeking a new home in another anti-democratic controlling ideology.

I must admit to a certain level of confusion

You miss my point.It's neither OK nor the opposite, simply understandable.The presence of communists at Siam Pitak rally is simply inexplicable.That's why I sought a reasonable explanation not an argument

No it's not inexplicable. As already pointed out, the shirts & uniforms are simply a dress-code for certain groups at protest rallies.

So far, we've had the Nazis, fascists, commies, & marxist-leninists mentioned with reference to one or both sets of protesters. Like the BBC & other media, posters here seem to try and apply western-style political movements to Thailand. It doesn't work.

On one side is Thaksin - an arch (corrupt) capitalist -, the red shirt leaders - nothing but mercenaries -, the red shirt grass-roots - too many brainwashed & paid -, & PTP - full of the main family & it's supporters whose main aim is to line their pockets.

On the other side is Boonlert's supporters - mainly ex-military -, the yellow shirts - mainly middle-class taxpayers & trade unionists -, & the DP - less corrupt & not able to fund the same level of vote buying.

The red-shirt schools just look like a further brainwashing effort. The red villages are worse - a suppresion of free speech.

Thai 'democracy' is so shallow that it hardly merits the term. Thaksin directed PTP have two aims in mind. First control all the major institutions of the country & second make him leader. The result: a money-making machine like nothing seen yet.

What means are available to prevent this? The media helps, & there are many Thais who can see this happening but not enough, so far, to make a real difference. Then there is the army who do have the power to prevent a Thaksin presidency & will probably use it if serious violence breaks out over the amnesty. The police are not just useless but have lost what little respect they had because of their partiality.

I hope that people like Boonlert continue their protests because, if nothing else, it sends out a message that total control of the country should never be in the hands of a single individual, let alone a dangerous & corrupt one.

You say it's explicable but then fail to explain it.You talk about epithets flung here and there, and then proceed to a set of generalisations, and an irrelevant rant about yellows and reds.However that is not the point.We were specifically discussing the band of communists at the Siam Pitak rally (all the reports confirm these were genuine ex CPT types) proudly wearing uniforms from their past.I and others wanted to understand the mental gymnastics involved - and how they are happy to be associated with everything they once fought against.The behaviour is completely different from their erstwhile comrades in the Southern Provinces who retained their ideology to the end.If they have simply changed their minds that would be a satisfactory explanation - but there is no evidence of that.

So the matter remains a mystery and I am wondering if there is anyone with the knowledge (and intellectual focus) to clear it up.

[FOODLOVER]

I guess the more people showing dissent may get the army to go ahead with a coup. Thailand can't cope much more with the red govt and its scams and corruption and out of control spending to line the pockets of the politicians and their clans. It may not be ideal but it has to be better that the present situation as I doubt Thailand can handle a full term of these arrogant imbeciles. I wonder what happened to governance by the people for the people.

I cannot believe you would say such a thing, to call for a coup against the wishes of the Thai people is wicked!

Shame on you!!!

Which Thai people? The ones who sold their votes or the ones who are waiting for crap tablets? Maybe it's the rice importers who in cahoots with Thaksin and Hun Sen is sending tons of rice this way and selling it to the government for huge returns and ruining this countries finances for decades to come? Which ones?