12 Foreign Tourists Arrested On "visa Run"

[zzap]

This is getting hilarious:

"And I beleive that most of them where not tourists, it is well known that the visa run's are mostly

used by illegal workers."

When someone claims " it is well known", it usually means they take a wild guess they cannot substanciate.

If you are on 1 or 2 days overstay, you are most likely to be an "illegal worker"? :D

Sure, mate, dream on...

[Jiu-Jitsu]

These people were not leaving Thailand. They were making a border crossing in the hope of receiving another 30 days in Thailand without paying for a visa. Save your tears for those that deserve them. Nobody here is suggesting the hanging tree. What we are trying to do is overcome the bar room lawyer talk that convinces these people to violate the law instead of live within it. Overstay can have serious repercussions and everyone should be made aware of that fact.

Obviously some of the posters here do not take kindly to any laws; but that's another story.

What were you drinking when you wrote this nonsense?

"These people were not leaving Thailand." Oh yeah? Where were they going then?

When did Myanmar and Thailand agree to become one country?

"They were making a border crossing in the hope of receiving another 30 days in Thailand without paying for a visa."

More nonsense. You can't get a tourist visa from INSIDE the country. You HAVE to leave in order to get one.

Some people just think they are too smart.

I've had to do visa runs simply because of a change of plans, on many occasions.

Having a relationship with a fellow traveller, not realising that is is a THAI holiday with the result that immigration office is closed...

Remember that some people are on world travel and are travelling for the experience. Not all know where to go for definitive advice.

Maybe the KlugScheisse will realise why these forums, especially this one, exist.

[Maestro]

The whole visa run thing is bit of farce, whats the point of making some one step over border for a couple of days, and what about people with those WP's that still have to do visa runs every 3 months, ok its Los and it's their laws, but some of the laws are just plain stupid

You are talking about two different categories – tourists and foreign workers – and none of them *have* to do visa-avoidance border runs or visa runs.

Tourists are assumed to be people who visit Thailand for a short time for the purpose of, well, tourism. They are assumed to be people who have a job back home and who are not likely to get more than 1 or 2 months vacation every year.

Foreign workers with a work permit, I always understood, can get a non-immigrant visa with annual extensions.

Non-tourists without work permit have the possibility of a non-immigrant visa with annual extensions. Yes, that costs money, and the system is designed that way on purpose. But yes, you are right, that purpose is voided by the fact that people can stay in Thailand for years on end by doing monthly border runs. To allow this routinely does, indeed, make little sense except to leave open the possibility for Immigration to deny entry to a border runner if and when considered appropriate, or to clamp down generally if the country should become overpopulated with them. In other words, they are tolerated – perhaps even welcome – as long as it suits the country, but that is a situation you find in a lot of countries, while some other countries are very strict on a permanent basis.

---------------

Maestro

[zzap]

"Maybe the KlugScheisse will realise why these forums, especially this one, exist."

Nein, nein, Lopburi is extremely helpful most of the time.

It just seems to be part of the 'TV-culture' not to show any sympathy for anybody who falls on the wrong side of "the law", and as far as overstay is concerned, repeat with me: DO NOT OVERSTAY!

[Rinrada]

We established ages ago that they were on their way to the border to pay a fine and comply with the law. So, now you are saying that it is improper use use a border?

Dont think that you would ever get away with that logic in LOS...

You pay a FINE when you BREAK the law.

Anyway dont think that the famous 12 will get another chance by the sound of it.

So assuming that that they have all now been DEPORTED with big black stamps in their PPs (NOT wanted -dont come FFFing back here you illegal immigrant trash)having spent some time in a Thai poki as well as seeing a big chunk of dosh taking out of their piggy banks to pay for the rip off Full Fare single tickets back home to mum.....what 2 do now.?...Something to brag about in their local pubs I suppose.

At the same time the LEGALS will be back on the beach/in their gin jointsat work or simply sunning themselves waxing lyrical with a bit of " there but for the grace of ........(insert what ever god you go for)......etc"...dont seem fair does it but as they say....life can be a bit.........

MPRAI

[Maestro]

"Maybe the KlugScheisse will realise why these forums, especially this one, exist."

Nein, nein, Lopburi is extremely helpful most of the time.

You seem to be quoting another poster in that first line but I cannot figure out whom.

Anyway, I am glad to see that you, or whoever, takes an interest in the German language and therefore – and for no other reason – I would like to mention that the word – an interesting word, that – is correctly spelt Klugscheisser (both singular and plural. Don’t know if for a female it would be Klugscheisserin; I guess so, and politically correct the plural, if referring to such persons of both or unknown sexes, would be “Klugscheisserinnen und Klugscheisser”. A lot of clever shit piling up there! )

---------------

Maestro

[Sunny Valentine]

Are you assuming they were too dumb to be able to read a permitted to stay stamp? I don't believe they were dumb but I do believe they probably listened to the wrong people.

Probably. And this includes Immigration who in many known cases (one case I reported, happened to me 2 years and some month ago) told people its ok to pay the fine at the border.

So, please tell me, who (apart from thaivisa.com of course) are the right people to ask for advice?

And maybe you can try to get signs in english, german, chinese, japanese, french, dutch, spanish and korean at all border stations stating that

"tourists needing further advice on the topics of visas, overstay, permisions to stay, work permits: please don't bother to ask "competetent" authorities in this country, because there are none. Please address all your questions to the moderators of thaivisa.com! They alone might be able to answer your questions. If you fail to do so, you risk arrest and deportation!

You have been warned!

thaivisa.com"

Edited February 14, 2006 by Sunny Valentine

[zzap]

"Rinrada: So assuming that that they have all now been DEPORTED with big black stamps in their PPs (NOT wanted -dont come FFFing back here you illegal immigrant trash)having spent some time in a Thai poki as well as seeing a big chunk of dosh taking out of their piggy banks to pay for the rip off Full Fare single tickets back home to mum....."

You're assuming rather a lot...you're not trying to wind up anyone, are you? Are you sure you're a 'moderator' here?

"Maestro: You seem to be quoting another poster in that first line but I cannot figure out whom." Post 243, Jiu-Jitsu, last line before your post. Sorry the quote function doesn't work on my extremely slow connection tonight.

Edited February 14, 2006 by zzap

[Rinrada]

"So assuming that that they have all now been DEPORTED with big black stamps in their PPs (NOT wanted -dont come FFFing back here you illegal immigrant trash)having spent some time in a Thai poki as well as seeing a big chunk of dosh taking out of their piggy banks to pay for the rip off Full Fare single tickets back home to mum....."

You're assuming rather a lot...you're not trying to wind up anyone, are you? Are you sure you're a 'moderator' here? :D

Not only that but talking from experience as well

[zzap]

Not only that but talking from experience as well

Wow...

NOT wanted -dont come FFFing back here you illegal immigrant trash

- what an experience to have this written in your passport!

When did this happen to you? What did you do? Can you come back now, got a new passport or what?

Edited February 14, 2006 by zzap

[Maestro]

“You seem to be quoting another poster in that first line but I cannot figure out whom."

Post 243, Jiu-Jitsu, last line before your post. Sorry the quote function doesn't work on my extremely slow connection tonight.

Thank you, Zzap. I had been searching for it, but obviously wrongly.

So it is Jiu-Jitsu who is taking an interest in the German language. An extremely difficult language to study as a foreign language, in my opinion.

But that’s all off topic, I apologise.

---------------

Maestro

[zzap]

I reckon he was just trying to be smart.

A bit unfair, really.

But then, we've seen a few 'unfair' comments by posters who should know better...

[Rinrada]

Not only that but talking from experience as well

Wow...

NOT wanted -dont come FFFing back here you illegal immigrant trash

- what an experience to have this written in your passport!

When did this happen to you? What did you do? Can you come back now, got a new passport or what?

First time got deported from.......Australia.. ...usually the other way round

Second time from Saudi Arabia......real fun guys....... a sala a leekum....

Third time.... a big Africian country on the west coast...... ...not so funny...

Fourth.................

Fifth...

...all part of the tapestry of life ...innit

in LOS obey the law and ENJOY.......

[Maestro]

We established ages ago that they were on their way to the border to pay a fine and comply with the law. So, now you are saying that it is improper use use a border?

Dont think that you would ever get away with that logic in LOS...

You pay a FINE when you BREAK the law.

There has been a lot of talk about the law in this thread and I have glossed over it until I came to this post of yours, Rinrada, and then I took the trouble of looking it up, the English translation of the Immigration Act, that is.

Section 54 : Any alien who enters or come to stay in the Kingdom without permission or when such permission expires or is revoked , the competent official will deport such alien out of the Kingdom.

I have also looked through the 24 sections relating to penalties and nowhere does it say that a tourist who overstays his visa is subject to payment of a fine. Deportation is the only recourse provided by the law.

The only mention of a penalty of 200 Baht per day can be found in Section 76:

Section 76 : Any alien, alien, who fails to comply with the provisions of Section 37(2),(3),(4)or(5) shall be punished with a fine not exceeding 5,000 Baht and with and additional fine not exceeding 200 Baht for each day which passes until the law is complied with.

The violations to which that penalty applies are these:

Section 37 : An alien having received a temporary entry permit into the Kingdom must comply with the following :

...

2. Shall stay at the place as indicated to the competent official. Where there is proper reason that he cannot stay at the place as indicated to the competent official, he shall notify the competent official of the change in residence , within 24 hours from the time of removing to said place.

3. Shall notify the police official of the local police station where such alien resides, within twenty – four hours from the time of arrival. In the case of change in residence in which new residence is not located the same area with the former police stations , such alien must notify the police official of the police station for that area within twenty – four hours from the time of arrival.

4. If the alien travels to any province and will stay there longer than twenty – four hours , such alien must notify the police official of the police station for that area within forty – eight hours from the time of arrival.

5. If the alien stays in the Kingdom longer than ninety days, such alien must notify the competent official at the Immigration Division , in writing , concerning his place of stay , as soon as possible upon expiration of ninety days. The alien is required to do so every ninety days. Where there is an Immigration Office , the alien may notify a competent Immigration Official of that office.

The provision of ( 3 ) and ( 4 ) shall not apply to any cases under Section 34 by any conditions as prescribed by the Director General.

In making notification under this Section , the alien may make notification in person or send a letter of notification to the competent official , in accordance with the regulations prescribed by the Director General .

If anybody can find a provision in any law or Ministerial Regulation about a 200-Baht fine per day of overstay I should like to hear about it, for my knowledge.

It rather seems to me that the collection of a fine of 200 Baht per day of overstay at the border point is an act of expedience and leniency, as it would make little sense at that point to arrest and then deport the tourist.

It also means that the Ranong police, once they had arrested the overstaying tourists, had no other legal option but to deport them. Offering to let them go against payment of 5,000 Baht was an act of corruption – or, if you want, an act of leniency – that would obviously have been worth the tourists’ while to take up, more so since it would probably have been possible to haggle that amount down, Thai style.

And the morale of the story is, as Lopburi and others never tire of saying: DO NOT OVERSTAY! Period.

---------------

Maestro

[george]

Ranong 12 finally set free

RANONG: -- “The Ranong 12”, a group of 12 foreign tourists arrested on the morning of February 8 for overstaying their visas, were freed on Sunday.

The most that any of the 12 had overstayed was six days. Others were just 24 hours over the limit.

During their five-day ordeal they spent the first two nights on dirty police cell floors in Kapoe District and the next two locked up in minibuses on overnight journeys to and from Bangkok, where they were sent to be processed for deportation.

The detainees were eventually spared deportation from Bangkok following successful negotiations between their embassies and top Immigration officials in the capital.

They were then returned, still under detention, to Ranong, from where they finally left the country under expulsion orders. They then re-entered the country as free men an d women on new tourist visas.

The arrests have caused confusion and fear among foreign tourists and resident expats, who for years have been able to depart the country after overstaying – within reason – their permit-to-stay by simply paying a 200-baht-a-day fine.

One of the 12 arrested, Australian Chris Taylor, 31, told the Gazette today, “We were under arrest the whole time … when we weren’t locked in a cage we were being escorted by Immigration or other police officials … many people did not sleep at all for the whole time … They weren’t giving us information, and when they did give us information they lied to us,” he said.

He said that when he finally got back to Phuket, nobody could believe he had been locked up for five days because of a one-day overstay.

“The way we were treated was shocking … Some of the food I couldn’t eat; it was jus t bloody dog food. The Kapoe Police did their best to accommodate us; they tried to make us comfortable. They did their best with the sleeping arrangements, but I don’t think they really knew what was going on.

“But the Tourist Police, Immigration Police in Bangkok and especially the Immigration Police in Ranong, none could speak English at all – and they were very rude, treating us like crap,” he said.

He said that the day before his tourist visa was set to expire he went to Phuket Immigration, where he was told that a one-day overstay would not cause a problem.

“‘Just do a visa run tomorrow and pay a 200-baht fine,’ they told me,” he said, adding that they should have advised him to extend his visa by 10 days then and there as he faced possible arrest as an overstay.

Despite all the discomfort, he said he would continue his vacation in Thail and by making new reservations for a flight to Chiang Mai, as his original tickets had expired and were non-refundable.

“I am just tired and need to rest for a few days first,” he said.

Australian Embassy officials in Bangkok had done an extraordinary job in negotiating with Thai Immigration officials in Bangkok, he added.

Another member of the group, Swede Olaf Fredling, also said he would not let the experience put him off vacationing in Thailand. Like his Australian co-detainee, he said the actions of a few didn’t reflect badly on all of Thailand.

“But my feet are really bad right now from all the standing around. We never got a chance to lay down … but sure, I am going to stay in Thailand,” he said.

Janpen Munsa, owner of the Penphet Visa Run Company, said the arrests were unprecedented in the company’s six-year hist ory and had hurt her business because former customers now feared arrest if they use it.

“The company is registered as visa run business, but they arrested [our customers] – using rude words and bad behavior,” she said, adding that hers is just one of three companies providing the service.

“Why was our vehicle pulled over and our overstayed customers singled out?” she wanted to know.

Anchalee Praphut, owner of Angelina Travel and Tour Agency, which arranged the visa tour for one of the overstays, said the whole episode had sullied the reputation of the Tourist Police.

She had to plead with the police to allow two of the group who were diabetic to have insulin shots, which they had to pay for themselves.

She called on the Tourism Authority of Thailand (TAT) to look into the matter, saying that TAT efforts to promote tourism abroad would be all for nothing if the Tourist Police treated foreign tourists so badly after they arrived.

Ranong Governor Mekin Methawikul, who was informed of the issue by K. Anchalee, told the Gazette that he had sent a formal request to the head of the Ranong Tourist Police for a report about the incident.

He said that the Tourist Police Chief told him that there had been cases of foreigners using the visa runs to smuggle ya bah (methamphetamine) into the country from Burma, so his staff needed to check foreigners on visa runs carefully.

As the Tourist Police do not have the authority to stop moving vehicles, they had called on the Highway Police for assistance. Another bus on a visa run that followed shortly thereafter was allowed to pass by because the police did not want to create traffic congestion, the Governor said.

Gov Mek in added that, as the arresting officers were low-level police, it was unrealistic to expect them to communicate well in English.

“The tour company staff, who speak English, should have explained to the tourists what was going on,” he said.

“I admit this type of thing has never before happened in Ranong and I have told the Tourist Police to prevent this kind of thing from happening [again]. Still, I think the officers did their jobs according to procedure,” he said.

Meanwhile, a Gazette reader with an expired permit to stay reported that he flew out of Bangkok to Kuala Lumpur with no problems at all – not even a fine.

Indeed, when he asked Immigration in Bangkok why they were not fining him, he was told, “Your permit expired less than 24 hours ago, so we are not going to fine you.”

“But I want to pay,” the t raveler said. “I really do. Please let me pay, because I don’t want to find, three years from now, that I am in trouble for not paying.”

He was escorted to the office of a captain of Immigration Police who stamped his passport with a special stamp stating, “[The passport holder] has overstayed his visa by one day (not more than 24 hours) and has thus been cleared, as specified under the orders of the Immigration Division 2 Inspector.”

Clearly, Immigration – whose job it is to keep an eye on and regulate all foreigners – do not regard a short overstay as being a great crime – unlike the Tourist and Highway Police of Ranong.

--Phuket Gazette 2006-02-14

[Sunny Valentine]

Good news at last!

Now I hope all those 'it#s the law' bloodhounds here repent .....

Sunny

[Maestro]

He said that the day before his tourist visa was set to expire he went to Phuket Immigration, where he was told that a one-day overstay would not cause a problem.

“‘Just do a visa run tomorrow and pay a 200-baht fine,’ they told me,” he said, adding that they should have advised him to extend his visa by 10 days then and there as he faced possible arrest as an overstay.

This is really the crux of the problem, isn’t it? One day, an overstaying tourist is told simply to do a border run the following day, and the next day he gets arrested and incarcerated (OK, “detained while awaiting deportation” is the correct term in this situation)

This pervasive leniency on the part of Immigration offices practically encourages those tourists who try to save a few Baht by delaying their border runs a little, to overstay by a few days every time.

DO NOT OVERSTAY, regardless what other people, including immigration officials, say about it being “no problem, just pay the fine when you leave”.

---------------

Maestro

[Maestro]

Now I hope all those 'it#s the law' bloodhounds here repent .....

Despite this happy(?) ending, it is still the law and I am sure you would not advise anybody to overstay deliberately and thus take the risk of going through the same experience these 12 tourists had. Which is not to say that these 12 did, in fact, overstay deliberately but one may be forgiven for suspecting it.

---------------

Maestro

[lung]

tomorrow i make visa

maybe i get some cake and tee from the immi-staff ?

[zzap]

Ranong 12 finally set free

...

He said that the Tourist Police Chief told him that there had been cases of foreigners using the visa runs to smuggle ya bah (methamphetamine) into the country from Burma, so his staff needed to check foreigners on visa runs carefully.

So they needed to hold them for 5 days on their way to Burma. Checked them very thoroughly, before they even got to Burma, did they? Thai police keeping drug dealers off the street for you!

Another bus on a visa run that followed shortly thereafter was allowed to pass by because the police did not want to create traffic congestion, the Governor said.

Yeah, sure, can't stop the next busload of ya bah smugglers if it causes 'traffic congestion'....

Gov Mek in added that, as the arresting officers were low-level police, it was unrealistic to expect them to communicate well in English.

“The tour company staff, who speak English, should have explained to the tourists what was going on,” he said.

After carefully preparing this raid, involving tourist and local police, nobody could speak English, and that's the fault of the tour company.

The insolent lies after the event are even more insulting than the actual deed.

What about 'the law' coming down hard on these scheming incompetent officials? Where is the "hang 'em high" TV mob now?

Edited February 14, 2006 by zzap

[Krub]

By the way, we are talking of a mistake here, not purposely overstaying.

These people were fully aware when they had to leave but chose to overstay. They were purposely overstaying in the belief that the consequences would not be that great and they could afford the normal fine for there illegal actions. Do Not Overstay.

Almost forgot. You have just validated an argument that many have stated..."They were purposely overstaying in the belief that the consequences would not be that great and they could afford the normal fine for there illegal actions."

This validates the argument of the way that this law has 2 punishments. How can anyone be expected to make a reasonable & sensible judgement under these conditions? You stated that these people believed (logically from reasonable authority no doubt...& don't give me this cr*p about the immigration website that refuses to load) that an overstay only incurred a fine, yet the cops say another thing. What is a white boy gunna do? Probably take the logically easier "Thai recommended' way out or surrender to the cops, pay a "fine" (yeah, right) & then go to gaol. Are you nuts? What would you do? If you say "I'd go to gaol", I'll kiss my b*m all the way to the moon & back.

Yes it seems Thailand has 2 kinds of punishments for the overstay.

I quite like the fact that it does exist and it shows how considerate Thailand is to casual overtayers who are on the way out. Just pay a few baht and be on your way although you have overstayed.

However this is abused and taken for granted and this is where it is wrong.

The overstayers were unlucky but they took the willing risk of overstaying and had no intention to leave the country, just make a run for another 30 days stay (again an abuse of the system as if you want to stay longer than the 30 days on arrival there are other visas to choose from)

[dr_Pat_Pong]

By the way, we are talking of a mistake here, not purposely overstaying.

These people were fully aware when they had to leave but chose to overstay. They were purposely overstaying in the belief that the consequences would not be that great and they could afford the normal fine for there illegal actions. Do Not Overstay.

Almost forgot. You have just validated an argument that many have stated..."They were purposely overstaying in the belief that the consequences would not be that great and they could afford the normal fine for there illegal actions."

This validates the argument of the way that this law has 2 punishments. How can anyone be expected to make a reasonable & sensible judgement under these conditions? You stated that these people believed (logically from reasonable authority no doubt...& don't give me this cr*p about the immigration website that refuses to load) that an overstay only incurred a fine, yet the cops say another thing. What is a white boy gunna do? Probably take the logically easier "Thai recommended' way out or surrender to the cops, pay a "fine" (yeah, right) & then go to gaol. Are you nuts? What would you do? If you say "I'd go to gaol", I'll kiss my b*m all the way to the moon & back.

Yes it seems Thailand has 2 kinds of punishments for the overstay.

I quite like the fact that it does exist and it shows how considerate Thailand is to casual overtayers who are on the way out. Just pay a few baht and be on your way although you have overstayed.

However this is abused and taken for granted and this is where it is wrong.

The overstayers were unlucky but they took the willing risk of overstaying and had no intention to leave the country, just make a run for another 30 days stay (again an abuse of the system as if you want to stay longer than the 30 days on arrival there are other visas to choose from)

[Krub]

Glad they were allowed (finaly) to be set free. Good for them.

This also shows that Thailand (in its own way) can and do realize when they act too severely. It took them a bit long but TIT

[britmaveric]

Glad they were allowed (finaly) to be set free. Good for them.

This also shows that Thailand (in its own way) can and do realize when they act too severely. It took them a bit long but TIT

Too severely - I can guaranteed you those lot won't ever overstay again, so I think the point has been made to at least these few overstayers!!

[sriracha john]

Look at TAT statistics on spending per day, and Japanese, Indians and middle easterners are significantly higher for the most part.

5,000 illegal immigrants a year in Australia; I'd say there are more illegal westerners living and working in Thailand than that.

Two claims that would be nice to have some documentary evidence of.....

[sriracha john]

Ranong 12 finally set free

with the beloved Dr. Martin Luther King's immortal words ringing in the background....

"Free At Last!..... FREE AT LAST!! THANK GOD ALMIGHTY, I'M FREE AT LAST!!"

Ranong 12 finally set free

Were the Ranong 12 smuggling as much drugs as the Bali 9 or were they out to topple the government like the Chicago 7?

Edited February 14, 2006 by sriracha john

[Gulliver_in_LOS]

This also shows that Thailand (in its own way) can and do realize when they act too severely. It took them a bit long but TIT

Are you serious??? What about the treatment of the Burmese refugees? Media freedom restrictions? Political assassinations and disappearances? etc.

I advise you to read this report on human rights in Thailand before making such no-sense statements.

[Krub]

This also shows that Thailand (in its own way) can and do realize when they act too severely. It took them a bit long but TIT

Are you serious??? What about the treatment of the Burmese refugees? Media freedom restrictions? Political assassinations and disappearances? etc.

I advise you to read this report on human rights in Thailand before making such no-sense statements.

I was making a comment of the 12 foreign tourists arrested on the visa run, the subject of this thread.

[lopburi3]

Contrary to what some people may think I am most happy that this incident has ended without the deportation. Nor do I advocate different punishment for different people. And if this has opened the window on that so much the better (the fact that we have had this lively discussion may have had a positive effect). And that would not have been possible without people taking both sides. But I can and will not take a position in a public forum that could lead persons to get into trouble. And unless/until there is a formal change I will not be advising anyone to overstay.

I believe this was what others were trying to get across also. Don't take a chance or you may pay the price.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Contrary to what some people may think I am most happy that this incident has ended without the deportation. Nor do I advocate different punishment for different people. And if this has opened the window on that so much the better (the fact that we have had this lively discussion may have had a positive effect). And that would not have been possible without people taking both sides. But I can and will not take a position in a public forum that could lead persons to get into trouble. And unless/until there is a formal change I will not be advising anyone to overstay.

I believe this was what others were trying to get across also. Don't take a chance or you may pay the price.

Absolutely