12 Foreign Tourists Arrested On "visa Run"

[Noel]

But why did the Aussie that overstayed only 1 day wanted to do a visa run if he anyways has planned to leave the country 2 days later ????

He should have had better information

I don't think that anywhere in the report it said he was planning to leave the country in 2 days, did it?

Not that I have read.

Was he not booked to fly to Chiang Mai?

[elkangorito]

There are still the 'red necked' contol freaks, declaring that the 'law is the law' (any fool can recite this) & still the reasonable people are asking the 'red necks' to explain the law. From what I have seen, no explanation has been given. But I do think that the best explanation was given by maestro, who was one of the very rare & fortunate individuals to be able to access the Immigration website (I still can't do this).

As for tourists coming to Thailand, how the hel_l are they going to get correct & accurate information about this obviously oblique law? Will they just need to access the Thai Immigration Website that cannot be accessed or will they consult any number of the bloodlusting control freaks who insist on saying redundant things like 'the law is the law'. How can they get the required information? Please, can some control freak help with this?

I've just reviewed my passport. The reason that I overstayed once was because the stamp was;

1) Placed on top of another stamp.

2) The hand writing was illegible.

3) It took a Thai policeman friend to point this out to me.

By the time he pointed this out to me, I was more than 3 days overstayed. He informed me that I should immediately go to the nearest immigration office and PAY AN OVERSTAY FINE!.

OOPS!!!! Isn't that a kick in the bum for all the "the law is the law" freaks!

Can someone tell me whom to believe? Can someone tell the tourists whom to believe?

BTW, previous posters have stated that the 'overstayers' were going to get a "free" visa renewal. Where the <deleted>*ck does this happen? Not in Thailand...not in any country.

There is no longer any aguement about this. It's clear that the Thai Immigration law is NOT clear or readily available. Until such times as passports are stamped legibly & Thai Immigration law is not ambiguous, any over-stayers are NOT GUILTY!!!!!!!!!

What handwriting are you talking about elkangorito?

When one gets "stamped" in by Thai Immigration, its exactly that. A STAMP (in english)

So how the hel_l could the "hand writing be illegible."

If your "Thai Police friend" can read the english stamp in your passport better than you can, I can understand why you overstayed 3 days.

Pity he didn't put you in the slammer so you could enjoy another aspect of "overstay"

The date stamp was as such, a stamp but handwriting obscured this. It didn't seem to be a signature as there were several words (in Thai) forming this handwriting. It was my policeman friend who was able to interpret all of the above.

One can only hope that YOU don't suffer the same situation. Maybe if you do, you will "voluntarily" take yourself to "the slammer". CONTROL FREAK.

When one gets "stamped" in by Thai Immigration, its exactly that. A STAMP (in english)

So how the hel_l could the "hand writing be illegible."

Just checked my passport, have 9 stamps "admitted" right now. 6 of them with stamped date (one of them smeared, rather unreadable, unless you know what you are supposed t oread), and three with handwritten date, two of them with a good handwriting, one definitely not!

Get a life!

Sunny

Thanks Sunny

[Maestro]

"Stupid maybe. But a very natural one, except for those like you who get intellectually or otherwise arroused by legal matters." A lame attempt to insult me. You should speak to others on the forum they do much better.

Thank you for this, Old Croc, it produced my first chuckle of the day...well, a little more than a chuckle.

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Maestro

[Maestro]

Was he not booked to fly to Chiang Mai?

No Chiang Mai mentioned, neither in the first report in the Phuket Gazette, nor in the follow-up report posted in this thread.

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Maestro

[elkangorito]

It has also occurred to me that on my "visa runs", I was not given a 30 day visa. After 2 or 3 visa runs, I learnt & I was told, that there is no rhyme or reason for this strange occurrance. I've since learnt never to expect a 30 day renewal...even if I arrive at the border on the day of my visa expiry. So, to all you control freak, red neck "the law is the law" types, how is a tourist gunna deal with this? Also not forgetting the 'stamping/hand writing' issue?

Again, the situation WILL NOT be resolved until "the law(s)" are no longer ambiguous (which they currently are).

I'm sick of hearing control freaks recite that "the law is the law". There are too many discrepancies to be 'simplistic' about. I hope that none of you "law abiding" citizens get into trouble because of simple misunderstandings or misinterpretations. The minute you do get into trouble, I'll bet you will scream 'blue murder' on this site OR trot yourself off to prison...as you would have all the other people do for committing such grave crimes as a 1 or 2 day overstay. Of course, all of you will say that you will never get into trouble because you follow the LAW...IF you can understand & interpret stamps, handwriting etc.

And why be so 'blood lusting'? How will a total stranger 'overstaying' affect you? Nobody has yet answered this question.

Edited February 16, 2006 by elkangorito

[Noel]

Was he not booked to fly to Chiang Mai?

No Chiang Mai mentioned, neither in the first report in the Phuket Gazette, nor in the follow-up report posted in this thread.

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Maestro

I was pretty sure I had read it somewhere:

Ranong 12 finally set free

RANONG: -- “The Ranong 12”, a group of 12 foreign tourists arrested on the morning of February 8 for overstaying their visas, were freed on Sunday.

The most that any of the 12 had overstayed was six days. Others were just 24 hours over the limit.

During their five-day ordeal they spent the first two nights on dirty police cell floors in Kapoe District and the next two locked up in minibuses on overnight journeys to and from Bangkok, where they were sent to be processed for deportation.

The detainees were eventually spared deportation from Bangkok following successful negotiations between their embassies and top Immigration officials in the capital.

They were then returned, still under detention, to Ranong, from where they finally left the country under expulsion orders. They then re-entered the country as free men an d women on new tourist visas.

The arrests have caused confusion and fear among foreign tourists and resident expats, who for years have been able to depart the country after overstaying – within reason – their permit-to-stay by simply paying a 200-baht-a-day fine.

One of the 12 arrested, Australian Chris Taylor, 31, told the Gazette today, “We were under arrest the whole time … when we weren’t locked in a cage we were being escorted by Immigration or other police officials … many people did not sleep at all for the whole time … They weren’t giving us information, and when they did give us information they lied to us,” he said.

He said that when he finally got back to Phuket, nobody could believe he had been locked up for five days because of a one-day overstay.

“The way we were treated was shocking … Some of the food I couldn’t eat; it was jus t bloody dog food. The Kapoe Police did their best to accommodate us; they tried to make us comfortable. They did their best with the sleeping arrangements, but I don’t think they really knew what was going on.

“But the Tourist Police, Immigration Police in Bangkok and especially the Immigration Police in Ranong, none could speak English at all – and they were very rude, treating us like crap,” he said.

He said that the day before his tourist visa was set to expire he went to Phuket Immigration, where he was told that a one-day overstay would not cause a problem.

“‘Just do a visa run tomorrow and pay a 200-baht fine,’ they told me,” he said, adding that they should have advised him to extend his visa by 10 days then and there as he faced possible arrest as an overstay.

Despite all the discomfort, he said he would continue his vacation in Thail and by making new reservations for a flight to Chiang Mai, as his original tickets had expired and were non-refundable.

“I am just tired and need to rest for a few days first,” he said.

Australian Embassy officials in Bangkok had done an extraordinary job in negotiating with Thai Immigration officials in Bangkok, he added.

Another member of the group, Swede Olaf Fredling, also said he would not let the experience put him off vacationing in Thailand. Like his Australian co-detainee, he said the actions of a few didn’t reflect badly on all of Thailand.

“But my feet are really bad right now from all the standing around. We never got a chance to lay down … but sure, I am going to stay in Thailand,” he said.

Janpen Munsa, owner of the Penphet Visa Run Company, said the arrests were unprecedented in the company’s six-year hist ory and had hurt her business because former customers now feared arrest if they use it.

“The company is registered as visa run business, but they arrested [our customers] – using rude words and bad behavior,” she said, adding that hers is just one of three companies providing the service.

“Why was our vehicle pulled over and our overstayed customers singled out?” she wanted to know.

Anchalee Praphut, owner of Angelina Travel and Tour Agency, which arranged the visa tour for one of the overstays, said the whole episode had sullied the reputation of the Tourist Police.

She had to plead with the police to allow two of the group who were diabetic to have insulin shots, which they had to pay for themselves.

She called on the Tourism Authority of Thailand (TAT) to look into the matter, saying that TAT efforts to promote tourism abroad would be all for nothing if the Tourist Police treated foreign tourists so badly after they arrived.

Ranong Governor Mekin Methawikul, who was informed of the issue by K. Anchalee, told the Gazette that he had sent a formal request to the head of the Ranong Tourist Police for a report about the incident.

He said that the Tourist Police Chief told him that there had been cases of foreigners using the visa runs to smuggle ya bah (methamphetamine) into the country from Burma, so his staff needed to check foreigners on visa runs carefully.

As the Tourist Police do not have the authority to stop moving vehicles, they had called on the Highway Police for assistance. Another bus on a visa run that followed shortly thereafter was allowed to pass by because the police did not want to create traffic congestion, the Governor said.

Gov Mek in added that, as the arresting officers were low-level police, it was unrealistic to expect them to communicate well in English.

“The tour company staff, who speak English, should have explained to the tourists what was going on,” he said.

“I admit this type of thing has never before happened in Ranong and I have told the Tourist Police to prevent this kind of thing from happening [again]. Still, I think the officers did their jobs according to procedure,” he said.

Meanwhile, a Gazette reader with an expired permit to stay reported that he flew out of Bangkok to Kuala Lumpur with no problems at all – not even a fine.

Indeed, when he asked Immigration in Bangkok why they were not fining him, he was told, “Your permit expired less than 24 hours ago, so we are not going to fine you.”

“But I want to pay,” the t raveler said. “I really do. Please let me pay, because I don’t want to find, three years from now, that I am in trouble for not paying.”

He was escorted to the office of a captain of Immigration Police who stamped his passport with a special stamp stating, “[The passport holder] has overstayed his visa by one day (not more than 24 hours) and has thus been cleared, as specified under the orders of the Immigration Division 2 Inspector.”

Clearly, Immigration – whose job it is to keep an eye on and regulate all foreigners – do not regard a short overstay as being a great crime – unlike the Tourist and Highway Police of Ranong.

--Phuket Gazette 2006-02-14

[steveromagnino]

Look at TAT statistics on spending per day, and Japanese, Indians and middle easterners are significantly higher for the most part.

5,000 illegal immigrants a year in Australia; I'd say there are more illegal westerners living and working in Thailand than that.

Two claims that would be nice to have some documentary evidence of.....

Well, you can get the TAT stats, and check out:

spending per day

spending on retail per day

You will see Japanese, Koreans, Indians, Middle easterners - for our market anyway (luxury retail) they rate FAR higher than most farang groups. not surprising really, how many Japanese do you see in LV stores compared to white people?

HOwever, online, you can check out this very out of date study from 1991:

http://www.unescap.org/ttdw/Publications/T...ub_1052_tor.pdf

This study is out of date, but it is online, so you can check it for yourself - the TAT data you'll have to buy I suspect. As it stands now, some bozo has hidden our copy at work.

You see the highest spend per day (all expenditure pg 12) is USA of the farangs at 2910b and the remainder of westerners from Europe America, Oceania are all around the 1700-2400b range, then check out Japanese at 4224b Taiwan at 3600b per day. Back then, when India was super poor and they weren't flying here for luxury fashion, they were still spending 2600b a day and Middle easterners are about 2500b a day. Back then of westerners, ONLY USA tourists had daily spend of more than 2500b a day.

Looking at length of stay, which has not changed that much, Asians are here briefly, and spend a lot per day. Westerners tend to be here longer, and spend less per day. Again, this is no surprise, but I cannot disclose our own customer data other than to say that if you ask any luxury retailer in Thailand what percentage of their customers are of European, American or Australian/NZ ethnicity only Armani will give an answer of more than 10% and that is because there are a TON of Russians who like to buy it. When you consider that someone may spend say 200,000b in one shopping expedition over the weekend, well it take a VERY expensive hotel + food + everthing else to get even close to that amount. Retail spending per day drives overall expenditure per day.

With regards to the second claim, there are estimated to be 50,000 illegal immigrants working in Australia, total.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_t...legal_migration

http://www.immi.gov.au/annual_report/annre...l/output1_3.htm (go to the analysis of performance section, they state under 51,000)

How many come in each year? They estimated in 2003, there were 60,000 overstayers, which then reduced to 51,000 about in 2004, and they caught and removed about 13,000 people who had cancelled documents (i.e. had overstayed or were illegal) so that is about 13-9 = 4000 overstayers new to the system coming in. We can calculate that from the link above.

In another link that i had previously used, but did not document, they suggested there were about 5000 illegal migrants coming in per year. THat is not significantly different I think, and well within the realm of guestimate.

So... how do I then get to the conclusion that there are more than 5,000 westerners here being here illegally and working illegally? Based on the number of english teachers I know with incorrect documentation and holding the job illegally because they have no work permit; the DJs and models (none of whom I know to be carrying a work permit at all); the number of people doing Visa runs for years and earning money somehow to stay in call centres/time share etc; the number of people overstaying and doing odd jobs in back packer type places/rock climbing places etc...and then there are the (mostly) east european sex workers.

http://www.hangoverguide.com/over/factbook...exindustry.html

estimates 10,000 Russian sex workers, I think that is crazy; perhaps 1000 might be more accurate

I doubt this estimate is available officially, but I'll see if I can get an unofficial number. I know there are tens of thousands of illegal immigrants here, but mostly from surrounding countries.

I can guess that at any given time, there might be around 500 extras and perhaps a further 500 people modelling or working in that industry in BKK only.

Regarding teaching, AFAIK the minimum salary for work to get a WP is about 50,000b for most countries (although not all). While a Govt employee can be qualified lower, I wasn't clear that someone at a language school like Siam Computer could as that is a private company; and according to numerous websites, these types of firms will accept illegal degrees/qualifications from Khao San Rd, and allow work without a work permit...hence all the visa runners services; even www.ajarn.com directly references the visa runner phenemona as a direct result of not holding a work permit and being on a tourist visa. And anyway, a ton of teachers are doing private tuition on the side; since their work permit allows them to work for their employer, not as a private contractor, the ones I know doing this would also be illegally working, even if they had a work permit, which they do not.

Australia has 50,000+ overstayers. There are a LOT of westerners here; on Phuket, Pattaya, Bangkok. I think it would be a solid guess that there are perhaps more 10% of that number of westerners based here, doing industry of some sort, not following their work permit to the letter or not having one at all.

I'm willing to change my mind, if you have some data to show otherwise

Edited February 16, 2006 by steveromagnino

[Maestro]

It has also occurred to me that on my "visa runs", I was not given a 30 day visa. After 2 or 3 visa runs, I learnt & I was told, that there is no rhyme or reason for this strange occurrance. I've since learnt never to expect a 30 day renewal...even if I arrive at the border on the day of my visa expiry. So, to all you control freak, red neck "the law is the law" types, how is a tourist gunna deal with this?

Indeed, how is a tourist to deal with this!? I cannot speak for other tourists but this is what I do: I open my passport, among the multitude of other stamps already there I search for that last entry stamp I just got (Immigration used to staple the departure card on the page in question but with the new, larger card they did not do so last time), and I read the “admitted until...” date on that stamp. A tedious exercise, admittedly (the stamps are not in chronological order), which takes up nigh half of my 30-day vacation in Thailand, which is anyway only 28 full days if I disregard the days of arrival and departure . I can count myself fortunate, though, in that I was taught to read

A rhyme to the calculation of the expiration date, there is not, but a reason, there is. We are prone to think of 30 days as a month, but in Thailand the permitted period to stay is calculated exactly as 30 days, including the days of arrival and departure. I have no quarrel with this, and some other countries may well be calculating the same way. But now, writing about this, I am wondering how an immigration official has her desk organised, how many date stamps she has there, and in what order she lines them up:

-- There come you or I without a visa, for example today, on 16 Feb, 2006, and get 30 days on arrival. That’s stamp No. 1, with the date of 17 MAR 2006 (Hey, look, that’s even over one month!)

-- Next in line is, for example, an Indian. He didn’t get a visa before he left, bought a visa on arrival, and he gets 15 days. That’s stamp No. 2, with the date of 02 MAR 2006.

-- Next is an Australian with a tourist visa, who gets 60 days: stamp No. 3, with the date of 16 APR 2006.

-- Now comes a person with a non-immigrant O visa and gets 90 days: stamp No. 4, with the date 16 MAY 2006.

-- Next is a person with a pre-approved non-immigrant O visa for the purpose of retirement. He gets one year: stamp No. 5, with the date of 15 FEB 2006.

-- Finally, here come all those with re-entry permits, each one requiring a different date based on the expiration date of his/her current annual extension of stay: stamp No. 6, whose date the official needs to adjust as required.

Elkangorito, are you beginning to have sympathy with the poor immigration official?

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Maestro

[Sunny Valentine]

Sunny, to tidy up this debate a bit I havent repeated the very lengthy posts.

You initially quoted a British guy who came to your bar who had (or was going to) overstayed his visa by about a week. You then made an arguement (his or yours was a little unclear) that people "don't bother to look at stamps in their passport or who like to spend quality time in their holidays, without discussing matters like visa classes, permission to stay versus visa validity periods" I stated that people like this end up in Immigration detention centres. I stick with this.

How about some evidence on that? Statistics, trip reports, press, let's see some facts.

Until then I stick with what i have said before.

Your post seems to wander between discussion on tourist overstayers and people with long term resident type visas like yourself. You proudly state that you have always kept your papers in order, but suggest a tourist with the basic one month stay can't be expected to keep track of this simple concept because "specific regulations in 157 different countries that keep constantly changing, are often either not enforced, or ignored by the governments"

You then suggest that "This is a very natural and normal behaviour, I guess the majority of tourists here do it the same way." Your authority for this astounding statistic is your ownership of a bar in Pattaya where you "Usually speak with lots of foreign tourist and travellers."

Ok, based on what kind of evidence would you question me, then?

"I believe the majority of countries that allow EU citizens a visit without a Visa, they allow them up to 3 month stay. (BAsed on personal experience this includes Malaysia, Turkey, South Africa, Mauritius, Mexico, and the states in the carribian I visited" This sentence doesn't really have an ending, but I assume you were suggesting Thailand should be the same.

Sorry for bad grammar, but english is not my mother tongue.

Apart from that, yes, I wouldn't mind. But I agree it ain't me (or we foreigners) that decide. So this discussion is obsolete.

I tend to agree, but without the racist undertones that it should only apply to the "god given" EU citizens.

Ok, I based this upon me as well as lots of people I am in contact here are EU citizens. But of course you're right. Wouldn't assume racism though.

My main point (and I guess I did not make this clear) was that EU citizens are (based on whatever the reason is) used to either getting a Visa beforehand, or travel freely with no worries about 4 weeks, or six weeks, or whatever a normal or slightly extended holiday takes.

I come from Austria. We have minimum 5 weeks paid holiday per year, most people have 6 or more weeks. Plus lots of people get extra holiday in exchange for overtime work. So a worker going for a 5 to 8 week holiday is definitely not the norm, but also not unheard of. Lots of people I know do this at least once every few years.

However, until this happens the 1 month concept will have to continue to be wrestled with by the intellectually challenged from Europe.

Well, tit for that, I made an attempt, you fought back, fair enough.

"Stupid maybe. But a very natural one, except for those like you who get intellectually or otherwise arroused by legal matters." A lame attempt to insult me. You should speak to others on the forum they do much better.

Well, let's take the insult out the phrase, what's left in my argumentation I see as still valid:

Lots of people here don't want to be bothered with these complicated rules. They want to enjoy their holiday. Full stop.

Sunny

[steveromagnino]

Well, let's take the insult out the phrase, what's left in my argumentation I see as still valid:

Lots of people here don't want to be bothered with these complicated rules. They want to enjoy their holiday. Full stop.

Sunny

True. But this is not rocket science.

Arrive.

Have 30 day visa on arrival. Plan travel to leave within 30 days, or get a longer visa before you leave.

Leave within visa time. If unsure, check stamp.

Repeat as required.

I agree the writing could be perhaps a fraction neater, but at the end of the day, it is like what 20 seconds out of your life to check that 30 days is indeed 30 days, and that is that me ol' china.

[Maestro]

I was pretty sure I had read it somewhere:

Despite all the discomfort, he said he would continue his vacation in Thail and by making new reservations for a flight to Chiang Mai, as his original tickets had expired and were non-refundable.

--Phuket Gazette 2006-02-14

What memory you’ve got, Noel! I saw the follow-up on 10 Feb., but not that later one. Good on you!

This explains why he wanted to get his permission to stay sorted out before checking in for his domestic flight. Rather silly of him not to have gone for his border run, or made is enquiries at Immigration, a day earlier, but I guess we’ll never get to know the story. The reporter missed an opportunity there.

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Maestro

[elkangorito]

This is completely ridiculous!!!!

The 'control freaks' simply repeat the same tired old story, over & over again..."the law is the law", whilst the "thinkers" present arguments.

All that the 'control freaks' ASSUME is that everybody must instantly know Thai immigration rules & regs. THIS IS NOT THE CASE FOR THE AVERAGE TOURIST WHO HAS NO DESIRE TO STAY HERE LONG TERM. You people are simply being unreasonable perfectionists...& lazy basta*ds at that.

So come on, you lazy 'control freak' buggers. How about answering this question; how can an overstaying person directly affect your life? Why are you so upset about this? Be realistic with your answer otherwise you will come unstuck.

[Maestro]

Again, the situation WILL NOT be resolved until "the law(s)" are no longer ambiguous (which they currently are).

I'm sick of hearing control freaks recite that "the law is the law".

”This is the law” was necessary to explain why the overstaying tourists, after having been arrested, had to be deported. The Phuket Gazette reported they were expelled, not deported, but I wonder if the reporter got it right, and for the tourists it made no difference anyway. The Ranong judge had no other option but to order deportation; the law gave him no other possibility.

To explain how to avoid an overstay, it is better to say “this is the stamp in your passport”. It is not necessary for the tourist to know and to read the law, and whether that law is ambiguous or not does not enter into the discussion.

If you say that deportation is a harsh punishment, I agree with you. If you say that in the case of those 12 tourists deportation made no sense, I agree with you. These tourists represented exactly the same threat, or lack of threat, to Thailand whether they made their border run in good time or a few days late. Even if the judge had wanted to impose a lighter punishment, for example just a fine, he could not. “This is the law”.

So what’s the solution? Should the law be changed? Of course, it should! You said it first. Every country, not only Thailand, has clauses in some laws that are unreasonable, some even outright wrong, and need to be changed. Unfortunately, it often takes a long time until somebody in authority takes the initiative to call for that change, and then it takes another long time until the change is actually made. According to the reports in the Phuket Gazette, the provincial governor has voiced his criticism about that deportation requirement and hopefully he will follow up on it. The democratic process to change a law is simple. Foreign ambassadors could also make a suggestion to their counterpart in the Thai government.

And now for a good laugh: do you remember that part where the police said they stopped the bus and checked its occupants because of a suspicion that some border runners bring illegal drugs back from Burma? The police couldn’t even make up a credible excuse! If that had been the reason, they would have had to search the bus on its way back. There has been speculation in this thread about the police’s real motives, but I guess that’s another story of which we shall never learn the truth.

---------------

Maestro

[Old Croc]

Sunny, to tidy up this debate a bit I havent repeated the very lengthy posts.

You initially quoted a British guy who came to your bar who had (or was going to) overstayed his visa by about a week. You then made an arguement (his or yours was a little unclear) that people "don't bother to look at stamps in their passport or who like to spend quality time in their holidays, without discussing matters like visa classes, permission to stay versus visa validity periods" I stated that people like this end up in Immigration detention centres. I stick with this.

How about some evidence on that? Statistics, trip reports, press, let's see some facts.

Until then I stick with what i have said before.

Sunny, my evidence would start with the 12 people who landed in a detention centre and caused this thread to come into existance.

Your post seems to wander between discussion on tourist overstayers and people with long term resident type visas like yourself. You proudly state that you have always kept your papers in order, but suggest a tourist with the basic one month stay can't be expected to keep track of this simple concept because "specific regulations in 157 different countries that keep constantly changing, are often either not enforced, or ignored by the governments"

You then suggest that "This is a very natural and normal behaviour, I guess the majority of tourists here do it the same way." Your authority for this astounding statistic is your ownership of a bar in Pattaya where you "Usually speak with lots of foreign tourist and travellers."

Ok, based on what kind of evidence would you question me, then?

Thailand has about 10 million visitors a year who average a stay of 8 days each. I really think your bar side statistical argument that most overstay could not stand up to anything other than ridicule.

"I believe the majority of countries that allow EU citizens a visit without a Visa, they allow them up to 3 month stay. (BAsed on personal experience this includes Malaysia, Turkey, South Africa, Mauritius, Mexico, and the states in the carribian I visited" This sentence doesn't really have an ending, but I assume you were suggesting Thailand should be the same.

Sorry for bad grammar, but english is not my mother tongue. I accepted that and made an assumption as to what you were getting at and agreed with you

Apart from that, yes, I wouldn't mind. But I agree it ain't me (or we foreigners) that decide. So this discussion is obsolete. Thailand has decided that visa free entry for tourists is only for 1 month.

I tend to agree, but without the racist undertones that it should only apply to the "god given" EU citizens.

Ok, I based this upon me as well as lots of people I am in contact here are EU citizens. But of course you're right. Wouldn't assume racism though.

My main point (and I guess I did not make this clear) was that EU citizens are (based on whatever the reason is) used to either getting a Visa beforehand, or travel freely with no worries about 4 weeks, or six weeks, or whatever a normal or slightly extended holiday takes.

I come from Austria. We have minimum 5 weeks paid holiday per year, most people have 6 or more weeks. Plus lots of people get extra holiday in exchange for overtime work. So a worker going for a 5 to 8 week holiday is definitely not the norm, but also not unheard of. Lots of people I know do this at least once every few years. Thailand has decided that visa free entry for tourists is only for 1 month. I believe you can get a longer stay by applying for a visa at an embassy before travelling. Those planning to stay longer should take this route.

However, until this happens the 1 month concept will have to continue to be wrestled with by the intellectually challenged from Europe.

Well, tit for that, I made an attempt, you fought back, fair enough.

"Stupid maybe. But a very natural one, except for those like you who get intellectually or otherwise arroused by legal matters." A lame attempt to insult me. You should speak to others on the forum they do much better.

Well, let's take the insult out the phrase, what's left in my argumentation I see as still valid:

Lots of people here don't want to be bothered with these complicated rules. They want to enjoy their holiday. Full stop. Whether you agree or not with various countries immigration rules the only way to avoid the possibility of the kind of problems the visa bus 12 encountered is to comply with the rules.

Sunny

[Old Croc]

For those people who have trouble understanding how long they are allowed to stay in Thailand I have reproduced a couple of entry and departure stamps here. The rectangular stamps are arrivals.

I estimate it would take about 3 - 7 seconds of your quality tourist time to work out the day your stay expires.

[penzman]

Who tipped off the tourist police that the company was assisting illegal aliens into Burma. Could it be one of the other "visa run" companies?? I have done one organised visa run before deciding not to put my life in the hands of some he11 bent speed freak.The first thing they made clear was that they would not accept overstays on board because of the hold ups at immigration. Maybe some companies are a bit pizzed off with the hold ups this company are creating with overstayers and decided to put an end to it themselves. Just a thought.

How about the bus driver? Regular route, get to know a few cops , receives a percentage of bribes paid by visa runners... until the sh*t hit the fan like happened this time.

[Maestro]

...I have reproduced a couple of entry and departure stamps here...

Nicely chopped stamps, clearly legible, none of the signatures rendering any of the dates illegible. All 64 Thai entry stamps in my passports also have legible dates.

What I still haven’t seen yet is that stamp mentioned by Elkangorito, with the illegible hand-written date. Elkangorito, it’s not that I don’t believe you; I do believe you. But I really would like to see that stamp, for my personal edification, and for future generations to refer to when someone – what do you call them? Control freaks – comes and says the date on the arrival stamp is always clearly legible. Please, Elkangorito, I beg you, post a picture of that stamp here, so that it may go into history!

--------------

Maestro

[sua yai]

I was down in Ranong yesterday and used my usual taxi/boat service. Was asking him about this incident. (I'm pretty sure that he's either worked at imm there before or, at the very least is well connected.

His view was that it was nothing to do with imm. Just regular and tourist police looking for money. He was not amused about the situation, but didn't really want to talk that much with me about it.

Just a local's point of view - although bear in mind that he has a vested interest in as many visa runners using his services as possible.

[bluebear]

This is completely ridiculous!!!!

The 'control freaks' simply repeat the same tired old story, over & over again..."the law is the law", whilst the "thinkers" present arguments.

All that the 'control freaks' ASSUME is that everybody must instantly know Thai immigration rules & regs. THIS IS NOT THE CASE FOR THE AVERAGE TOURIST WHO HAS NO DESIRE TO STAY HERE LONG TERM. You people are simply being unreasonable perfectionists...& lazy basta*ds at that.

So come on, you lazy 'control freak' buggers. How about answering this question; how can an overstaying person directly affect your life? Why are you so upset about this? Be realistic with your answer otherwise you will come unstuck.

You truly are an idiot. How can someone saying "obey the law" be a control freak?

All of my holidays, my families holidays and my friends holidays have all involved one thing. Checking to see if we need a visa to go to the country in question.

Where people get upset is when people like you calmly say they are not law breakers, dont worry, ignore the law.......... I bet the first time somone rips you off you will say "there ought to be a law against this, why dont the police do something.

THE FACTS ARE CLEAR. By overstaying your Visa you are breaking immigration law therefore you are a law breaker.

To sunny v

IT IS NOT a question of "keeping up to date with 157 countries" ( or whatever the exact quote was.) It is a matter of looking or asking the travel agent "how long can I stay, how long is my visa valid for" or heaven help us, checking the stamp immediately after immigration FOR THE ONE country you are going to!!!!.

Edited February 17, 2006 by bluebear

[Noel]

It has also occurred to me that on my "visa runs", I was not given a 30 day visa. After 2 or 3 visa runs, I learnt & I was told, that there is no rhyme or reason for this strange occurrance. I've since learnt never to expect a 30 day renewal...even if I arrive at the border on the day of my visa expiry. So, to all you control freak, red neck "the law is the law" types, how is a tourist gunna deal with this?

I am not in the least surprised that you were not given a 30 day visa as there is no such thing.

Are you referring to the 30 day Tourist Visa Exemption that the citizens of certain countries are afforded? As you were not given a "30 day visa", are you therefore telling us you were refused entry into the Kingdom?

If that is not the case, on what basis were you allowed entry?

Perhaps you are alluding to an actual ‘Visa on Arrival’ that can be available to the citizens of some less than twenty specified countries to which the 30 day permission to stay is unavailable. If so, then as far as I am aware the maximum stay allowed is 15 days.

Regardless, you have been well advised never to expect a 30 day ‘renewal’ at a border, because a visa can never be renewed.

Having suffered reading your many posts (peppered with insults) that do little more than demonstrate your inability to grasp the simplest of concepts, my best advice and answer to your above question is that the next time you visit LOS you should ensure that you are accompanied by an adult.

[Thai Chi]

For those people who have trouble understanding how long they are allowed to stay in Thailand I have reproduced a couple of entry and departure stamps here. The rectangular stamps are arrivals.

I estimate it would take about 3 - 7 seconds of your quality tourist time to work out the day your stay expires.

Old Croc, you show yours and I'll show mine Well I would if I had a scanner.

I just had a quick look through my current passport. Some of my pages are a little bit messier than yours. But I can still clearly read every entry / departure stamp to Thailand, Australia, Singapore and Brunei. Even my overstay stamps are legible (yep, even control freaks overstay)

I (like mastero) would also like have a look see at elkangoritos offendind and confusing stamp

[Sunny Valentine]

This is completely ridiculous!!!!

To sunny v

IT IS NOT a question of "keeping up to date with 157 countries" ( or whatever the exact quote was.) It is a matter of looking or asking the travel agent "how long can I stay, how long is my visa valid for" or heaven help us, checking the stamp immediately after immigration FOR THE ONE country you are going to!!!!.

The problem is more often than not quality of information!

Remember the posts in this thread that some guys asked immigration what to do, and were told to just overstay and pay fine? Happened also to me, even before my time was up!

Remember the (think it was fench) embassy#s website stating that overstay can be done away with paying the fine. Made headlines here some one or two years ago.

Also from my very own experience, from the year 1999:

Planned a two week holiday in The Gambia, Western Africa.

There was a weekly charter flight from Vienna and Munich at that time, but it was full for my planned vacation period. So my travel agent (and I knew her for some time already) found a reasonable priced regular flight via Zurich and Dakar for us. She double checked with the wholesale agent who sold her the hotel, and they confirmed that a Visa for The Gambia can be had at the airport on arrival. Later (but gladly not too late) I found out that the Visa on arrival is only available for passengers from these charter flights, not for regular flights out of neighboring african countries. So I had to get the Visas just a few days before departure, or (as I found out later by asking the airline ground staff in Zurich) we would have been denied to board our flights from Zurich.

Sunny

[thaipro_pattaya]

These people have a total, absolute disregard for the laws of Thailand. They bring real law abiding visitors into disrespect. They should all have been deported.

For those people who have trouble understanding how long they are allowed to stay in Thailand I have reproduced a couple of entry and departure stamps here. The rectangular stamps are arrivals.

I estimate it would take about 3 - 7 seconds of your quality tourist time to work out the day your stay expires.

Constantly getting 30 day VoA abuses their purpose. Get a real visa. How hard is that? Edited February 17, 2006 by thaipro_pattaya

[elkangorito]

I've overstayed 3 times;

1) The first time I was obviously a total dumbarse. I went to the Thai Consulate in Sydney & was issued with a three month (90 day) tourist visa. At no time did the Thai consulate representative inform me that this visa would not be valid for the 90 day period upon entering Thailand. Why should I ask? He told me that it was a 90 day tourist visa! Consequently, I did a "human" thing & assumed an expiry date. After travelling for 12 hours, I was not compus mentus enough to think that I should actually check the stamped expiry date. Also, upon entry to Thailand, no Thai official actually advised me of the discrepency between my Australian purchased 90 day visa & the actual Thailand 60 day entry visa. At this stage, I didn't know much about Thailand.

2) The 2nd time was the unintelligible stamp/writing thing. Sorry, don't have scanner.

3) On this occassion, I was in the process of changing from a tourist visa to a "non B", courtesy of my school. I advised my school of my possible overstay with regard to the "change over" period from one visa to another (public holidays, transport time etc). I was told by my school that they would pay the overstay & all would be well. Also, the Director of the school said that I would not be in trouble as he was "well connected".

Forgive me for being human.

[Noel]

I've overstayed 3 times;

Forgive me for being human.

YOUR APPLICATION FOR HUMAN STATUS RECOGNITION IS UNDER CONSIDERATION.

PLEASE DO NOT HOLD YOUR BREATH IN ANTICIPATION OF SUCCESS.

REJECTION OFTEN OFFENDS AND IS NECK-SENSITIVE, COLOURWISE, SO BE PREPARED FOR BAD NEWS.

HAVE A NICE (NOT OVER) STAY.

CONTROL FREAKS @ IMMIGRATION

We serve to aim at lawbreakers.

Apologies for lack of Date Stamp. We were unable to make it illegible, so it has been deleted.

[opothai]

consistency is the name of the game, but TIT

always asume the worse case scenario as it CAN happen.

i've overstayed on plenty of occasions and been very lucky it seems, only had to pay at the air port.

i've been a member here for a while now and never again will i overstay, simply because of what i read here. good on thai visa.

if i were not a member i should hazzard a guess that an overstay would not bother me.

the question is how well informed were these chaps and had they just paid at the airport before.

and for the amount of time they overstayed i think for a country that does have a large number of tourists imo the authorities definately over reacted and this can only damage the industry,[ not by much ]

but added to all the other hickups that seem to occur, well add them together and it does not paint a great picture at this present time.

personally on the information provided i feel for these chaps in the manner of thier treatment.

thailand needs consistency

[steveromagnino]

consistency is the name of the game, but TIT

always asume the worse case scenario as it CAN happen.

i've overstayed on plenty of occasions and been very lucky it seems, only had to pay at the air port.

thailand needs consistency

This is New Zealand.

I've sped many times. I've driven with a few drinks on plenty of occasions (well a few) and been very lucky it seems.

The whole point... chances of getting caught = less than 100%...but will you take the risK?

[zzap]

These people have a total, absolute disregard for the laws of Thailand. They bring real law abiding visitors into disrespect. They should all have been deported.

We got pass that silly argument pages ago.

For those people who have trouble understanding how long they are allowed to stay in Thailand I have reproduced a couple of entry and departure stamps here. The rectangular stamps are arrivals.

I estimate it would take about 3 - 7 seconds of your quality tourist time to work out the day your stay expires.

Constantly getting 30 day VoA abuses their purpose. Get a real visa. How hard is that?

Put your glasses on and have a look at the stamps, before you spout off.

[Maestro]

consistency is the name of the game, but TIT

i've overstayed on plenty of occasions and been very lucky it seems, only had to pay at the air port.

...

thailand needs consistency

In other words, Opothai, you are lamenting the fact that when you presented yourself with an overstay at Immigration upon leaving Thailand you were not arrested, detained and deported, since deportation is the only penalty for this offence provided by the Immigration Act. Masochist!

There is consistency!

1. Those who get caught by the police with an overstay fall into two categories:

a. those who reach an amicable agreement with the police in order not to be arrested;

b. the others who get arrested, brought before a judge, and deported.

2. Those who succeed in not getting caught by the police are fined upon leaving the country, apparently based on a directive of the Director General of the Police (DGP) (there was another post mentioning such directive). Such directive can be cancelled or changed at any time by just one person, the DGP.

Consistency is if everybody in the same situation is treated the same way. Or do you say that it is inconsistent that some motorists running a red light get caught and others do not get caught? Think again! How many policemen would you need to catch every motorist committing a traffic offence everywhere in the country? How many policemen to catch every overstaying foreigner? Would you like it if every policeman who sees you asked you to show your passport? In Bangkok, that would be about every 200 metres on average.

--------------

Maestro

Edited February 20, 2006 by maestro

[elkangorito]

It looks like the blood lusting control freaks are a majority (sadly). It's a sad statement for humanity.

Nonetheless, I'll try to be a "perfect" human & therefore join the ranks of the control freaks...NOT!!!!!

You people are narrow minded, unforgiving & generally intolerant. I expect racist remarks very soon from some of you. Thank god I'm not one of your kids. You lazy beggars are just unbelievable. Personal responsibility is something one gains from NOT following the law but from constantly questioning the reality of an issue. Since all of you "good doers" rely upon the law to make your decisions for you, you therefore have NO personal responsibility. It's so easy to quote laws. It's so easy to be a perfect citizen if you CAN follow the law. I do not know one human yet who has been so perfect as to have not coc*ed up with regard to the law.

By the way, none of you will convince me that you are "clean". On your deathbed, if it can be proven, if you have a totally "clean" slate, I'll kiss my bum to the moon & back if you haven't broken a "LAW". But don't forget, this only applies after you die. There is no such thing as a "perfectly law abiding" living human.