Sometimes you have to admire the peoples out look on life and death. Wife came in from eating at the cousins house. Tells FIL his Uncle is dying, I say shouldn't we take him to hospital . No he has cancer and is going to die tonight So FIL has to go say goodbye. Tomorrow a 3 day party will start as he is old and respected and on his way to a better life. All will be happy that he had a good long life, none will be sad, as he his off to a better place.

Hope I am as happy to go, as the Issan people when my time comes. Jim

Agree they see things in a different light to us, enjoy the party!! one has just finished a few days ago at the end of our soi, the death was not so peaceful the man hung himself, very sad indeed.

James

In the UK i have only seen my father die (I am 65 in march) . He died in extreme pain from cancer , spread from his stomach to his liver.

Over the 25 years i have spent on-and-off in in Isaan I have seen considerably more deaths but have never seen anyone suffer as my father did.

Many of these deaths were from cancer. I had a theory that they actually starve to death because they dont eat but take a little water. Thais say no they are ready to die and pass away as in meditation. Not sure myself but I wish my father had died this way, not with a black box of painkillers that appeared to have no effect.

Regards

Mike Hill

James

In the UK i have only seen my father die (I am 65 in march) . He died in extreme pain from cancer , spread from his stomach to his liver.

Over the 25 years i have spent on-and-off in in Isaan I have seen considerably more deaths but have never seen anyone suffer as my father did.

Many of these deaths were from cancer. I had a theory that they actually starve to death because they dont eat but take a little water. Thais say no they are ready to die and pass away as in meditation. Not sure myself but I wish my father had died this way, not with a black box of painkillers that appeared to have no effect.

Regards

Mike Hill

You may very well be right, my father thankfully dropped died on the spot. Seen friends die long slow deaths in hospitals in the west. Yet here if you don't die from motorbikes, gun shots or trees falling on you, they seem to grow old then pass on peacefully.

Most will stay in their huts, sleeping on a board rather than go to a hospital. They have seen doctors, but except their fate and strange enough they seem to know when it is time to say goodbye and just lay down and leave. Jim

James

In the UK i have only seen my father die (I am 65 in march) . He died in extreme pain from cancer , spread from his stomach to his liver.

Over the 25 years i have spent on-and-off in in Isaan I have seen considerably more deaths but have never seen anyone suffer as my father did.

Many of these deaths were from cancer. I had a theory that they actually starve to death because they dont eat but take a little water. Thais say no they are ready to die and pass away as in meditation. Not sure myself but I wish my father had died this way, not with a black box of painkillers that appeared to have no effect.

Regards

Mike Hill

Mike, just like to say that I agree with everything you say - well put. It was my mother who suffered terribly back in 1970; I watched her slowly lose her mind with the effects of the drugs, and she was still in great, cry out loud, pain.

I too have seen many relatives on my wife's side come home to die in the village and, like you, I can't explain it, but I wholeheartedly agree with the method. My wife understands that, if I am in a similar state when the time approaches, just let me come home to be with her and the family, not stuck in a hospital.

Elwood

I agree. However I am not sure how we will react when you actually find yourself there. My ex wife's father was a doctor and always said that he wanted to die at home. He rang the hospital one night and went there to end his days.

My father is dying in the US. I have posted pictures and newspaper articles about him here. He is 95, a veteran of the Great Depression, WWII including Normandy and much else. He is a better man than I will ever be, and has a Purple Heart for being wounded in WWII and a Bronze Star for bravery.

Until 2 days ago he was able to still live at home, walk without a cane and generally enjoy life. Then 2 days in a hospital where very good doctors said his heart is failing and he is too weak. Yesterday they moved him to a nursing home to die. I am so thankful that he isn't in pain. He's just too weak to walk or care for himself.

Why do they lie to people? He has been told that the nursing home is just until he gets better, and strong enough to go home. He believes that, but everyone else knows he is dying. I won't tell him different because everyone from family to medical staff has already told him this story and I would be the bad guy to him and everyone. Why cling to life after almost 96 years, a failing body, and bedridden? Why are they giving him medicines to help and prolong his failed heart? Why not say goodbye to him and let him peacefully slip away?

I am not only the eldest, but I am the one the family looks to. I have long ago been legally appointed the one to manage the estate and affairs. I could step in and stop this, but in our culture I would be the bad guy.

So now every day we go and play the charade for him. We don't say the truth or say goodbye to him. We wait for him to pass without him knowing or expecting. Everything is so mentally sanitized for everyone. Yet we grieve but put on a false face for him. We prolong the inevitable with medications.

Here is one place where the Thai way is better. Accept it as natural and let it happen. Our way is unnatural.

Thank you for a wonderful 95+ years, Dad.

Why are they giving him medicines to help and prolong his failed heart?

Here is one place where the Thai way is better. Accept it as natural and let it happen. Our way is unnatural.

Agree with you 110%.

Its all about money, these places are nothing more than money making machines, the longer they can keep you (artificially) alive the more the coin keeps rolling in.

BTW, the same thing happens in Thailand, my FIL died of a snakebite, he was basically kept alive on a ventilator, the BIL told the hospital, no more the family are taking their father home to die.

I have told my wife if anything similair happens to me, either tell the hospital to pull the plug or bring me home.

Maybe you're right - all about money. But don't forget that it is the others in the family that want this. They want to keep him here as long as possible. I, or we, could order it stopped. The VA (US military) is paying for all of this. He has been under their wing since wounded in Europe in WWII in the 1940's. His classification for that is a 2 out of 6 on the priority list due to all of the circumstances surrounding his battle wounds. He also receives a very nice pension (I think about $1,600 US per month VA in addition to his social security and his vet's medical, dental, eyeglass and hearing 100% covered.

He has lived well after the Great Depression and the war.

It is the family asking for the treatments. It is the culture.

I am pretty sure that Thai's, with means, do everything humanly and ??? possible to stay here as loooong as possible.

Two years ago it cost about $100,000 US to keep my mom alive for the last two weeks. In all fairness, for the first 12 days they really thought they could save her. And in fairness, for the last three days they knew she was dying and withheld care with our agreement.

Still, she was 93, had been married to Dad for 68 years, had a good life, and worse, she had been bedridden for 7 months with a broken back from a fall. She was in agony for 7 months. Everyone knew she was too old for her back to heal, and she was helpless, bedridden and in constant severe pain.

At some point I hope I know I'm finished with any quality of life and pull the plugs myself, or order them pulled if I can't.

Why do they lie to people? He has been told that the nursing home is just until he gets better, and strong enough to go home. He believes that, but everyone else knows he is dying. I won't tell him different because everyone from family to medical staff has already told him this story and I would be the bad guy to him and everyone. Why cling to life after almost 96 years, a failing body, and bedridden? Why are they giving him medicines to help and prolong his failed heart? Why not say goodbye to him and let him peacefully slip away?

Do you honestly think the gentleman is clueless? He knows. However, if he is as you described him, he is probably participating in the "charade" for 2 good reasons;

1. He is not ready to die, and when he's ready he will go on his terms. No matter how grim they may seem, he's making the decision. Someone that has experienced all that he has, doesn't throw in the towel. When you've beat the odds as he's done, you aren't ready to give up and you fight until you've decided you don't feel like fighting any longer.

2. He's trying to spare people the emotional pain associated with the end days. Folks like like him don't want to be a burden to anyone. I can guarantee you that his view is that if he does it this way, people won't be upset. This is how the heros of that generation think and I've seen it with so many of them. They think of others in their own way.

His generation are tough. When you lived through the war and seen real suffering, you remember it and try to spare others from the pain. My great uncle fought all the way until the end. He was a physician that served in the Pacific campaign of WWII. He knew he was dying, but he put on a brave front. He wouldn't discuss his looming death with the family and I respected him for that. I thought it was the logical thing to do. I hope I can be as brave as he was when my time comes.

My personal experience with Thais is that they give up too easily. I've seen it with patients undergoing chemo. They just don't have the fighting spirit one sees with other cultures. Many Thais accept that they might have another life. Some western cultures say you go to heaven and live there so people have a fatalistic approach, and then there are the cultures that say, screw it, I'm going to maximize whatever time I got left.

A few days ago the wife's uncle was killed in a car accident. Because it was an accident and he couldn't know it was coming, they have to bury him for 3 years before they can hold the usual ceremonies. Villagers didn't want him buried on the farm because it was too close to the village. Noone in the village will go out at night for a week for fear his ghost will approach them, her uncle not knowing he is dead.

He was a very nice guy. RIP.

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A few days ago the wife's uncle was killed in a car accident. Because it was an accident and he couldn't know it was coming, they have to bury him for 3 years before they can hold the usual ceremonies. Villagers didn't want him buried on the farm because it was too close to the village. Noone in the village will go out at night for a week for fear his ghost will approach them, her uncle not knowing he is dead.

He was a very nice guy. RIP.

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Yep, went to one of those parties earlier this year. They dug the guy up on the second day, brought him to the house for the party, burnt him the next day. Don't know if it is a Thai thing or just rural Issan, lao thing. Jim

Jim

Just spoke to my wife about this. She's 54 years old. We live in Roi Et but across the river from Surin and down the road from Si Sa Ket provinces. I have never seen anybody buried and neither has she, even the numerous persons who have died in accidents. I don't think that this can be an Isaan custom. Maybe Cambodia???

Jim

Just spoke to my wife about this. She's 54 years old. We live in Roi Et but across the river from Surin and down the road from Si Sa Ket provinces. I have never seen anybody buried and neither has she, even the numerous persons who have died in accidents. I don't think that this can be an Isaan custom. Maybe Cambodia???

No we are a Lao specking area, so not a Cambodian thing and it may will be a local tradition. There were no roads out here, only dirt tracks 10 years ago. Even the people speak an old form of Lao not used in the bigger places in Lao. A land that time and for my part common sense forgot. Jim

Do you honestly think the gentleman is clueless? He knows. However, if he is as you described him, he is probably participating in the "charade" for 2 good reasons;

1. He is not ready to die, and when he's ready he will go on his terms. No matter how grim they may seem, he's making the decision. Someone that has experienced all that he has, doesn't throw in the towel. When you've beat the odds as he's done, you aren't ready to give up and you fight until you've decided you don't feel like fighting any longer.

Yes of course he is a fighter, but yes he is clueless. First, his mind isn't all it used to be and second, he is being lied to and third, he has been hospitalized several times in the past two years and each time they "fixed" him. Sometimes modern medicine can do wonderful things, but sometimes a body is just worn out. At a point, other organs begin shutting down such as liver, kidney, etc. and the cause of death is really old age, but listed as heart failure. Imagine that. The heart stops.

He is in a nursing home - the type with medical care. He has been prescribed Hospice, and that can't be paid for by insurance unless the Dr's believe he has fewer than 6 months to live. That really probably means a week or two or days. He doesn't know or understand that. Hospice is for giving emotional support to him and family any time, 24/7.

He is now like a child. He knows everyone, can talk fine, but waits for everyone else to make all decisions for him. He is too weak.

This is a man who was born in poverty in rural US in 1917, entered the Great Depression at age 12, lied about his age and joined the Army at age 14 so he could get enough to eat, did 4 years and then rode boxcars 3,000 miles from Florida to California to find work which he did in a hot dog stand. He is Saving Private Ryan and The Grapes of Wrath in one package. He survived Normandy but was wounded in Belgium just before the Battle of The Bulge.

I agree he would fight. I don't believe he knows.

A few days ago the wife's uncle was killed in a car accident. Because it was an accident and he couldn't know it was coming, they have to bury him for 3 years before they can hold the usual ceremonies. Villagers didn't want him buried on the farm because it was too close to the village. Noone in the village will go out at night for a week for fear his ghost will approach them, her uncle not knowing he is dead.

He was a very nice guy. RIP.

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Same thing happens up my way in Khemmarat. Death caused by Car Accident's are buried in a local forest and not burnt for a few years.

Do you honestly think the gentleman is clueless? He knows. However, if he is as you described him, he is probably participating in the "charade" for 2 good reasons;

1. He is not ready to die, and when he's ready he will go on his terms. No matter how grim they may seem, he's making the decision. Someone that has experienced all that he has, doesn't throw in the towel. When you've beat the odds as he's done, you aren't ready to give up and you fight until you've decided you don't feel like fighting any longer.

Yes of course he is a fighter, but yes he is clueless. First, his mind isn't all it used to be and second, he is being lied to and third, he has been hospitalized several times in the past two years and each time they "fixed" him. Sometimes modern medicine can do wonderful things, but sometimes a body is just worn out. At a point, other organs begin shutting down such as liver, kidney, etc. and the cause of death is really old age, but listed as heart failure. Imagine that. The heart stops.

He is in a nursing home - the type with medical care. He has been prescribed Hospice, and that can't be paid for by insurance unless the Dr's believe he has fewer than 6 months to live. That really probably means a week or two or days. He doesn't know or understand that. Hospice is for giving emotional support to him and family any time, 24/7.

He is now like a child. He knows everyone, can talk fine, but waits for everyone else to make all decisions for him. He is too weak.

This is a man who was born in poverty in rural US in 1917, entered the Great Depression at age 12, lied about his age and joined the Army at age 14 so he could get enough to eat, did 4 years and then rode boxcars 3,000 miles from Florida to California to find work which he did in a hot dog stand. He is Saving Private Ryan and The Grapes of Wrath in one package. He survived Normandy but was wounded in Belgium just before the Battle of The Bulge.

I agree he would fight. I don't believe he knows.

I can empathise with your predicament.

Sometimes someone has to take the bull by the horns and make a descion.

Have you ever discussed this with your father as i have with mine, I know exactly what he wants, he has already explained to the rest of the family what he wants, and that is what he will get.

For other younger family members they may not understand, others may be blinded by religion, thankfully neither myself or my father are hung on such hangups.

You are correct in what you say, other parts of the body start shutting down, I still remember to this day the smell of a cancer ward, its something that never leaves you, and I sure as heck dont want to end up in one.

The head of the family needs to step up to the plate and make a descion that respects your father and his wishes.

Jim

Just spoke to my wife about this. She's 54 years old. We live in Roi Et but across the river from Surin and down the road from Si Sa Ket provinces. I have never seen anybody buried and neither has she, even the numerous persons who have died in accidents. I don't think that this can be an Isaan custom. Maybe Cambodia???

Village is about twenty minutes from the border with Laos, near Seka.

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The old woman across the road died last year. Several months before she told everyone that she would not live to see the "big merit" at the Wat. About 3 weeks before the "merit" she did not wake up in the morning and died about a week later. In these small villages everyone has known everyone else their whole lives, birth and death is as constant as the waves on the beach. My wife would tell me stories of how when she was very young and her family was very poor, she would go over and the old woman would give her food to eat, but I never saw any signs of sadness from her in the old woman's dying. At the cremation, I did see a few teary eyes, but not many. The day was very windy, as as we were leaving my wife looked up at the smoke coming from the chimney, smiled and said "Oh, today she will travel fast!".

I can empathise with your predicament.

Sometimes someone has to take the bull by the horns and make a descion.

Have you ever discussed this with your father as i have with mine, I know exactly what he wants, he has already explained to the rest of the family what he wants, and that is what he will get.

For other younger family members they may not understand, others may be blinded by religion, thankfully neither myself or my father are hung on such hangups.

You are correct in what you say, other parts of the body start shutting down, I still remember to this day the smell of a cancer ward, its something that never leaves you, and I sure as heck dont want to end up in one.

The head of the family needs to step up to the plate and make a descion that respects your father and his wishes.

My father is still alert and well able to speak for himself. His body is failing. I saw my mother fight for her last breath at 92 even though she had been unconscious for a month! No one will tell him he is dying for reasons I said. I cannot be forever the bad guy. If he becomes unconscious, I will step in. Until then, he has a right to speak for himself. It's too bad that he speaks with incomplete knowledge of his medical condition, but I didn't tell the lies. I think this is the American way and I don't know about the rest of the West.

I have to apologise to Jim and others about no burials in Isaan. Have just spoken to my wife again. She is one of 8 children, 2 brothers died young. One from a lightening strike on their house and the other as a small boy. Both of them were buried and them dug up when the family could afford a funeral and cremation. If you live in Isaan you will regularly get invitations to "parties" for somebody who died up to 10 years ago. My wife always said that they would have the party when they could afford it. I think that in the past maybe that was why they buried people and then dug them up for the cremation. My wife tells me that this was probably 30 years ago in our area and now everyone is cremated shortly after death.

Regards Mike

Just read on facebook a friend of mine, or possibly more of an acquaintance that I had worked with for many years, died . He was a man that worked every hour that the gods sent, to make money and died never having lived. Sad and a waste of a life.

Life is short, enjoy what you have, when it's gone it's gone, if you can't do good at least do as little harm as possible. Jim

A few days ago the wife's uncle was killed in a car accident. Because it was an accident and he couldn't know it was coming, they have to bury him for 3 years before they can hold the usual ceremonies. Villagers didn't want him buried on the farm because it was too close to the village. Noone in the village will go out at night for a week for fear his ghost will approach them, her uncle not knowing he is dead.

He was a very nice guy. RIP.

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Yep, went to one of those parties earlier this year. They dug the guy up on the second day, brought him to the house for the party, burnt him the next day. Don't know if it is a Thai thing or just rural Issan, lao thing. Jim

just asked mrs scotty and she was saying that if its an accident then they bury them for a while then dig them up for the cremation.phibun /ubon area

scotty

A few days ago the wife's uncle was killed in a car accident. Because it was an accident and he couldn't know it was coming, they have to bury him for 3 years before they can hold the usual ceremonies. Villagers didn't want him buried on the farm because it was too close to the village. Noone in the village will go out at night for a week for fear his ghost will approach them, her uncle not knowing he is dead.

He was a very nice guy. RIP.

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Yep, went to one of those parties earlier this year. They dug the guy up on the second day, brought him to the house for the party, burnt him the next day. Don't know if it is a Thai thing or just rural Issan, lao thing. Jim

just asked mrs scotty and she was saying that if its an accident then they bury them for a while then dig them up for the cremation.phibun /ubon area

scotty

We are Prasat area, just about 35 km from Cambodia. The lovely wife's father was killed riding m/c about two years ago, hit head-on by a truck. He was cremated after 6 days of Merit, but his bones needed to be buried later (a year or two later), so two ceremonies. They are all Khmer around here, so no burial at all.

mario299

from 96-2000 I worked in an infectious diseases hospital in Thailand working with the staff to develop affordable care, systems and services in order to cope with the 'tsunami' of AIDS patients. There was an average of 11 AIDS deaths per day. Sadly very few people died with dignity due to the absence of friends or family related to stigma and discrimination leading to fear of being associated with an HIV + person AND the issue of medical staff failing to prescribe adequate pain management medication (alleged to be related to karma related and too much paper work involved in prescribing narcotics). Things have certainly changed for the better over the last decade in all ways regarding treatment, and I was given adequate pain relief with morphine when I had a motorcycle accident last year and broke a few bones.

My wife asks me to come along to funerals in the village as the deceased is always someone we know to a greater or lesser extent according to her - often they are the relatives of people we know. Initially I didn't want to go as I felt I didn't really know them as close friends and felt it would be an invasion of privacy. When I first did go I was approached by members of the family and thanked for my attendance as it "added to mother's or father's or relatives funeral" - what did I 'add' I asked myself? Initially I thought it was tokenism because people responded by saying how wonderful that a foreigner had attended a local villager's funeral.

Since that initial funeral I have attended quite a few - the 'cycle of life' is very evident in a village as other posts have indicated. Often I am asked, or practically 'herded' into taking some role in the funera. This includes helping to push the body around the crematorium on the trolly 7 times, sometimes being handed a large flower arrangement and being asked to lead the body pushing procession, and always being part of the throng up the steps placing the combustable talisman in the coffin to say the last goodby. Whilst my preference is not to get involved and keep a low profile - the occasions when I have been more actively involved have always been appreciated by the family who come up and hug me and say thanks for doing such a wonderful thing for their relative! It is sort of embarassing and i feel rather sheepish about it - however I have been assured from my many enquiries with my wife and family that it is a really good thing to do for the deceased and their family and the village.

Also in contrast to the uncertain deaths of AIDS patients in the late '90's, I went to be with an older uncle who was terminal - he had become semi conscious and eventuually lapsed into the uncertain breathing that commonly preceeds death. He was lying on a matress on the floor of his house. His family of all generations was there with him. The very young grand children were with him and crawling over him and hugging him. After half a day he eventualy stopped breathing. The adult women cried for a while and hugged each other a lot but only for about half an hour. A car came to take him to the Wat and then life moved on. If one could choose the way to die, this would be on the short list of good options.

Nice post, thanks for that.

Nice post, thanks for that.

Have to agree, well put and nicely written.

As to the original post by me. Guy didn't die that night, lapsed into a coma and died the next day.

lost my pick up truck for 3 days as they used it transport people and food for the party. As many were very old the 7 seat SUV was also taken at times to bring the older ones in. As said above he died with a very large family presents around. The only one that seemed to take it very hard was the sister [ My kids great grand mother ] she is the last of the family and must be 90 if she is a day. No lonely hospital, died in his home were a gather he was born, with all his extended family around, maybe 3 or 4 generations.

Liver cancer was the cause. jim