Intigrating In The Thai Buddhish Community

[connda]

I'm looking of help with concepts specifically associated with Thai Buddhism.

First, I'm Buddhist. I have been for about 30 years. One of my first "shocks" in Thailand was my concept of Thai Theravada Buddhism that I had in my own mind -- in retrospect, it was a preconceived notion without much understanding of culture and history, like monks in the Pantip Plaza handling money and buying stuff. Not quite my understanding of Vinaya, but TIT.

OK, I'm a wiser man today, but still deal with the cultural difficulties of dealing with the Thai monastic cultural institutions, especially when they come from a cultural misunderstanding that "Farang" are "Christian" and are somehow unable to fathom "Thai Buddhism" - or - it's just too difficult to communicate with us to even try. Greng Jai.

There are many very good Wats which strive to work with farangs, although only on the short term. "Come to Wat "XYZ" and go through our 28 day meditation program."

But then what happens after that 10, or 15, or 21, 28 days? "Well, thank you very much for come. GOOD LUCK FOR YOU. and goodbye." ----- Ahhhhhh, but but but wait a minute -- I live here. I want to be a part of the Thai Buddhist community. "OK, you go to Wat Pah Nanachat. Many farang monk there. GOOD LUCK FOR YOU." It seems that once your retreat is over -- you are out! Bye bye Farang. And then I wonder? Is this driven by solicitations of Dana, or is it inspired out of Buddhist compassion -- or both. And then the suggestion for Wat Pah Nanachat -- I live in Northern Thailand, not Eastern Issan.

Well first, I Iive in Lamphun province (although I keep a small apartment in a Thai community in Chiang Mai.

OK, now that I've been kicked out the door of the retreat community, where is my connection to Sangha? The Triple Gem is: Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. As we are ushered out the door of the Wat after our retreat, we are left with Buddha, Dharma, (a meditation technique depending on the Wat you attended), and "GOOD LUCK FOR YOU". What's missing here?

Sangha -- Connection to the Sangha is missing....just maybe? Maybe??? Where is the Sangha for those of us non-asian, non-thais who reside in this beautiful country?

Here is where I'd like to start a talking point, especialy from those wise enough to point in a positive direction.

There is a huge gap between Farang and Thai Buddhists. For myself, not being fluent in Thai is a huge part of the problem. And it's one I'm working on every so slowly. Heck, I read Thai, but not fast enough to follow the chants vocally, but fast enough to follow the written dialog in my mind. Maybe Thais think: "typical farang -- can't chant." But I can, and it's meditative when I do.

Is there a prejudice (as in pre-judging - not in a negative way) that Farang simply aren't or don't understand the Buddhism as practiced in most Thai Wats. Humm. There is some truth to that statement. For me, it's not so much the 'I don't understand' as it is that what I see being practiced is not necessarily Theravada Buddhism. I kind-heartedly refer to Thai Buddhism as practiced by my Thai friends and family as "Buddhist flavored Animism" which I don't believe to be too far off the mark.

In my simple practice, I try to work with Sila, Samadhi, Pana. It would be easy to write pages and pages about the differences we farang and Thai encounter, but I feel a need to work toward the middle. Basic concepts. So with that introduction, I like to ask a question and also see if anyone is open to a continuing dialog on how we foreigners can attempt to make inroad into the practice of Buddhism here in Thailand, with the Thai people.

As an analogy, I had a African American friend in North Carolina many years back. The company I worked for was pretty progressive, but we all went out for a party one time. And I remember her saying, "Well, I guess I'm the only fly in the milk." Yeah, about 15 white people and her. And in the American South at the time....It was a difficult time, but she was a dear friend. But, now here I am -- the marshmallow floating in the chocolate milk - in a country where everyone thinks that they are a darker chocolate then they really are. As if it matters at all -- because it doesn't.. Um, errr, ahh -- well, maybe unless you're white. Not Bangkok "light", but farang white. The maybe it matters. We don't fit at all.

By the way, I do attend temple in my village and in CM. But I am the marshmallow floating in the chocolate milk. It doesn't bother me much. The last time I was at temple I did a three point bow: Janali, Guanta, Appiwat/ Janali, Guanta, Appiwat / Janali, Guanta, Appiwat/ Janali, Guanta, Janali. Perfect position, toes down/heels up (and at my age with a bone spur in my right big toe, and considering the pain it's not small feat. And the women sitting next to me said, "Suay!" But how superficial. I want to be more involved. And language is a problem, although not insurmountable. It's might be my 60 mind does not wrap around new languages as say, a 20 year old mind would. But slowlly I learn.

Anyway, I'm open to "positive" conversation about this. Other farang Buddhists who have found ways to overcome the problems. I'd like to hear from you.

[Brucenkhamen]

I'm guessing you had a good connection with a local practise oriented sangha when you were in the west and that's what you're missing.

To be honest I've never expected to have that in Thailand, I've never expected to have the fellowship of like minded people which is possibly one of the reasons why I've never been willing to move here permanently.

Thailand (and SE Asia in general) is a great place to do retreats as you've pointed out, and while I've met some good Thai Buddhists I don't think any have the slightest idea what really motivates a farang to practise Buddhism. Even the retreats are very different than in the west, much less opportunity to really talk about things.

I think you should follow the Buddhas advise and be an island/lamp unto yourself, don't expect to have the support of like minded people in Thailand while still making the most of the opportunities you can.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Brucenkhamen

[Jawnie]

You said you've been Buddhist for a long time - are you a Theravada, Mahayana, or a Vajrayana practicioner? If you are either Mahayana or Vajrayana (like me) you are definitely on your own as there a a very, very few such practicioners in Bangkok, etc. If you are Theravada, Thai Buddhism is that also, but in a very strict sense. That is, no slipping in Mahayana or Vajrayana concepts such as the bodhisattva ideal or that enlightened masters other than Shakyamuni have appeared in the world, or the need for a person guru. Thai Buddhism is very individualistic in this regard.

Language is a huge problem as is culture. Thai culture is not as friendly as the "Land of Smiles" marketing slogan would indicate. Chances are you'll never integrate to the extent you wish. While, as one poster says, your must make your own way anyway, a teacher with whom you have an affinity and with whom are able to communicate is essential. That may be extremely difficult in Thailand. If you wish to stay and practice Thai Buddhism, you'll need find a temple with an English-speaking teacher.

[connda]

You said you've been Buddhist for a long time - are you a Theravada, Mahayana, or a Vajrayana practicioner? If you are either Mahayana or Vajrayana (like me) you are definitely on your own as there a a very, very few such practicioners in Bangkok, etc. If you are Theravada, Thai Buddhism is that also, but in a very strict sense. That is, no slipping in Mahayana or Vajrayana concepts such as the bodhisattva ideal or that enlightened masters other than Shakyamuni have appeared in the world, or the need for a person guru. Thai Buddhism is very individualistic in this regard.

Language is a huge problem as is culture. Thai culture is not as friendly as the "Land of Smiles" marketing slogan would indicate. Chances are you'll never integrate to the extent you wish. While, as one poster says, your must make your own way anyway, a teacher with whom you have an affinity and with whom are able to communicate is essential. That may be extremely difficult in Thailand. If you wish to stay and practice Thai Buddhism, you'll need find a temple with an English-speaking teacher.

Thanks for the reply. To answer your question: Theravada. As far as finding a Wat with an "available" English speaking teacher, I haven't found one yet. Farang Buddhists seem to confuse the heck out even the monks. They do try: the various retreats and Monk Chat at Wat Suan Dok, Wat Chedi Luang, and Wat Umong (this is the only Wat where weekly dharma talks are giving by a farang monk).

What I am trying to do is find a Wat willing to bridge that gap. My limited Thai with their limited English. And honestly, the burden is on me to become fluent in Thai. But until that time, I'm just trying to bridge gaps.

[connda]

I'm guessing you had a good connection with a local practise oriented sangha when you were in the west and that's what you're missing.

To be honest I've never expected to have that in Thailand, I've never expected to have the fellowship of like minded people which is possibly one of the reasons why I've never been willing to move here permanently.

Thailand (and SE Asia in general) is a great place to do retreats as you've pointed out, and while I've met some good Thai Buddhists I don't think any have the slightest idea what really motivates a farang to practise Buddhism. Even the retreats are very different than in the west, much less opportunity to really talk about things.

I think you should follow the Buddhas advise and be an island/lamp unto yourself, don't expect to have the support of like minded people in Thailand while still making the most of the opportunities you can.

Interestingly enough, I started my practice after reading a book (probably out of print) by Stephan Levine called A Gradual Awakening. That put me on the path. As far as having like minded individuals around me, man...I've live a good part of my life in rural Christian Bible Belt areas totally devoid of anything "heathen"

Years later I came across Being Dharma with was a compilation of talks by Ajahn Chah from Wat Nong Pah Pong, and through his compassion for all humans, even us Farangs, establish Wat Pah Nanachat in Eastern Issan.

Now this is the type of monk I'm looking for. Not some English speaking Dharma master, but a simple monk who is willing to allow us farang to bridge that gap -- and to help us do it. So who is my teacher -- Ajahn Chah although many years after his passing. But it's through my readings of the translations of his talks that lead me to Dharma as I understand it. And it's my own personal meditation practice that I've verified the "truth" of his teaching. sila, samadhi, panna. Breathe. Be aware. That simple.

As far as being a "lamp unto myself" outside of the Sangha, here is something I wrote to someone else and feel free to comment on it:

Now Sangha. Why didn't Buddha just teach the Double Gem: Buddha and Dharma? Isn't that enough? The Buddha verified the path, and the Dharma shows us the way. So we should all be able to go forth individually and walk the path. Buddha did it -- why not everyone else? But wait? What did Buddha do after enlightenment?

What did he do? Walk around in a state of enlightenment like a spiritual singularity. Did he teach the concept of Dharma and then tell his disciples to go walk the road alone?

To "be a lamp unto yourself", of course. Meditation...Samadhi an individual journey. No one can do it for you. All the Dharma talks in the world aren't going help you evolve. But -- humans are social creatures. Why didn't Buddha just say: "Well, here's that path. Now strike out on your own, find a nice cave or forest, and "GOOD LUCK TO YOU."

That's not what happened. The Sangha happens, the third leg of the Triple Gem.

If we are human, we can walk that path. If we are human, we should be accepted into the Sangha. If there are wise Thai monks still in existence in this country, such as Ajahn Chah, then there should be Wats like Wat Pah Nanachat in Northern Thailand, Central Thailand, and Southern Thailand -- not just Eastern Issan.

I just believe in my heart that the gap between Thai and foreign Theravada Buddhists is a bridgeable gap. Funny! I've been asking myself the same question over and over since I came here -- "What is my purpose in life." And tonight I think the answer just occurred to me.

Edited November 29, 2012 by connda

[fabianfred]

Nowadays, Sangha is taken to mean the whole business......monks, novices, nuns, and lay-followers meaning eight-precepters who sleep in temples each Buddha day, and even all other five precept Buddhists. The thais even have a saying 'Buddha boorisat' meaning something like 'Buddhist company'. For the Thais who have grown up members of all this, a lot of it is more like a social gathering or social club. Going to the temple on Buddha days or Buddhist feast days to make merit, go visiting other temples etc. its all like a big club. The main stress is upon making merit and that usually means the first most basic form of donations, alms-giving, listening to dhamma talks...even if they are sung in a funny way or voice and are mostly unintelligible....being there is seen as the thing.

IMHO if you spend time sitting with hands in Anjali to show respect but cannot understand what is being said you aren't getting much out of it. In those cases I prefer to close my eyes and sit and meditate, using the background noise as just that. It might arouse shocked looks from the Thais but I refuse to conform just for the sake of it, and even did so as a monk.

We are different....we will never be accepted as Thai even after living here 50 years and speaking perfectly and having obtained Thai Nationality.

Actually because we have approached it from the outside we have a better perspective of Buddhism than the Thais do. We learn that practice is the most important thing, which boils down to meditation....and that the Buddhas own technique which is refferred to as Vipassana is the best way to practice and reach Nibbana rather than the more commonly practiced Samatha done by the Thais.

Once you know how to practice you can do it any and all the time....no need for temples, monks and all the rest. We don't need all the social side of it which the Thais do.

Originally the Sangha was composed of those who were Ariyachon and the Triple Gem only came into existence after one of The Buddha's five followers reached Stream-entry upon hearing the first teaching of the Four Noble Truths...setting in motion the wheel of Dhamma.

In the New Year, We are hoping to restart the temple stay and Novice ordination program in Fang, which was running before under the name of MonkforaMonth and fell apart in the last year or so as its founder organisation pulled-out..Blood Foundation...and myself and the other Farang monk left the temple. All will be welcome to come and learn and practice from myself and the novice we have at the temple who is an American guy. Although i don't live at the temple my home is only 10km. away.

[rockyysdt]

Nowadays, Sangha is taken to mean the whole business......monks, novices, nuns, and lay-followers meaning eight-precepters who sleep in temples each Buddha day, and even all other five precept Buddhists. The thais even have a saying 'Buddha boorisat' meaning something like 'Buddhist company'. For the Thais who have grown up members of all this, a lot of it is more like a social gathering or social club. Going to the temple on Buddha days or Buddhist feast days to make merit, go visiting other temples etc. its all like a big club. The main stress is upon making merit and that usually means the first most basic form of donations, alms-giving, listening to dhamma talks...even if they are sung in a funny way or voice and are mostly unintelligible....being there is seen as the thing.

To me the Sangha represents a community which not only offers encouragement but also guidance as one attains ever higher levels.

For me the Sangha manifests via several methods, through publications, online forums, regular meditation groups, retreats and perhaps eventually under a master such as an Aranhant.

Without encouragement it can be extremely easy to drop ones practice.

Most of us now accept that the Buddhist Culture practiced today in many places is just that, cultural and nothing to do with what the Buddha taught.

This is one of the reasons why a foreign Buddhist perspective differs to a Thais.

Actually because we have approached it from the outside we have a better perspective of Buddhism than the Thais do. We learn that practice is the most important thing, which boils down to meditation....and that the Buddhas own technique which is refferred to as Vipassana is the best way to practice and reach Nibbana rather than the more commonly practiced Samatha done by the Thais.

Once you know how to practice you can do it any and all the time....no need for temples, monks and all the rest. We don't need all the social side of it which the Thais do.

Can you explain this one more Fred?

The difference between Vipassana & Samatha.

I thought Samatha is part of the Vipassana process which includes anapanasiti.

Isn't Samatha the calming of the mind through focus on the breath (mindfulness) the beginning of the practice?

Doesn't this refine ones concentration in order to establish mindfulness?

[Xangsamhua]

At the risk of sounding churlish, I suspect you're in the wrong country to practise Buddhism.

Having said that, why not think of this, the Buddhism forum, as a sangha?

I've learnt much from the discussions and the generally polite and helpful responses to my own queries from experienced practitioners in this sub-forum. I've also received material assistance (in the form of herbal medication) from a highly respected and knowledgeable member of this forum. Although I don't think I've met any Buddhism forum contributors in the flesh, I think of them as online friends and fellow seekers.

There are web-based sanghas, e.g. the Treeleaf Soto Zen virtual community, but you need to be into Zen to feel a part of that. They actually do online ordinations.

A farang-friendly sangha for lay people in Thailand would be a very marginal one, I think. It seems to me that Thai Buddhism is really for the Thais. Farangs just don't have a place in it.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Xangsamhua

[fabianfred]

Samatha or concentration meditation is practiced in many parts of the world and in many religions and the Buddha himself practiced it throughout the time he was an unenlightened Boddhisatta right up until when he sat under the Bodhi tree.

As we know, from Mae Chi Gaeow's book as well as others, one can easily lose ones way,... get caught up in all the jhana stuff and superman powers etc.

Without examining reality which is what vipassana does, one will not attain the wisdom to see things as they really are.

Concentration alone is just like going into a trance and sinking deeper and deeper into mind states...like retreating from the world.

Vipassana is being totally aware of every moment...the opposite in a way.

Because the Buddha attained enlightenment through vipassana, he then taught it as the only way to escape to Nibbana. Therefore whenb a Buddha has gone and all knowledge of vipassana has been lost there is no way for an ordinary being to rediscover the way by themself....it is too profound.

If it were possible to attain to Nibbana by practicing Samatha alone then there would be no need for Buddhas...to discover vipassana and the way...

[rockyysdt]

Agreed.

Yes, deep jhanic concentration can lead you down some false paths and hence the need for guides, but isn't it still part of the path?

Right Concentration.

Right Mindfulness.

Right Effort.

We definitely need to be aware in the moment but doesn't the concentration assist with the awareness and in turn the wisdom which comes?

Samatha or concentration meditation is practiced in many parts of the world and in many religions and the Buddha himself practiced it throughout the time he was an unenlightened Boddhisatta right up until when he sat under the Bodhi tree.

As we know, from Mae Chi Gaeow's book as well as others, one can easily lose ones way,... get caught up in all the jhana stuff and superman powers etc.

Without examining reality which is what vipassana does, one will not attain the wisdom to see things as they really are.

Concentration alone is just like going into a trance and sinking deeper and deeper into mind states...like retreating from the world.

Vipassana is being totally aware of every moment...the opposite in a way.

Because the Buddha attained enlightenment through vipassana, he then taught it as the only way to escape to Nibbana. Therefore whenb a Buddha has gone and all knowledge of vipassana has been lost there is no way for an ordinary being to rediscover the way by themself....it is too profound.

If it were possible to attain to Nibbana by practicing Samatha alone then there would be no need for Buddhas...to discover vipassana and the way...

[rockyysdt]

I suspect it's conditioning, but when your Avatar appears it comes with a sense of assurance, ease, and encouragement.

Along with others, one from my Sangha.

At the risk of sounding churlish, I suspect you're in the wrong country to practise Buddhism.

Having said that, why not think of this, the Buddhism forum, as a sangha?

I've learnt much from the discussions and the generally polite and helpful responses to my own queries from experienced practitioners in this sub-forum. I've also received material assistance (in the form of herbal medication) from a highly respected and knowledgeable member of this forum. Although I don't think I've met any Buddhism forum contributors in the flesh, I think of them as online friends and fellow seekers.

There are web-based sanghas, e.g. the Treeleaf Soto Zen virtual community, but you need to be into Zen to feel a part of that. They actually do online ordinations.

A farang-friendly sangha for lay people in Thailand would be a very marginal one, I think. It seems to me that Thai Buddhism is really for the Thais. Farangs just don't have a place in it.

[fabianfred]

Xangsamhua being an ardent practicioner of Mahayana will not be satisfied with thai Buddhism.

I believe it is quite possible to practice here...and the real practice is a personal thing....keeping the precepts and meditation.

All the Sangha and stuff is for those who are still not sure of the way to practice and need guidance, or for those who feel that the practice is only for the ordained and lay followers should only seek to gain merit in the commonly understood ways.....alms-giving and donations.

Those too lazy to keep the precepts try to make up for it by lots of dana...

Those too lazy to meditate make up for it by doing lots of chanting....

The vast majority of Thais (including the monkhood) are like this...

It is not so easy for a Farang to learn much here...from the Thais. We need to find stuff out on our own or from Western monks.

[rockyysdt]

It is not so easy for a Farang to learn much here...from the Thais. We need to find stuff out on our own or from Western monks.

They'd be in the minority but aren't there worthy Thai Arahants who can guide and teach?

[fabianfred]

Concentration comes with practice. When we start to learn how to be mindful by studying vipassana they often teach to do 'noting' which helps to tie the awareness to the action or thought or sensation. As we practice our understanding of mindfulness increases and our concentration upon mindfulness gets stronger.

It has been suggested that mindfulness and concentration are different ends of the same stick.

Having concentration whilst practicing mindfulness is not the same as practicing concentration meditation techniques.

Using a mantra such as Budd-ho or counting breaths or anapasati is Samatha ...a different path to vipassana and mindfulness.

[fabianfred]

I have been fortunate to have two Thai arahants as my teachers.

The first is LP Jaran of Wat Amphawan and it was through the books written about his life by a Thai woman author which led me to vipassana and his temple.

The second is my present teacher Supawan Green.

Both i met through reading books about them and their teachings.

[Brucenkhamen]

A farang-friendly sangha for lay people in Thailand would be a very marginal one, I think. It seems to me that Thai Buddhism is really for the Thais. Farangs just don't have a place in it.

I wouldn't go to this extreme. Many farangs have benefited greatly from "Thai Buddhism" and I think the answer is that you need a critical mass of farangs so that you're able to leave the worst of thai culture out of it and keep that which is supportive of Buddhism, similarly with farang culture.

Ajahn Chahs farang sangha is a good example of this, places like Wat Pah Nanachat don't have so much Thainess, there might be others. The trouble is you really need to ordain to be a part of of that sangha in Thailand, this is less so in the west I think where western lay supporters are a more involved part of it.

I think it's no accident that what we see developing in the West with groups like the Insight Meditation Society is so different from the Thai/Burmese Buddhism it evolved from, some westerners are ok with a foreign culture added in there but most aren't.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Brucenkhamen

[khaowong1]

I have been fortunate to have two Thai arahants as my teachers.

The first is LP Jaran of Wat Amphawan and it was through the books written about his life by a Thai woman author which led me to vipassana and his temple.

The second is my present teacher Supawan Green.

Both i met through reading books about them and their teachings.

LP Jaran I love, but haven't heard of Supawan Green. What books of hers would you recommend?

[fabianfred]

I have been fortunate to have two Thai arahants as my teachers.

The first is LP Jaran of Wat Amphawan and it was through the books written about his life by a Thai woman author which led me to vipassana and his temple.

The second is my present teacher Supawan Green.

Both i met through reading books about them and their teachings.

LP Jaran I love, but haven't heard of Supawan Green. What books of hers would you recommend?

All..... she writes both English and Thai books...does seminars around the world each year too...

Ask me if you want more details

https://www.facebook.com/supawan.green?fref=ts

http://www.supawangreen.in.th/?lang=En

http://www.scribd.com/doc/63414355/The-User-Guide-to-Life-The-Moral-Diet

http://www.scribd.com/doc/63414345/The-User-Guide-to-Life-Law-of-Karma

[HeavyDrinker]

To be honest having not even read any of the above it sounds like you need just to "find yourself"

You won't do this through faux imitations of "Thai Buddhism" but through maybe heading to the stunning beaches of the Isle of Barra or any quiet place and just getting your shit together.

Taking a mate helps a lot too.

[Xangsamhua]

I have been fortunate to have two Thai arahants as my teachers.

The first is LP Jaran of Wat Amphawan and it was through the books written about his life by a Thai woman author which led me to vipassana and his temple.

The second is my present teacher Supawan Green.

Both i met through reading books about them and their teachings.

LP Jaran I love, but haven't heard of Supawan Green. What books of hers would you recommend?

All..... she writes both English and Thai books...does seminars around the world each year too...

Ask me if you want more details

https://www.facebook...n.green?fref=ts

http://www.supawangreen.in.th/?lang=En

http://www.scribd.co...-The-Moral-Diet

http://www.scribd.co...fe-Law-of-Karma

I enjoyed Supawan Green's books, too, but haven't read any in a long time.

I also enjoyed LP Jaran's books. Read them about the same time as I read Supawan's (about 10 years ago).

I'm not just an "ardent practitioner of Mahayana" (Fabian Fred above, #12). We can learn from the best in all traditions.

From memory, Supawan Green was severely shaken into Dhamma consciousness by her observation of the student uprisings of 1973 and 1976 and the military reaction to them. She realized that more was needed than just political reform. I wonder who will arise as Dhamma teachers as a result of the depressing experiences of red and yellow protests in the recent past.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Xangsamhua

[rockyysdt]

This is where I'm confused Fred.

I thought that the eightfold path includes both:

Right Concentration = Samatha

Right Mindfulness = Mindfullness

And that practicing each supports the other.

Are you saying to drop the "sitting" and replace it with daily mindfulness from the moment one arises until one falls asleep?

My understanding was that deep levels of concentration established during sitting meditation facilitates mindfulness during and throughout the day.

Concentration comes with practice. When we start to learn how to be mindful by studying vipassana they often teach to do 'noting' which helps to tie the awareness to the action or thought or sensation. As we practice our understanding of mindfulness increases and our concentration upon mindfulness gets stronger.

It has been suggested that mindfulness and concentration are different ends of the same stick.

Having concentration whilst practicing mindfulness is not the same as practicing concentration meditation techniques.

Using a mantra such as Budd-ho or counting breaths or anapasati is Samatha ...a different path to vipassana and mindfulness.

Edited December 3, 2012 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

http://www.thesecula....com/nep_07.php

The last paragraph is most revealing...

and this... especially where is differentiates between concentration...and Right Concentration.

http://www.dailybuddhism.com/archives/32

Edited December 3, 2012 by fabianfred

[fabianfred]

Are you saying to drop the "sitting" and replace it with daily mindfulness from the moment one arises until one falls asleep?

No need to drop the sitting if you enjoy it...but the second half of your sentence is the real practice...what all the sitting is aiming at...

Edited December 3, 2012 by fabianfred

[huli]

I'm guessing you had a good connection with a local practise oriented sangha when you were in the west and that's what you're missing.

To be honest I've never expected to have that in Thailand, I've never expected to have the fellowship of like minded people which is possibly one of the reasons why I've never been willing to move here permanently.

Thailand (and SE Asia in general) is a great place to do retreats as you've pointed out, and while I've met some good Thai Buddhists I don't think any have the slightest idea what really motivates a farang to practise Buddhism. Even the retreats are very different than in the west, much less opportunity to really talk about things.

I think you should follow the Buddhas advise and be an island/lamp unto yourself, don't expect to have the support of like minded people in Thailand while still making the most of the opportunities you can.

Interestingly enough, I started my practice after reading a book (probably out of print) by Stephan Levine called A Gradual Awakening. That put me on the path. As far as having like minded individuals around me, man...I've live a good part of my life in rural Christian Bible Belt areas totally devoid of anything "heathen"

Years later I came across Being Dharma with was a compilation of talks by Ajahn Chah from Wat Nong Pah Pong, and through his compassion for all humans, even us Farangs, establish Wat Pah Nanachat in Eastern Issan.

Now this is the type of monk I'm looking for. Not some English speaking Dharma master, but a simple monk who is willing to allow us farang to bridge that gap -- and to help us do it. So who is my teacher -- Ajahn Chah although many years after his passing. But it's through my readings of the translations of his talks that lead me to Dharma as I understand it. And it's my own personal meditation practice that I've verified the "truth" of his teaching. sila, samadhi, panna. Breathe. Be aware. That simple.

As far as being a "lamp unto myself" outside of the Sangha, here is something I wrote to someone else and feel free to comment on it:

Now Sangha. Why didn't Buddha just teach the Double Gem: Buddha and Dharma? Isn't that enough? The Buddha verified the path, and the Dharma shows us the way. So we should all be able to go forth individually and walk the path. Buddha did it -- why not everyone else? But wait? What did Buddha do after enlightenment?

What did he do? Walk around in a state of enlightenment like a spiritual singularity. Did he teach the concept of Dharma and then tell his disciples to go walk the road alone?

To "be a lamp unto yourself", of course. Meditation...Samadhi an individual journey. No one can do it for you. All the Dharma talks in the world aren't going help you evolve. But -- humans are social creatures. Why didn't Buddha just say: "Well, here's that path. Now strike out on your own, find a nice cave or forest, and "GOOD LUCK TO YOU."

That's not what happened. The Sangha happens, the third leg of the Triple Gem.

If we are human, we can walk that path. If we are human, we should be accepted into the Sangha. If there are wise Thai monks still in existence in this country, such as Ajahn Chah, then there should be Wats like Wat Pah Nanachat in Northern Thailand, Central Thailand, and Southern Thailand -- not just Eastern Issan.

I just believe in my heart that the gap between Thai and foreign Theravada Buddhists is a bridgeable gap. Funny! I've been asking myself the same question over and over since I came here -- "What is my purpose in life." And tonight I think the answer just occurred to me.

I have researched this a bit, and I believe that originally as set up by Buddha, the term "Sangha" referred only to the community of monks and nuns. It appears that the term has evolved in some quarters and today some people use it to refer to lay Buddhists also. This may partly explain why the OP and others, chiefly foreigners, half-way expect the monks to teach them advanced Buddhism deeper and deeper. Traditionally, the lay folk just kept the precepts and gave alms and support to the monks, for the most part anyway. This is still the case in today's Thai Buddhist society.

For what it's worth.

[Jawnie]

I'm guessing you had a good connection with a local practise oriented sangha when you were in the west and that's what you're missing.

To be honest I've never expected to have that in Thailand, I've never expected to have the fellowship of like minded people which is possibly one of the reasons why I've never been willing to move here permanently.

Thailand (and SE Asia in general) is a great place to do retreats as you've pointed out, and while I've met some good Thai Buddhists I don't think any have the slightest idea what really motivates a farang to practise Buddhism. Even the retreats are very different than in the west, much less opportunity to really talk about things.

I think you should follow the Buddhas advise and be an island/lamp unto yourself, don't expect to have the support of like minded people in Thailand while still making the most of the opportunities you can.

Interestingly enough, I started my practice after reading a book (probably out of print) by Stephan Levine called A Gradual Awakening. That put me on the path. As far as having like minded individuals around me, man...I've live a good part of my life in rural Christian Bible Belt areas totally devoid of anything "heathen"

Years later I came across Being Dharma with was a compilation of talks by Ajahn Chah from Wat Nong Pah Pong, and through his compassion for all humans, even us Farangs, establish Wat Pah Nanachat in Eastern Issan.

Now this is the type of monk I'm looking for. Not some English speaking Dharma master, but a simple monk who is willing to allow us farang to bridge that gap -- and to help us do it. So who is my teacher -- Ajahn Chah although many years after his passing. But it's through my readings of the translations of his talks that lead me to Dharma as I understand it. And it's my own personal meditation practice that I've verified the "truth" of his teaching. sila, samadhi, panna. Breathe. Be aware. That simple.

As far as being a "lamp unto myself" outside of the Sangha, here is something I wrote to someone else and feel free to comment on it:

Now Sangha. Why didn't Buddha just teach the Double Gem: Buddha and Dharma? Isn't that enough? The Buddha verified the path, and the Dharma shows us the way. So we should all be able to go forth individually and walk the path. Buddha did it -- why not everyone else? But wait? What did Buddha do after enlightenment?

What did he do? Walk around in a state of enlightenment like a spiritual singularity. Did he teach the concept of Dharma and then tell his disciples to go walk the road alone?

To "be a lamp unto yourself", of course. Meditation...Samadhi an individual journey. No one can do it for you. All the Dharma talks in the world aren't going help you evolve. But -- humans are social creatures. Why didn't Buddha just say: "Well, here's that path. Now strike out on your own, find a nice cave or forest, and "GOOD LUCK TO YOU."

That's not what happened. The Sangha happens, the third leg of the Triple Gem.

If we are human, we can walk that path. If we are human, we should be accepted into the Sangha. If there are wise Thai monks still in existence in this country, such as Ajahn Chah, then there should be Wats like Wat Pah Nanachat in Northern Thailand, Central Thailand, and Southern Thailand -- not just Eastern Issan.

I just believe in my heart that the gap between Thai and foreign Theravada Buddhists is a bridgeable gap. Funny! I've been asking myself the same question over and over since I came here -- "What is my purpose in life." And tonight I think the answer just occurred to me.

I have researched this a bit, and I believe that originally as set up by Buddha, the term "Sangha" referred only to the community of monks and nuns. It appears that the term has evolved in some quarters and today some people use it to refer to lay Buddhists also. This may partly explain why the OP and others, chiefly foreigners, half-way expect the monks to teach them advanced Buddhism deeper and deeper. Traditionally, the lay folk just kept the precepts and gave alms and support to the monks, for the most part anyway. This is still the case in today's Thai Buddhist society.

For what it's worth.

The lay sangha is just that, lay - without monk/nun vows. In any case, there are vows for the lay sangha as well. Of course, traditionally is considered best if one takes full ordination.

[connda]

Agreed.

Yes, deep jhanic concentration can lead you down some false paths and hence the need for guides, but isn't it still part of the path?

Right Concentration.

Right Mindfulness.

Right Effort.

We definitely need to be aware in the moment but doesn't the concentration assist with the awareness and in turn the wisdom which comes?

Samatha or concentration meditation is practiced in many parts of the world and in many religions and the Buddha himself practiced it throughout the time he was an unenlightened Boddhisatta right up until when he sat under the Bodhi tree.

As we know, from Mae Chi Gaeow's book as well as others, one can easily lose ones way,... get caught up in all the jhana stuff and superman powers etc.

Without examining reality which is what vipassana does, one will not attain the wisdom to see things as they really are.

Concentration alone is just like going into a trance and sinking deeper and deeper into mind states...like retreating from the world.

Vipassana is being totally aware of every moment...the opposite in a way.

Because the Buddha attained enlightenment through vipassana, he then taught it as the only way to escape to Nibbana. Therefore whenb a Buddha has gone and all knowledge of vipassana has been lost there is no way for an ordinary being to rediscover the way by themself....it is too profound.

If it were possible to attain to Nibbana by practicing Samatha alone then there would be no need for Buddhas...to discover vipassana and the way...

Consider Samantha or concentration (one-pointedness) as providing the state of mind to investigate the subtleties of those things that arise and can be sensed: hence using the power of Samantha to focus clearly on phenomena experienced arising during Vipassana at subtler and subtler levels.

[lungmi]

I'm guessing you had a good connection with a local practise oriented sangha when you were in the west and that's what you're missing.

To be honest I've never expected to have that in Thailand, I've never expected to have the fellowship of like minded people which is possibly one of the reasons why I've never been willing to move here permanently.

Thailand (and SE Asia in general) is a great place to do retreats as you've pointed out, and while I've met some good Thai Buddhists I don't think any have the slightest idea what really motivates a farang to practise Buddhism. Even the retreats are very different than in the west, much less opportunity to really talk about things.

I think you should follow the Buddhas advise and be an island/lamp unto yourself, don't expect to have the support of like minded people in Thailand while still making the most of the opportunities you can.

Interestingly enough, I started my practice after reading a book (probably out of print) by Stephan Levine called A Gradual Awakening. That put me on the path. As far as having like minded individuals around me, man...I've live a good part of my life in rural Christian Bible Belt areas totally devoid of anything "heathen"

Years later I came across Being Dharma with was a compilation of talks by Ajahn Chah from Wat Nong Pah Pong, and through his compassion for all humans, even us Farangs, establish Wat Pah Nanachat in Eastern Issan.

Now this is the type of monk I'm looking for. Not some English speaking Dharma master, but a simple monk who is willing to allow us farang to bridge that gap -- and to help us do it. So who is my teacher -- Ajahn Chah although many years after his passing. But it's through my readings of the translations of his talks that lead me to Dharma as I understand it. And it's my own personal meditation practice that I've verified the "truth" of his teaching. sila, samadhi, panna. Breathe. Be aware. That simple.

As far as being a "lamp unto myself" outside of the Sangha, here is something I wrote to someone else and feel free to comment on it:

Now Sangha. Why didn't Buddha just teach the Double Gem: Buddha and Dharma? Isn't that enough? The Buddha verified the path, and the Dharma shows us the way. So we should all be able to go forth individually and walk the path. Buddha did it -- why not everyone else? But wait? What did Buddha do after enlightenment?

What did he do? Walk around in a state of enlightenment like a spiritual singularity. Did he teach the concept of Dharma and then tell his disciples to go walk the road alone?

To "be a lamp unto yourself", of course. Meditation...Samadhi an individual journey. No one can do it for you. All the Dharma talks in the world aren't going help you evolve. But -- humans are social creatures. Why didn't Buddha just say: "Well, here's that path. Now strike out on your own, find a nice cave or forest, and "GOOD LUCK TO YOU."

That's not what happened. The Sangha happens, the third leg of the Triple Gem.

If we are human, we can walk that path. If we are human, we should be accepted into the Sangha. If there are wise Thai monks still in existence in this country, such as Ajahn Chah, then there should be Wats like Wat Pah Nanachat in Northern Thailand, Central Thailand, and Southern Thailand -- not just Eastern Issan.

I just believe in my heart that the gap between Thai and foreign Theravada Buddhists is a bridgeable gap. Funny! I've been asking myself the same question over and over since I came here -- "What is my purpose in life." And tonight I think the answer just occurred to me.

I have researched this a bit, and I believe that originally as set up by Buddha, the term "Sangha" referred only to the community of monks and nuns. It appears that the term has evolved in some quarters and today some people use it to refer to lay Buddhists also. This may partly explain why the OP and others, chiefly foreigners, half-way expect the monks to teach them advanced Buddhism deeper and deeper. Traditionally, the lay folk just kept the precepts and gave alms and support to the monks, for the most part anyway. This is still the case in today's Thai Buddhist society.

For what it's worth.

For more information study this:

http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/sangha.htm

[lungmi]

Innocent Buddhist I was as a Baby.

My first remembering of my baby time was a a teaching of my grandfather: You come late for the dinner:God see you (showing me a big cloud with the face of mythological "Gods".

I was confused. I loved my Grandfather. But I answered This is a cloud.

For me Buddhism is the constant research of "what is what"

[lungmi]

And the Buddha gives me the highest freedom for this research. (kalanamsutta)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.than.html