Reasons Not To Study A New Language

[AbeSurd]

I can relate to this article about possible downsides to learning a new language.....

http://flagostomos.h...-a-New-Language

In particular points 6 and 4:

6. "Your brain is literally re-wired. How could this possibly be such a bad thing? You know those people that say learning another language makes you smarter because it does something to your brain? Those same people forget to admit that during the rewiring process, your brain becomes something akin to that brown jar of golden liquid in the back of your refrigerator."

4. "Your brain literally hurts after long exposure. This is something akin to burnout after studying for a test. Your brain cannot process too much information at once, and once it hits overload it shuts down ... You will notice this if you ever go to any event where you will hear lectures or discourses in your new language. At first it's exciting to see how much you can comprehend but after awhile, you notice you cannot pay attention any longer."

Me, I'm 60, and in generally good health (I think). I first came to Thailand some six years ago. Over the first 2-3 years I probably spent a year taking one-on-one Thai lessons and doing a lot of private study. It was sometimes very hard but I just got on with it. Recently I resumed lessons - this time group lessons. This was okay at first, I coped well. But recently the work has got MUCH harder and I'm shocked at how much it's affecting me adversely. Frankly I've never known anything like it.

As I say, points 6 and 4 kind of sum up what I'm going through. Perversely enough I actually found the article somewhat reassuring as I assume the author is somewhat younger than me.

Anyone else gone through anything similar?

[Bangkokhatter]

Am a few years younger than you and been here nearly 4 years but only just started taking 1 on 1 lessons recently after messing about with a few group lessons here and there and not really trying hard enough to learn.

I must admit i do suffer with over information and really struggle to remember about 20 % of each lesson afterwards but am gonna struggle on cos i was told " it gets easier easier honest "

[AbeSurd]

Am a few years younger than you and been here nearly 4 years but only just started taking 1 on 1 lessons recently after messing about with a few group lessons here and there and not really trying hard enough to learn.

I must admit i do suffer with over information and really struggle to remember about 20 % of each lesson afterwards but am gonna struggle on cos i was told " it gets easier easier honest "

Good luck with that. I only wish I knew when it was going to get easier for me!

I found with one-on-one lessons that one hour a day of that was enough. Three days a week. So only a total of three hours tuition a week. Plus quite a lot of private study. Mind you, I've only ever been doing this, as it were, for pleasure. I don't have to learn it for work or anything. I reckon that does affect one's perspective about how much 'pain' one is prepared to endure. But, having said that, I'm pretty motivated - 'serious pleasure' probably sums up my approach best.

But, even so, I'm shocked that it's suddenly debilitating me in this way. As I said before, initially I found the group lessons (nine hours a week) fine. But suddenly the tables have turned.

[leosmith]

It's difficult, of course. But well worth it. It doesn't affect your ability to use your own language, or do anything negative other than make you tired, so I don't see the problem.

[AbeSurd]

It's difficult, of course. But well worth it. It doesn't affect your ability to use your own language, or do anything negative other than make you tired, so I don't see the problem.

Up until a couple of weeks ago I'd have probably agreed with you.

Did you read the article? The author, a language enthusiast, makes some interesting points over and above the ones I highlighted in my OP. One of those is the suggestion that it can indeed affect your ability to use your own language.

[CaptHaddock]

I am always surprised at the many arguments that the ignorance-is-good crowd manages to come up with against learning Thai. I am 63, study Thai in class 3 hours a day 5 days a week, and do homework another 3 hours a day. The more Thai I learn the more I like it. It's certainly hard work, but it's very satisfying. As far as the posted article, that guy is a putz, certainly not someone I would ever take advice from.

Edited November 30, 2012 by CaptHaddock

[AbeSurd]

I am always surprised at the many arguments that the ignorance-is-good crowd manages to come up with against learning Thai. I am 63, study Thai in class 3 hours a day 5 days a week, and do homework another 3 hours a day. The more Thai I learn the more I like it. It's certainly hard work, but it's very satisfying. As far as the posted article, that guy is a putz, certainly not someone I would ever take advice from.

So your answer to my question "Anyone else gone through anything similar?" is "no". Cool. Well done.

No reason to get nowty.

[mania]

I do not think it is any different than learning anything complex.

Yes not easy & at times hurts in a sense of using a lot of energy

Same as when you crammed in High school or College.

but other than that I think this persons reasons are a bit silly.

Yes he is as he states

flagostomos

Joined 19 months ago from Washington, United States.

There's not a lot to say about me. I'm no expert in anything but I love writing.

But I would not put too much weight or fear into what he writes.

If someone wants to learn...learn. If not don't, but I do not think physical/mental ailments

is a legit reason to claim for stopping learning anything, anytime,anywhere

While he is a self proclaimed expert in nothing. Many medical experts have written over the years

what kept older folks sharp was in fact mental activity. Those who worked longer & had to problem

solve etc. seemed to do much better. Of course barring any physical/mental health issues.

Just my opinion on it & I am no expert of anything either

[CaptHaddock]

So your answer to my question "Anyone else gone through anything similar?" is "no". Cool. Well done.

No reason to get nowty.

Nothing makes me nowtier than listening to low information people attempt to pass off their own low levels of achievement as either normative or "reasonable."

[Rsquared]

I agree with Mania.....the author of that article does not impress me at all.

If you can get your hands on this book "The Brain That Changes Itself" by Norman Doidge MD you will be amazed at what our brains are capable of and how they refer to plasticity as the way our brains rewire themselves.

I just need to stop procrastinating to get on with my learning Thai.

.....but to answer the OP....no I have not experienced what you have as I have not learnt enough Thai at this stage.

Edited November 30, 2012 by Rsquared

[Zooheekock]

during the rewiring process, your brain becomes something akin to that brown jar of golden liquid in the back of your refrigerator.

No. It. Doesn't. Not in reality and not metaphorically. What an awful article.

Edited November 30, 2012 by Zooheekock

[kpmsprtd]

I was not impressed by the quality of the article linked, but I believe I understand what you are getting at. I agree that studying a language analytically--especially in a stereotypical classroom language learning environment--causes the symptoms you have described. Fortunately, there is an alternative, the Natural Approach to language learning.

I see

that AUA is doing their Thai language course in Pattaya. It would certainly be worth sitting in a class or two to experience learning Thai stress-free. I have attended their Bangkok courses intermittently in the past, and look forward to the opportunity to do so again.

Disclaimer: My familiarity with the AUA courses is limited to the listening and eventual speech emergence course. I don't know anything about the reading and writing courses. I certainly like their teachers, hard workers all.

[AbeSurd]

The posters here who think I'm somehow trying to find excuses to shirk school are hysterical

So my thanks to those who, at least in this matter, appear to be giving me the benefit of the doubt

For those being unduly harsh about the article, if you read the last of the comments at the bottom, you'll see the writer talks about being 'satirical'. In his last point he says "culture and language go hand in hand. You haven't just taken steps to learn the language, you've also begun to change your culture." Satirical or not, I think there's a lot of truth to that. Especially if, like me, you're also trying to live in the country whose language you're trying to learn.

In my time I've studied other subjects very hard. And the work I was involved in until relatively recently could be extremely demanding mentally. However, learning Thai - for me at any rate - is proving to be something else altogether. It's starting to mess with my head in ways that I'm not sure I'm comfortable with. Of course I'm older now, and grimly aware we do start to fall apart!

No one here - so far - really shares these feelings. Fair enough. That's all part of what I was trying to find out by creating this thread. Thank you for contributing.

[mania]

In my time I've studied other subjects very hard. And the work I was involved in until relatively recently could be extremely demanding mentally. However, learning Thai - for me at any rate - is proving to be something else altogether. It's starting to mess with my head in ways that I'm not sure I'm comfortable with. Of course I'm older now, and grimly aware we do start to fall apart!

No one here - so far - really shares these feelings. Fair enough. That's all part of what I was trying to find out by creating this thread. Thank you for contributing.

Hi Abe

No I think you do experience what your describing & although I am a little younger than you I do think

what you describe does get harder with age.

In my reading & writing Thai class folks my age had a harder time than a couple of young Singaporean students

They were still in school so I think the studying was not a bit of a shock to them

As for myself OMG some days I felt really really burnt by the end of the day.

While class was only 3 hours I had a good 6 hours of homework

Mainly because I had to sort the days info into my brain in a way I could assimilate it.

So I do agree with you when you say it can be uncomfortable. But for most of us it is not

a revolution but an evolution so my advice would be take it slowly, steady & keep it fun.

There will be times when your bogged down & uncomfortable but there is no deadline & every

now & then you will have an Ahhh Haaaa moment & it is a great little reward.

Thanks for your post

[Parvis]

Well - Abe

I am 10 years older than you and I certainly do not share your point of view - nor your experience. I have met various individuals who have suggested to me "Why do you bother? Why do you put in the effort to speak a language that is not internationally useful?"

My answer is always similar - It is all question of attitude. When I learn something new - it is almost like "I get turned on" - I can feel the endorphins creating a sense of joy and well-being. I do not sense the forgetfullness a senior is "supposed" to experience - per self-appointed experts. Communicating with Thai people in their native tongue gives me satisfaction - although I am still struggling to make myself understood.

My biggest regrets:

1) The poor quality of Schools I have encountered in Bangkok - in general

2) Lack of professional guidance to design your own systematic tuition program

My biggest hurdles in studying by myself - แรงจูงใจ

Edited November 30, 2012 by Parvis

[leosmith]

Parvis rules!

The posters here who think I'm somehow trying to find excuses to shirk school are hysterical

Are you surprised? How many threads have you started trying to get people to tell you it's ok to quit? How many posts have you written? You're living in Thailand, and "debating" whether or not to learn the language. You're a senior and "debating" whether learning a language is good for you. If it's really that hard for you to figure out, well, don't worry about it. I hear the world is coming to an end 3 weeks anyway - would you like a link to the article?

[tingtongtourist]

Parvis rules!

The posters here who think I'm somehow trying to find excuses to shirk school are hysterical

Are you surprised? How many threads have you started trying to get people to tell you it's ok to quit? How many posts have you written? You're living in Thailand, and "debating" whether or not to learn the language. You're a senior and "debating" whether learning a language is good for you. If it's really that hard for you to figure out, well, don't worry about it. I hear the world is coming to an end 3 weeks anyway - would you like a link to the article?

if this is true then thai immigrations and visa run company will be very quite in next few weeks

[AbeSurd]

Are you surprised? How many threads have you started trying to get people to tell you it's ok to quit? How many posts have you written? You're living in Thailand, and "debating" whether or not to learn the language.

No, I'm not debating whether or not to learn the language. It should be clear from my OP that over the last 5-6 years I've already spent a lot of time of time studying it.

I've written more posts on ThaiVisa than you. What's that got to do with the price of fish?

You're a senior and "debating" whether learning a language is good for you.

No, I'm not, I'm a senior questioning whether, unfortunately - perhaps even bizarrely - it conceivably could be starting to be BAD for me. And I'm doing so publicly because I'm trying to find out whether anyone else has experienced any similar physical symptoms.

You're already down as a 'no' vote. Thanks for voting.

[sms747]

Guys in their 60's torturing themselves to try and learn seems a waste of time. I gave up as never will get the hang of tones and I always found Thai's do not as a whole try to understand you or appreciate trying to speak Thai. Sometimes the mrs insists on the bus that I try to get the conductor to understand me-she says I sound fine but the conductor always looks at her for confirmation as if they do not believe me. Had to repeat the destination 3 times a couple of weeks ago which resulted in a row when the Thai bloke in front turned around and berated me for not speaking clearly. Another time I could not get a conductor to understand Sukhumvit soi hok and had to hold up 6 fingers, and this after learning on and off since 1994, why bother?

Edited December 1, 2012 by sms747

[eeeya]

Life wasnt meant to be easy.

[tingtongtourist]

IMO, strange how people think age stop them from learning, and crazy if they seriously think that to learn will do them any harm.

Is no more than fitness or work out for for the brain, can only make you stronger with exercise for sure?

If you believe in your own self that you can do, then you will achieve if you stick to it.

If you keep thinking impossible then of course it will be impossible. Actually I learn to be opposite to this from my mother who is incredibly negative

thinking person about everything.

But I do wonder about the older guys who get frustration and give up because thai cant understand them, i think sometimes might be mainly folk from the US feel like this?

The older guys might have trouble to speak in the thai tone because of their regional USA accents?

I do notice when some Americans say mai (no) the sound comes out like sounding mae (mother)

Also like the previous poster on the bus talking about saying 6 hok, sometimes i hear my American buddy, his accent saying this sound to me like he is saying hawk or hark, so i can see how thais have trouble to hear.

No-ones fault just that his southern accent be so strong is hard to adapt it to Thai tones.

A Thai teacher did tell me that to learn any Asian language you must first be like the parrot, not just learn the words and say them but actually mimic the same sound as the native speaker speak.

maybe some guys are to proud to mimic any Thai voice and/or might feel a bit silly speaking with those tones?

[sms747]

Learning Thai is boring and a waste of time, useless outside this liitle country. If you can get by without don;t bother

[tombkk]

The article is a waste of time reading it. The brain does not turn to black mud when you continue learning, learning anything. It develops additional wiring, in order to stay within the terminology of the author.

However, not everybody can learn all there is. Some people can learn languages easily (I conduct business in four languages, including Thai, and speak some other languages well enough to get by with), while others don't have that talent. They will likely have other talents, though - I am useless at carpentry, for example.

Instead of the author saying "I just cannot learn more than two languages" he tries to make it sound like a scientific concept why nobody can. A very questionable approach.

[ebonykap]

I learning Thai 2 year already and my English not affect nothing!

I am 58 years old and find learning Thai language very difficult and stressful. I am very tired after lessons and often wind up with a headache after class (and sometimes during class!). But i believe to live in a foreign country you should have some command of their language. I can speak a little, read a litle and write a little, and i intend to continue because of my motivation and desire to communicate with whoever i want and whenever necessary. I also find it enjoyable. This is, of course, only my opinion of which everybody is entitled to.

[NoshowJones]

It's difficult, of course. But well worth it. It doesn't affect your ability to use your own language, or do anything negative other than make you tired, so I don't see the problem.

I think maybe it depends on what language you are learning. I have been in Thailand for 7 years, and I believe that if Thai was similar to French or Spanish, I would be fluent by now. When you are learning Thai, apart from the tones, if you know the Thai words for individual English words, you will find it very hard to make them into a sentence in Thai, where in French or Spanish sentences, you will make them OK, but will have to memorize them.

[isawasnake]

I find it hard to want to understand what they are saying. I see so many simple things like directions being discussed for 5 minutes... isn't it just "a right turn, then make a left on ratchada and it's on the right"? I mean, what on earth is going on there? I'd rather not know, as it would probably annoy me even more. I also feel I don't want to understand the language of a people that don't follow advice from obviously superior sources (no, not talking about my advice). What could some of the retorts be? I am glad I can't understand.... can you imagine..... "Thai scientists say they ignored NASA's advice because is what not the right day of the month to begin a study". Shutting my ears to this stuff just seems much better.

[meadish_sweetball]

The posters here who think I'm somehow trying to find excuses to shirk school are hysterical

So my thanks to those who, at least in this matter, appear to be giving me the benefit of the doubt

For those being unduly harsh about the article, if you read the last of the comments at the bottom, you'll see the writer talks about being 'satirical'. In his last point he says "culture and language go hand in hand. You haven't just taken steps to learn the language, you've also begun to change your culture." Satirical or not, I think there's a lot of truth to that. Especially if, like me, you're also trying to live in the country whose language you're trying to learn.

In my time I've studied other subjects very hard. And the work I was involved in until relatively recently could be extremely demanding mentally. However, learning Thai - for me at any rate - is proving to be something else altogether. It's starting to mess with my head in ways that I'm not sure I'm comfortable with. Of course I'm older now, and grimly aware we do start to fall apart!

No one here - so far - really shares these feelings. Fair enough. That's all part of what I was trying to find out by creating this thread. Thank you for contributing.

I think the symptoms you describe are part of the prolonged adjustment to a new culture coupled with the general fatigue of intense studying, perhaps more so than language learning per se. The fact that our brains shut down their faculties after heavy exposure to a new language is natural. I had that when I first went abroad to an English speaking country. I was technically fluent and could express myself and discuss most things in English, but actual exposure to the culture where a language is spoken, is something else. And I am not talking about exposure in the sense of being a fly on the wall which is most farang people's experience of Thailand, but rather actively striving to understand and become a part of the new culture, which requires learning the language. Yes - it IS tiring because it is tough exercise for your mind. Physical exercise is also exhausting, but in both cases, the benefits far outweigh the discomfort. Keep at it and it gets easier.Apart from cramming, make sure you apply the language to situations and subjects you enjoy. That's what I've always done. If there's no physical Thai community in your vicinity that shares an interest you have, find it online instead.

[puipuitom]

When you know two languages, you are bi-lingual

When you know three languages, you are triple-lingual

When you know four languages, you are a genious

when you know one language, you are British ( or American)

And.. People who speak two languages are 'better at multi-tasking and less likely to develop Alzheimer's'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1358234/People-speak-languages-better-multi-tasking-likely-develop-Alzheimers.html#ixzz2Dsp57rQG

I can speak Dutch ( native), English ( your funny accent, where do you come from ?), German ( like a Kraut), enough French, littlebit Italian and Spanish, some Russian ( all before 18 ) and learned 200 words Hebrew in the plane from Amsterdam to Tel Aviv, when I was 19, travelling to a girl.

When I was 45 I tried to learn Thai, for business. Impossible.

I am now 60... I gave up.

Sorry, maybe the "storage in the top" does not absorb anymore.

[pinfold]

Guys in their 60's torturing themselves to try and learn seems a waste of time. I gave up as never will get the hang of tones and I always found Thai's do not as a whole try to understand you or appreciate trying to speak Thai. Sometimes the mrs insists on the bus that I try to get the conductor to understand me-she says I sound fine but the conductor always looks at her for confirmation as if they do not believe me. Had to repeat the destination 3 times a couple of weeks ago which resulted in a row when the Thai bloke in front turned around and berated me for not speaking clearly. Another time I could not get a conductor to understand Sukhumvit soi hok and had to hold up 6 fingers, and this after learning on and off since 1994, why bother?

Yes good reply. I too studied Thai,got quite good at it and it is a difficult language to pick up for sure. Then realisation took hold,why the hell am I doing it?Do not need it,everyone speaks English around me, the Thai GF hates speaking Thai,Im not likely to need Thai as Im not likely to ever live in the sticks and the rush to learn English as soon as the ASEAN thing develops,well will the Thai language be dead by then?.

[isawasnake]

The English language seems to make you think. I'm afraid if I learn Thai I wont think anymore, and just yammer on and on unknowingly.