'lotto Monk' Has Become The Rule Not An Exception

[Rafterman]

Religion and money have gone hand in hand since men created gods for fear of dying .

[fasteddie]

Read more carefully, he isn't saying that Thai Buddhism is more Animist, but the Thai people are, and in my experience he has a point

What is Thai Buddhism if not what Thai people do when they say they're being Buddhist? So my question remains. What is this essential Buddhism Thais fall short of? Does Thai Buddhism involve beliefs and practices which differ from the kind of stuff you'll hear on your Gil Fronsdal podcasts from IMC? Well, to the extent that you can talk about Thai Buddhism in that kind of undifferentiated sense (i.e. not very far at all), yes. But that doesn't mean it's less Buddhist; that's a crazy leap to make.

we are witnessing Thai society falling apart.

You may be but I'm not. Sure, consumerism - or what it really is, capitalism - brings with it many awful things but it also brings lots of great things: The spread and deepening of democratic ideas and individual liberty, rising gender equality, mass education, etc. etc. It's easy to look back 20 or 50 or 100 ideas and think everything was wonderful but a life of grinding poverty, slavery and premature death doesn't have an awful lot going for it, even from a spiritual perspective.

'' a life of grinding poverty, slavery and premature death doesn't have an awful lot going for it''

that's capitalism!

[lifeisadream]

For those of us who have learned how to meditate from the real forest monks, our gratitude is immeasurable. Without this practice I would continue on as I have always continued on…confused and cynical. If you have the opportunity to get a taste of the quiet mind you should give it a try. That is the big opportunity Thailand provides for us Westerners. But one has to get it right from the right teachers.

The monks that count their money instead of their blessings are to be avoided.

[osiboy]

this story is pure thainess at its best

[Rafterman]

All knowing, all powerful , all controlling gods, but somehow just cannot handle money and always needs yours.

[MEL1]

I can't quite grasp the disrepect shown to both Buddhism, and monks, shown in this thread.

Either the majority of farang have little understanding of it, and despite their stay here for how many years have continued to develop little understanding of it, or they are of two other repertoires; just plain ignorance, or enjoy taking the piss out of something that is totally beyond their miniscule brain ability and comprehension!

Poor show, and ignorant show, really.

-mel.

[Rafterman]

MEL1 : in the kingdom of the blind, the one eyed man is king . Religion is bullshit .

[asiawatcher]

GIve the guy the time to figure out what he wants to do. Everyone is on his case, he has it, he can take his time. If he is a true follower of Buddhist faith then he will do something appropriate. If the money module kicks in and follows that path, good luck to him but I doubt it. I have seen a similar amount given away in Pattaya from a Muay Thai master who lives very simply. Give it time and see what he comes up with.

[AA1]

Yesterday I wrote the below on a topicabout Buddhism on T.V. - Isaan Forum.

Today on reading this one maybe it would have been more appropriate to have put it here so bad luck I am copying here as well!!

"Posted 2012-11-30 17:06:50

The principles of Buddhism are very sensible BUT what worries me is that becoming a monk in Thailand seems to need no training and yet is MUCH more profitable than being a farmer here.

Strange this or is it?

About a month ago a friend of mine was waiting in an Isaan bank when a layperson came in with a bag and was followed by a monk. When they reached the till, the monk handed the layman a bank book and then sat down. When the transaction had been done, the layman handed the bank book to the monk who looked at the book and then put it in his pocket and they left. It could, of course, have been the Temple bank book! but it set me thinging 'what is the ruling over Buddhist monks and money?"

I later Googled this and although they all seemed to agree, I found a very well written article which I printed off.

The Buddhist teacher starts of by saying:-

"This is the second article in the series about the Vinaya, the body of monastic rules and traditions binding on every Buddhist monk and nun. In this article I will be concerned with the controversial issue of a monk's or nun's dealing with money".

Rather than bore you with whole article, I will just quote the following:-

"Buddhist monks (bhikkhus) and nuns (bhikkhunis) are not allowed to accept money for themselves. Nor are they allowed to tell a trustworthy layperson to receive it on their behalf and keep it for them (e.g. keeping a personal bank account). Such practicies are explicitly forbidden in the 18th. rule of the section of Vinaya called Nissaggiya Pacittiya.

Nor may monks or nuns buy or sell things for themselves using money. This is prohibited by the 19th. rule in the Nissaggiya Pacittiya."

What does happen to all those white envelopes that laypeople spend their time handing over to monks?

Where do they all get their mobile phones from? Generous manufacturers?

Why does one see so many monks walking round Panthip Plaza studying all the latest computers? Something to pass away the day?

Although I have met a number of monks who I have much respect for, BUT, please (metaphorically!) shoot me down if you wish, I regret that I feel a great deal of monks are doing the job as an easy cop out and an easy way without any swet to make money.

I regret that in Thailand I have become rather sceptical about Buddhism here but then I have to pinch myself and remember that 'This Is Thailand!!

p.s.

When I started answering this topic, I was going to finish by refering back to my 1st. sentence by saying that monks make money & farmers don't but I am going to revise it and saying:-

Thai Buddhist monks should make zero equity

whereas

Farang so called Farmers do make negative equity solely useful as ATMs!"

Edited December 2, 2012 by AA1

[vijer]

You can come to my temple everyday, leave a small token of appreciation (I can suggest an amount if you like), then I will toss some water on you, chant a little, then tell you that you will be rich. Go in happiness, don't question life, let all mangy dogs live and prosper so they may spread garbage and be a traffic hazard, and please come back again (with more money).

I also offer an internet service, no need to leave your home, just use your credit card or bank account to transfer you monetary appreciation.

For an extra fee, err ahh token, I will even tell you that someday you will hit the lottery.

[Noistar]

Read more carefully, he isn't saying that Thai Buddhism is more Animist, but the Thai people are, and in my experience he has a point

What is Thai Buddhism if not what Thai people do when they say they're being Buddhist? So my question remains. What is this essential Buddhism Thais fall short of? Does Thai Buddhism involve beliefs and practices which differ from the kind of stuff you'll hear on your Gil Fronsdal podcasts from IMC? Well, to the extent that you can talk about Thai Buddhism in that kind of undifferentiated sense (i.e. not very far at all), yes. But that doesn't mean it's less Buddhist; that's a crazy leap to make.

we are witnessing Thai society falling apart.

You may be but I'm not. Sure, consumerism - or what it really is, capitalism - brings with it many awful things but it also brings lots of great things: The spread and deepening of democratic ideas and individual liberty, rising gender equality, mass education, etc. etc. It's easy to look back 20 or 50 or 100 ideas and think everything was wonderful but a life of grinding poverty, slavery and premature death doesn't have an awful lot going for it, even from a spiritual perspective.

Thailand may be many things, but bear in mind the corruption in the country is widely accepted and supported. Democracy, IMHO, is not deepening, it is merely a convenient tool for implementing an ideology. When the supporters of the government become educated and poverty is behind them, then your views may become a reality.

The Buddhism I witness both in Chiang Mai city and Chiang Mai province is not philosophical, but it is a belief and faith in people's daily lives. Like Loi Krathong, the banishment of bad luck and the achievement of good luck, is all that people want - (i do not say that lightly). Their offerings to temples and individual monks are sincere, in a belief that Buddhism will help them achieve a happy life.

[thaigolfer]

Living in Thailand 10 years + and speaking the language fairly well it is my opinion that there is no Buddhism in Thailand at all.

What I see and feel is commercial Buddhism based on money making. I see young monks having 2-3 Iphones. I see entrance fees to more and more temples. I have been told it is more and more of an attitude that people being convicted or at risk of being convicted, escape the sentence by becoming monk. Not expect the best Buddhist things from them.

Once I flew Lufthansa First class between Frankfurt and BKK. In front of me a Thai monk. We chatted away and he told me he always flew first. Last year in Bali, Nusa Dua at one of the best 5 star hotels I witnessed 5 Thai monks ordering an unbelievable amount of food dishes. They left almost all food untouched. Last year also I stayed at a hotel in Tak. The owner of the hotel was a monk and he was there to pay the salary to the staff while I had breakfast. I have pictures of all events.

To me, Thai Buddhism is a bit as the Thai smile. It is everywhere and all around but never real.

[MAJIC]

They say religion everywhere has been abused or exploited

Personally I think it is the fact that the exponents of religions are the abusers of its followers, gullible folk conned into sponsoring a leader who promises all in return for those sponsors letting the leader live in luxury.

Invent and chat to an imaginary friend is all you need to found your own belief you'll soon find some gullible fools to join you.

It was always said that talking to imaginary friends was a sign of babyhood, senility or madness.

How come that view doesn't prevail with all religious beliefs ?.

Karl Marx got it about right

• 
  

• 
  Religious distress is at the same time the exp

ression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.
Karl Marx, Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right

Usually all one gets from the above is “Religion is the opium of the people“ (with no ellipses to indicate that something has been removed). Sometimes “Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature“ is included. If you compare these with the full quotation, it’s clear that a great deal more is being said than what most people are aware of.

In the above quotation Marx is saying that religion’s purpose is to create illusory fantasies for the poor. Economic realities prevent them from finding true happiness in this life, so religion tells them that this is OK because they will find true happiness in the next life. Although this is a criticism of religion, Marx is not without sympathy: people are in distress and religion provides solace, just as people who are physically injured receive relief from opiate-based drugs.

There one has it. Religion is no different to a course of medication which in many cases leads to full blown religious mania style drug addiction

Unfortunately Karl Marx never applied the same ideals to his own brand of controlling the people, through the polititical Party of Communist / Marxism, talk about the Black Pot calling the Pan smutty.The reality of it was ,Religeon was taking away potential followers of his Doctrine!

[hellodolly]

every religion is about money, power and control. Bad apples are everywhere.

Buddhism, Christian and others when they not stick to the original teachings have always distorted the truth. It's mainly political concepts.

It took me decades to find and decipher the Gospel of Thomas, which was banned by religious staff. It's the most revealing one and not far from the teaching of Lord Buddha.

The truth will set you free!

OPT IN FOR FREEDOM WITH RESPONSIBILITY

... link to that can be obtained by message ...

There is also a gospel of Judas.

But it didn't fit in with what the church wanted people to believe.

Actually there are many books the church left out because they did not conform to the teachings of the time.

[tawonsri]

For those of us who have learned how to meditate from the real forest monks, our gratitude is immeasurable. Without this practice I would continue on as I have always continued on…confused and cynical. If you have the opportunity to get a taste of the quiet mind you should give it a try. That is the big opportunity Thailand provides for us Westerners. But one has to get it right from the right teachers.

The monks that count their money instead of their blessings are to be avoided.

You are telling the truth when you say a real modest forest monk will be a good teacher - I completely agree.

Avoid all those monks and specially abbots that only counting money and wish always to build the next bigger temple, the next biggest building. Sorry, but what we see in the "normal" "buddhist" religion in modern Thailand is only very limited in connection to Buddha's teachings. It's only abount money, comfort and more money. The abbott in our Temple is travelling to Europe 1 or 2 a month - but the seating in Eceonomy class didn't satisify him. Now he gonna fly Business Class - far over 100'000 THB every flight, 1-2 times a month.

It's really only about money. Like in every church - a true pity.

But if you are lucky to ever meet a real forest monk, this is an impression lasting for life!

[hellodolly]

After winning the first prize, the seller and some other people started asking the abbot to pay them money. He said they also accused him of not paying for the lottery tickets. As the plot thickened, almost a dozen people lodged complaints with the police demanding the monk pay a combined total of more than Bt400,000.

This is modern Thailand.

This is just one example of the difficulty the world is facing now, the rise of greed as formerly poor societies become wealthier and come into daily contact with consumerism.

It quickly destroys the old values, certainly within one generation, leaving people with nothing but a desire to get rich and if by chance they do, they don't know what to do next.

The hollowing out of the old culture and substituting trash culture, materialism and greed is the reason why we are witnessing Thai society falling apart.

Materialism and greed.

Both brought to Thailand by westerners. It has always been here but was not the guiding light of the majority of the people. Some of the women are constantly trying to look whiter like a westerner. Many come because it is cheaper than back home and then try to make it like back home. No respect for the Thai culture.

My understanding of Buddhism is it is a way of life or guiding principals to try to live by. It is not a religion God has no part in it. They may pray to Buddha but that is not what Buddhism teaches them. Or for that matter Buddha wanted.

[khaowong1]

"They say Buddhism and fanaticism have never crossed paths and we, therefore, should feel lucky about that." I think this myth needs to be scrutinized. Zen Buddhists took an active role in promotion the Japanese nationalist/militarist stance leading up to WWII, also bear in mind the 4th President of Sri Lanka was assassinated by a Buddhist monk because he being a Christian did not was not fit to uphold the belief that Sri Lanka was the birthplace of Theravada Buddhism was integral part of the Nationalist identity. Violence and murder has been a defining shaper of the cultures of Burma, Thailand and Cambodia with their constant internecine warfare and destruction and looting of one another's temples. China also has long history of rivalry between Buddhism which was viewed as a foreign religion and Confucism/Taoism where they mutually destroyed each others monasteries and religious centers…… and then there is the issue of the Rohingyas. The jewel may be in the lotus but it is covered by the mud of Nationalistic smugness, and self righteous indignation- genocide seems to be as acceptable to Buddhist societies as any other.

That's a very good point. Particularly the Zen influence on the Japanese military machine of WW2 was very extreme. In fact, Zen was part of warrior training in Japan for centuries, although only the concentration / selflessness / awareness elements and not the whole compassion aspect. In fact, Bodhidharma is credited not only with founding the Zen Buddhist tradition but also inventing kung <deleted>. You also make an excellent point on the recent military struggle in Sri Lanka, which in general was promoted by many Buddhist "monks" as a way to "protect" the Buddhist traditions of the nation. Certainly not as extreme as the Crusades and such, but Buddhism has in some cases promoted violence just like every other religion.

"What is Thai Buddhism if not what Thai people do when they say they're being Buddhist? So my question remains. What is this essential Buddhism Thais fall short of?"

In Thailand, animism and Hinduism are all enmeshed with actual Buddhism and have been forever... The "essential Buddhism" is what the Buddha taught - the Pali Canon seems to be a solid representation of what the Buddha actually said. He didn't say anything about making wishes, wearing 'magic' amulets, or making offerings to spirit shrines, etc.; if anything, he said that such practices are not part of the Buddhist path. Take Loy Krathong: it's considered a "Buddhist holiday" in Thailand but it's mainly about appeasing the Hindu river goddess, Phra Mae Kongkha. The Buddha didn't say such gods and spirits don't exist, but they had nothing to do with his teachings and were not to be entertained if following the Buddhist path. The Buddha even said that he didn't want any images made of him because he didn't want people to worship him like a god as that would be a sidetrack from his teachings. This is why the first Buddha statues didn't show up until a good 600 years after his death. But today in Thailand, Buddha images are sold along with various charms and amulets that millions believe will bring good luck or protection or riches or whatever. People give money and think that alone will land them a fortunate rebirth. If you read the Buddha's teachings and believe in them, you would not put any stock in such practices that are so hugely popular today - in fact it often that seems those aspects are what 'Thai Buddhism' has effectively become. It's also worth mentioning that when monks like Ajahn Mun revived Buddhism in Thailand during the last century, they entirely rejected all of that extra "magic animist hocus pocus" stuff mentioned above. They wandered the forest, had only the most basic possessions, kept all of the precepts in earnest, did not accept money, and worked chiefly on reaching enlightenment through meditation and providing guidance for the lay people. Now that was what the Buddha did.

Thailand has a complex religious tradition, it's just a mixed bag. It's no different than in Tibet where tantra and no shortage of mysticism are intertwined with the Buddhist tradition. So I agree that Thailand is no "less Buddhist" than anything else. But it's also faulty, I think, to say that "Thai Buddhism is whatever Thai people say it is." It's fair to say that "Thai religion is whatever Thais say it is", but by including "Buddhism", that implies the Buddha's teachings, so there's some responsibility to be true to what the Buddha actually taught. And, yes, in the case of a monk purchasing lotto tickets and then hoarding the money, that's starkly against what the Buddha taught.

I find the initial article to be a good one - I know many Thais who attempt to practice as the Buddha taught, and they're fed up with the money and magic frenzy of Buddhism in Thailand. It really has strayed tremendously from how the Buddha actually laid it out.

Very good response... thank you.. Not many could have said it better. There are some temples around who do follow the Buddha's teachings. Mostly in the North and Northeast. Ajahn Chah's temples are a good example, along with Luang Ta Maha Boowa, and Buddhasa Bhikkhu who wouldn't allow Buddha statues on his temple grounds. Having said that, almost every monk I know buys lotto tickets or have them given to them. I think it's a Thai culture thing. Most of them that do get lotto tickets claim if they win, they would take care of their families and their temple. In which order, who knows. All the Buddhist temples I have been to in the six years I have been a Theravada monk, have some if not a lot of their native cultures inbedded in them. On the occasions I have have said something along the lines of, I not sure this is really what the Buddha wanted, I've been told that this is the way that's it's done in their temples. So now I pretty much keep my mouth shut. It's pretty difficult to keep all 227 precepts of the Vinaya when your located in a temple that's inside a larger city and not out there in the forest like Ajahn Chah's or Luang Ta Maha Boowa's temples. Not that that should be an excuse for falling short, it's just the way it is. The Buddha was a very rich man when he gave it all up to become the Buddha, as was many, many of his most devout followers. Many large and beautiful temples were built for him and his followers to stay in along with an abudance of food, clothing and other goods to make their lives a little easier. Should he have rejected them? I don't know, I'm not the Buddha. Would things be different if he were alive and teaching today? I don't know, you could say the same concerning Jesus. All I know is, that you try to do the best you can with the times and places you are. If that isn't good enough for some people, if some people have a different opinion on how Buddhist monks should live their life, your entitled to your opinion. But to give an opinion about anything, and since where talking about Buddhism here, shave the head, don the yellow robes for a couple of months, then give us your opinion. It would give a lot more weight to the subject.

[tawonsri]

Living in Thailand 10 years + and speaking the language fairly well it is my opinion that there is no Buddhism in Thailand at all.

What I see and feel is commercial Buddhism based on money making. I see young monks having 2-3 Iphones. I see entrance fees to more and more temples. I have been told it is more and more of an attitude that people being convicted or at risk of being convicted, escape the sentence by becoming monk. Not expect the best Buddhist things from them.

Once I flew Lufthansa First class between Frankfurt and BKK. In front of me a Thai monk. We chatted away and he told me he always flew first. Last year in Bali, Nusa Dua at one of the best 5 star hotels I witnessed 5 Thai monks ordering an unbelievable amount of food dishes. They left almost all food untouched. Last year also I stayed at a hotel in Tak. The owner of the hotel was a monk and he was there to pay the salary to the staff while I had breakfast. I have pictures of all events.

To me, Thai Buddhism is a bit as the Thai smile. It is everywhere and all around but never real.

Nothing to be added - there is no real Buddhism in mainstream Thailand ... it's never real.

With the exception of some hidden forest monks that you might find upcountry - but there aren't many left. Life of a city monk is more sabbai and much more comfortable (as you showed)!

[khaowong1]

Yesterday I wrote the below on a topicabout Buddhism on T.V. - Isaan Forum.

Today on reading this one maybe it would have been more appropriate to have put it here so bad luck I am copying here as well!!

"Posted 2012-11-30 17:06:50

The principles of Buddhism are very sensible BUT what worries me is that becoming a monk in Thailand seems to need no training and yet is MUCH more profitable than being a farmer here.

Strange this or is it?

About a month ago a friend of mine was waiting in an Isaan bank when a layperson came in with a bag and was followed by a monk. When they reached the till, the monk handed the layman a bank book and then sat down. When the transaction had been done, the layman handed the bank book to the monk who looked at the book and then put it in his pocket and they left. It could, of course, have been the Temple bank book! but it set me thinging 'what is the ruling over Buddhist monks and money?"

I later Googled this and although they all seemed to agree, I found a very well written article which I printed off.

The Buddhist teacher starts of by saying:-

"This is the second article in the series about the Vinaya, the body of monastic rules and traditions binding on every Buddhist monk and nun. In this article I will be concerned with the controversial issue of a monk's or nun's dealing with money".

Rather than bore you with whole article, I will just quote the following:-

"Buddhist monks (bhikkhus) and nuns (bhikkhunis) are not allowed to accept money for themselves. Nor are they allowed to tell a trustworthy layperson to receive it on their behalf and keep it for them (e.g. keeping a personal bank account). Such practicies are explicitly forbidden in the 18th. rule of the section of Vinaya called Nissaggiya Pacittiya.

Nor may monks or nuns buy or sell things for themselves using money. This is prohibited by the 19th. rule in the Nissaggiya Pacittiya."

What does happen to all those white envelopes that laypeople spend their time handing over to monks?

Where do they all get their mobile phones from? Generous manufacturers?

Why does one see so many monks walking round Panthip Plaza studying all the latest computers? Something to pass away the day?

Although I have met a number of monks who I have much respect for, BUT, please (metaphorically!) shoot me down if you wish, I regret that I feel a great deal of monks are doing the job as an easy cop out and an easy way without any swet to make money.

I regret that in Thailand I have become rather sceptical about Buddhism here but then I have to pinch myself and remember that 'This Is Thailand!!

p.s.

When I started answering this topic, I was going to finish by refering back to my 1st. sentence by saying that monks make money & farmers don't but I am going to revise it and saying:-

Thai Buddhist monks should make zero equity

whereas

Farang so called Farmers do make negative equity solely useful as ATMs!"

Good article.. thank you...

[hellodolly]

Read more carefully, he isn't saying that Thai Buddhism is more Animist, but the Thai people are, and in my experience he has a point

What is Thai Buddhism if not what Thai people do when they say they're being Buddhist? So my question remains. What is this essential Buddhism Thais fall short of? Does Thai Buddhism involve beliefs and practices which differ from the kind of stuff you'll hear on your Gil Fronsdal podcasts from IMC? Well, to the extent that you can talk about Thai Buddhism in that kind of undifferentiated sense (i.e. not very far at all), yes. But that doesn't mean it's less Buddhist; that's a crazy leap to make.

we are witnessing Thai society falling apart.

You may be but I'm not. Sure, consumerism - or what it really is, capitalism - brings with it many awful things but it also brings lots of great things: The spread and deepening of democratic ideas and individual liberty, rising gender equality, mass education, etc. etc. It's easy to look back 20 or 50 or 100 ideas and think everything was wonderful but a life of grinding poverty, slavery and premature death doesn't have an awful lot going for it, even from a spiritual perspective.

You were not doing to badly until you came up with "mass education"

Then you really went down hill.

Did it ever occur to you that with all these things you perceive based on your upbringing in a more affluent society are OK with them. It is you who come charging in on your big white horse to tell them they have nothing that puts them on the road to material things. There is a good chance that they were far happier than you until you showed up in your shining armor on a big white horse to tell them they were all wrong. They had nothing they were miserable.

[hellodolly]

"They say Buddhism and fanaticism have never crossed paths and we, therefore, should feel lucky about that." I think this myth needs to be scrutinized. Zen Buddhists took an active role in promotion the Japanese nationalist/militarist stance leading up to WWII, also bear in mind the 4th President of Sri Lanka was assassinated by a Buddhist monk because he being a Christian did not was not fit to uphold the belief that Sri Lanka was the birthplace of Theravada Buddhism was integral part of the Nationalist identity. Violence and murder has been a defining shaper of the cultures of Burma, Thailand and Cambodia with their constant internecine warfare and destruction and looting of one another's temples. China also has long history of rivalry between Buddhism which was viewed as a foreign religion and Confucism/Taoism where they mutually destroyed each others monasteries and religious centers…… and then there is the issue of the Rohingyas. The jewel may be in the lotus but it is covered by the mud of Nationalistic smugness, and self righteous indignation- genocide seems to be as acceptable to Buddhist societies as any other.

That's a very good point. Particularly the Zen influence on the Japanese military machine of WW2 was very extreme. In fact, Zen was part of warrior training in Japan for centuries, although only the concentration / selflessness / awareness elements and not the whole compassion aspect. In fact, Bodhidharma is credited not only with founding the Zen Buddhist tradition but also inventing kung <deleted>. You also make an excellent point on the recent military struggle in Sri Lanka, which in general was promoted by many Buddhist "monks" as a way to "protect" the Buddhist traditions of the nation. Certainly not as extreme as the Crusades and such, but Buddhism has in some cases promoted violence just like every other religion.

"What is Thai Buddhism if not what Thai people do when they say they're being Buddhist? So my question remains. What is this essential Buddhism Thais fall short of?"

In Thailand, animism and Hinduism are all enmeshed with actual Buddhism and have been forever... The "essential Buddhism" is what the Buddha taught - the Pali Canon seems to be a solid representation of what the Buddha actually said. He didn't say anything about making wishes, wearing 'magic' amulets, or making offerings to spirit shrines, etc.; if anything, he said that such practices are not part of the Buddhist path. Take Loy Krathong: it's considered a "Buddhist holiday" in Thailand but it's mainly about appeasing the Hindu river goddess, Phra Mae Kongkha. The Buddha didn't say such gods and spirits don't exist, but they had nothing to do with his teachings and were not to be entertained if following the Buddhist path. The Buddha even said that he didn't want any images made of him because he didn't want people to worship him like a god as that would be a sidetrack from his teachings. This is why the first Buddha statues didn't show up until a good 600 years after his death. But today in Thailand, Buddha images are sold along with various charms and amulets that millions believe will bring good luck or protection or riches or whatever. People give money and think that alone will land them a fortunate rebirth. If you read the Buddha's teachings and believe in them, you would not put any stock in such practices that are so hugely popular today - in fact it often that seems those aspects are what 'Thai Buddhism' has effectively become. It's also worth mentioning that when monks like Ajahn Mun revived Buddhism in Thailand during the last century, they entirely rejected all of that extra "magic animist hocus pocus" stuff mentioned above. They wandered the forest, had only the most basic possessions, kept all of the precepts in earnest, did not accept money, and worked chiefly on reaching enlightenment through meditation and providing guidance for the lay people. Now that was what the Buddha did.

Thailand has a complex religious tradition, it's just a mixed bag. It's no different than in Tibet where tantra and no shortage of mysticism are intertwined with the Buddhist tradition. So I agree that Thailand is no "less Buddhist" than anything else. But it's also faulty, I think, to say that "Thai Buddhism is whatever Thai people say it is." It's fair to say that "Thai religion is whatever Thais say it is", but by including "Buddhism", that implies the Buddha's teachings, so there's some responsibility to be true to what the Buddha actually taught. And, yes, in the case of a monk purchasing lotto tickets and then hoarding the money, that's starkly against what the Buddha taught.

I find the initial article to be a good one - I know many Thais who attempt to practice as the Buddha taught, and they're fed up with the money and magic frenzy of Buddhism in Thailand. It really has strayed tremendously from how the Buddha actually laid it out.

Very good response... thank you.. Not many could have said it better. There are some temples around who do follow the Buddha's teachings. Mostly in the North and Northeast. Ajahn Chah's temples are a good example, along with Luang Ta Maha Boowa, and Buddhasa Bhikkhu who wouldn't allow Buddha statues on his temple grounds. Having said that, almost every monk I know buys lotto tickets or have them given to them. I think it's a Thai culture thing. Most of them that do get lotto tickets claim if they win, they would take care of their families and their temple. In which order, who knows. All the Buddhist temples I have been to in the six years I have been a Theravada monk, have some if not a lot of their native cultures inbedded in them. On the occasions I have have said something along the lines of, I not sure this is really what the Buddha wanted, I've been told that this is the way that's it's done in their temples. So now I pretty much keep my mouth shut. It's pretty difficult to keep all 227 precepts of the Vinaya when your located in a temple that's inside a larger city and not out there in the forest like Ajahn Chah's or Luang Ta Maha Boowa's temples. Not that that should be an excuse for falling short, it's just the way it is. The Buddha was a very rich man when he gave it all up to become the Buddha, as was many, many of his most devout followers. Many large and beautiful temples were built for him and his followers to stay in along with an abudance of food, clothing and other goods to make their lives a little easier. Should he have rejected them? I don't know, I'm not the Buddha. Would things be different if he were alive and teaching today? I don't know, you could say the same concerning Jesus. All I know is, that you try to do the best you can with the times and places you are. If that isn't good enough for some people, if some people have a different opinion on how Buddhist monks should live their life, your entitled to your opinion. But to give an opinion about anything, and since where talking about Buddhism here, shave the head, don the yellow robes for a couple of months, then give us your opinion. It would give a lot more weight to the subject.

I really liked this part

" If that isn't good enough for some people, if some people have a different opinion on how Buddhist monks should live their life, your entitled to your opinion. But to give an opinion about anything, and since where talking about Buddhism here, shave the head, don the yellow robes for a couple of months, then give us your opinion. It would give a lot more weight to the subject."

[marstons]

"They say Buddhism and fanaticism have never crossed paths and we, therefore, should feel lucky about that." I think this myth needs to be scrutinized. Zen Buddhists took an active role in promotion the Japanese nationalist/militarist stance leading up to WWII, also bear in mind the 4th President of Sri Lanka was assassinated by a Buddhist monk because he being a Christian did not was not fit to uphold the belief that Sri Lanka was the birthplace of Theravada Buddhism was integral part of the Nationalist identity. Violence and murder has been a defining shaper of the cultures of Burma, Thailand and Cambodia with their constant internecine warfare and destruction and looting of one another's temples. China also has long history of rivalry between Buddhism which was viewed as a foreign religion and Confucism/Taoism where they mutually destroyed each others monasteries and religious centers…… and then there is the issue of the Rohingyas. The jewel may be in the lotus but it is covered by the mud of Nationalistic smugness, and self righteous indignation- genocide seems to be as acceptable to Buddhist societies as any other.

That's a very good point. Particularly the Zen influence on the Japanese military machine of WW2 was very extreme. In fact, Zen was part of warrior training in Japan for centuries, although only the concentration / selflessness / awareness elements and not the whole compassion aspect. In fact, Bodhidharma is credited not only with founding the Zen Buddhist tradition but also inventing kung <deleted>. You also make an excellent point on the recent military struggle in Sri Lanka, which in general was promoted by many Buddhist "monks" as a way to "protect" the Buddhist traditions of the nation. Certainly not as extreme as the Crusades and such, but Buddhism has in some cases promoted violence just like every other religion.

"What is Thai Buddhism if not what Thai people do when they say they're being Buddhist? So my question remains. What is this essential Buddhism Thais fall short of?"

In Thailand, animism and Hinduism are all enmeshed with actual Buddhism and have been forever... The "essential Buddhism" is what the Buddha taught - the Pali Canon seems to be a solid representation of what the Buddha actually said. He didn't say anything about making wishes, wearing 'magic' amulets, or making offerings to spirit shrines, etc.; if anything, he said that such practices are not part of the Buddhist path. Take Loy Krathong: it's considered a "Buddhist holiday" in Thailand but it's mainly about appeasing the Hindu river goddess, Phra Mae Kongkha. The Buddha didn't say such gods and spirits don't exist, but they had nothing to do with his teachings and were not to be entertained if following the Buddhist path. The Buddha even said that he didn't want any images made of him because he didn't want people to worship him like a god as that would be a sidetrack from his teachings. This is why the first Buddha statues didn't show up until a good 600 years after his death. But today in Thailand, Buddha images are sold along with various charms and amulets that millions believe will bring good luck or protection or riches or whatever. People give money and think that alone will land them a fortunate rebirth. If you read the Buddha's teachings and believe in them, you would not put any stock in such practices that are so hugely popular today - in fact it often that seems those aspects are what 'Thai Buddhism' has effectively become. It's also worth mentioning that when monks like Ajahn Mun revived Buddhism in Thailand during the last century, they entirely rejected all of that extra "magic animist hocus pocus" stuff mentioned above. They wandered the forest, had only the most basic possessions, kept all of the precepts in earnest, did not accept money, and worked chiefly on reaching enlightenment through meditation and providing guidance for the lay people. Now that was what the Buddha did.

Thailand has a complex religious tradition, it's just a mixed bag. It's no different than in Tibet where tantra and no shortage of mysticism are intertwined with the Buddhist tradition. So I agree that Thailand is no "less Buddhist" than anything else. But it's also faulty, I think, to say that "Thai Buddhism is whatever Thai people say it is." It's fair to say that "Thai religion is whatever Thais say it is", but by including "Buddhism", that implies the Buddha's teachings, so there's some responsibility to be true to what the Buddha actually taught. And, yes, in the case of a monk purchasing lotto tickets and then hoarding the money, that's starkly against what the Buddha taught.

I find the initial article to be a good one - I know many Thais who attempt to practice as the Buddha taught, and they're fed up with the money and magic frenzy of Buddhism in Thailand. It really has strayed tremendously from how the Buddha actually laid it out.

Very good response... thank you.. Not many could have said it better. There are some temples around who do follow the Buddha's teachings. Mostly in the North and Northeast. Ajahn Chah's temples are a good example, along with Luang Ta Maha Boowa, and Buddhasa Bhikkhu who wouldn't allow Buddha statues on his temple grounds. Having said that, almost every monk I know buys lotto tickets or have them given to them. I think it's a Thai culture thing. Most of them that do get lotto tickets claim if they win, they would take care of their families and their temple. In which order, who knows. All the Buddhist temples I have been to in the six years I have been a Theravada monk, have some if not a lot of their native cultures inbedded in them. On the occasions I have have said something along the lines of, I not sure this is really what the Buddha wanted, I've been told that this is the way that's it's done in their temples. So now I pretty much keep my mouth shut. It's pretty difficult to keep all 227 precepts of the Vinaya when your located in a temple that's inside a larger city and not out there in the forest like Ajahn Chah's or Luang Ta Maha Boowa's temples. Not that that should be an excuse for falling short, it's just the way it is. The Buddha was a very rich man when he gave it all up to become the Buddha, as was many, many of his most devout followers. Many large and beautiful temples were built for him and his followers to stay in along with an abudance of food, clothing and other goods to make their lives a little easier. Should he have rejected them? I don't know, I'm not the Buddha. Would things be different if he were alive and teaching today? I don't know, you could say the same concerning Jesus. All I know is, that you try to do the best you can with the times and places you are. If that isn't good enough for some people, if some people have a different opinion on how Buddhist monks should live their life, your entitled to your opinion. But to give an opinion about anything, and since where talking about Buddhism here, shave the head, don the yellow robes for a couple of months, then give us your opinion. It would give a lot more weight to the subject.

I really liked this part

" If that isn't good enough for some people, if some people have a different opinion on how Buddhist monks should live their life, your entitled to your opinion. But to give an opinion about anything, and since where talking about Buddhism here, shave the head, don the yellow robes for a couple of months, then give us your opinion. It would give a lot more weight to the subject."

I see dozens maybe even over a hundred prowling the streets in soi 7-8 and walking street Pattaya in the morning pressing very hard from sex trade workers in bars for cash, quite a few now who turn there backs on those who have doned on the robes and seek money donations, not the usual sunstance donations. they seem quite happy to live of the proceeds of prostitution and alchohol.

[asiawatcher]

Read more carefully, he isn't saying that Thai Buddhism is more Animist, but the Thai people are, and in my experience he has a point

What is Thai Buddhism if not what Thai people do when they say they're being Buddhist? So my question remains. What is this essential Buddhism Thais fall short of? Does Thai Buddhism involve beliefs and practices which differ from the kind of stuff you'll hear on your Gil Fronsdal podcasts from IMC? Well, to the extent that you can talk about Thai Buddhism in that kind of undifferentiated sense (i.e. not very far at all), yes. But that doesn't mean it's less Buddhist; that's a crazy leap to make.

we are witnessing Thai society falling apart.

You may be but I'm not. Sure, consumerism - or what it really is, capitalism - brings with it many awful things but it also brings lots of great things: The spread and deepening of democratic ideas and individual liberty, rising gender equality, mass education, etc. etc. It's easy to look back 20 or 50 or 100 ideas and think everything was wonderful but a life of grinding poverty, slavery and premature death doesn't have an awful lot going for it, even from a spiritual perspective.

You were not doing to badly until you came up with "mass education"

Then you really went down hill.

Did it ever occur to you that with all these things you perceive based on your upbringing in a more affluent society are OK with them. It is you who come charging in on your big white horse to tell them they have nothing that puts them on the road to material things. There is a good chance that they were far happier than you until you showed up in your shining armor on a big white horse to tell them they were all wrong. They had nothing they were miserable.

Agree, there were no schools in Thailand until around 1880 (from memory 1883) and only within the Royal Family was education introduced at that point. They had however always had very intelligent family members run Thailand and had done exceedingly well. The first public schools began in 1923. Until then the benefit to the populace was always at behest of royalty. They were never allowed to raise their heads or even look at royalty as was part of the culture, yet Thailand thrived in trade with international ministries doing their best to have Thailand as trading partners. When the people took control of the 'constitution' and became self governing, the whole place started to go down the toilet with greed and unprecedented theft and thus began the coups. Eventually property stolen from the Royal Family was returned. Buddhism was the fabric of their society and they population had always done well under the dual guidance. But then it all went pear shaped. In less than 100 years Thailand has boomed but been continually stripped of its new found wealth by those who took up power. The faith of the Thai has never been in question, following the guidance of that faith has been. I am sure Siam was a far better place as far as society is concerned prior to the knights on horseback showing the Siamese 'must' have been unhappy. Evolution? Sometimes we can ponder the way it was as being far better than now or perhaps in the future. If our Million dollar monk won a lottery then he must have used money to do so, something his faith says he does not need and should not have thus if the money belonged to his temple then rightfully, as the curator and governor of that temple, he can still squander it on more unwanted temples and trinket buddhas so the faithful can continue to believe it is all good, when there are homeless and squalor abounding in his district. It is after all, his choice.

[Noistar]

Living in Thailand 10 years + and speaking the language fairly well it is my opinion that there is no Buddhism in Thailand at all.

What I see and feel is commercial Buddhism based on money making. I see young monks having 2-3 Iphones. I see entrance fees to more and more temples. I have been told it is more and more of an attitude that people being convicted or at risk of being convicted, escape the sentence by becoming monk. Not expect the best Buddhist things from them.

Once I flew Lufthansa First class between Frankfurt and BKK. In front of me a Thai monk. We chatted away and he told me he always flew first. Last year in Bali, Nusa Dua at one of the best 5 star hotels I witnessed 5 Thai monks ordering an unbelievable amount of food dishes. They left almost all food untouched. Last year also I stayed at a hotel in Tak. The owner of the hotel was a monk and he was there to pay the salary to the staff while I had breakfast. I have pictures of all events.

To me, Thai Buddhism is a bit as the Thai smile. It is everywhere and all around but never real.

Nothing to be added - there is no real Buddhism in mainstream Thailand ... it's never real.

With the exception of some hidden forest monks that you might find upcountry - but there aren't many left. Life of a city monk is more sabbai and much more comfortable (as you showed)!

As I stated in my earlier post, the PEOPLE of Thailand should be treated differently to the Buddhist establishment.

There is Buddhism in Thailand and a sincere Buddhism at that. The trappings of the individual monks do not detract from that faith.

It took me a while to understand why offerings were made as the monk didn't seem to need the offering. Once I understood that it was the Offering, rather than its subsequent use, then the belief and faith of the people became clear. An offering 'from the heart'.

[cup-O-coffee]

Living in Thailand 10 years + and speaking the language fairly well it is my opinion that there is no Buddhism in Thailand at all.

What I see and feel is commercial Buddhism based on money making. I see young monks having 2-3 Iphones. I see entrance fees to more and more temples. I have been told it is more and more of an attitude that people being convicted or at risk of being convicted, escape the sentence by becoming monk. Not expect the best Buddhist things from them.

Once I flew Lufthansa First class between Frankfurt and BKK. In front of me a Thai monk. We chatted away and he told me he always flew first. Last year in Bali, Nusa Dua at one of the best 5 star hotels I witnessed 5 Thai monks ordering an unbelievable amount of food dishes. They left almost all food untouched. Last year also I stayed at a hotel in Tak. The owner of the hotel was a monk and he was there to pay the salary to the staff while I had breakfast. I have pictures of all events.

To me, Thai Buddhism is a bit as the Thai smile. It is everywhere and all around but never real.

Nothing to be added - there is no real Buddhism in mainstream Thailand ... it's never real.

With the exception of some hidden forest monks that you might find upcountry - but there aren't many left. Life of a city monk is more sabbai and much more comfortable (as you showed)!

As I stated in my earlier post, the PEOPLE of Thailand should be treated differently to the Buddhist establishment.

There is Buddhism in Thailand and a sincere Buddhism at that. The trappings of the individual monks do not detract from that faith.

It took me a while to understand why offerings were made as the monk didn't seem to need the offering. Once I understood that it was the Offering, rather than its subsequent use, then the belief and faith of the people became clear. An offering 'from the heart'.

In a land where individuals are so debased that taking advantage of heart offerings is seen as a cottage industry, then your view of the belief and faith of the people illustrates idiotic, superstitious blindness which brings about ineffectual, non-productive waste on a very few fat, lazy, greedy and selfish men and women.

[Noistar]

Living in Thailand 10 years + and speaking the language fairly well it is my opinion that there is no Buddhism in Thailand at all.

What I see and feel is commercial Buddhism based on money making. I see young monks having 2-3 Iphones. I see entrance fees to more and more temples. I have been told it is more and more of an attitude that people being convicted or at risk of being convicted, escape the sentence by becoming monk. Not expect the best Buddhist things from them.

Once I flew Lufthansa First class between Frankfurt and BKK. In front of me a Thai monk. We chatted away and he told me he always flew first. Last year in Bali, Nusa Dua at one of the best 5 star hotels I witnessed 5 Thai monks ordering an unbelievable amount of food dishes. They left almost all food untouched. Last year also I stayed at a hotel in Tak. The owner of the hotel was a monk and he was there to pay the salary to the staff while I had breakfast. I have pictures of all events.

To me, Thai Buddhism is a bit as the Thai smile. It is everywhere and all around but never real.

Nothing to be added - there is no real Buddhism in mainstream Thailand ... it's never real.

With the exception of some hidden forest monks that you might find upcountry - but there aren't many left. Life of a city monk is more sabbai and much more comfortable (as you showed)!

As I stated in my earlier post, the PEOPLE of Thailand should be treated differently to the Buddhist establishment.

There is Buddhism in Thailand and a sincere Buddhism at that. The trappings of the individual monks do not detract from that faith.

It took me a while to understand why offerings were made as the monk didn't seem to need the offering. Once I understood that it was the Offering, rather than its subsequent use, then the belief and faith of the people became clear. An offering 'from the heart'.

In a land where individuals are so debased that taking advantage of heart offerings is seen as a cottage industry, then your view of the belief and faith of the people illustrates idiotic, superstitious blindness which brings about ineffectual, non-productive waste on a very few fat, lazy, greedy and selfish men and women.

I think you are being harsh about a means by which the poor people here can achieve a hope of good fortune.

It's difficult for me to understand when I see a 'solution' being the involvement of a monk. But without it the people have nothing.

The people here are not thick - they have a place in society as much as anyone else. They cannot resolve their problems by a quick trip to the ATM. Please respect their faith which supports them in their daily lives.

This monk will, I believe, be dismissed as a 'bad monk'. The people's faith will not be affected.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Noistar

[Honkie]

You can come to my temple everyday, leave a small token of appreciation (I can suggest an amount if you like), then I will toss some water on you, chant a little, then tell you that you will be rich. Go in happiness, don't question life, let all mangy dogs live and prosper so they may spread garbage and be a traffic hazard, and please come back again (with more money).

I also offer an internet service, no need to leave your home, just use your credit card or bank account to transfer you monetary appreciation.

For an extra fee, err ahh token, I will even tell you that someday you will hit the lottery.

You can come to my temple everyday, leave a small token of appreciation (I can suggest an amount if you like), then I will toss some water on you, chant a little, then tell you that you will be rich. Go in happiness, don't question life, let all mangy dogs live and prosper so they may spread garbage and be a traffic hazard, and please come back again (with more money).

I also offer an internet service, no need to leave your home, just use your credit card or bank account to transfer you monetary appreciation.

For an extra fee, err ahh token, I will even tell you that someday you will hit the lottery.

will do that soon enough...so how many followers you have ? I like to do what other followers do , I am a thai sheep...

[harryfrompattaya]

Religion and money have gone hand in hand since men created gods for fear of dying .

I diff with you since he won proves he walks with Buddha. Please respect this monk as well as all Monks.

Also respect the religion you were born too

[rickdoepke]

I agree with using the Pali canon as the best source for defining what is essential to Buddhism. Now, when we do this, do we find that Buddhism requires belief in an afterlife, continued personal existence after the death of one's body (which, in this part of the world, would be thought to mean reincarnation)? I raise this question in the present context because without this, there can be no corruption in the form of selling tickets for a more favorable rebirth (as the Catholic Church sold "indulgences" in the west, helping to spark the Protestant revolution). Buddhist institutions would then have to fall back on concentrating on how to help people in this life overcome the suffering caused by not facing the basic facts of human life, including above the inevitability of death. I suggest that this is what the Buddha taught. True, one will find passages in which the man himself appears to believe in reincarnation (though he was known for addressing his remarks to his audience, in which belief in reincarnation would be widespread). I doubt that he did (after all, superstition was already being junked by intellectuals in Greece and China). But even if he did, does that make it essential to his primary teaching of relieving the kind of suffering in question? Where, in such central teachings as the Four Noble Truths, The Eightfold Path, or the Doctrine of Dependent Origination, does the afterlife come in? It seems rather that it was mixed in by those who cannot give up a desparate attachment to this life. Religious institutions often become corrupted when they enrich themselves by catering to those who cannot let go. For Buddhist institutions, this is especially unfortunate, for it utterly obscures the Buddha's basic focus on internalizing the fact of impermanence. We should hold Buddhist institutions and purported representatives accountable for their interpretations, just as in the west we should hold all those charlatan evangelists accountable for calling themselves Christian.

[edgarfriendly]

I can't quite grasp the disrepect shown to both Buddhism, and monks, shown in this thread.

Either the majority of farang have little understanding of it, and despite their stay here for how many years have continued to develop little understanding of it, or they are of two other repertoires; just plain ignorance, or enjoy taking the piss out of something that is totally beyond their miniscule brain ability and comprehension!

Poor show, and ignorant show, really.

-mel.

Or perhaps its disgust with 'monks' who are CLEARLY nothing more than charlatans in Buddhist robes...

Should we bow down to them as they are dressed correctly?

Poor, Ignorant, finger-pointing judgement from someone who should know better than to jump to the defense of liars, cheats, exploiters & abusers...

If they were real servants they would serve, rather than daily collect!!!