Traffic Growth In Chiangmai.

[Mickeem]

I think you've completely missed why there are so many cars on the road - the government wants people to drive cars.

"- the government wants people to drive buy cars."

No offense mate. Who are the higher ups making the profit on these cars, and on gasoline, and insurance, and bank interest, and... ??

Just wonderin' is all...

and... the loan defaults.. which will be coming in soon

[Loaded]

I think you've completely missed why there are so many cars on the road - the government wants people to drive cars.

"- the government wants people to drive buy cars."

No offense mate. Who are the higher ups making the profit on these cars, and on gasoline, and insurance, and bank interest, and... ??

Just wonderin' is all...

So, please enlighten me with your inside knowledge. Who are these people?

You say 'higher ups' want people to buy cars but not drive them. You then mention it's because these 'higher ups' make money from gasoline sales. You are contradicting yourself.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Loaded

[ogb]

Anyone who drives is part of the problem, whether Thai or farang, and it is hypocritical to complain about another driver being on the road unless you are prepared to get off the road too.

[bangkok blue]

"I hear that a lot, but for a relatively small town like Chiang Mai, with very diverse centers when it comes to residential areas, business areas and entertainment areas, where would you actually make a subway or monorail go?  (Not a rhetorical question, it's an interesting challenge)"

Servicing all 4 gates around the most would be a start. Heard rumours they wanna widen niman road when that new cinema/mall opens. Considering cm is the 2nd biggest city in Thailand, it is surprising it doesn't have it's own official transport network.

[cheeryble]

Well my last post in which I complained about someone's rudeness has disappeared. I did it politely and reasonably so can't imagine it was pulled.

I had also made the point that a Thai TV producer friend of mine who I ran into, when I asked about the traffic, had replied "there's an awful lot on at the moment".

Well today the roads suddenly seemd back to normal, and another Thai friend had said something about ”people going home Monday".

It looks like they have, great!

But it's a warning about what can happen if there's any increase in the number of cars.

[wigantojapan]

One of my first memories of Chang Mai is how terrible the traffic was about 25 years ago. Of course, I mostly stayed in the Thapae Gate area back then and there was not a lot going on elsewhere.

agreed the traffic in cm 25 years ago was bad ok bkk was worse but i stayed 2 days and headed for the hills.

25 years on more cars trucks than motorcycles still heading for the hills ,though tey have paved roads up there

must be heavy for the snakes as you see dead snakes a lot in the morning

me i see 2 or 3 ars when i ave to go to the local market 30 minutes motorcycle ride away

[wigantojapan]

Anyone who drives is part of the problem, whether Thai or farang, and it is hypocritical to complain about another driver being on the road unless you are prepared to get off the road too.

agreed thais and farang are totalyt lost when you say you dont have a car or motorcycle.

same with coca cola blows there little perception of civilisation

how can one survive without haha

slaves to the rythmn just popped into my head along with watching the wheels

[Slappz]

Servicing all 4 gates around the most would be a start. Heard rumours they wanna widen niman road when that new cinema/mall opens. Considering cm is the 2nd biggest city in Thailand, it is surprising it doesn't have it's own official transport network.

It's not the 2nd biggest in Thailand. 6th per Wikipedia.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Servicing all 4 gates around the most would be a start. Heard rumours they wanna widen niman road when that new cinema/mall opens. Considering cm is the 2nd biggest city in Thailand, it is surprising it doesn't have it's own official transport network.

It's not the 2nd biggest in Thailand. 6th per Wikipedia.

Which is very likely wrong, because they only count official residents (i..e those appearing on a house registration booklet, being the land owners and their family). They don't count the massive number of migrants coming to live, work or study in Chiang Mai.

A much more realistic way to gauge population size would be to look at the size/number of other infrastructure that directly relates to number of people, such as the number of supermarkets and

hypermarkets. No other town (other than BKK of course) comes close. Other ways include looking at the number of Chiang Mai registered cars, trucks and motorcycles, number of bus departures, etc.

Then, you can look at the number of people who list Chiang Mai as their current location on Facebook; of course that's heavily skewed to a particular age/income group, but the numbers for Chiang Mai are much larger than any other town besides Bangkok.

And finally there is personal observation, which is of course subjective but the difference in size is actually so large that it's immediately apparent; for example Udon is listed as very close to the official size of Chiang Mai, but if you actually go there it's plain to see that it's not even close, Chiang Mai being MUCH bigger.

Edited December 13, 2012 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Tywais]

Who is part of the census:

1.4.1 Population Coverage

1) Population in coverage:

- All Thais citizens residing in Thailand on the

Census day (September 1, 2010);

- Thais/Non-Thais who usually live in Thailand but

temporarily be outside the country on the

Census Day;

- All military servants, defenses, civil servants, and

Thai diplomats, including their families, of which

their stations were outside of Thailand.

- Non-Thais who residing in Thailand at least three

months prior to the Census Day.

2) Population not coverage:

- Non-Thai military servants, defenses, civil servants,

and diplomats, including their families, of which

their stations were inside Thailand.

- Non-Thai who live in Thailand less than three

months prior to the Census Day.

- Refugees or illegal migrants who live in the

refugee camps.

2010 Thailand Census .pdf

Chiang Mai Province is the 6th largest at 1,708,564.

Stats for top 10 most populous provinces

Chiang Mai stats breakdown

[Slappz]

Fair enough, we all know there's gonna be bias in any stastics

[OneZero]

Winnie is talking about Chiang Mai City as #2.

Tywais is talkling about Chiang Mai Province as #6.

[AnnaBanana]

Welcome to the New Asia.

While you were sleeping the little-people surpassed you in productivity.

The profiligate lifestyle you originated is about to be taken up with alacrity by Asia's billions.

Climb in the rumble-seat, this joy-ride to perdition is just beginning.

[Mapguy]

Chiang Mai first developed a "hub and spoke" transportation pattern with major spokes from the hub of Chiang Mai to Mae Rim, Mae Jo, Doi Saket, San Kamphaeng, and Hang Dong and Lampang. This is very traditional development. Then came the intersection with new ring roads, like the rims on the wheel. These aren't always really ring roads in Chiang Mai. For example, there is the Superhighway becoming Nimmenhamen at Rincome Junction with a bypass through the airport/air force base. It certainly is not strange to see development first at the hub (the old city), then outwardly along the travel corridors (spokes) and finally the around the ring roads.

The corridor that now seems to be building up faster and faster is the San Kamphaeng corridor. That definitely looks planned. The Hang Dong Road (south from the hub) seems to have been the first road for heavy development. It is now the road from hell if you are traveling south. The Mae Rim Road from Mae Rim south to the city seems absolutely packed much of the time, the town itself is a real (and dangerous) traffic choke point, and the area around Mae Rim seems to get more and more developed. If ever a town needed a bypass, it seems Mae Rim does. The Mae Jo corridor seems to be developing at a slower pace but is certainly beginning to boom, especially where the Mae Jo Road intersects with the first ring road outside the Superhighway (which is not very far away, quite close to the hub, actually). The DoI Suket road is especially busy within the two outer ring roads, and the situation can be brutal inside the Superhighway.

Economic development and population growth have moved very quickly. Some was clearly anticipated by traffic engineers even if the new roads do not completely satisfy. The Irrigation Canal road to the west has been pretty successful relieving the Hang Dong Road, but the jam ups at Huey Kaew and Suthep roads can be agony, and further hotel development has been allowed there!! Generally, perhaps university and seemingly unrestricted condo development should be blamed.

There were some major unfortunate "oversights." Basically, where the spokes meet the hub is the rub. In the city the failure to negotiate a clear passage past the airport and redevelopment of Nimmenhamen being one. Allowing Airport Plaza to be built as it is is another. The new shopping mall at the north end of Nimmenhamen at Huey Kaew seems to be a mind-boogling error in city planning. Perhaps the city planner and the developer should be made to lie down in the middle of the intersection!

"In town," of course, getting around is at odds with the desire to sustain the traditional charm of Chiang Mai. Not all of Chiang Mai is charming, of course, but this is a valid concern. Large modern changes such as trolley lines and subways might make some contractors very rich, but are they appropriate for a town that is centuries old, even if located outside the old walls?

Songtaos, tuk tuks, and (fairly recently) taxis have basically taken the place of the disappearing samlor (three-wheeled bicycle cabs pedaled by old men with legs of steel). The one attempt at bus service was an unfortunate boondoggle for a few reasons, the major ones perhaps being no one could figure out where they went and when they'd show up. In addition, the buses were really too few, too large, and too expensive to operate. It would be possible to use more suitable vehicles, such as relatively small (12 passenger) enclosed electric buses.

Songtaos draw a lot of criticism: too many and heavy polluters. Don't know about the number being too many, but the diesel pollution is terrible. But, in my view, songtaos are a very efficient, flexible and inexpensive form of travel (and that includes the fixed routes going out of town. (I hope the new fixed routes in town work, but doubt they will.) Songtaos are also a source of gainful employment. Perhaps reducing the number can be left to market forces, but why not demand a change (over time) in fuel? What about hybrid or electrical engines? Yes, diesel engines are improving, but they still are very heavy polluters, especially when not maintained.

Do you think it is possible to stop the insistence upon door-to-door automobile traffic? I doubt it, but it might be significantly reduced by various methods, such as creating different transportation zones. Perhaps the old city within the moat ought first to be considered with peripheral parking except for residences and deliveries (which would have restricted hours). Driving into the city from the "suburbs" would require restrictions and conveniences, such as peripheral parking. This works quite well in some cities. In the city itself, residents might be made to prove they have an off-road parking place. That is done, I believe, in Tokyo. Or what about something as simple as more one-way streets? Look at the lanes off Nimmenhamen, for example.

There are many more useful tactics in the traffic engineers' kit than those suggested above. The short answer to Chiang Mai's traffic problems is that there is no simple elegant solution that fits all situations, but rampant development, population growth (including the burgeoning university community), and economic development continue apace, exaserbating the situation --- and Chiang Mai seems to be losing its charm as a special place.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Winnie is talking about Chiang Mai City as #2.

Tywais is talkling about Chiang Mai Province as #6.

In the provincial stat, yes, but the other is the interesting one. It lists people in the 'Municipal Area' of Chiang Mai, with a whopping 947,906 people. So now the question becomes what municipal area actually means, because 948 K people or so feels a bit on the high side.

Looking at the PDF (relevant info is in the Appendix) it looks like CHiang Mai is bigger than all cities that are traditionally mentioned in lists of contenders (Udon, Khon Kaen, Khorat, Had Yai), however there are a couple cities in the Bangkok area that have a few more people, places like Samut Prakan and Chonburi. Of those I'd say only Chonburi counts as an actual contender (because I'd count Samut Prakan as being part of the greater Bangkok area), but you got to wonder if the number for Chonburi (1,158,491) isn't the combined total of Chonburi town and Pattaya town (which is also very big by itself).

I get the feeling that the number for 'municipal area' is all municipal areas of a province combined; otherwise the number for Songkhla (where Had Yai is the major center) wouldn't go up to 800K people.

Edited December 14, 2012 by WinnieTheKhwai

[CMHomeboy78]

Chiang Mai first developed a "hub and spoke" transportation pattern with major spokes from the hub of Chiang Mai to Mae Rim, Mae Jo, Doi Saket, San Kamphaeng, and Hang Dong and Lampang. This is very traditional development. Then came the intersection with new ring roads, like the rims on the wheel. These aren't always really ring roads in Chiang Mai. For example, there is the Superhighway becoming Nimmenhamen at Rincome Junction with a bypass through the airport/air force base. It certainly is not strange to see development first at the hub (the old city), then outwardly along the travel corridors (spokes) and finally the around the ring roads.

The corridor that now seems to be building up faster and faster is the San Kamphaeng corridor. That definitely looks planned. The Hang Dong Road (south from the hub) seems to have been the first road for heavy development. It is now the road from hell if you are traveling south. The Mae Rim Road from Mae Rim south to the city seems absolutely packed much of the time, the town itself is a real (and dangerous) traffic choke point, and the area around Mae Rim seems to get more and more developed. If ever a town needed a bypass, it seems Mae Rim does. The Mae Jo corridor seems to be developing at a slower pace but is certainly beginning to boom, especially where the Mae Jo Road intersects with the first ring road outside the Superhighway (which is not very far away, quite close to the hub, actually). The DoI Suket road is especially busy within the two outer ring roads, and the situation can be brutal inside the Superhighway.

Economic development and population growth have moved very quickly. Some was clearly anticipated by traffic engineers even if the new roads do not completely satisfy. The Irrigation Canal road to the west has been pretty successful relieving the Hang Dong Road, but the jam ups at Huey Kaew and Suthep roads can be agony, and further hotel development has been allowed there!! Generally, perhaps university and seemingly unrestricted condo development should be blamed.

There were some major unfortunate "oversights." Basically, where the spokes meet the hub is the rub. In the city the failure to negotiate a clear passage past the airport and redevelopment of Nimmenhamen being one. Allowing Airport Plaza to be built as it is is another. The new shopping mall at the north end of Nimmenhamen at Huey Kaew seems to be a mind-boogling error in city planning. Perhaps the city planner and the developer should be made to lie down in the middle of the intersection!

"In town," of course, getting around is at odds with the desire to sustain the traditional charm of Chiang Mai. Not all of Chiang Mai is charming, of course, but this is a valid concern. Large modern changes such as trolley lines and subways might make some contractors very rich, but are they appropriate for a town that is centuries old, even if located outside the old walls?

Songtaos, tuk tuks, and (fairly recently) taxis have basically taken the place of the disappearing samlor (three-wheeled bicycle cabs pedaled by old men with legs of steel). The one attempt at bus service was an unfortunate boondoggle for a few reasons, the major ones perhaps being no one could figure out where they went and when they'd show up. In addition, the buses were really too few, too large, and too expensive to operate. It would be possible to use more suitable vehicles, such as relatively small (12 passenger) enclosed electric buses.

Songtaos draw a lot of criticism: too many and heavy polluters. Don't know about the number being too many, but the diesel pollution is terrible. But, in my view, songtaos are a very efficient, flexible and inexpensive form of travel (and that includes the fixed routes going out of town. (I hope the new fixed routes in town work, but doubt they will.) Songtaos are also a source of gainful employment. Perhaps reducing the number can be left to market forces, but why not demand a change (over time) in fuel? What about hybrid or electrical engines? Yes, diesel engines are improving, but they still are very heavy polluters, especially when not maintained.

Do you think it is possible to stop the insistence upon door-to-door automobile traffic? I doubt it, but it might be significantly reduced by various methods, such as creating different transportation zones. Perhaps the old city within the moat ought first to be considered with peripheral parking except for residences and deliveries (which would have restricted hours). Driving into the city from the "suburbs" would require restrictions and conveniences, such as peripheral parking. This works quite well in some cities. In the city itself, residents might be made to prove they have an off-road parking place. That is done, I believe, in Tokyo. Or what about something as simple as more one-way streets? Look at the lanes off Nimmenhamen, for example.

There are many more useful tactics in the traffic engineers' kit than those suggested above. The short answer to Chiang Mai's traffic problems is that there is no simple elegant solution that fits all situations, but rampant development, population growth (including the burgeoning university community), and economic development continue apace, exaserbating the situation --- and Chiang Mai seems to be losing its charm as a special place.

This is a good example of the kind of verbose analysis so beloved of farangs and the type of Asians that look to them as role models.

The real solution to the problem could be summed-up in two words "fewer cars".

[CMNightRider]

Chiang Mai first developed a "hub and spoke" transportation pattern with major spokes from the hub of Chiang Mai to Mae Rim, Mae Jo, Doi Saket, San Kamphaeng, and Hang Dong and Lampang. This is very traditional development. Then came the intersection with new ring roads, like the rims on the wheel. These aren't always really ring roads in Chiang Mai. For example, there is the Superhighway becoming Nimmenhamen at Rincome Junction with a bypass through the airport/air force base. It certainly is not strange to see development first at the hub (the old city), then outwardly along the travel corridors (spokes) and finally the around the ring roads.

The corridor that now seems to be building up faster and faster is the San Kamphaeng corridor. That definitely looks planned. The Hang Dong Road (south from the hub) seems to have been the first road for heavy development. It is now the road from hell if you are traveling south. The Mae Rim Road from Mae Rim south to the city seems absolutely packed much of the time, the town itself is a real (and dangerous) traffic choke point, and the area around Mae Rim seems to get more and more developed. If ever a town needed a bypass, it seems Mae Rim does. The Mae Jo corridor seems to be developing at a slower pace but is certainly beginning to boom, especially where the Mae Jo Road intersects with the first ring road outside the Superhighway (which is not very far away, quite close to the hub, actually). The DoI Suket road is especially busy within the two outer ring roads, and the situation can be brutal inside the Superhighway.

Economic development and population growth have moved very quickly. Some was clearly anticipated by traffic engineers even if the new roads do not completely satisfy. The Irrigation Canal road to the west has been pretty successful relieving the Hang Dong Road, but the jam ups at Huey Kaew and Suthep roads can be agony, and further hotel development has been allowed there!! Generally, perhaps university and seemingly unrestricted condo development should be blamed.

There were some major unfortunate "oversights." Basically, where the spokes meet the hub is the rub. In the city the failure to negotiate a clear passage past the airport and redevelopment of Nimmenhamen being one. Allowing Airport Plaza to be built as it is is another. The new shopping mall at the north end of Nimmenhamen at Huey Kaew seems to be a mind-boogling error in city planning. Perhaps the city planner and the developer should be made to lie down in the middle of the intersection!

"In town," of course, getting around is at odds with the desire to sustain the traditional charm of Chiang Mai. Not all of Chiang Mai is charming, of course, but this is a valid concern. Large modern changes such as trolley lines and subways might make some contractors very rich, but are they appropriate for a town that is centuries old, even if located outside the old walls?

Songtaos, tuk tuks, and (fairly recently) taxis have basically taken the place of the disappearing samlor (three-wheeled bicycle cabs pedaled by old men with legs of steel). The one attempt at bus service was an unfortunate boondoggle for a few reasons, the major ones perhaps being no one could figure out where they went and when they'd show up. In addition, the buses were really too few, too large, and too expensive to operate. It would be possible to use more suitable vehicles, such as relatively small (12 passenger) enclosed electric buses.

Songtaos draw a lot of criticism: too many and heavy polluters. Don't know about the number being too many, but the diesel pollution is terrible. But, in my view, songtaos are a very efficient, flexible and inexpensive form of travel (and that includes the fixed routes going out of town. (I hope the new fixed routes in town work, but doubt they will.) Songtaos are also a source of gainful employment. Perhaps reducing the number can be left to market forces, but why not demand a change (over time) in fuel? What about hybrid or electrical engines? Yes, diesel engines are improving, but they still are very heavy polluters, especially when not maintained.

Do you think it is possible to stop the insistence upon door-to-door automobile traffic? I doubt it, but it might be significantly reduced by various methods, such as creating different transportation zones. Perhaps the old city within the moat ought first to be considered with peripheral parking except for residences and deliveries (which would have restricted hours). Driving into the city from the "suburbs" would require restrictions and conveniences, such as peripheral parking. This works quite well in some cities. In the city itself, residents might be made to prove they have an off-road parking place. That is done, I believe, in Tokyo. Or what about something as simple as more one-way streets? Look at the lanes off Nimmenhamen, for example.

There are many more useful tactics in the traffic engineers' kit than those suggested above. The short answer to Chiang Mai's traffic problems is that there is no simple elegant solution that fits all situations, but rampant development, population growth (including the burgeoning university community), and economic development continue apace, exaserbating the situation --- and Chiang Mai seems to be losing its charm as a special place.

This is a good example of the kind of verbose analysis so beloved of farangs and the type of Asians that look to them as role models.

The real solution to the problem could be summed-up in two words "fewer cars".

Traffic engineers? If the people who designed Chiang Mai's road system were hung for being "traffic engineers" they would die innocent men.

[cheeryble]

]is a good example of the kind of verbose analysis so beloved of farangs and the type of Asians that look to them as role models.

The real solution to the problem could be summed-up in two words "fewer cars".

I liked the verbose analysis, great overview.

Also agree w Mapguy about .songtaos.....they really are user friendly, and I generally find songtao drivers polite if not excellent drivers.

That black exhaust is from dirty air filters or more likely the fuel metering and injection requiring service. It does not require a major engine overhaul and I'm sure we'd all like to see it clamped down on.

ps Mapguy regarding your complaint about Nimman I'm sure I remember that the buildings there are set back for reasons of widening........though perhaps it's as haphazard and onstacle-ridden as the pavements there which would have stopped the Red Army in it's tracks.

Edited December 15, 2012 by cheeryble

[OneZero]

Mapguy, good discussion of your views on this timely subject. Such exchange of information & intelligent viewpoints is what tv forums should be about. So, keep up your well intended efforts to inform, and disregard CMHomeboy78's unjustified criticism. Apparently CMHomeboy78 feels that someone is forcing him to read everything on these threads. Or, perhaps he's just having a bad day.

[MESmith]

"fewer cars" is a wish, not a solution that's going to happen

[onthedarkside]

One post flaming another member removed.

[hellodolly]

Just out of curiosity. I was wondering if it was not for the number of Foreigners and the money they bring into Chiang Mai would there be a problem?

I do not feel that when the city was laid out it was done with the idea that Chiang Mai was going to be filled with Foreigners who have availability to more money in a month than many of them do in 6 months.

As I pointed out in an earlier post if they could put in a decent rapid transit system how many Foreigners would be willing to get out of their air conditioned car and use it.

[mamborobert]

Just out of curiosity. I was wondering if it was not for the number of Foreigners and the money they bring into Chiang Mai would there be a problem?

I do not feel that when the city was laid out it was done with the idea that Chiang Mai was going to be filled with Foreigners who have availability to more money in a month than many of them do in 6 months.

As I pointed out in an earlier post if they could put in a decent rapid transit system how many Foreigners would be willing to get out of their air conditioned car and use it.

I would have thought not one iota.

As far as I can see there are many more Farang that use motorbikes anyway as a means of practicality if not choice..

Aspects of long term and short term government policy have affected car use. Long term changes such as reduction in birth rate (which is to be admired) has lead to the wealth being spread across a smaller base. Improvements in access to health care. The country is doing well economically. Raising the wage rates, low interest rates, 100 000 baht back for first time car buyers, lots of local models to choose from, Chiang Mai itself being a relatively affluent town with an aspirational university student population.

To me the ring road concept works ok. The issue is more with the spokes going out from the centre, and being that the centre is a a few centuries old, and geographical limitations of mountains one one side river and low plain on other, short of demolishing the heart of CM not sure what can be done, beyond the decentralsing (satellite markets/shopping centres etc) that is already being done.

Hindisight is a beautiful thing but to attribute current situation to Farang car ownership has as much validity of blaming the city planners of seven centuries ago for lack fo foresight.

[hellodolly]

Just out of curiosity. I was wondering if it was not for the number of Foreigners and the money they bring into Chiang Mai would there be a problem?

I do not feel that when the city was laid out it was done with the idea that Chiang Mai was going to be filled with Foreigners who have availability to more money in a month than many of them do in 6 months.

As I pointed out in an earlier post if they could put in a decent rapid transit system how many Foreigners would be willing to get out of their air conditioned car and use it.

I would have thought not one iota.

As far as I can see there are many more Farang that use motorbikes anyway as a means of practicality if not choice..

Aspects of long term and short term government policy have affected car use. Long term changes such as reduction in birth rate (which is to be admired) has lead to the wealth being spread across a smaller base. Improvements in access to health care. The country is doing well economically. Raising the wage rates, low interest rates, 100 000 baht back for first time car buyers, lots of local models to choose from, Chiang Mai itself being a relatively affluent town with an aspirational university student population.

To me the ring road concept works ok. The issue is more with the spokes going out from the centre, and being that the centre is a a few centuries old, and geographical limitations of mountains one one side river and low plain on other, short of demolishing the heart of CM not sure what can be done, beyond the decentralsing (satellite markets/shopping centres etc) that is already being done.

Hindisight is a beautiful thing but to attribute current situation to Farang car ownership has as much validity of blaming the city planners of seven centuries ago for lack fo foresight.

You overlooked the bit about the money they have brought in to the community. Those motor bikes they ride are not free. Nor is the gas or oil for them. Do you really believe there would be an airporrt mall with out them much less more western style malls on the drawing board or all ready in progress. You are taking a very narrow view of the over all picture.

I believe the tourist industry would always be here in Chiang Mai. But they would not be waiting months for the car they want to come in. There are many Thais here driving cars they could never afford if it wasn't for the expat population and the money they spend here.

[mamborobert]

Just out of curiosity. I was wondering if it was not for the number of Foreigners and the money they bring into Chiang Mai would there be a problem?

I do not feel that when the city was laid out it was done with the idea that Chiang Mai was going to be filled with Foreigners who have availability to more money in a month than many of them do in 6 months.

As I pointed out in an earlier post if they could put in a decent rapid transit system how many Foreigners would be willing to get out of their air conditioned car and use it.

I would have thought not one iota.

As far as I can see there are many more Farang that use motorbikes anyway as a means of practicality if not choice..

Aspects of long term and short term government policy have affected car use. Long term changes such as reduction in birth rate (which is to be admired) has lead to the wealth being spread across a smaller base. Improvements in access to health care. The country is doing well economically. Raising the wage rates, low interest rates, 100 000 baht back for first time car buyers, lots of local models to choose from, Chiang Mai itself being a relatively affluent town with an aspirational university student population.

To me the ring road concept works ok. The issue is more with the spokes going out from the centre, and being that the centre is a a few centuries old, and geographical limitations of mountains one one side river and low plain on other, short of demolishing the heart of CM not sure what can be done, beyond the decentralsing (satellite markets/shopping centres etc) that is already being done.

Hindisight is a beautiful thing but to attribute current situation to Farang car ownership has as much validity of blaming the city planners of seven centuries ago for lack fo foresight.

You overlooked the bit about the money they have brought in to the community. Those motor bikes they ride are not free. Nor is the gas or oil for them. Do you really believe there would be an airporrt mall with out them much less more western style malls on the drawing board or all ready in progress. You are taking a very narrow view of the over all picture.

I believe the tourist industry would always be here in Chiang Mai. But they would not be waiting months for the car they want to come in. There are many Thais here driving cars they could never afford if it wasn't for the expat population and the money they spend here.

We will have to agree to disagree.....Airport and KSK are chockers with Thai buyers, and the new malls being built are not for the lads at Veerachai court.

Not all Farangs are rich, and not all Thais are poor. Some Thais are asset rich and hence have access to easy and low credit at banks or other institutions.

I see a lot more Thais with new cars, phones, motorbikes etc. Robinsons/Central to me has far more Thai shoppers than Farang and doubly so for the remaining stores at airport and KSK.

[Mapguy]

I don't follow the sense of foreigners being marked as the problem. Increasing prosperity in a materialistic culture would perhaps be more accurate, but I don't blame that on "Western capitalism" either, just natural human acquisitiveness, wanting to be warmer when it is cold or cooler when it is hot, keeping food fresh, getting somewhere without sucking up the dust of the wagon in front on the road and so on.

[Dante99]

The Mae Rim Road from Mae Rim south to the city seems absolutely packed much of the time,

I drive that road often and at different times of day and very very rarely find it anywhere near "absolutely packed". Holiday late afternoons can be busy with people returning to the city from points north but otherwise it is generally okay.

[hellodolly]

I don't follow the sense of foreigners being marked as the problem. Increasing prosperity in a materialistic culture would perhaps be more accurate, but I don't blame that on "Western capitalism" either, just natural human acquisitiveness, wanting to be warmer when it is cold or cooler when it is hot, keeping food fresh, getting somewhere without sucking up the dust of the wagon in front on the road and so on.

Perhaps I put it in the wrong way. What you say is true, What I am saying is that if it wasn't for the foreigners the problem we have today would arise with out us but it would be a minimum of 20 years before it did arise.

Believe it or not we as ex pats bring in a tremendous amount of money. The ex pat on a retirement visa brings in more money in a month than a lot of Thais make in a year. (that is about to change 1st of the month) There are ex pats on other types of visa's bringing in even more than the minimum retiree of 65,000 baht a month. Also there are other ex pats on work visas making less like the average English teacher who from the best of my understanding gets between 20,000 and 30,000 baht a month and I am sure others not doing that well. But they are all bringing and spending more than most of the natives do or could afford to with out there the ex pat money. I am not considering a tourist in my figures just people who really live here.

As I say I agree with your reasoning but it is 20 years early and some of it is based on western thinking.

Edited December 16, 2012 by hellodolly

[jonwilly]

I was talking to the owner of the Centre of the Universe swimming pool.

He tells me that Government/Ampur officials have been around all local places that have Accommodation Rooms, asking on numbers and potencial availability.

They state that up to 80,000 folk may attend the New Convention Centre and are now concerned on where they might stay.

john

[hml367]

I don't follow the sense of foreigners being marked as the problem. Increasing prosperity in a materialistic culture would perhaps be more accurate, but I don't blame that on "Western capitalism" either, just natural human acquisitiveness, wanting to be warmer when it is cold or cooler when it is hot, keeping food fresh, getting somewhere without sucking up the dust of the wagon in front on the road and so on.

Perhaps I put it in the wrong way. What you say is true, What I am saying is that if it wasn't for the foreigners the problem we have today would arise with out us but it would be a minimum of 20 years before it did arise.

Believe it or not we as ex pats bring in a tremendous amount of money. The ex pat on a retirement visa brings in more money in a month than a lot of Thais make in a year. (that is about to change 1st of the month) There are ex pats on other types of visa's bringing in even more than the minimum retiree of 65,000 baht a month. Also there are other ex pats on work visas making less like the average English teacher who from the best of my understanding gets between 20,000 and 30,000 baht a month and I am sure others not doing that well. But they are all bringing and spending more than most of the natives do or could afford to with out there the ex pat money. I am not considering a tourist in my figures just people who really live here.

As I say I agree with your reasoning but it is 20 years early and some of it is based on western thinking.

Where are you getting the information to make these statements? If you are just assuming these things, I think you are wrong.

MSPain