Traffic Growth In Chiangmai.

[hellodolly]

I don't follow the sense of foreigners being marked as the problem. Increasing prosperity in a materialistic culture would perhaps be more accurate, but I don't blame that on "Western capitalism" either, just natural human acquisitiveness, wanting to be warmer when it is cold or cooler when it is hot, keeping food fresh, getting somewhere without sucking up the dust of the wagon in front on the road and so on.

Perhaps I put it in the wrong way. What you say is true, What I am saying is that if it wasn't for the foreigners the problem we have today would arise with out us but it would be a minimum of 20 years before it did arise.

Believe it or not we as ex pats bring in a tremendous amount of money. The ex pat on a retirement visa brings in more money in a month than a lot of Thais make in a year. (that is about to change 1st of the month) There are ex pats on other types of visa's bringing in even more than the minimum retiree of 65,000 baht a month. Also there are other ex pats on work visas making less like the average English teacher who from the best of my understanding gets between 20,000 and 30,000 baht a month and I am sure others not doing that well. But they are all bringing and spending more than most of the natives do or could afford to with out there the ex pat money. I am not considering a tourist in my figures just people who really live here.

As I say I agree with your reasoning but it is 20 years early and some of it is based on western thinking.

Where are you getting the information to make these statements? If you are just assuming these things, I think you are wrong.

MSPain

Consider there is about 35 to 40 ex pats renewing there retirement visas every time I am in there. Each one has to guarantee 65,000 baht a month one way or another. I have talked to teachers and there wages were what I was told and as for the business I just assumed they make more money. I just assumed that some of the people who make the 15 and 30 day runs I assume they make more than the average Thai.

[cloudhopper]

I just arrived in Phuket a few days ago and the traffic here is incomparably worse than CM, as is the aggressive driving. Red license plates everywhere, none of those cars I saw were being driven by farangs. The entire place has become an overdeveloped shithole since I first started living here on my sail boat in '99. CM, with all its problems is a vastly better place....

[funcat]

Here is the example of one of the major problems in city planning....the intersection of 107 and 2'nd Ring Rd....if you are coming from Mae Rim side and want to turn right,there is no "bay" to pull over,just a constant angle turn and not enough width to it,so 100 meters of it can accommodate only 2,or 3 cars!....plain stupidity!

...the other problem is the "U" turns,were there is no "bays",so you just block the fast lane waiting for other cars to turn!...that's the most dangerous maneuver to do here...

[rene123]

Just judging by my own visual watching of Thai traffic I highly doubt that foreigners are the problem with too many cars. All I see are Thai drivers and the occasional farang. There's no question that the traffic is increasing, though. Chiang Mai is no longer the sleepy little city I visited in 1998.

[true blue]

I don't follow the sense of foreigners being marked as the problem. Increasing prosperity in a materialistic culture would perhaps be more accurate, but I don't blame that on "Western capitalism" either, just natural human acquisitiveness, wanting to be warmer when it is cold or cooler when it is hot, keeping food fresh, getting somewhere without sucking up the dust of the wagon in front on the road and so on.

Perhaps I put it in the wrong way. What you say is true, What I am saying is that if it wasn't for the foreigners the problem we have today would arise with out us but it would be a minimum of 20 years before it did arise.

Believe it or not we as ex pats bring in a tremendous amount of money. The ex pat on a retirement visa brings in more money in a month than a lot of Thais make in a year. (that is about to change 1st of the month) There are ex pats on other types of visa's bringing in even more than the minimum retiree of 65,000 baht a month. Also there are other ex pats on work visas making less like the average English teacher who from the best of my understanding gets between 20,000 and 30,000 baht a month and I am sure others not doing that well. But they are all bringing and spending more than most of the natives do or could afford to with out there the ex pat money. I am not considering a tourist in my figures just people who really live here.

As I say I agree with your reasoning but it is 20 years early and some of it is based on western thinking.

just because u have to justify 65k,does not mean u bring it in to los or spend it it in los.

[Mapguy]

Here is the example of one of the major problems in city planning....the intersection of 107 and 2'nd Ring Rd....if you are coming from Mae Rim side and want to turn right,there is no "bay" to pull over,just a constant angle turn and not enough width to it,so 100 meters of it can accommodate only 2,or 3 cars!....plain stupidity!

...the other problem is the "U" turns,were there is no "bays",so you just block the fast lane waiting for other cars to turn!...that's the most dangerous maneuver to do here...

Well, you are correct, up to a point. Yes, I have had to wait there, too, from time to time, but really not all that long, so far! There is a shortish bay, but the increased development in the Mae RIm corridor surpassed what the engineers expected. That's for sure.

Did you mention, or did someone else, that the U-turn bays are lacking along too many routes? That is very true, and the potential for accidents is certainly increased. Rather than be patient, too many drivers from the fast lane seem to make a last-minute dash for the slow lane. Two nasty things might happen. One, of course, is to cut off people in the slow lane. Another, which is more hazardous, is the potential for hitting a car head on that is headed the opposite direction (say, southbound) and attempting a U-turn but masked by opposing (northbound) traffic (sometimes large lorries) also attempting a U turn. It is surprising, really, that there aren't more accidents in those situations.

And the speed demons seem to feel that the town of Mae RIm is an inconvenience for which slowing down is a personal choice. There, too, it is amazing that there are not more accidents, especially given the southbound long-distance traffic used to higher speeds north of town having to navigate through town. I think I pointed out above that Mae Rim is a town sorely in need of a bypass (which, of course, will get everyone upset but a few).

All in all, is there a god-given "right" to go at any speed you wish? How much time, actually, is needed to wait a bit longer? Or you might depart for your destination up to five minutes earlier! So, I can't agree that the traffic engineers are "stupid." Driving too fast for conditions is stupid.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Mapguy

[sabaijai]

It's time the municipal or provincial authorities added a few elevated freeways, as was done in Bkk in the 80s and 90s. There is simply not enough road surface for the number of vehicles circulating in Chiang Mai these days. The problem is every time the idea is officially recommended, locals protest.

There's always Lampang

[hellodolly]

I don't follow the sense of foreigners being marked as the problem. Increasing prosperity in a materialistic culture would perhaps be more accurate, but I don't blame that on "Western capitalism" either, just natural human acquisitiveness, wanting to be warmer when it is cold or cooler when it is hot, keeping food fresh, getting somewhere without sucking up the dust of the wagon in front on the road and so on.

Perhaps I put it in the wrong way. What you say is true, What I am saying is that if it wasn't for the foreigners the problem we have today would arise with out us but it would be a minimum of 20 years before it did arise.

Believe it or not we as ex pats bring in a tremendous amount of money. The ex pat on a retirement visa brings in more money in a month than a lot of Thais make in a year. (that is about to change 1st of the month) There are ex pats on other types of visa's bringing in even more than the minimum retiree of 65,000 baht a month. Also there are other ex pats on work visas making less like the average English teacher who from the best of my understanding gets between 20,000 and 30,000 baht a month and I am sure others not doing that well. But they are all bringing and spending more than most of the natives do or could afford to with out there the ex pat money. I am not considering a tourist in my figures just people who really live here.

As I say I agree with your reasoning but it is 20 years early and some of it is based on western thinking.

just because u have to justify 65k,does not mean u bring it in to los or spend it it in los.

True but a lot of us bring in a lot more. So I would say it is a fair assumption.

Edited December 30, 2012 by hellodolly

[rene123]

The ring roads DO make the city traffic move a bit better. It's only on holidays and rush hour that it is bad. A little prior planning and you can work around it.

[funcat]

Here is the example of one of the major problems in city planning....the intersection of 107 and 2'nd Ring Rd....if you are coming from Mae Rim side and want to turn right,there is no "bay" to pull over,just a constant angle turn and not enough width to it,so 100 meters of it can accommodate only 2,or 3 cars!....plain stupidity!

...the other problem is the "U" turns,were there is no "bays",so you just block the fast lane waiting for other cars to turn!...that's the most dangerous maneuver to do here...

Well, you are correct, up to a point. Yes, I have had to wait there, too, from time to time, but really not all that long, so far! There is a shortish bay, but the increased development in the Mae RIm corridor surpassed what the engineers expected. That's for sure.

Did you mention, or did someone else, that the U-turn bays are lacking along too many routes? That is very true, and the potential for accidents is certainly increased. Rather than be patient, too many drivers from the fast lane seem to make a last-minute dash for the slow lane. Two nasty things might happen. One, of course, is to cut off people in the slow lane. Another, which is more hazardous, is the potential for hitting a car head on that is headed the opposite direction (say, southbound) and attempting a U-turn but masked by opposing (northbound) traffic (sometimes large lorries) also attempting a U turn. It is surprising, really, that there aren't more accidents in those situations.

And the speed demons seem to feel that the town of Mae RIm is an inconvenience for which slowing down is a personal choice. There, too, it is amazing that there are not more accidents, especially given the southbound long-distance traffic used to higher speeds north of town having to navigate through town. I think I pointed out above that Mae Rim is a town sorely in need of a bypass (which, of course, will get everyone upset but a few).

All in all, is there a god-given "right" to go at any speed you wish? How much time, actually, is needed to wait a bit longer? Or you might depart for your destination up to five minutes earlier! So, I can't agree that the traffic engineers are "stupid." Driving too fast for conditions is stupid.

Looks like you are familiar with this area...and maybe the photo doesn't show it enough....but it is really stupid to design an intersection this way ! Every time I'm passing by that way,I have the same thought...stupid!

BTW,I use to live very close to this place and there were accidents there almost every other day...and many dead...now they painted the lanes and put some bigger,reflective signs...but still....how many lives does it take to fix some obvious mistakes here...?!!...and those U-turns !!!

[funcat]

There is one other thing I did not mention....the markets right next to some major roads....always slowdowns and accidents....like they could not arrange parking behind(!) them...or move the dam_n market somewhere else...people who need them will always find them...just IMO

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Nimmanhemin to become one way.

I seriously doubt many motorbikes will obey.

http://www.chiangmai-mail.com/current/news.shtml#hd1

[Lancelot]

Most TV posters are from the west and owning a car is a huge deal in most western countries and we all wanted our own car back home. But we bitch about the traffic here and don't want the Thais to have cars...

Like it or not Thailand is developing and there will be more cars- and more traffic. Improved driver training and some objective traffic law enforcement would help- but I'm not holding my breath on those improvements

If traffic really gets under my skin, I'll hop on an airplance and go home (probably to more traffic)

[siamamerican]

Most TV posters are from the west and owning a car is a huge deal in most western countries and we all wanted our own car back home. But we bitch about the traffic here and don't want the Thais to have cars...

Like it or not Thailand is developing and there will be more cars- and more traffic. Improved driver training and some objective traffic law enforcement would help- but I'm not holding my breath on those improvements

If traffic really gets under my skin, I'll hop on an airplance and go home (probably to more traffic)

It's not that most of us want Thais to not own cars. We just want to be able to be mobile and not have all the noise and air pollution.. Many of us came here to enjoy the laid back atmosphere and at the same time being able to have a fun night out.

Yes we can leave and I will but it is not that simple. I am heavily invested in Thailand with two residences. In hindsight these purchases were a mistake. I just couldn't grasp at the time Thailand would evolve into the hectic country it is today.

If I could snap my fingers and both my houses were magically sold at slight losses, I would be gone next month. Many places in SE Asia, S America, and central Asia that are not hectic as Thailand. Will these other countries be perfect - NO. Will I like the first country I settle in, maybe not. I do know that Thailand is no longer for me and I'm not that old (45). Time to find another Thailand. The Thailand that was exciting, interesting and tranquility was easy to find.

Some have told me to move to a small village. Tried that and was bored within 6 months. I'm not unique and many want to enjoy the outdoors but also like city life. In Thailand this has become an impossibility for me.

[hellodolly]

Most TV posters are from the west and owning a car is a huge deal in most western countries and we all wanted our own car back home. But we bitch about the traffic here and don't want the Thais to have cars...

Like it or not Thailand is developing and there will be more cars- and more traffic. Improved driver training and some objective traffic law enforcement would help- but I'm not holding my breath on those improvements

If traffic really gets under my skin, I'll hop on an airplance and go home (probably to more traffic)

I think a lot of the posters would be shocked at the traffic back home. Thailand is not the only country that has a growing mobile population .

[elektrified]

I just arrived in Phuket a few days ago and the traffic here is incomparably worse than CM, as is the aggressive driving. Red license plates everywhere, none of those cars I saw were being driven by farangs. The entire place has become an overdeveloped shithole since I first started living here on my sail boat in '99. CM, with all its problems is a vastly better place....

+1

C.M. has been getting difficult to get around recently but a recent trip to Phuket confirms what you just said. I used to love Phuket 20 years ago. What a shithole it has become. I was so happy to be back in Chiang Mai.

[elektrified]

Just out of curiosity. I was wondering if it was not for the number of Foreigners and the money they bring into Chiang Mai would there be a problem?

I do not feel that when the city was laid out it was done with the idea that Chiang Mai was going to be filled with Foreigners who have availability to more money in a month than many of them do in 6 months.

As I pointed out in an earlier post if they could put in a decent rapid transit system how many Foreigners would be willing to get out of their air conditioned car and use it.

I would have thought not one iota.

As far as I can see there are many more Farang that use motorbikes anyway as a means of practicality if not choice..

Aspects of long term and short term government policy have affected car use. Long term changes such as reduction in birth rate (which is to be admired) has lead to the wealth being spread across a smaller base. Improvements in access to health care. The country is doing well economically. Raising the wage rates, low interest rates, 100 000 baht back for first time car buyers, lots of local models to choose from, Chiang Mai itself being a relatively affluent town with an aspirational university student population.

To me the ring road concept works ok. The issue is more with the spokes going out from the centre, and being that the centre is a a few centuries old, and geographical limitations of mountains one one side river and low plain on other, short of demolishing the heart of CM not sure what can be done, beyond the decentralsing (satellite markets/shopping centres etc) that is already being done.

Hindisight is a beautiful thing but to attribute current situation to Farang car ownership has as much validity of blaming the city planners of seven centuries ago for lack fo foresight.

You overlooked the bit about the money they have brought in to the community. Those motor bikes they ride are not free. Nor is the gas or oil for them. Do you really believe there would be an airporrt mall with out them much less more western style malls on the drawing board or all ready in progress. You are taking a very narrow view of the over all picture.

I believe the tourist industry would always be here in Chiang Mai. But they would not be waiting months for the car they want to come in. There are many Thais here driving cars they could never afford if it wasn't for the expat population and the money they spend here.

We will have to agree to disagree.....Airport and KSK are chockers with Thai buyers, and the new malls being built are not for the lads at Veerachai court.

Not all Farangs are rich, and not all Thais are poor. Some Thais are asset rich and hence have access to easy and low credit at banks or other institutions.

I see a lot more Thais with new cars, phones, motorbikes etc. Robinsons/Central to me has far more Thai shoppers than Farang and doubly so for the remaining stores at airport and KSK.

I concur. I don't know what he is talking about. The farangs in the community are insignificant in the overall picture. It's the Thais with all the money driving the economy.

[searcher22]

Most TV posters are from the west and owning a car is a huge deal in most western countries and we all wanted our own car back home. But we bitch about the traffic here and don't want the Thais to have cars...

Like it or not Thailand is developing and there will be more cars- and more traffic. Improved driver training and some objective traffic law enforcement would help- but I'm not holding my breath on those improvements

If traffic really gets under my skin, I'll hop on an airplance and go home (probably to more traffic)

It's not that most of us want Thais to not own cars. We just want to be able to be mobile and not have all the noise and air pollution.. Many of us came here to enjoy the laid back atmosphere and at the same time being able to have a fun night out.

Yes we can leave and I will but it is not that simple. I am heavily invested in Thailand with two residences. In hindsight these purchases were a mistake. I just couldn't grasp at the time Thailand would evolve into the hectic country it is today.

If I could snap my fingers and both my houses were magically sold at slight losses, I would be gone next month. Many places in SE Asia, S America, and central Asia that are not hectic as Thailand. Will these other countries be perfect - NO. Will I like the first country I settle in, maybe not. I do know that Thailand is no longer for me and I'm not that old (45). Time to find another Thailand. The Thailand that was exciting, interesting and tranquility was easy to find.

Some have told me to move to a small village. Tried that and was bored within 6 months. I'm not unique and many want to enjoy the outdoors but also like city life. In Thailand this has become an impossibility for me.

I've read up extensively on other destinations for expats, such as Ecuador, Panama, Belize, and southeast Asia destinations. If you leave for another country, chances are you'll just be exchanging one set of problems for another. I've done the math. At the end of the day, for low-to-middle income people, Thailand is the best choice at this time, despite its shortcomings. Other destinations may look attractive at first, but eventually reality sets in: higher crime rates, higher living costs, complex visa requirements, land titles which can be revoked, power shortages and lack of good medical facilities. Take a look at other expat forums for other destinations and see what is being discussed. Same same.....traffic, murders, pickpocketing, corruption, visa troubles, pollution, rip-offs, etc.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Most TV posters are from the west and owning a car is a huge deal in most western countries and we all wanted our own car back home. But we bitch about the traffic here and don't want the Thais to have cars...

Like it or not Thailand is developing and there will be more cars- and more traffic. Improved driver training and some objective traffic law enforcement would help- but I'm not holding my breath on those improvements

If traffic really gets under my skin, I'll hop on an airplance and go home (probably to more traffic)

It's not that most of us want Thais to not own cars. We just want to be able to be mobile and not have all the noise and air pollution.. Many of us came here to enjoy the laid back atmosphere and at the same time being able to have a fun night out.

Yes we can leave and I will but it is not that simple. I am heavily invested in Thailand with two residences. In hindsight these purchases were a mistake. I just couldn't grasp at the time Thailand would evolve into the hectic country it is today.

If I could snap my fingers and both my houses were magically sold at slight losses, I would be gone next month. Many places in SE Asia, S America, and central Asia that are not hectic as Thailand. Will these other countries be perfect - NO. Will I like the first country I settle in, maybe not. I do know that Thailand is no longer for me and I'm not that old (45). Time to find another Thailand. The Thailand that was exciting, interesting and tranquility was easy to find.

Some have told me to move to a small village. Tried that and was bored within 6 months. I'm not unique and many want to enjoy the outdoors but also like city life. In Thailand this has become an impossibility for me.

What did we learn from this? Don't buy in Thailand. If you get a noisy neighbor etc then just move.

There are lots of nice places to live just outside CM that are close travel to the city with decent nature etc but not isolated like a village. Over time the sweet spot locations will change.

Having an apartment in or near the city and a country house is a good strategy also. Get out of town during touristy times and stay in town when you need to like for health care, shopping etc.

Just stay flexible as to your location(s)

[Ulysses G.]

If you leave for another country, chances are you'll just be exchanging one set of problems for another.

[siamamerican]

If you leave for another country, chances are you'll just be exchanging one set of problems for another.

I have never understood this thought process. I usually live where I can enjoy life. Life is too short and I won't throw in the towel and say this is as good as it gets. It's odd, I'm confident this doesn't apply to you, how people can't find happiness and only see problems.

Edited December 31, 2012 by siamamerican

[searcher22]

If you leave for another country, chances are you'll just be exchanging one set of problems for another.

I have never understood this thought process. I usually live where I can enjoy life. Life is too short and I won't throw in the towel and say this is as good as it gets. It's odd, I'm confident this doesn't apply to you, how people can't find happiness and only see problems.

I'm certainly not suggesting people throw in the towel. The flip side to the problems I noted above: Thailand has great beaches, great culture, great food, friendly people, beautiful women, warm weather, very low crime, still-bearable traffic in CM, low cost of living, great medical facilities, and increasingly, great croissants (!). That alone should be reason to celebrate.

Is there a better destination? Maybe. If someone is unhappy here, they should definitely do something about it, if they can. All I'm saying is a change of country may not necessarily bring about that happiness. Instead, seek ways to minimize the inevitable downside of living in a developing country. This may include: Rent - don't buy; don't invest more than you can walk away from; control your spending; live 6 months here and 6 months there; buy a USB Air Card; and have a B plan if things don't work out as you expected. That should help make life a whole lot simpler, and enjoyable.

Now I know there are people in this forum who follow none of these rules and have still found great joy in Thailand. To all those I say... kudos to you!

[hellodolly]

Here is an article that might help pe4ople understand the traffic we are experiancing today.

"The Transport Ministry is warning Bangkok residents to brace for what could be five years of extraordinary traffic congestion. Traffic at the Silom-Rama IV Road intersection is flowing well, particularly now with so many motorists having left Bangkok to celebrate New Year in the provinces."

[uptheos]

Here is an article that might help pe4ople understand the traffic we are experiancing today.

"The Transport Ministry is warning Bangkok residents to brace for what could be five years of extraordinary traffic congestion. Traffic at the Silom-Rama IV Road intersection is flowing well, particularly now with so many motorists having left Bangkok to celebrate New Year in the provinces."

And how many provinces does Thailand have?