Angry Families Disrupt Human Rights Day Celebration: Bangkok

[Konini]

Minor point - and I'm not defending red-shirts at all, just playing Devils' advocate. Thailand wasn't really a democracy in 2010. The PAD had closed the airport and eventually we said goodbye to the democratically elected PT (I forget, isn't that what they were called back then) government and Thailand had an unelected, therefore undemocratic government. The soldiers were, if taken literally, protecting the exact opposite of democracy. Actually, that's quite a major point . I studied politics and was taught to always look at all of the main picture rather than being emotionally involved or swayed into looking at smaller parts of the whole (explanation, incident, government period etc, whatever the 'whole' was that you were looking at).

Thailand is quite a study - certainly one that I will never get bored of. If I ever manage to understand it, which after a few years I'm doubting. It's easier to explain proportional representation to my (English) mother than explain the basics of current-day Thai politics. Trust me, I've tried both .

Minor point - but the Democrat led government were just as elected as the previous PPP (not PTP) government. Abhisit was elected by the majority of MPs just as Samak and Somchai (and Thaksin) was. The MPs that elected Abhisit were all elected by the people of Thailand.

The soldiers were protecting a legal government from a mob consisting of peaceful protesters and a well armed militia.

Sent from my HTC phone.

Point conceded . PPP was the party name I was trying to hook out of the pits of my memory. Was that election really 4 years ago?

[hellodolly]

>If the complaints described in this article of those who challenged the NHRC are valid, then it follows, that their actions are justified, when one sees this organization proceeding with 'business as usual'.

>There has been a lot of disregard and 'minimizing' in action and deed by many significant political elements, for those who suffered the loss of family members for political reasons that could have been avoided, with politically mature, negotiating actions.

>Obviously the mother of a nurse slain in a temple is most egregious in this regard.

Still haven't figured it out I see. But now you are hedging your bets.

You say IF they are valid.

If you had a feather up your rear and I had a brand new Roll's we would both be tickled pink

Fact neither one of us has them

Wonderful game the game of IF.

Fact is easily followed terrorist in area where terrorists are attempting to over throw a government and using guns to do it. Terrorist man gets killed same as other terrorists and innocent soldiers do. Difference being soldiers are doing it to protect Democracy. Terrorists are doing it for money and to help set up a dictatorship.

Failed dictator self exile sister legally becomes PM and tries to persecute the honest people who stopped her brother from becoming a dictator.

Minor point - and I'm not defending red-shirts at all, just playing Devils' advocate. Thailand wasn't really a democracy in 2010. The PAD had closed the airport and eventually we said goodbye to the democratically elected PT (I forget, isn't that what they were called back then) government and Thailand had an unelected, therefore undemocratic government. The soldiers were, if taken literally, protecting the exact opposite of democracy. Actually, that's quite a major point . I studied politics and was taught to always look at all of the main picture rather than being emotionally involved or swayed into looking at smaller parts of the whole (explanation, incident, government period etc, whatever the 'whole' was that you were looking at).

Thailand is quite a study - certainly one that I will never get bored of. If I ever manage to understand it, which after a few years I'm doubting. It's easier to explain proportional representation to my (English) mother than explain the basics of current-day Thai politics. Trust me, I've tried both .

I used the word Democracy mainly because that is what a lot of the posters call it. If you had studded politics you would have known it was not a Democracy no matter who got the most votes It is a Parliament style Government that does not require a majority of votes. Much like many countries in the world.

People get confused because they look at the States as a Democracy when in Reality it is a Republic. There has been several occasions when the person with the most votes was the loser because it is not a Democracy.

[kimamey]

for those who suffered the loss of family members for political reasons that could have been avoided, with politically mature, negotiating actions.

Uh, are you new to BKK? mature negotiating actions? The red shirts held the capital hostage for months. They rejected all negotiations offered to them and would only accept resignation of the goverment. Then, when the government finally agreed to resign, the red shirts promised to end their "demonstration".... then the red shirts broke that promise and continued holding the capital hostage. After waiting several more weeks, action was needed to restore some amount of normalcy to the capital.

You can all wring your hands about how the Thai goverment handled the situation (after trying for like 3 months for a non-violent solution!).... but I guarantee in my country (USA), if demonstrators attempted to hold an important city like Washington DC or NYC hostage in the same fashion as the reds, the police/army there would have moved in and made short work after about 3 days.

You mean like Occupy Wall Street.I think they were there for more than 3 days ?

I don't think that was on quite the same scale.

[hellodolly]

for those who suffered the loss of family members for political reasons that could have been avoided, with politically mature, negotiating actions.

Uh, are you new to BKK? mature negotiating actions? The red shirts held the capital hostage for months. They rejected all negotiations offered to them and would only accept resignation of the goverment. Then, when the government finally agreed to resign, the red shirts promised to end their "demonstration".... then the red shirts broke that promise and continued holding the capital hostage. After waiting several more weeks, action was needed to restore some amount of normalcy to the capital.

You can all wring your hands about how the Thai goverment handled the situation (after trying for like 3 months for a non-violent solution!).... but I guarantee in my country (USA), if demonstrators attempted to hold an important city like Washington DC or NYC hostage in the same fashion as the reds, the police/army there would have moved in and made short work after about 3 days.

You mean like Occupy Wall Street.I think they were there for more than 3 days ?

I don't think that was on quite the same scale.

A small point but they were unarmed not even one rocket and no body was stopped from earning a ligtament business.

[Thai at Heart]

The army was following orders not acting as some protector of democracy. Please don't cast the army as some paragon of anything good.

[nurofiend]

>If the complaints described in this article of those who challenged the NHRC are valid, then it follows, that their actions are justified, when one sees this organization proceeding with 'business as usual'.

>There has been a lot of disregard and 'minimizing' in action and deed by many significant political elements, for those who suffered the loss of family members for political reasons that could have been avoided, with politically mature, negotiating actions.

>Obviously the mother of a nurse slain in a temple is most egregious in this regard.

In a very strange coincidence, Chalerm, who has already snubbed invitations from the NHRC to attend and explain the police aggression at the Putak Siam rally, was also due to attend yesterday and snubbed the organization once again.....

you're bringing it off topic but police aggression? nah, police reaction.

Not if they arrested and beat reporters and confiscated the evidence and then lied about it....

and what anti-government news source or website did you gather this info from?

[nurofiend]

>If the complaints described in this article of those who challenged the NHRC are valid, then it follows, that their actions are justified, when one sees this organization proceeding with 'business as usual'.

>There has been a lot of disregard and 'minimizing' in action and deed by many significant political elements, for those who suffered the loss of family members for political reasons that could have been avoided, with politically mature, negotiating actions.

>Obviously the mother of a nurse slain in a temple is most egregious in this regard.

In a very strange coincidence, Chalerm, who has already snubbed invitations from the NHRC to attend and explain the police aggression at the Putak Siam rally, was also due to attend yesterday and snubbed the organization once again.....

you're bringing it off topic but police aggression? nah, police reaction.

In 2010 it was police cowardice.

did the police forces not fight with red shirts at all in 2010?

Edited December 18, 2012 by nurofiend

[yoshiwara]

If an action is justified, it not neccesarily follow that the reaction is valid. In my opinion, Thaksin is as guilty as Arisman, Nuttawut and the rest of the rabble as the army is for the deaths, probably more so, because the army were doing the job that the police refused to do. If Thaksin hadn't paid for 90% of the people to attend, they wouldn't have been there. I hope all those facing terrorism charges are convicted, there is ample video evidence to substantiate the charges. That would clear the way for Thaksin to face terrorism charges.......if he ever has the courage to return.

Spot on.

I have never understood why the rank and file red shirts do not blame the red leaders for putting them in a position to be killed and filling them with hatred from the red stage day after day. I mean it is not rocket science to understand this.

You don't bite the hand that feeds you. Here a supporting cast of the let's get Abhisit playbook with hopes of a decent payoff. Getting shot for 500 baht doesn't seem like a good deal right now. But then they thought the upping of violence was a one-sided playbook, well at least their relatives did. Thida probably telling them they are martyrs.

[whybother]

did the police forces not fight with red shirts at all in 2010?

No. They didn't.

Sent from my HTC phone.

[OzMick]

did the police forces not fight with red shirts at all in 2010?

Yes, but they were supposed to be fighting against.

[Moruya]

and what anti-government news source or website did you gather this info from?

Hands on your eyes and fingers in your ears?

[hellodolly]

The army was following orders not acting as some protector of democracy. Please don't cast the army as some paragon of anything good.

There orders were to protect democracy. Makes no difference if they were or are a paragon of good.

They did the job we do not have the dictatorship the red shirts were working for.

[muttley]

did the police forces not fight with red shirts at all in 2010?

No. They didn't.

Sent from my HTC phone.

Mmmmmm.

http://www.ifex.org/...ers_clash_kill/

http://www.dailymail...ok-airport.html

http://www.topnews.in/regions/thailand

Well maybe they did...........

[Thai at Heart]

The army was following orders not acting as some protector of democracy. Please don't cast the army as some paragon of anything good.

There orders were to protect democracy. Makes no difference if they were or are a paragon of good.

They did the job we do not have the dictatorship the red shirts were working for.

They were ordered to break up a protest.

Save democracy. Lol

[whybother]

did the police forces not fight with red shirts at all in 2010?

No. They didn't.

Sent from my HTC phone.

Mmmmmm.

http://www.ifex.org/...ers_clash_kill/

http://www.dailymail...ok-airport.html

http://www.topnews.in/regions/thailand

Well maybe they did...........

I wasn't aware that they got that involved (besides the bottom photo being army). I've never said anything about them being removed from proceedings. I thought the army were dealing with most of the stuff right from the start.

Also interesting was the Reuters article:

Reuters journalist Hiro Muramoto, 43, was carrying a video camera while covering confrontations when he was shot in the chest on 10 April. Both protesters and police were armed, so it is unclear who fired the deadly shot.

I didn't realise that it was the police that might have shot him. ... but that's a different topic.

[muttley]

No. They didn't.

Sent from my HTC phone.

Mmmmmm.

http://www.ifex.org/...ers_clash_kill/

http://www.dailymail...ok-airport.html

http://www.topnews.in/regions/thailand

Well maybe they did...........

I wasn't aware that they got that involved (besides the bottom photo being army). I've never said anything about them being removed from proceedings. I thought the army were dealing with most of the stuff right from the start.

Also interesting was the Reuters article:

Reuters journalist Hiro Muramoto, 43, was carrying a video camera while covering confrontations when he was shot in the chest on 10 April. Both protesters and police were armed, so it is unclear who fired the deadly shot.

I didn't realise that it was the police that might have shot him. ... but that's a different topic.

Here's the accompanying text for the last photo

"Anti-government protesters, in red, use barriers to push back riot policemen during a demonstration in Bangkok, Thailand, Tuesday, April 6, 2010. Thousands of anti-government demonstrators clashed with Thai police and military troops trying to prevent them from leaving from the capital's commercial district to stage protests elsewhere in Bangkok. (AP Photo/Sakchai Lalit)"

http://www.boston.co...n_thailand.html

Who am I to argue - The Boston Globe printed it as such - check for yourself at the link.

[OzMick]

Here's the accompanying text for the last photo

"Anti-government protesters, in red, use barriers to push back riot policemen during a demonstration in Bangkok, Thailand, Tuesday, April 6, 2010. Thousands of anti-government demonstrators clashed with Thai police and military troops trying to prevent them from leaving from the capital's commercial district to stage protests elsewhere in Bangkok. (AP Photo/Sakchai Lalit)"

http://www.boston.co...n_thailand.html

Who am I to argue - The Boston Globe printed it as such - check for yourself at the link.

Well it's not like an editor ever got a caption wrong, but the guys in helmets are easily seen to be wearing camouflage green uniforms.

[whybother]

Here's the accompanying text for the last photo

"Anti-government protesters, in red, use barriers to push back riot policemen during a demonstration in Bangkok, Thailand, Tuesday, April 6, 2010. Thousands of anti-government demonstrators clashed with Thai police and military troops trying to prevent them from leaving from the capital's commercial district to stage protests elsewhere in Bangkok. (AP Photo/Sakchai Lalit)"

http://www.boston.co...n_thailand.html

Who am I to argue - The Boston Globe printed it as such - check for yourself at the link.

Have a look at what they're wearing. Unless the police started wearing army fatigues ...

[Nickymaster]

did the police forces not fight with red shirts at all in 2010?

No. They didn't.

Sent from my HTC phone.

Well, they did.. a little. Just for the show. Then they vanished and left the Reds to do whatever they wanted such as Installing checkpoints at strategic locations around their site. Most check points where managed by a bunch of drunk Reds. It was a city without police. It was like a movie scene.

[muttley]

Here's the accompanying text for the last photo

"Anti-government protesters, in red, use barriers to push back riot policemen during a demonstration in Bangkok, Thailand, Tuesday, April 6, 2010. Thousands of anti-government demonstrators clashed with Thai police and military troops trying to prevent them from leaving from the capital's commercial district to stage protests elsewhere in Bangkok. (AP Photo/Sakchai Lalit)"

http://www.boston.co...n_thailand.html

Who am I to argue - The Boston Globe printed it as such - check for yourself at the link.

Have a look at what they're wearing. Unless the police started wearing army fatigues ...

OK, Does it detract from the fact that you and by extension all posters who said that the police did not do anything to stop the red shirts were / are wrong?

No it doesn't.

http://no-tie.blogsp...d-bandanas.html

Edited December 19, 2012 by muttley

[whybother]

OK, Does it detract from the fact that you and by extension all posters who said that the police did not do anything to stop the red shirts were / are wrong?

No it doesn't.

http://no-tie.blogsp...d-bandanas.html

Do police officers wear dogtags? Also, all the photos that clearly identify the police have them with "Police" in blue on their riot shields.

I thought that they didn't fight with the red shirts. I have never said that they were withdrawn because they didn't do their job, since I thought the army was handling the crowd control from the very start.

[nurofiend]

and what anti-government news source or website did you gather this info from?

Hands on your eyes and fingers in your ears?

nope, just seeing if you could provide a quality source and you've just answered.

[muttley]

OK, Does it detract from the fact that you and by extension all posters who said that the police did not do anything to stop the red shirts were / are wrong?

No it doesn't.

http://no-tie.blogsp...d-bandanas.html

Do police officers wear dogtags? Also, all the photos that clearly identify the police have them with "Police" in blue on their riot shields.

I thought that they didn't fight with the red shirts. I have never said that they were withdrawn because they didn't do their job, since I thought the army was handling the crowd control from the very start.

I'm just posting photos and the accompanying text that the photo "takers" have provided, nothing more than that - it's called having an open mind. Could it be that some police do wear camouflage and dog tags - this person seems to think so. He could be wrong, so could you. I'm pretty sure the Border Police wear camouflage.

A lot of people on here seem to think the police ran away and did nothing - they are wrong but will not admit it. No big deal. Perhaps you could help educate your fellow posters instead of deflecting away from that fact with arguments about one photo.

Out of interest, the ISA was enacted on the 11th of March (2 days before the first red shirts even arrived in Bangkok!). The Army as part of the 30,000 strong (to be increased) security forces were basically in charge of security from then on.

[OzMick]

I'm just posting photos and the accompanying text that the photo "takers" have provided, nothing more than that - it's called having an open mind. Could it be that some police do wear camouflage and dog tags - this person seems to think so. He could be wrong, so could you. I'm pretty sure the Border Police wear camouflage.

A lot of people on here seem to think the police ran away and did nothing - they are wrong but will not admit it. No big deal. Perhaps you could help educate your fellow posters instead of deflecting away from that fact with arguments about one photo.

Out of interest, the ISA was enacted on the 11th of March (2 days before the first red shirts even arrived in Bangkok!). The Army as part of the 30,000 strong (to be increased) security forces were basically in charge of security from then on.

OK, Does it detract from the fact that you and by extension all posters who said that the police did not do anything to stop the red shirts were / are wrong?

No it doesn't.

http://no-tie.blogsp...d-bandanas.html

Do police officers wear dogtags? Also, all the photos that clearly identify the police have them with "Police" in blue on their riot shields.

I thought that they didn't fight with the red shirts. I have never said that they were withdrawn because they didn't do their job, since I thought the army was handling the crowd control from the very start.

I'm just posting photos and the accompanying text that the photo "takers" have provided, nothing more than that - it's called having an open mind. Could it be that some police do wear camouflage and dog tags - this person seems to think so. He could be wrong, so could you. I'm pretty sure the Border Police wear camouflage.

A lot of people on here seem to think the police ran away and did nothing - they are wrong but will not admit it. No big deal. Perhaps you could help educate your fellow posters instead of deflecting away from that fact with arguments about one photo.

Out of interest, the ISA was enacted on the 11th of March (2 days before the first red shirts even arrived in Bangkok!). The Army as part of the 30,000 strong (to be increased) security forces were basically in charge of security from then on.

The BIB could have done much more. How hard would it have been to prevent many truck loads of used tyres reaching central BKK?

[Ricardo]

>If the complaints described in this article of those who challenged the NHRC are valid, then it follows, that their actions are justified, when one sees this organization proceeding with 'business as usual'.

>There has been a lot of disregard and 'minimizing' in action and deed by many significant political elements, for those who suffered the loss of family members for political reasons that could have been avoided, with politically mature, negotiating actions.

>Obviously the mother of a nurse slain in a temple is most egregious in this regard.

In a very strange coincidence, Chalerm, who has already snubbed invitations from the NHRC to attend and explain the police aggression at the Putak Siam rally, was also due to attend yesterday and snubbed the organization once again.....

Such a pity, they might also have asked DPM-Chalerm to name the leader of the 'Black-Shirts', so that the commission (and other investigators) might invite him/her to come to give evidence as well !

[foolforlove]

for those who suffered the loss of family members for political reasons that could have been avoided, with politically mature, negotiating actions.

Uh, are you new to BKK? mature negotiating actions? The red shirts held the capital hostage for months. They rejected all negotiations offered to them and would only accept resignation of the goverment. Then, when the government finally agreed to resign, the red shirts promised to end their "demonstration".... then the red shirts broke that promise and continued holding the capital hostage. After waiting several more weeks, action was needed to restore some amount of normalcy to the capital.

You can all wring your hands about how the Thai goverment handled the situation (after trying for like 3 months for a non-violent solution!).... but I guarantee in my country (USA), if demonstrators attempted to hold an important city like Washington DC or NYC hostage in the same fashion as the reds, the police/army there would have moved in and made short work after about 3 days.

You mean like Occupy Wall Street.I think they were there for more than 3 days ?

Yup, and Occupy didn't close the stock exchange. They didn't barricade streets for months. They were mostly inside a public park.