The Sanuk Myth

[uhuh]

"The poor people here can afford a house"

40% of Thais cannot.

"they don't bother constantly comparing themselves to the next richest person, making themselves eternally unhappy as Americans are prone to"

Thais constantly compare themselves to the Joneses and make themselves eternally unhappy by doing so. Much, much more than Americans. Almost every single action in the life of a Thai is determined by what others will think of it - and very often this just means show-off.

"As you say about the poor here, they "thought they had it good". "

He said that about people making 200,000 Baht a year. This is 5 % of the population - the rich and the well-off. The poor in Thailand make 20,000 - 50,000 Baht a year. They certainly don't think they have it good.

"We do not want Thailand to be a welfare state where our poor turn into beggars that believe they deserve "entitlements" without having to work for it."

Every farang who has an Issarn wife/gf can tell you many stories how (his wife and) her extended family turn into beggars that believe they deserve "entitlements" without having to work for it.

- You claim to be Thai - which I don't believe - but I strongly suggest you learn a bit about Thais and Thailand before posting.

Edited February 20, 2006 by uhuh

[gurkle]

"The poor people here can afford a house"

40% of Thais cannot.

"they don't bother constantly comparing themselves to the next richest person, making themselves eternally unhappy as Americans are prone to"

Thais constantly compare themselves to the Joneses and make themselves eternally unhappy by doing so. Much, much more than Americans. Almost every single action in the life of a Thai is determined by what others will think of it - and very often this just means show-off.

"As you say about the poor here, they "thought they had it good". "

He said that about people making 200,000 Baht a year. This is 5 % of the population - the rich and the well-off. The poor in Thailand make 20,000 - 50,000 Baht a year. They certainly don't think they have it good.

"We do not want Thailand to be a welfare state where our poor turn into beggars that believe they deserve "entitlements" without having to work for it."

Every farang who has an Issarn wife/gf can tell you many stories how (his wife and) her extended family turn into beggars that believe they deserve "entitlements" without having to work for it.

- You claim to be Thai - which I don't believe - but I strongly suggest you learn a bit about Thais and Thailand before posting.

To clarify, when I said "house" I meant shelter. Hence this includes the sheet-metal shacks you see all over the place. It's not the nicest place, but it gives more stability than being homeless. Rampant real estate speculation in the US prevent this possibility.

Yes, the Thais do compare themselves to others. But it generally manifests itself in far less harmless ways than in America. In America, crimes are usually committed for money, and killing spouses for their insurance policy is a unique regularity in American culture. In Thailand crimes are mostly committed for personal reasons, and stealing less often ends up in murder.

The poor are mostly content. When I say content, I mean they are less likely go to extreme amoral behavior to get ahead in life and don't constantly make themselves miserable by constantly dwelling on how rich the Joneses are. Not that they mistakenly believe they are rich. Even people in the US who make over $100,000 a year are miserable because their friends are making more.

The “beggars” here usually ask for money from other family members on an infrequent or semi-regular basis. In America, they absolutely demand handouts from the government on a regular, permanent basis. And this government money inevitably comes from complete strangers who have rightfully earned their money by working for it. I'm not sure how the Issan behave since I just don't know that many.

Since I’m an anonymous poster like everyone else here, you have a right to believe I’m not Thai. But I am.

Edited February 21, 2006 by gurkle

[Mobi]

"The poor people here can afford a house"

40% of Thais cannot.

"they don't bother constantly comparing themselves to the next richest person, making themselves eternally unhappy as Americans are prone to"

Thais constantly compare themselves to the Joneses and make themselves eternally unhappy by doing so. Much, much more than Americans. Almost every single action in the life of a Thai is determined by what others will think of it - and very often this just means show-off.

"As you say about the poor here, they "thought they had it good". "

He said that about people making 200,000 Baht a year. This is 5 % of the population - the rich and the well-off. The poor in Thailand make 20,000 - 50,000 Baht a year. They certainly don't think they have it good.

"We do not want Thailand to be a welfare state where our poor turn into beggars that believe they deserve "entitlements" without having to work for it."

Every farang who has an Issarn wife/gf can tell you many stories how (his wife and) her extended family turn into beggars that believe they deserve "entitlements" without having to work for it.

- You claim to be Thai - which I don't believe - but I strongly suggest you learn a bit about Thais and Thailand before posting.

So many of the posts in this and other forums show a huge misunderstanding and misconception of Thais and the Thai way of life. Many Farangs make their judgements on Thais based on their experiences in Bangkok, where even the poorest Thais are much better off than their up country cousins. Or, if Mr Farang does make a few brief forays to the ‘other’ part of Thailand, as a tourist, he is sheltered from the real poverty of the millions. Even Farangs with gf/wives who go to the poor Issan villages and live there for a few days or weeks, may never see the true situation. They will see happy, laughing faces and they will buy the family and friends food and drink and they think that Thais are the salt of the earth and everyone lives a happy idyllic life. The truth is that so many spend their lives in back breaking work on other peoples land for a pittance (if they are lucky enough to be employed at all), and even those who have their own land are often dispossessed and thrown out by unscrupulous money lenders or by Thaksin’s henchmen wanting to build a new mine or chemical plant or construct a dam in the wrong area, or, perversely, they are stricken by drought and unable to grow anything. My wife’s mother eked out an existence in a one-room miserable shack in a village and relied on the small amount of cash sent to her from Bangkok to live and take care of her extended family. She is illiterate, and can’t work – crippled by 50 years in the paddy fields. The family used to live in another village but was thrown out by the father’s family after he was shot dead by the local mafia. Nobody helped her, everyone ignored her – after all they all had their own problems. After we built her a decent house and put a bit of cash in her pocket, she is the most popular woman in the village. Everyone drops by to see her, and eat with her, and they are all smiling and laughing, especially when Mr ‘moneybags farang’ comes to call. ‘Keeping up with the Jones’s’? I think it is alive and well in Thailand – be it comparing the latest motorcycles by the village lads, to who has the brightest roofs, to whose daughter sends the most cash back home – to Bangkok, where absolutely everything is ‘face’ and who can outdo each other with the latest mobiles or handbags cars or whatever. I once had a driver who spent his entire month’s salary on a police walkie talkie so that he could show his mates what a clever lad he was. In spite of all the foregoing, I still firmly believe the Thais are by nature a fun loving people, and given the slightest excuse they will indeed, smile, laugh and make merry. After all, most Thais don’t have much to look forward to in life, so they might as well enjoy what little they have. Sanuk ain’t a myth – it’s real.

[boppia]

qurkle, why do you have so much anger? Are you rich or poor?

Is the fear of losing your wealth and easy living (easy expolitation) stressing you out? I would bet that you want to keep things the way they have been? Does your wife wai your feet before going to bed? (Or do you wai your husbands feet before bed?) Does your maid clip your toenails for you?

Or is it the other way around? You are poor. You got lucky and got a wonderful education from the government allowing you to converse in fluent English. You like being poor; don't worry about having anything as all poor people do. You don't care about your children getting a good education. In fact you'll be happy enough to see your daughter clipping those wilting toenails off some old koon ying. Life really is wonderful for you. But then why are you so angry? Fear of change?

Everyone should just be happy happy happy.

I didn't expect this thread to go this way. Someone turn on the fog, get out the nail clippers, pass out the beer to the tourists and everyone go back to what they were doing.

[gurkle]

qurkle, why do you have so much anger? Are you rich or poor?

Is the fear of losing your wealth and easy living (easy expolitation) stressing you out? I would bet that you want to keep things the way they have been? Does your wife wai your feet before going to bed? (Or do you wai your husbands feet before bed?) Does your maid clip your toenails for you?

Or is it the other way around? You are poor. You got lucky and got a wonderful education from the government allowing you to converse in fluent English. You like being poor; don't worry about having anything as all poor people do. You don't care about your children getting a good education. In fact you'll be happy enough to see your daughter clipping those wilting toenails off some old koon ying. Life really is wonderful for you. But then why are you so angry? Fear of change?

Everyone should just be happy happy happy.

I didn't expect this thread to go this way. Someone turn on the fog, get out the nail clippers, pass out the beer to the tourists and everyone go back to what they were doing.

My point is I prefer to help the poor through the philosophy "give a man a fish, feed him for a day; teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime." I prefer the latter while others the former.

There's really no need for attacks on my personal situation.

[samran]

So many of the posts in this and other forums show a huge misunderstanding and misconception of Thais and the Thai way of life.

Yes, but you have shown a massive misunderstanding in the use of paragraphs!

[Mobi]

So many of the posts in this and other forums show a huge misunderstanding and misconception of Thais and the Thai way of life.

Yes, but you have shown a massive misunderstanding in the use of paragraphs!

Critism accepted.

However, if we go down that route,

we could deluge all forums,

with compaints

about,

spelling,

grammar,

syntax,

etcetra etcetra etcetera

You're right - I have a massive misunderstanding in the use of paragraphs.

[Martin]

"So many of the posts in this and other forums show a huge misunderstanding and misconception of Thais and the Thai way of life"

The above sentiment, or something similar, comes up quite often. But , of all the different outlooks of Thais and their different ways of life, I am never sure which is THE one.

Could some enlightenment come my way, please?

[Tippaporn]

"So many of the posts in this and other forums show a huge misunderstanding and misconception of Thais and the Thai way of life"

The above sentiment, or something similar, comes up quite often. But , of all the different outlooks of Thais and their different ways of life, I am never sure which is THE one.

Could some enlightenment come my way, please?

Sure. I'll give you mine, for what it's worth. I thought the below was an excellent quote.

<snip>

I am not blind to the shortcomings of the land and its people, but that's the thing about real love: it's unconditional and accepts them warts and all. I just hope they accept me in the same way.

There's truth in everything, hence observations and experiences by some that are 180 degrees to the observations and experiences of others. Who's right and who's wrong? The answer is both and neither, respectively.

Thailand is not a perfect place, just like anywhere else in the world. There are always "good" aspects and "bad" aspects, and the reason I use quotation marks around those values is because they are relative terms; relative to you.

It's up to you what you want to get out of life. So, you have the choice to look at what pleases you or you have the choice to look at what doesn't. Neither implies that you necessarily have to stick your head in the sand about the existence of other things that you don't place your attention on. The important point, which my experience seems to prove out, is that depending on what you place your focus on will determine by and large what type of experience happens to follow. A som nam na effect, if you will.

As long as people are putting their attention all over the place, then coming together to discuss them, these types of discussions will never end. And the length and breadth of the topics are just as endless. Read the opinions, think about them, and choose what feels best for you would be my advice.

Edited February 21, 2006 by Tippaporn

[Totster]

The way I see Sanuuk in Thailand is...

Sanuuk is part of everyday life in Thailand.. for instance....

It can range from going out dancing at night, to carrying out a mundane task. The reason you see TV sets in market stalls and shops is because work shouldn't be a chore... the same reason you will see shop assistants talking on mobile phones, eating at the desks... it's all part of the sanuuk philosophy. Sanuuk isn't just about laughing and joking.. it's about taking the edge off the working day, making do with what you've got and enjoying yourself.

In the villages every task is accompanied by drinking and merriment.. where would be the fun (sanuuk) otherwise ?!

totster

[uhuh]

"To clarify, when I said "house" I meant shelter. Hence this includes the sheet-metal shacks you see all over the place. It's not the nicest place, but it gives more stability than being homeless. Rampant real estate speculation in the US prevent this possibility."

Granted.

"Yes, the Thais do compare themselves to others. But it generally manifests itself in far less harmless ways than in America. In America, crimes are usually committed for money, and killing spouses for their insurance policy is a unique regularity in American culture. In Thailand crimes are mostly committed for personal reasons, and stealing less often ends up in murder."

Granted.

"The “beggars” here usually ask for money from other family members on an infrequent or semi-regular basis. In America, they absolutely demand handouts from the government on a regular, permanent basis. And this government money inevitably comes from complete strangers who have rightfully earned their money by working for it."

In Thailand, members of the extended family absolutely demand handouts on a regular, permanent basis from complete strangers who have rightfully earned their money by working for it.

"Since I’m an anonymous poster like everyone else here, you have a right to believe I’m not Thai. But I am."

That's interesting. It shows one more time, how little rich and poor Thais have in common, and how little they know about each other. I tend to forget this.

Actually, rich Thais have a lot more in common with rich Westerners than with poor Thais. Nothing new about this, but all this blahblah about "Thais" make me forget it. Stupid me.

[Ned]

To Mobi D'Ark

One of the best letters Ive read on this site. Perceptions so different from the vast majority of farang who write here.

[Plus]

I, personally, think that sanook quotent has decreased in the past few years. I don't know about villages and I rarely meet poor Thais or talk to them, but from what little I can see - sanook has diminished, and much more so among Bangkokians.

For example a village New Year party I attended for the first time five years ago was a full blast with long tables overflowing with food and lao, karaoke, visits to all the neighbourhood houses and so on. Now it's nearly died out with no one staying till the countdown.

The resort I spend this last New Year had a party planned with balloons, DJs and fireworks, but no one showed up! Every one was in his own bungalo midning their own business and by midnight half the lights were gone. There was ablsolutely nothing resembling "sanook".

I also think that many entertainment places, especially in shopping malls have far less customers than five years ago.

And Songkran - last year all "illegal" waterfights were outlawed and there weren't any in many traditional Songkran hangouts.

In a huge hotel I stayed recently the last Thai customer left the lobby before 11, and it was the only place that had music and served alcohol in the neighbourhood.

As for work - I think companies are constantly tightening screws on their staff - coffee breaks, TV sets (gone long time ago), late lunches and so on.

I normally don't notice these changes 'cos they happen slowly over a long time, but I think the trend is clearly there.

[AmeriThai]

I, personally, think that sanook quotent has decreased in the past few years. I don't know about villages and I rarely meet poor Thais or talk to them, but from what little I can see - sanook has diminished, and much more so among Bangkokians.

For example a village New Year party I attended for the first time five years ago was a full blast with long tables overflowing with food and lao, karaoke, visits to all the neighbourhood houses and so on. Now it's nearly died out with no one staying till the countdown.

The resort I spend this last New Year had a party planned with balloons, DJs and fireworks, but no one showed up! Every one was in his own bungalo midning their own business and by midnight half the lights were gone. There was ablsolutely nothing resembling "sanook".

I also think that many entertainment places, especially in shopping malls have far less customers than five years ago.

And Songkran - last year all "illegal" waterfights were outlawed and there weren't any in many traditional Songkran hangouts.

In a huge hotel I stayed recently the last Thai customer left the lobby before 11, and it was the only place that had music and served alcohol in the neighbourhood.

As for work - I think companies are constantly tightening screws on their staff - coffee breaks, TV sets (gone long time ago), late lunches and so on.

I normally don't notice these changes 'cos they happen slowly over a long time, but I think the trend is clearly there.

I don’t doubt that the examples you cited happened as stated. However, it’s a big leap to conclude there’s a clear trend that sanook is diminishing.

Based on your experiences, how much do you think sanook has diminished throughout the kingdom, and Bangkok in particular? 25%? 50%? More?

[Martin]

My view of 'sanook' is that it developed as a way of making reasonably-acceptable all the repetitious tasks in the fields.

So it continues to thrive in the fields.

But it doesn't fit with urban jobs now, where the routine, repetitious stuff has been taken over by various devices and the human worker only does those things that need the concentration of a brain to be applied.

It may be still alive and well in 'sweat shop' factory work.

I suppose that the students use the word to just mean 'easy-going joviality' in a broadening of the use of the term.

Since 'sanook' and stress are mutually incompatible, it would be unlikely that it could survive in Bangkok for long, even though the first generation of arrivals from the rural areas brought it with them in abundance.

When I worked at an international school in Bangkok, there was plenty of 'sanook' to be had with the guards (from Isaan) on the gate, if it was evening and I was the only member of staff going through.

But not when the 'bosses' were around.

Then, we had to pretend that we were 'Westernised', and all uptight.

[Totster]

TV sets (gone long time ago), l

Maybe not as common... but definately not gone....

totster

[thai_time]

I don't find Thai people to have more 'sanook' than other countries really. Except German people and eastern europeans. I am Irish and i think people here have 'sanook makk makk', altough my defintion of it means getting pissed drunk with your friends and having a good laugh.

This shows clearly that you've never been to Germany or Eastern Europe to make such a ridculous comment. (do you even speak German or any other language?) If you have been there then a few days at the Oktoberfest doesn't count.

But then I guess if getting pissed drunk is your idea of sanuk then it's not surprising. Possibly staying on the Emerald Isle is your best bet so you can pickle your organs and think you're having fun.

Ja ich spreche ein bischen Deutsch. I have been to germany and eastern europe and i think the people there look miserable. Especially Germans. The most boring race on earth bar none. I know this is a late reply but i am not on this board much. I have a life you see.

[jdinasia]

I found some of the posts in here more than a tish patronizing .....

<Mobi >

There are those of us that may agree or disagree with you ... but that doesn't mean we haven't been here ... travelled ... or "know"

Sanook is alive an well all over Thailand ... though I would say that the CEO environment of the last 5 years has seen it diminish in major areas of population. With the increase in consumer debt etc we see people trying harder to catch up than before. Working more than one job etc.

I've been on rubber plantations in the south at 4am and heard GALES of laughter .... and in village markets in Isaan in the early morning where even the monks were hard pressed to keep a reverent attitude with the hilarity going on around them!

Not to mention pool parties in Pattaya where the farang in one group and the Thais in another group were ALL laughing so hard that there wasn't a dry eye in the place!

Granted there will be a bit of difference for most folks here that don't speak the language ... often Thai people ARE more subdued around foriegners ... not because they don't want to have fun ... or don't want farang to have fun ... but more out of a sense of 'greng jai' to not have someone feel left out of the joke!

[Sing_Sling]

I don't find Thai people to have more 'sanook' than other countries really. Except German people and eastern europeans. I am Irish and i think people here have 'sanook makk makk', altough my defintion of it means getting pissed drunk with your friends and having a good laugh.

This shows clearly that you've never been to Germany or Eastern Europe to make such a ridculous comment. (do you even speak German or any other language?) If you have been there then a few days at the Oktoberfest doesn't count.

But then I guess if getting pissed drunk is your idea of sanuk then it's not surprising. Possibly staying on the Emerald Isle is your best bet so you can pickle your organs and think you're having fun.

Ja ich spreche ein bischen Deutsch. I have been to germany and eastern europe and i think the people there look miserable. Especially Germans. The most boring race on earth bar none. I know this is a late reply but i am not on this board much. I have a life you see.

Clearly the life you have doesn't include education . . . So, 80 million Germans are boring, several hundred million east Europeans are boring and you are the harbinger of happiness.

Well, I've lived in Germany and speak German fluently, not just a little like you, and find them to be quite as happy and humourous as any other European. Ever been to Scandinavia? Try Finland.

What happened? A few Germans dumped you?

Every nation has it's own sense of humour, some travel well, others don't, some translate well, others don't.

Possibly you are simply better off living in your own four walls - - -

[moonoi]

I don't find Thai people to have more 'sanook' than other countries really. Except German people and eastern europeans. I am Irish and i think people here have 'sanook makk makk', altough my defintion of it means getting pissed drunk with your friends and having a good laugh.

This shows clearly that you've never been to Germany or Eastern Europe to make such a ridculous comment. (do you even speak German or any other language?) If you have been there then a few days at the Oktoberfest doesn't count.

But then I guess if getting pissed drunk is your idea of sanuk then it's not surprising. Possibly staying on the Emerald Isle is your best bet so you can pickle your organs and think you're having fun.

Ja ich spreche ein bischen Deutsch. I have been to germany and eastern europe and i think the people there look miserable. Especially Germans. The most boring race on earth bar none. I know this is a late reply but i am not on this board much. I have a life you see.

Clearly the life you have doesn't include education . . . So, 80 million Germans are boring, several hundred million east Europeans are boring and you are the harbinger of happiness.

Well, I've lived in Germany and speak German fluently, not just a little like you, and find them to be quite as happy and humourous as any other European. Ever been to Scandinavia? Try Finland.

What happened? A few Germans dumped you?

Every nation has it's own sense of humour, some travel well, others don't, some translate well, others don't.

Possibly you are simply better off living in your own four walls - - -

Hey whats wrong with Finland? Less boring than the Germans and I speak German (ok not fluently but well enough and Finnish to about the same level)

btw I'd like to add that Finland although a Nordic country is not part of Scandinavia, that pleasure belongs to Norway, Denmark and Sweden

I'm an Anglo-Finn btw

[jdinasia]

I would say that this is becoming a Finny story .... but ... back to Nook Nook .....

[Sing_Sling]

[

Hey whats wrong with Finland? Less boring than the Germans and I speak German (ok not fluently but well enough and Finnish to about the same level)

btw I'd like to add that Finland although a Nordic country is not part of Scandinavia, that pleasure belongs to Norway, Denmark and Sweden

I'm an Anglo-Finn btw

Absolutely nothing wrong with being a Finn, lots of nice people and greeeeeeeat food - especially in Porvoo and Helsinki.

Although the language is Finno-Ugrian, aren't the people of Germanic background, like the Scandis or Slavic like Russians?

I think thai-time must have gone through a bad patch, not surprising with an attitude like that.

Off topic, sorry JD

Edited May 10, 2006 by Sing_Sling