Local Beef, Sour Taste?

[barefoot1988]

had anyone else noticed the local beef taste sour? its not a one time issue and its definintely not the rancid type of sour, i had googled it out and it appearred that grain fed beef had a sour taste to them.

[NeverSure]

OK, I grew up on a beef and wheat ranch in the Western USA. Prime and choice grades of beef are finished on grain for good marbling, taste and tenderness. Usually that grain is corn, but a mixture is sometimes used with wheat, corn and even molasses.

Nonetheless, the steers are placed in corrals away from the main herds to be fed this diet for at least 60 days before butchering.

After they are butchered, the beef is hung in a refrigerated room for at least one week to let rigor mortis pass and the meat go slack for tenderness. If it is really good beef from properly bred stock, it may be aged up to 3 weeks to let natural enzymes break down connective tissue and further tenderize it.

At this point the beef couldn't be sweeter or better.

If an animal is fed cheap feed with an off taste, you can taste it in the beef. This is noticed in deer and elk. If they've been foraging in the woods, they will taste gamey from eating various wild plants. But if they live around and feed in alfalfa fields and wheat fields at the expense of the farmers, they will be quite good.

If you are sure it isn't rancid (and I always worried about that in LOS for all of the obvious reasons) then it was probably the feed and who knows what that was. Either that, or one time in LOS I tasted beef and wondered if it had been treated with a chemical preservative. They wouldn't use formaldehyde would they?

Would they?

[wayned]

Very informative and accurate post. I have never seen grain fed beef in Thailand. Most of the beef is grass fed and allowed to eat anything that they will eat. The beef and pork that is sold in the market in my village is killed and butcherd the day before and is not aged at all and is only kept on ice in a chest. At times there is a pickup truck that goes around selling beef, not iced at all. Probably the cow that died of old age yesterday.

[krisb]

Interesting points Neversure.

Wayned I have had Angas grainfed Aussie beef in a Thai restaraunt before. Wasnt cheap and the waiter was asking me what it was exactly. I didnt buy it as I still think Thais cant cook steak and Id rather eat Thai in Thailand.

As for steak being rancid, this would be quite obvious although aged steak isnt to far off, more expensive and quite popular in Oz.

[wayned]

I wasn't saying that imported grain fed beef wasn't available, what I sad was that you won't find Thai grain fed beef. Aging beef really does improve the quality of the meat. There's a restaurant in NYC, Gallager's, that has their aging cooler as their front window. The meat is actually turning black, but the flavor and tenderness is wonderful. Very expensive when I was there 50 years ago so I can imagine what it costs now.

[farang000999]

There is no reason at all to eat beef in Thailand. The Thais do not eat it. Why would you want to? On the rare occasion I have eaten it it has tasted terrible. Now, American beef is one of the best things that country has going for itself,

[NeverSure]

I recall in an earlier thread wondering about the viability of a business in LOS of selling quality beef. Of course there is the breed and the breeding and some bulls and breeding calves are worth a fortune for their blood lines.

Still, I wondered what if someone bought Thai steers at about 1 year old and finished them? We used to do that because about 1/2 of the ranch grew feed. We'd go to the auction and buy yearling steers and finish them. We didn't slaughter or age or butcher except for ourselves and a few special people. We sold them to a slaughter house which did the rest.

I just wondered what the Thai market would be for quality beef if a farang(s) leased enough farm to have room and facilities to buy, finish feeding, slaughter, hang and age the beef and then sell it to restaurants.

Just any animal won't do, but most breeds of yearling steers will be OK for finishing. Healthy dairy cows that quit giving enough milk and beef cows that don't bear calves any longer etc. go into fast food burgers and they taste fine but won't yield a good tender and juicy steak or roast so it all gets ground up.

Just thinkin...

Edit. The feed lot really doesn't take up that much space. The animals are corralled and the feed is imported to the site. I could do quite a bit on 20 rai. Do I recall something about having to hire 6 Thai employees or something? That would be no problem here.

The turnover of an animal would be about 3+ months from purchase to sale.

Edited December 27, 2012 by NeverSure

[wayned]

There is no reason at all to eat beef in Thailand. The Thais do not eat it. Why would you want to? On the rare occasion I have eaten it it has tasted terrible. Now, American beef is one of the best things that country has going for itself,

Thais eat beef where I live, my wife has a small restaurant in the village and she serves it, usually in noodles. One reason that they don't eat it is that it is expensive compared to pork and chicken. Where I live beef is 200 baht/kilo, pork 115 baht/kilo and chicken 70 baht/kilo. Thai beef is not grain fed and aged so it is usually dry, tough and sometimes has an unusual flavor due to how it was raised and what it has been fed. American beef is grain fed and is graded, choice or prime, according to the fat content in the meat, and aged. The marbling and aging makes it tender and enhances the flavor.

[loong]

There is no reason at all to eat beef in Thailand. The Thais do not eat it. Why would you want to? On the rare occasion I have eaten it it has tasted terrible. Now, American beef is one of the best things that country has going for itself,

Thais most certainly DO eat beef. Mind you, I've often wondered why as the beef that they eat is usually ectremely poor quality andcompletely opposite of tender. Often overcooked and very chewy.

Sometimes I think that the only reason that they eat beef is because it is expensive - snob value.

[NeverSure]

There is no reason at all to eat beef in Thailand. The Thais do not eat it. Why would you want to? On the rare occasion I have eaten it it has tasted terrible. Now, American beef is one of the best things that country has going for itself,

Thais most certainly DO eat beef. Mind you, I've often wondered why as the beef that they eat is usually ectremely poor quality andcompletely opposite of tender. Often overcooked and very chewy.

Sometimes I think that the only reason that they eat beef is because it is expensive - snob value.

Something a bit off topic just popped into my head. When we had to butcher the milk cow because she stopped giving milk, most would be hamburger but roasts and steaks we would cut into about 4" (100mm) squares, add some seasonings to taste and cook to shreds in a pressure cooker. Today we use a crock pot. First we cook it until it gives up its excess water and pour off that beef stock to save. Then we can smother in BBQ sauce or just leave as is and cook until it will shred with a fork. The decision whether to use BBQ sauce or teriyaki or whatever is made by the flavor of the beef. Usually the flavor is good because we still grain feed that animal for at least a month.

Now we have very tender beef, shredded by a large fork, and sauce for it. We make French dip sandwiches, BBQ, whatever but it is tender and good. I think if the flavor was real bad to start with, there'd be no hope that I know of.

[chiangmaikelly]

Florida is the 10th largest cattle producing State in the US so a lot of cattle (over a million head a year) are produced in a climate much like Thailand. The cattle go from grass to a finishing lot to get them healthy and then to a feed lot to fatten them up and then they are slaughtered. I think the sour taste in Thai beef is from high levels of lactic produced when beef is stressed when slaughtered and little if any time aging the beef wet or dry.

Much of Japan’s high quality beef comes from cows that are fed beer and massaged. The massages increases the animals circulation and ensured the even growth of fat below the skin. The claim that the cows listen to Mozart piped in to their bars appears to be a myth.

The cows are brushed with clear liquor to keep their coats in peak conditions. The "massages" are stiff rubdowns with a wire brush that are done about every other day. Some farmers feed beer to their cows every week. Some like it. Other have to be force fed. Six to eight months before the beef is sold, the cows are fed beer to increase their appetite and relieve stress.

http://factsanddetails.com/japan.php?itemid=938&catid=24&subcatid=159#04

Edited December 27, 2012 by chiangmaikelly

[NeverSure]

Good points. Adrenaline is another one. This is another place where aging will solve the problem. We always tried to put an animal down by surprise when it was calm. Sometimes that isn't possible especially with game animals, so we age them too.

Another is leaving the hide on and another is late or improper cleaning called "dressing." We pull the hide off while the animal is warm and scrape off any excess fat under it. Yes, we pull the hides off - topic for another thread. There's something about the fat layer right under the skin that makes it different and it needs to come off.

I wonder how much attention is paid to any of this in LOS.

[wayned]

It seems that you can never by beef with the bones in, beef ribs or any bones except an occasional tail. I've tried to order a beef bone in rib roast but alwys get the rib eye without the bones. My wife say the vendor says that they sell the bones for "dog food". I have no problem getting pork cut any way I like, I can even pick out the pig before it's butchered.

I usually only cook hamburgers or a 1.5 kilo peice of rib eye rare for sandwiches. The rib eye is easy to cook and comes out rare every time and is tender if sliced very thin.

[NeverSure]

I forgot to add one point at least. If a person is to prepare a beef for butchering, the penning it in a corral to control its diet also restricts it from any exercise. This helps to soften the muscles which are of course the meat. It also helps it to gain weight by marbling the meat with fat which ads flavor and tenderness and "juiciness."

I'm still curious as to whether this would be a viable business in LOS. It would be primarily pens to contain the animals, a place to store feed, a good water supply, a setup with a squeeze chute for examination and slaughter, a place to clean and skin, and a refrigerated room to hang the animals for up to 3 weeks. There would need to be a butcher and equipment, and a refrigerated truck to deliver to high end restaurants and even markets. I think it should be located within a reasonable delivery distance of Chiang Mai or Bangkok but I don't know that for sure.

[chiangmaikelly]

I forgot to add one point at least. If a person is to prepare a beef for butchering, the penning it in a corral to control its diet also restricts it from any exercise. This helps to soften the muscles which are of course the meat. It also helps it to gain weight by marbling the meat with fat which ads flavor and tenderness and "juiciness."

I'm still curious as to whether this would be a viable business in LOS. It would be primarily pens to contain the animals, a place to store feed, a good water supply, a setup with a squeeze chute for examination and slaughter, a place to clean and skin, and a refrigerated room to hang the animals for up to 3 weeks. There would need to be a butcher and equipment, and a refrigerated truck to deliver to high end restaurants and even markets. I think it should be located within a reasonable delivery distance of Chiang Mai or Bangkok but I don't know that for sure.

Look up the percentage of beef consumption in Thailand and you will have your answer.

[NeverSure]

Look up the percentage of beef consumption in Thailand and you will have your answer.

I'm not entirely convinced. For instance I wonder how much more beef would be consumed if there was high quality available in restaurants in the large tourist and hi so areas? In other words, is it not consumed because it sucks? If one could just present it to tourists, would he sell more than he could produce?

If I figure that the average steer will be about 1500 pounds (700 kg) on the hoof, and dress out to 1/2 that in actual meat, and if a person could net US $1 and gross $2 profit per pound, then he'd make about $750 or 23,000 baht per steer. Cut that in half and you still net 11,500 b per steer.

I was thinking of a small operation which could rotate out 20 steers every 100 days, and always have 20 steers in process. That's one steer per 5 days or about 70,000 baht per month net at the 11,500 baht net figure. 140,000 baht per month if my $1 per pound figure is closer. That's a very small operation of just 20 steers - sell one yearling, buy one, every five days. Boost that to 100 animals per 100 days and multiply by five.

In the US, cattle ranchers are some of the wealthiest people around and that's where beef is fairly cheap.

[chiangmaikelly]

Look up the percentage of beef consumption in Thailand and you will have your answer.

I'm not entirely convinced. For instance I wonder how much more beef would be consumed if there was high quality available in restaurants in the large tourist and hi so areas? In other words, is it not consumed because it sucks? If one could just present it to tourists, would he sell more than he could produce?

If I figure that the average steer will be about 1500 pounds (700 kg) on the hoof, and dress out to 1/2 that in actual meat, and if a person could net US $1 and gross $2 profit per pound, then he'd make about $750 or 23,000 baht per steer. Cut that in half and you still net 11,500 b per steer.

I was thinking of a small operation which could rotate out 20 steers every 100 days, and always have 20 steers in process. That's one steer per 5 days or about 70,000 baht per month net at the 11,500 baht net figure. 140,000 baht per month if my $1 per pound figure is closer. That's a very small operation of just 20 steers - sell one yearling, buy one, every five days. Boost that to 100 animals per 100 days and multiply by five.

In the US, cattle ranchers are some of the wealthiest people around and that's where beef is fairly cheap.

Convinced? Thai people eat beef? 555. Try this. How many Americans eat Kobe beef? It is a price and cultural thing. You might as well go to India and start a cattle ranch.

[NeverSure]

What if your target market wasn't Thais? What if was expats and tourists? My first scenario only produces 150 pounds a day. That's about 75 # (100 servings) of roasts and ribs and steaks, and 75 # (150 servings) of top quality ground beef for gourmet burgers etc.

The two big chain restaurants in the US for those products are Outback Steakhouse and The Roadhouse Grill. They have 1/2 pound burgers for a fat price and steaks and ribs and roast beef. They also serve pork and seafood too, but they do a big biz.

I thought from personal observation that quality beef in those quantities was expensive and hard to come by in LOS.

I thought I was talking about a relatively tiny amount; not flooding the place hoping Thais would eat it.

[chiangmaikelly]

What if your target market wasn't Thais? What if was expats and tourists? My first scenario only produces 150 pounds a day. That's about 75 # (100 servings) of roasts and ribs and steaks, and 75 # (150 servings) of top quality ground beef for gourmet burgers etc.

The two big chain restaurants in the US for those products are Outback Steakhouse and The Roadhouse Grill. They have 1/2 pound burgers for a fat price and steaks and ribs and roast beef. They also serve pork and seafood too, but they do a big biz.

I thought from personal observation that quality beef in those quantities was expensive and hard to come by in LOS.

I thought I was talking about a relatively tiny amount; not flooding the place hoping Thais would eat it.

The Farang market is drying up in Thailand. No one is coming anymore. They have been reading Thai Visa.

[thaicbr]

What if your target market wasn't Thais? What if was expats and tourists? My first scenario only produces 150 pounds a day. That's about 75 # (100 servings) of roasts and ribs and steaks, and 75 # (150 servings) of top quality ground beef for gourmet burgers etc.

The two big chain restaurants in the US for those products are Outback Steakhouse and The Roadhouse Grill. They have 1/2 pound burgers for a fat price and steaks and ribs and roast beef. They also serve pork and seafood too, but they do a big biz.

I thought from personal observation that quality beef in those quantities was expensive and hard to come by in LOS.

I thought I was talking about a relatively tiny amount; not flooding the place hoping Thais would eat it.

The Farang market is drying up in Thailand. No one is coming anymore. They have been reading Thai Visa.

Don't places like Chokchai and KP Beef already do this?

sent from my Q6

[chiangmaikelly]

http://www.thaivisa....aks-from-japan/

Edited December 28, 2012 by chiangmaikelly

[bobo42]

Look up the percentage of beef consumption in Thailand and you will have your answer.

I'm not entirely convinced. For instance I wonder how much more beef would be consumed if there was high quality available in restaurants in the large tourist and hi so areas? In other words, is it not consumed because it sucks? If one could just present it to tourists, would he sell more than he could produce?

If I figure that the average steer will be about 1500 pounds (700 kg) on the hoof, and dress out to 1/2 that in actual meat, and if a person could net US $1 and gross $2 profit per pound, then he'd make about $750 or 23,000 baht per steer. Cut that in half and you still net 11,500 b per steer.

I was thinking of a small operation which could rotate out 20 steers every 100 days, and always have 20 steers in process. That's one steer per 5 days or about 70,000 baht per month net at the 11,500 baht net figure. 140,000 baht per month if my $1 per pound figure is closer. That's a very small operation of just 20 steers - sell one yearling, buy one, every five days. Boost that to 100 animals per 100 days and multiply by five.

In the US, cattle ranchers are some of the wealthiest people around and that's where beef is fairly cheap.

Being from the US, and accustomed to great steaks, I have often had the same thought. Seems like it should be an excellent business opportunity here. Here's my uninformed opinion, but maybe worth some research to prove/disprove.

There is certainly a unfulfilled demand for high quality beef in Thailand. The greatest part of this niche exists in the tourist market. Many restaurant customers wish to have meals of western-style beef - this assertion can be pretty well proven by just looking at restaurant menus in tourist areas, noting how many feature high priced "steaks". And then of course noting how disappointing the product actually is - even in high-class establishments, paying 3k baht or more, a good steak does not exist here. The facts are: its on the menus, people order it, and its always terrible. This tells us that the market is here.

So what's the problem? Why isn't this niche being filled? I believe its just due to the general business climate here. Restaurant owners/managers are not willing to pay for a high-quality product. Why sell a truly excellent steak at a reasonable profit, when you can sell a poor quality cut at the same price (or cheaper) at a higher profit? Nobody is interested in quality, tourists will pay top-dollar anyway and leave disappointed, but nobody cares - money in-hand and tourists still come. Building a great reputation is simply not part of doing business here.

So in order for this to work, you would need to have excellent connections in the high-end restaurant industry here. You'd have to know people who were willing to take the time and trouble to work together to establish a reputation for your brand and their own business. Unless you had connections that you can count-on, at every step from the farm to the fork, you're gonna have a bad time. Just my opinion.

[NeverSure]

I don't know. Agree you'd have to "partner" with some Western restaurant owners who would know or learn how to grill a steak, make ribs and BBQ beef and prime rib and killer 1/2 pound gourmet burgers. I'd model it after the Roadhouse ("Road Kill") Grill and the Outback Steakhouse.

I don't know if it would work. If it did there's money in it.

[chiangmaikelly]

Look at the locations of Lawry's Prime rib. Hong Kong, Singapore, Tokyo and others no Bangkok. Lawry's certainly has the funds to come. One wonders why not?

[wayned]

If you look at the ROI, the R just isn't there. There's no demand for qualiity beef in Thailand to justify the investment. And if you are using "Outback Steakhouse" as an example of quality beef I think that you are really off the mark. OBSH is nothing more than a glorified fastfood restaurant and the quality of beef that they serve leaves a lot to be desired. I've been coming to Thailand for over 40 years and have never had a good steak in a restaurant. Why? Because I would never order it, just like I wouldn't order Thai food in Wichita, Kansas, or for that matter even pacific salmon. Sure it would be nice to have a good steak or a big peice of bone in USDA prime rib once in a while, but the demand is just not there.

[chiangmaikelly]

If you look at the ROI, the R just isn't there. There's no demand for qualiity beef in Thailand to justify the investment. And if you are using "Outback Steakhouse" as an example of quality beef I think that you are really off the mark. OBSH is nothing more than a glorified fastfood restaurant and the quality of beef that they serve leaves a lot to be desired. I've been coming to Thailand for over 40 years and have never had a good steak in a restaurant. Why? Because I would never order it, just like I wouldn't order Thai food in Wichita, Kansas, or for that matter even pacific salmon. Sure it would be nice to have a good steak or a big peice of bone in USDA prime rib once in a while, but the demand is just not there.

Fuji (all over Thailand) has good Wagyu beef and kuro buta pork. I'll eat if if someone else is paying. Someone remember exactly? 2000 baht for a small beef steak?

[loong]

If your target consumer is mainly Farang, then you would have to be prepared for an uphill struggle.

Most of us have probably given up eating beef because of the extemely low quality available.

However, I do believe that you could find a market for a really high quality product as long as the chefs are capable of cooking with the best quality meat without turning it into something mediocre.

Expect it to take a while for reputations to build though.

[wayned]

If you look at the ROI, the R just isn't there. There's no demand for qualiity beef in Thailand to justify the investment. And if you are using "Outback Steakhouse" as an example of quality beef I think that you are really off the mark. OBSH is nothing more than a glorified fastfood restaurant and the quality of beef that they serve leaves a lot to be desired. I've been coming to Thailand for over 40 years and have never had a good steak in a restaurant. Why? Because I would never order it, just like I wouldn't order Thai food in Wichita, Kansas, or for that matter even pacific salmon. Sure it would be nice to have a good steak or a big peice of bone in USDA prime rib once in a while, but the demand is just not there.

Fuji (all over Thailand) has good Wagyu beef and kuro buta pork. I'll eat if if someone else is paying. Someone remember exactly? 2000 baht for a small beef steak?

Wagyu beef is essentially Kobe beef but can not be called Kobe because it is not raised in the Kobe area of Japan. It is a fine marbled tender beef, but I suspect that if someone tried to open a Wagyu beef steak restaurant the ROI would be the same, not good! It is something that we all enjoy from time to time but I don't think that it would be profitable.

[chiangmaikelly]

Japanese Kobe Steakhouse Restaurant on Petchburi Rd in the heart of Bangkok has been in existence for over 30 years.

[NeverSure]

And if you are using "Outback Steakhouse" as an example of quality beef I think that you are really off the mark. OBSH is nothing more than a glorified fastfood restaurant and the quality of beef that they serve leaves a lot to be desired.

Agreed. I was thinking only of the menu style - that type of food. I'm in cattle country. I'll certainly treat you to a good steak.