Foreigners Attack Hazing Ritual At Thai Universities

[scorecard]

Dear Hyperion,

Cut from your last post to get past the 'too many quotes' protocol:

".... No I'm not in support of the crazy real hazing that takes place globally. I know hazing is a big issue, and I know it should be looked at more carefully. I don't like the idea of hazing. I can't recall ever being hazed, but I was bullied often as a kid and it sucked. Hazing is barbaric, nasty, and I'd like to see more punishments for it.

Anywho, I'll just take it that you just misunderstood me/misread what I was trying to say."

I say again, you seem to have changed you attitude mis stream, and no I didn't misunderstand what you wrote.

If your going to contribute to these threads (your absolute right) then maybe you should think a bit more before you write.

I ask you again, how would you react if one of your children (at about 18 years old) was murdered or maimed by one of these barbaric and criminal actions?

[gl555]

I'm sorry who are these idiots again? As long as the hazing doesn't go too far as to endanger someone's life, it's okay.

Hazing is a tradition that isn't exclusive to universities in Thailand. Why doesn't this moron go criticise someone else first?

In America these are what we would call the treehugging liberals, the same people who think fishing is animal abuse.

Singing in public? The horror of it all. I use to make them put thier underwear on thier head and take a leap of the high dive. After the beer we drank, nobody really cared or were embarrassed. Though cases do happen where jerks take it too far. But what I see it's a joke.

Actually, I see only one joke here and that is a guy, who thinks that sexual humiliation, actual bodily harming procedures and injuries, degenerating practices or deat (as reported by several members of the forum by now) is all just good clean fun!

I don't know what kind of university you actually went to but the 'hazing' that I and others went thru was all part of the fun orientation. There was nothing sexual, dangerous and degenerating about it. It was admitably sometimes embarassing but not to the extreme. A lot of these activities bring people closer together and while there are some who take it overboard, not just here but all over the world, for the most part, everything is done in clean fun.

Have you people who criticise this actually gone to school or for that matter joined any uniformed organisations?

[hyperion]

Dear Hyperion,

Cut from your last post to get past the 'too many quotes' protocol:

".... No I'm not in support of the crazy real hazing that takes place globally. I know hazing is a big issue, and I know it should be looked at more carefully. I don't like the idea of hazing. I can't recall ever being hazed, but I was bullied often as a kid and it sucked. Hazing is barbaric, nasty, and I'd like to see more punishments for it.

Anywho, I'll just take it that you just misunderstood me/misread what I was trying to say."

I say again, you seem to have changed you attitude mis stream, and no I didn't misunderstand what you wrote.

If your going to contribute to these threads (your absolute right) then maybe you should think a bit more before you write.

I ask you again, how would you react if one of your children (at about 18 years old) was murdered or maimed by one of these barbaric and criminal actions?

I'm not sure if you would actually expect anyone to say anything other than horrible.

I'm also confused as to what my change in attitude was. So if you can point out what you mean, I'll take a look at it and clear it up.

Also, I know in my first post I made the mistake that I thought the post author mentioned hazing in the Facebook post, which I went back and re-read and it didn't mention hazing in there, so I'm sorry for that. It was the commenters and the editorial that brought that up and not the actual ASEAN Community admin's post.

We don't need to resolve to personally attacking anyone here. I don't know you. You don't know me. "Can't we all just get along?"

Edited January 5, 2013 by hyperion

[Moss3161]

"Defenders of the practice says it creates school spirit and respect for upperclassmen, as well as creating stronger bonds between the beleaguered freshmen."

Thai hazing goes well beyond "singing songs" or "performing calisthenics." "Upper classmen" who force freshmen to engage in a variety of distasteful, even harmful, activities - to generally submit in all ways to bullying, may gain submission. They do not gain respect. Nor does the university, and so nor does "school spirit" benefit in any meaningful way. A significant number of students, possibly more than half, quit in their first or second term (observed when my eldest daughter attended university here). Far from creating "stronger bonds between the beleaguered freshmen" (WHY are they beleaguered, again?), it appears to alienate said students more often than not.

If one wants their dog to love them, be loyal, etc., the way to achieve such is plain: give the dog love and respect. Treat it badly, and it will hate you.

The same is true of university students. If the Thai university system wants freshmen to "pay respect to the senior students and teachers, and also to love the university and their major of studying," so as to "cause harmony between groups of students," the way to do so is plain: treat your freshmen with respect, and they will respect you. Treat your freshmen without respect, and well... Karma can be a b*tch sometimes, as they say.

Yeah, you are right. Thai university should remove this traditional out or allow their students to be able to choose whether they'll join this hazing or not. Hazing sometimes end up with problems and even death. And when those freshmen are a seniors, they do the same thing that their seniors did to them because now they have a power to do so and this result in a continues cycle of bulls**t. Seriously, I think there're lots of more ways to make a freshmen pay respect to their seniors not just hazing. Hazing = Dangerous activity and a waste of time.

[pacovl46]

OMG, they have to yell and sing some school songs on ONE occasion and the haters want to know how wether or not it causes any development of education and thought??? It's not like they're being hazed throughout the entire time they're studying there. Get a life!!!!

[TackyToo]

For its defenders, the Sotus culture is an ideal system to train the attitudes of the university students. It has been found in some Thai universities to help fulfill the objective to let younger students pay respect to the senior students and teachers, and also to love the university and their major of studying, which will cause harmony between groups of students.

Is that why they shoot at you and attack you with knifes if you are from a different (wrong) school or university?

[gl555]

For its defenders, the Sotus culture is an ideal system to train the attitudes of the university students. It has been found in some Thai universities to help fulfill the objective to let younger students pay respect to the senior students and teachers, and also to love the university and their major of studying, which will cause harmony between groups of students.

Is that why they shoot at you and attack you with knifes if you are from a different (wrong) school or university?

People here get shot and stabbed for being in the wrong high school. These animals who do these violent acts are young and stupid and have no future whatsoever. Most that make it to university are not like that. In fact, I can't recall an incident of a university student here getting attacked from a 'rival' university.

But if you do have an incident here of a 'university war' ending in bloodshed, please enlighten us.

Edited January 5, 2013 by gl555

[saroq]

I'm sorry who are these idiots again? As long as the hazing doesn't go too far as to endanger someone's life, it's okay.

Hazing is a tradition that isn't exclusive to universities in Thailand. Why doesn't this moron go criticise someone else first?

They're not idiots and they're obviously don't have the antiquated beliefs about the purpose of a university education that you seem to have.

Hazing serves no purpose at all and no senior student deserves respect simply for being a senior student, they have to earn it. If students have the option to opt out of this stupid hazing ritual with no repercussions then it's not bullying, if they don't then it is bullying.

Edited January 5, 2013 by saroq

[gl555]

I'm sorry who are these idiots again? As long as the hazing doesn't go too far as to endanger someone's life, it's okay.

Hazing is a tradition that isn't exclusive to universities in Thailand. Why doesn't this moron go criticise someone else first?

They're not idiots and they're obviously not a dinosaur like you. Hazing serves no purpose at all and no senior student deserves respect simply for being a senior student, they have to earn it. If students have the option to opt out of this stupid hazing ritual with no repercussions then it's not bullying, if they don't then it is bullying.

Actually students DO have the option not to want to take part in these activities with no repercussions whatsoever. It is the ignorant people who seem to think the students are forced or coerced into this. It is also the ignorant people who seem to think these activities are all about assault, molestation, rape and ultimately murder. Wow! The universities me and my friends attended must have special for not having this!

[saroq]

OMG, they have to yell and sing some school songs on ONE occasion and the haters want to know how wether or not it causes any development of education and thought??? It's not like they're being hazed throughout the entire time they're studying there. Get a life!!!!

Where does it state that it's on only ONE occasion? Being forced to perform a stupid act ONE time or more is still a stupid thing to force students to do. They should be able to opt in or out with no negative consequences. You obviously didn't have to attend educational institutions where this type of stupidity was forced upon you.

[saroq]

I'm sorry who are these idiots again? As long as the hazing doesn't go too far as to endanger someone's life, it's okay.

Hazing is a tradition that isn't exclusive to universities in Thailand. Why doesn't this moron go criticise someone else first?

They're not idiots and they're obviously not a dinosaur like you. Hazing serves no purpose at all and no senior student deserves respect simply for being a senior student, they have to earn it. If students have the option to opt out of this stupid hazing ritual with no repercussions then it's not bullying, if they don't then it is bullying.

Actually students DO have the option not to want to take part in these activities with no repercussions whatsoever. It is the ignorant people who seem to think the students are forced or coerced into this. It is also the ignorant people who seem to think these activities are all about assault, molestation, rape and ultimately murder. Wow! The universities me and my friends attended must have special for not having this!

And your point is? Where did I liken the stupid ritual of hazing to assault, molestation, rape or murder? Didn't I clearly state that if they had the option to not participate then it's not bullying? Read carefully before you respond. Edited January 5, 2013 by saroq

[gl555]

I'm sorry who are these idiots again? As long as the hazing doesn't go too far as to endanger someone's life, it's okay.

Hazing is a tradition that isn't exclusive to universities in Thailand. Why doesn't this moron go criticise someone else first?

They're not idiots and they're obviously not a dinosaur like you. Hazing serves no purpose at all and no senior student deserves respect simply for being a senior student, they have to earn it. If students have the option to opt out of this stupid hazing ritual with no repercussions then it's not bullying, if they don't then it is bullying.

Actually students DO have the option not to want to take part in these activities with no repercussions whatsoever. It is the ignorant people who seem to think the students are forced or coerced into this. It is also the ignorant people who seem to think these activities are all about assault, molestation, rape and ultimately murder. Wow! The universities me and my friends attended must have special for not having this!

And your point is? Where did I liken the stupid ritual of hazing to assault, molestation, rape or murder? Didn't I clearly state that if they had the option to not participate then it's not bullying? Read carefully before you respond.

You haven't but it seems a lot of people posting here have. As for 'bullying', well you implied that the students had no choice but to go through with it even if they didn't want to because there would be 'repercussions', That's bullcrap and it's ignorant. I would suggest reviewing what you post carefully first or people might respond 'wrongly'. Haha

[Thai at Heart]

Well this just led me to a conversation I had never had. I just asked my wife what happened to her as a Freshman! Oh yes, there was singing and having to make funny faces, all in front of the staff, and then there was the other side. The 'secret room', and when every week for 3 months the seniors got a bus to come outside the university and they all had to go to an undisclosed location. SImulated sex, stripping, eating shit, eating parts of poisonous insects, lining up 20 people and one senior spits a greeny into the mouth of a freshman and then they had to swill it round, add their own spit and spit it all in to the mouth of the next (all supposed to be 'fun' for the seniors', not a thought for hepatitis or any other orally transmitted disease), at points along the line certain students would have to swallow! The stories of what happened were so rife my wife spoke with her parents and her Father point blank refused her to participate. The overall results, 15 girls and 5 boys left within 2 months , my wife stuck it out. Her punishment for not participating was that she was banned from participating in any Uni event (which meant she would not receive vital 'participation' points for Graduation, she was called into the 'secret room' every day for a year and threatened and on many occasions, slapped, she was at the end of her tether and almost left, but for a teacher realising her predicament and helping out. In short her years at uni were an utter nightmare. All of those that took part in the 'hazing', loathed the University and those that made them do it.

If that is fostering school unity and spirit, then those on here that endorse 'hazing' should take a serious look at yourselves. My wife went to a good Uni, one of her friends went to a lower Uni and had a very tough time, one boy in her year being paralyzed and hospitalized for years.

I feel quite angry just now!

I totally agree with you - my daughter is nearing the age to enter Uni, and I am now extremely worried about the prospect - but the problem is of course international, so swapping to places outside Thailand would probably do no more than add racism to the mix - the hazing would still occur. The authorities do need to look into this and find ways to stop it - perhaps jail terms along the lines of those convicted of crimes such as assault - and of course mandatory expulsion from the university, with a black mark against any future enrolment?

Never heard of it in the UK or oz. Probably never in Europe either.

[saroq]

To gl555

I didn't imply that they had no choice I stated that they should have a choice and a lack of choice would be bullying. I did state that hazing is a stupid ritual and I stand by that statement. I did imply that it is an outdated custom and as it is practiced today it serves no useful purpose in a modern education and people who think it does have outdated ideas and I stand by that. I suggest you read my posts carefully so you don't respond incorrectly in future. I will accept comment and correction on things I did say.

Edited January 5, 2013 by saroq

[gl555]

To gl555

I didn't imply that they had no choice I stated that they should have a choice and a lack of choice would be bullying. I did state that hazing is a stupid ritual and I stand by that statement. I did imply that it is an outdated custom and as it is practiced today it serves no useful purpose in a modern education and people who think it does have outdated ideas and I stand by that. I suggest you read my posts carefully so you don't respond incorrectly in future. I will accept comment and correction on things I did say.

I disagree. What some people call 'hazing' is just orientation games that brings students closer together. We go to school not only to learn, but also make friends. And while what you call 'hazing' isn't the only way to bring people together, it does help a lot. If students are willing to go through it (they can after all say no) then what harm is there? This will not, as some of the more histrionic posters would have us believe lead to assault, molestation or murder.

Edited January 5, 2013 by gl555

[DocN]

I'm sorry who are these idiots again? As long as the hazing doesn't go too far as to endanger someone's life, it's okay.

Hazing is a tradition that isn't exclusive to universities in Thailand. Why doesn't this moron go criticise someone else first?

In America these are what we would call the treehugging liberals, the same people who think fishing is animal abuse.

Singing in public? The horror of it all. I use to make them put thier underwear on thier head and take a leap of the high dive. After the beer we drank, nobody really cared or were embarrassed. Though cases do happen where jerks take it too far. But what I see it's a joke.

Actually, I see only one joke here and that is a guy, who thinks that sexual humiliation, actual bodily harming procedures and injuries, degenerating practices or deat (as reported by several members of the forum by now) is all just good clean fun!

I don't know what kind of university you actually went to but the 'hazing' that I and others went thru was all part of the fun orientation. There was nothing sexual, dangerous and degenerating about it. It was admitably sometimes embarassing but not to the extreme. A lot of these activities bring people closer together and while there are some who take it overboard, not just here but all over the world, for the most part, everything is done in clean fun.

Have you people who criticise this actually gone to school or for that matter joined any uniformed organisations?

Did you actually read some of the things, other people stated here as "eyewitness"- reports from Thai- uni's?

What part of "male students force female students to simulate fellatio" didn't you understand?

Or is it what you meant, when you said, it brings people "closer together"?

[geriatrickid]

Critics of this are sad and pathetic people who need to get a life. I have witnessed this tradition in a Thai Uni and at at no point did i see any one being coerced into doing it, in fact quite the opposite, the students seemed to greatly enjoy being a part of it and appeared to be having a jolly good time and much merriment..

To all critics, Yahboo sucks !!

Sorry, but I disagree. I have seen some of the Thai activity and it can indeed be coercive and inappropriate as well as illegal.

Some of these rituals include physical assault, humiliation and the abuse of alcohol.

As someone that has lived through some of these events in the western world, I have zero tolerance and no use for the losers with small penises that have a need to assert themselves through hazing since they can't distinguish themselves on the athletic pitch or in academic study. Those that are so into hazing IMO have a couple screws loose and morph into creeps.

[gl555]

Did you actually read some of the things, other people stated here as "eyewitness"- reports from Thai- uni's?

What part of "male students force female students to simulate fellatio" didn't you understand?

Or is it what you meant, when you said, it brings people "closer together"?

Does that happen all the time in every university? Or was it an isolated incident? I talk to my friends here about university life sometimes and all the crazy things that happen and I've never had one friend, male or female ever mention anything about having to go through this forced sexual simulation or anything other sexual act during orientation for that matter.. I saw that picture and it was disgusting. Is that the only picture and the only incident people could find? How many thousands of freshmen go through orientation every year? And you have one isolated incident and that means it's hazing and its bad.

[scorecard]

Did you actually read some of the things, other people stated here as "eyewitness"- reports from Thai- uni's?

What part of "male students force female students to simulate fellatio" didn't you understand?

Or is it what you meant, when you said, it brings people "closer together"?

Does that happen all the time in every university? Or was it an isolated incident? I talk to my friends here about university life sometimes and all the crazy things that happen and I've never had one friend, male or female ever mention anything about having to go through this forced sexual simulation or anything other sexual act during orientation for that matter.. I saw that picture and it was disgusting. Is that the only picture and the only incident people could find?

How many thousands of freshmen go through orientation every year? And you have one isolated incident and that means it's hazing and its bad.

No it's definitely not an isolated incident, every year there numerous serious unacceptable hazing incidents reported in the Thai and English language press and pretty much every year (sometimes multipe times within year) there are reports of serous sexual harrassment, forced alcohol abuse, phsical punishment and focred physical activty to the point of fainting & injury, forced eating of seriously obnoxious matter, etc.

Also regularly there are deaths, serious injury, and maiming.

Even one incident is more than enough.

[scorecard]

Did you actually read some of the things, other people stated here as "eyewitness"- reports from Thai- uni's?

What part of "male students force female students to simulate fellatio" didn't you understand?

Or is it what you meant, when you said, it brings people "closer together"?

Does that happen all the time in every university? Or was it an isolated incident? I talk to my friends here about university life sometimes and all the crazy things that happen and I've never had one friend, male or female ever mention anything about having to go through this forced sexual simulation or anything other sexual act during orientation for that matter.. I saw that picture and it was disgusting. Is that the only picture and the only incident people could find? How many thousands of freshmen go through orientation every year? And you have one isolated incident and that means it's hazing and its bad.

Suggest you extend your 'research'.

[gl555]

Did you actually read some of the things, other people stated here as "eyewitness"- reports from Thai- uni's?

What part of "male students force female students to simulate fellatio" didn't you understand?

Or is it what you meant, when you said, it brings people "closer together"?

Does that happen all the time in every university? Or was it an isolated incident? I talk to my friends here about university life sometimes and all the crazy things that happen and I've never had one friend, male or female ever mention anything about having to go through this forced sexual simulation or anything other sexual act during orientation for that matter.. I saw that picture and it was disgusting. Is that the only picture and the only incident people could find?

How many thousands of freshmen go through orientation every year? And you have one isolated incident and that means it's hazing and its bad.

No it's definitely not an isolated incident, every year there numerous serious unacceptable hazing incidents reported in the Thai and English language press and pretty much every year (sometimes multipe times within year) there are reports of serous sexual harrassment, forced alcohol abuse, phsical punishment and focred physical activty to the point of fainting & injury, forced eating of seriously obnoxious matter, etc.

Also regularly there are deaths, serious injury, and maiming.

Even one incident is more than enough.

Deaths, serious injury and maiming! Cue the histrionics and moral panic! Please enlighten us with the yearly incidents reported! There must be hundreds, maybe even thousands of these dangerous hazings that's all over the news!

There are also incidents of students getting raped in universities that have nothing to do with hazing. Let's close down universities and home school everyone. It's obvious this is a very dangerous place to send our children.

Edited January 5, 2013 by gl555

[TheWalkingMan]

For the people who have no problem with this, would you want your son/daughter to participate in these things. I think one of the posts mentioned one ritual where a senior would line up the 1st year students and spit into one of their mouths' and that person would swirl it around and then spit into then next person's mouth and so on. The "lucky one" would be required to swallow it. Would you be agreeable for your kids to indulge in this ceremony designed to bring people closer together? How about having your daughter's pubic hair burned... Is that OK with you? I am sure it would make her feel so much closer to her seniors.

I don't think most people have a problem with simple, fun hazing where no one gets hurt or is abused. The stuff I read about was disgusting and I know that if I had a kid in university, there is no way I would want them to participate.

You know, we could organize a Thai Visa hazing party for those who feel that this type of activity is fine. I am sure that there is a lot of spittle just waiting for you.

[gl555]

For the people who have no problem with this, would you want your son/daughter to participate in these things. I think one of the posts mentioned one ritual where a senior would line up the 1st year students and spit into one of their mouths' and that person would swirl it around and then spit into then next person's mouth and so on. The "lucky one" would be required to swallow it. Would you be agreeable for your kids to indulge in this ceremony designed to bring people closer together? How about having your daughter's pubic hair burned... Is that OK with you? I am sure it would make her feel so much closer to her seniors.

I don't think most people have a problem with simple, fun hazing where no one gets hurt or is abused. The stuff I read about was disgusting and I know that if I had a kid in university, there is no way I would want them to participate.

You know, we could organize a Thai Visa hazing party for those who feel that this type of activity is fine. I am sure that there is a lot of spittle just waiting for you.

The problem is orientation games are sometimes mistaken for 'hazings'. A lot of these games are fun and are nowhere near disgusting, dangerous or sexual. However, there will sometimes be people who take these games too far. And these people should be punished. However, the freshmen involved can always say 'no' and not participate. It's as simple as that. You people make it sound so insidious and it really is not.

[I Like Thai]

Any system that tries to make oneself feel better, higher, more respected by pushing others down instead of elevating oneself, harms...

The Real World harms then,

What's the point in protecting children, teenagers and young adults throughout their school years to such an extent that when they go out into the real world, they are not ready for it. There is no strict discipline code in the real world that is followed. To have one in schools, will result in the kids not being prepared for life.

When I was a kid in Primary school (7 - 13 yrs) there was a game. The older guys chased the smaller guys, captured them and locked them in prison ( a 3 walled area in a corner of the yard maybe 10 ft by 10 ft) Here they were guarded and prevented from escaping by guards whilst other boys went hunting. The object was to get as many younger guys into the prison as possible and for the younger guys it was to escape the prison, by rushing the guards when the numbers were big enough. We ran around the schoolyard at full speed during our breaks. Falling over, getting grazed knees and hands happened regularly.

Some people will call this bullying and that it should be banned, but what I remember as both the younger and the older boy is that is was great fun.

Some years later running in the schoolyard was banned in schools in Ireland, this was because there were too many Insurance claims against the schools if a child fell over and grazed a knee. I think it shameful that this has happened. Now at schools, the kids are sitting around bored or playing with their phones. Talking with their Facebook friends. This over protection of children is having a very detrimental result on child interaction in schools. I'm pretty sure that it is a similar situation in most western societies.

The children need to interact with each other, this establishes a natural hierarchy that children grow up in. Adults should stay out of this process. We were there, done that and we have moved on, don't interfere unless really needed.

When I went to Post Primary school (13 - 18yrs) things were a little different, firstly we went from beings top dogs in Primary school to being the underlings, but we were prepared from Primary school and learned to adapt quite quickly. The main hazing, was being caught by the older guys and having your head stuck in the sink and having your head wet. If the younger guy was a wriggler, then occasionally his head would hit against the tap (faucet) This was banned after about 2 years though, because children were complaining to their parents who in turn complained to the school. These were minor things and in my opinion (now) shouldn't have stopped this hazing.

The wrigglers who hurt themselves, generally came from Primary schools where the clampdown on natural child interaction had already happened. These kids then weren't prepared to Interact with the older kids from different schools and areas.

There was however another "Hazing Tradition" called "Puck's Hole".

My school was made up of 50% Boarders (lived at school and went home once a month, changed to once a week towards the end of my time there) and 50% Day pupils (went home after school everyday)

This Hazing was run and controlled by the older boarders aged 16,17 yrs and the victims were the 13 year old day Pupils (potentially me)

At lunch time the boarders captured the younger lads and locked them into a small storage wardrope at one end of a dormitory corridor. There was about 20 doors along the corridor. The boarders then stood in each doorway with a "Hurley"

The victims were released one at a time and had to run down the corridor getting hit (Pucked) in the backside (Hole) with the Hurleys

This was banned in the 1st month of me being at the school due to one of the lads having his arm broken when he put it behind him to protect himself from the Hurleys.

I never ran the gauntlet, but it came as no surprise that it was the wrigglers who always seemed to get caught and it was a wriggler that had his arm broken as well.

Most of us worked out pretty quickly that the boarders spent the first 30 minutes of lunchbreak eating their food in the boarders dining hall. They then had 15 minutes to catch victims and another 15 minutes to run them down the corridor. We basically hid in a small forest "out of bounds" at the edge of the school grounds for about 20 minutes of the lunch break.

But the wrigglers always seemed to get caught.

Puck's Hole was extreme and I'm not sure if it had been an old tradition or a new one influenced by American Frat movies (1979)

My point is that children should be left to interact with other children naturally and allow a natural pecking order to evolve, this should be closely monitored at a distance by teachers to ensure it doesn't turn into bullying. The earlier a teacher can spot a potential bully, then maybe his behaviour can be corrected at an early age.

Get rid of Bullying from Hazing, but not the hazing itself.

[longtom]

Did you actually read some of the things, other people stated here as "eyewitness"- reports from Thai- uni's?

What part of "male students force female students to simulate fellatio" didn't you understand?

Or is it what you meant, when you said, it brings people "closer together"?

Does that happen all the time in every university? Or was it an isolated incident? I talk to my friends here about university life sometimes and all the crazy things that happen and I've never had one friend, male or female ever mention anything about having to go through this forced sexual simulation or anything other sexual act during orientation for that matter.. I saw that picture and it was disgusting. Is that the only picture and the only incident people could find?

How many thousands of freshmen go through orientation every year? And you have one isolated incident and that means it's hazing and its bad.

No it's definitely not an isolated incident, every year there numerous serious unacceptable hazing incidents reported in the Thai and English language press and pretty much every year (sometimes multipe times within year) there are reports of serous sexual harrassment, forced alcohol abuse, phsical punishment and focred physical activty to the point of fainting & injury, forced eating of seriously obnoxious matter, etc.

Also regularly there are deaths, serious injury, and maiming.

Even one incident is more than enough.

Deaths, serious injury and maiming! Cue the histrionics and moral panic! Please enlighten us with the yearly incidents reported! There must be hundreds, maybe even thousands of these dangerous hazings that's all over the news!

There are also incidents of students getting raped in universities that have nothing to do with hazing. Let's close down universities and home school everyone. It's obvious this is a very dangerous place to send our children.

Maybe not hundreds or thousands, but a couple of deaths almost every year are not enough to denounce the practice?

http://thailandhazing.blogspot.com/2009/06/hazing-deaths-in-thailand-of-nirojsak.html

There are many more examples if you care to look.

[TheWalkingMan]

For the people who have no problem with this, would you want your son/daughter to participate in these things. I think one of the posts mentioned one ritual where a senior would line up the 1st year students and spit into one of their mouths' and that person would swirl it around and then spit into then next person's mouth and so on. The "lucky one" would be required to swallow it. Would you be agreeable for your kids to indulge in this ceremony designed to bring people closer together? How about having your daughter's pubic hair burned... Is that OK with you? I am sure it would make her feel so much closer to her seniors.

I don't think most people have a problem with simple, fun hazing where no one gets hurt or is abused. The stuff I read about was disgusting and I know that if I had a kid in university, there is no way I would want them to participate.

You know, we could organize a Thai Visa hazing party for those who feel that this type of activity is fine. I am sure that there is a lot of spittle just waiting for you.

The problem is orientation games are sometimes mistaken for 'hazings'. A lot of these games are fun and are nowhere near disgusting, dangerous or sexual. However, there will sometimes be people who take these games too far. And these people should be punished. However, the freshmen involved can always say 'no' and not participate. It's as simple as that. You people make it sound so insidious and it really is not.

Like I said... "I don't think most people have a problem with simple, fun hazing where no one gets hurt or is abused." Being able to say no? Sure they can, but it seems that saying no has penalties associated. And there is another problem... Join and get abused or don't join and get abused.

[gl555]

For the people who have no problem with this, would you want your son/daughter to participate in these things. I think one of the posts mentioned one ritual where a senior would line up the 1st year students and spit into one of their mouths' and that person would swirl it around and then spit into then next person's mouth and so on. The "lucky one" would be required to swallow it. Would you be agreeable for your kids to indulge in this ceremony designed to bring people closer together? How about having your daughter's pubic hair burned... Is that OK with you? I am sure it would make her feel so much closer to her seniors.

I don't think most people have a problem with simple, fun hazing where no one gets hurt or is abused. The stuff I read about was disgusting and I know that if I had a kid in university, there is no way I would want them to participate.

You know, we could organize a Thai Visa hazing party for those who feel that this type of activity is fine. I am sure that there is a lot of spittle just waiting for you.

The problem is orientation games are sometimes mistaken for 'hazings'. A lot of these games are fun and are nowhere near disgusting, dangerous or sexual. However, there will sometimes be people who take these games too far. And these people should be punished. However, the freshmen involved can always say 'no' and not participate. It's as simple as that. You people make it sound so insidious and it really is not.

Like I said... "I don't think most people have a problem with simple, fun hazing where no one gets hurt or is abused." Being able to say no? Sure they can, but it seems that saying no has penalties associated. And there is another problem... Join and get abused or don't join and get abused.

It 'seems' that saying no has penalties associated. Really? What are those penalties pray tell?

[richard10365]

I see this tradition every year and think it's a great tradition. I never see anything bad. I think if the foreigners don't like it they should go study in another country. This a Thai culture.

[I Like Thai]

For the people who have no problem with this, would you want your son/daughter to participate in these things. I think one of the posts mentioned one ritual where a senior would line up the 1st year students and spit into one of their mouths' and that person would swirl it around and then spit into then next person's mouth and so on. The "lucky one" would be required to swallow it. Would you be agreeable for your kids to indulge in this ceremony designed to bring people closer together? How about having your daughter's pubic hair burned... Is that OK with you? I am sure it would make her feel so much closer to her seniors.

I don't think most people have a problem with simple, fun hazing where no one gets hurt or is abused. The stuff I read about was disgusting and I know that if I had a kid in university, there is no way I would want them to participate.

You know, we could organize a Thai Visa hazing party for those who feel that this type of activity is fine. I am sure that there is a lot of spittle just waiting for you.

The problem is orientation games are sometimes mistaken for 'hazings'. A lot of these games are fun and are nowhere near disgusting, dangerous or sexual. However, there will sometimes be people who take these games too far. And these people should be punished. However, the freshmen involved can always say 'no' and not participate. It's as simple as that. You people make it sound so insidious and it really is not.

Like I said... "I don't think most people have a problem with simple, fun hazing where no one gets hurt or is abused." Being able to say no? Sure they can, but it seems that saying no has penalties associated. And there is another problem... Join and get abused or don't join and get abused.

You don't really get to say No in the real world after your school years either. You either learn to handle yourself in situations, learn to avoid situations or suffer the consequences if you are unable to do so. Not just in physical confrontations, but in workplace and in life generally when we interact with other people.

Hazing where someone gets injured should be stopped (not injuries from general rough play) or where one child is getting picked on by an older or group of older children on a regular basis.

Hazing should take place an all younger students in equal measures.

When I was young I saw hazing as being fun or just how things worked, rather than abuse. I think it should be the teachers role to identify bullies and take steps to stop the bullying when they are young. Do it in a positive way by trying to get to the core problem of why they are bullying. But I don't think this is a realistic thing for teachers to do.

Edited January 5, 2013 by I Like Thai

[Passiebeer]

Any system that tries to make oneself feel better, higher, more respected by pushing others down instead of elevating oneself, harms...

Obviously you have never been in a tight knit group and had to earn your way. This builds unity and pride as they said. If you are too whimpy to get out of your comfort zone. It's NOT about those doing the hazing, it's about those having to go through it.

It isn;t about how the people doing the hazing feel. It isn;t about making then feel better, it is about the new guys showing they will put up with some hardship and charactor building. Stop being so whimpy, were creating a bunch of nerds.

Luckily I never felt any urge to join a group where I "had to earn my way"... To get out of your comfort zone is not th point there are other ways to prove yourself. Just can't see how embarrassing someone else makes me feel better, makes me part of a group, makes me feel united, how my character is built in any positive way. Then again, maybe I'm too naive.. Just don't want to be part of this boasting/brawling system. Cheers for the nerds!