Foreigners Attack Hazing Ritual At Thai Universities

[webfact]

Foreigners Rip Hazing Ritual at Thai Universities




The Thai version of hazing freshmen at universities is stupid and a barbaric form of bullying, according to several foreigners attending Thai colleges. Their negative comments in the social media made it a recent hot topic.

Thailand – January 2, 2013 [PDN]; a reporter observed that a current topic generating arguments in the social online networks is the “SOTUS” system of freshman hazing at Thailand universities.

SOTUS is an acronym that stands for: Seniority, Order, Tradition, Unity, Spirit. Hazing rituals may include seniors requiring the freshmen to perform actions like singing school songs loudly in public, or performing calisthenics.

Defenders of the practice says it creates school spirit and respect for upperclassmen, as well as creating stronger bonds between the beleaguered freshmen.

But its detractors say that Sotus is a barbarous and uncivilized practice that has no practical use on a college campus. Such hazing does not develop critical thinking skills, which a college is supposed to do. As with American colleges, there is also the potential for abuse that may result in students being harmed.

For its defenders, the Sotus culture is an ideal system to train the attitudes of the university students. It has been found in some Thai universities to help fulfill the objective to let younger students pay respect to the senior students and teachers, and also to love the university and their major of studying, which will cause harmony between groups of students.

The current Sotus controversy started after a Facebook fan page of the ASEAN Community posted a story about a recent hazing ritual that described the freshman engaging in “boom shouting” and singing school songs to cheer the graduate students.

But some foreigners who witnessed similar hazings were irritated enough to post negative responses, such as, “Please give clarification to me — does the forcing of young students to shout like this, does it help to cause any development of education and thought ?” [more...]

Full story: http://www.pattayada...i-universities/

-- Pattaya Daily News 2013-01-04

[gl555]

I'm sorry who are these idiots again? As long as the hazing doesn't go too far as to endanger someone's life, it's okay.

Hazing is a tradition that isn't exclusive to universities in Thailand. Why doesn't this moron go criticise someone else first?

[Bluespunk]

Hazing is bullying.

[seajae]

you go to uni to learn, not have some idiot make you do things you dont want to. I realize it may be a tradition but we are above it and dont need people to belittle others on a whim, in some countries it is even illegal. I know if someone tried to make me do any of this crap they would end up on their backs with a few bruises, it is bullying no matter how innocent you think it is.

[SteeleJoe]

I'm sorry who are these idiots again? As long as the hazing doesn't go too far as to endanger someone's life, it's okay.

Hazing is a tradition that isn't exclusive to universities in Thailand. Why doesn't this moron go criticise someone else first?

I have mixed feelings about this -- as do the dozens of Thais I've discussed it with over the years -- but people HAVE died as a result of hazing in Thailand. And really, that's your only criteria? Anything short of potentially fatal is OK?!

Besides, it's not just about death or injury. People being FORCED to undergo this stuff and socially pressured to see it as right and good - what a perfect way to create a society of unquestioning automatons.

Anyway, it's not only foreigners who are critical -- the debate has been going on among Thais for a very long time. Is that OK or are they supposed to criticize someone else first?

Edited January 4, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[Kerryd]

Lol - what a pathetic bunch of whiners (the "foreign" students). Of course "American" universities would NEVER do anything to show pride in their school, or sports team(s), or fellow students. Shame on those Thai schools that expect freshmen to SING A SONG !

The HORROR of it all !! Off with the heads of those that show ANY pride or have ANY school spirit or follow ANY traditions !! They should ALL respect AMERICAN traditions at their THAI schools !!!!

[slapout]

The many problems encountered via hazing, throughout the world of education. is normally a result of no responsible adult supervision.

From what we hear/see, consering the antics of many of the university students, responsible behavior would probably not be considered their stronger field of study.

[Phronesis]

More research is required.

Does SOTUS interfere, IN ANY WAY, with the freshman girls wearing their little white shirts and black mini skirts?

If it does, then it must be banned IMMEDIATELY.

[SteeleJoe]

Lol - what a pathetic bunch of whiners (the "foreign" students). Of course "American" universities would NEVER do anything to show pride in their school, or sports team(s), or fellow students. Shame on those Thai schools that expect freshmen to SING A SONG !

The HORROR of it all !! Off with the heads of those that show ANY pride or have ANY school spirit or follow ANY traditions !! They should ALL respect AMERICAN traditions at their THAI schools !!!!

^^^

Ignorance.

[Phronesis]

Hmmm...

Thai freshmans are just out of Thai highschools.

So I would think the bulk of them don't have sufficient English language skills to understand the SOTUS acronym anyway.

[daiwill60]

Critics of this are sad and pathetic people who need to get a life. I have witnessed this tradition in a Thai Uni and at at no point did i see any one being coerced into doing it, in fact quite the opposite, the students seemed to greatly enjoy being a part of it and appeared to be having a jolly good time and much merriment..

To all critics, Yahboo sucks !!

[Jimi007]

Lol - what a pathetic bunch of whiners (the "foreign" students). Of course "American" universities would NEVER do anything to show pride in their school, or sports team(s), or fellow students. Shame on those Thai schools that expect freshmen to SING A SONG !

The HORROR of it all !! Off with the heads of those that show ANY pride or have ANY school spirit or follow ANY traditions !! They should ALL respect AMERICAN traditions at their THAI schools !!!!

Pathetic...

[Thai at Heart]

Lol - what a pathetic bunch of whiners (the "foreign" students). Of course "American" universities would NEVER do anything to show pride in their school, or sports team(s), or fellow students. Shame on those Thai schools that expect freshmen to SING A SONG !

The HORROR of it all !! Off with the heads of those that show ANY pride or have ANY school spirit or follow ANY traditions !! They should ALL respect AMERICAN traditions at their THAI schools !!!!

It can and normally goes way beyond singing a song.

[GentlemanJim]

Lol - what a pathetic bunch of whiners (the "foreign" students). Of course "American" universities would NEVER do anything to show pride in their school, or sports team(s), or fellow students. Shame on those Thai schools that expect freshmen to SING A SONG !

The HORROR of it all !! Off with the heads of those that show ANY pride or have ANY school spirit or follow ANY traditions !! They should ALL respect AMERICAN traditions at their THAI schools !!!!

Well perhaps the press are doing a little toning down here to 'protect' their institution and all that. This is not about students singing songs,

1. Female students forced to perform simulated oral sex on senior male students.

2. A young man died after being forced to drink huge amounts of water.

3. Some male students having to dip their testicles in chilli paste and then having their pubic hair set alight.

4. A student committing suicide after being humiliated during 'hazing'.

5. A student having his back stenciled with the college logo and then the paint was set alight! Nice!! Lots of school bonding here eh! Bet he will remember his school for the rest of his life, so will his wife and kids every time they see his back.

So............its nothing to do with singing songs, it is to do with bullying and humiliation, nobody gives a crap about singing songs. Are they still pathetic whiners Kerryd? Is it still a sarcastic shock and horror from you? If someone did that to my son above, I would end up doing jail time!

Is that a yahboo sucks Daiwill60? I think it's you that needs to get a life, not the critics.

Edited January 4, 2013 by GentlemanJim

[SteeleJoe]

My PC is acting up and I can neither C&P or link. In a moment I will try on another device but people have not only been scarred but have DIED.

Your son or daughter should face such a risk - regardless how small -- because they want to attend a university?

[Artisi]

Lets face it, the majority of freshman Thai university students are 17 / 18 years of age with a maturity of about 12 years of age, they just follow and do exactly as told and wouldn't be game enough to even question the stupidity of the majority of hazing pranks. At the university where I taught for many years the worst offenders were the engineering faculty - mindless childish hazing in the extreme - lined up for hours being shouted at in a manner that wouldn't even be tolerated in military boot-camp.

[Bluespunk]

Critics of this are sad and pathetic people who need to get a life. I have witnessed this tradition in a Thai Uni and at at no point did i see any one being coerced into doing it, in fact quite the opposite, the students seemed to greatly enjoy

being a part of it and appeared to be having a jolly good time and much merriment..

To all critics, Yahboo sucks !!

I have a friend who refused to take part. She was treated like a pariah after that and her few friends were encouraged to ditch her. The senior students don't like independence of thought and can make life hell for those who stand up to them. Hazing is about power and is a form of bullying. By all means students should be allowed to take part if they wish. They also should be allowed to say no.

[SteeleJoe]

Time allows me only this...but perhaps when I get back I can be more specific and forthcoming with relevant facts and opinions and context...

http://thailandhazing.blogspot.com/?m=1

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

[GentlemanJim]

Lets face it, the majority of freshman Thai university students are 17 / 18 years of age with a maturity of about 12 years of age, they just follow and do exactly as told and wouldn't be game enough to even question the stupidity of the majority of hazing pranks. At the university where I taught for many years the worst offenders were the engineering faculty - mindless childish hazing in the extreme - lined up for hours being shouted at in a manner that wouldn't even be tolerated in military boot-camp.

Agreed. You will notice in the photo above the poor lad was starting in an Engineering Faculty.

[RogueLeader]

It's just another way of perpetuating the rigid hierarchy of Thai society. This is, unfortunately, why Thailand (and to an even greater extent, India) are underachieving in the sciences: technology doesn't flourish in environments where communication is limited by social factors.

http://en.wikipedia....onway's_law

Conway's law is an adage named after computerprogrammerMelvin Conway, who introduced the idea in 1968. It states that "organizations which design systems ... are constrained to produce designs which are copies of the communication structures of these organizations".

Edited January 4, 2013 by RogueLeader

[happysanook]

I'm sorry who are these idiots again? As long as the hazing doesn't go too far as to endanger someone's life, it's okay.

Hazing is a tradition that isn't exclusive to universities in Thailand. Why doesn't this moron go criticise someone else first?

I agree..."Singing songs in public and calisthenics"???? these whining farang students need to get a bit of that wuss slapped out of them.

[mogoso]

Hazing is just a waste of the students time, a needless irritation and possibly a painful reminder of just how stupid people can be. A students time can be better served by drinking copious amounts of alcohol and having as many sexual partners as possible. Any extra time can be spent going to classes and studying and maybe a part time job.

[GentlemanJim]

Time allows me only this...but perhaps when I get back I can be more specific and forthcoming with relevant facts and opinions and context...

http://thailandhazin...ogspot.com/?m=1

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

Thanks Steelejoe.

For those that can't be bothered, you should, go the the link and the 'middle' entry is a good one to click on to give you an idea of what is going on. It is under 'Thursday June 11'.

[RedQualia]

"Defenders of the practice says it creates school spirit and respect for upperclassmen, as well as creating stronger bonds between the beleaguered freshmen."

Thai hazing goes well beyond "singing songs" or "performing calisthenics." "Upper classmen" who force freshmen to engage in a variety of distasteful, even harmful, activities - to generally submit in all ways to bullying, may gain submission. They do not gain respect. Nor does the university, and so nor does "school spirit" benefit in any meaningful way. A significant number of students, possibly more than half, quit in their first or second term (observed when my eldest daughter attended university here). Far from creating "stronger bonds between the beleaguered freshmen" (WHY are they beleaguered, again?), it appears to alienate said students more often than not.

If one wants their dog to love them, be loyal, etc., the way to achieve such is plain: give the dog love and respect. Treat it badly, and it will hate you.

The same is true of university students. If the Thai university system wants freshmen to "pay respect to the senior students and teachers, and also to love the university and their major of studying," so as to "cause harmony between groups of students," the way to do so is plain: treat your freshmen with respect, and they will respect you. Treat your freshmen without respect, and well... Karma can be a b*tch sometimes, as they say.

[GentlemanJim]

"Defenders of the practice says it creates school spirit and respect for upperclassmen, as well as creating stronger bonds between the beleaguered freshmen."

Thai hazing goes well beyond "singing songs" or "performing calisthenics." "Upper classmen" who force freshmen to engage in a variety of distasteful, even harmful, activities - to generally submit in all ways to bullying, may gain submission. They do not gain respect. Nor does the university, and so nor does "school spirit" benefit in any meaningful way. A significant number of students, possibly more than half, quit in their first or second term (observed when my eldest daughter attended university here). Far from creating "stronger bonds between the beleaguered freshmen" (WHY are they beleaguered, again?), it appears to alienate said students more often than not.

If one wants their dog to love them, be loyal, etc., the way to achieve such is plain: give the dog love and respect. Treat it badly, and it will hate you.

The same is true of university students. If the Thai university system wants freshmen to "pay respect to the senior students and teachers, and also to love the university and their major of studying," so as to "cause harmony between groups of students," the way to do so is plain: treat your freshmen with respect, and they will respect you. Treat your freshmen without respect, and well... Karma can be a b*tch sometimes, as they say.

Well this just led me to a conversation I had never had. I just asked my wife what happened to her as a Freshman! Oh yes, there was singing and having to make funny faces, all in front of the staff, and then there was the other side. The 'secret room', and when every week for 3 months the seniors got a bus to come outside the university and they all had to go to an undisclosed location. SImulated sex, stripping, eating shit, eating parts of poisonous insects, lining up 20 people and one senior spits a greeny into the mouth of a freshman and then they had to swill it round, add their own spit and spit it all in to the mouth of the next (all supposed to be 'fun' for the seniors', not a thought for hepatitis or any other orally transmitted disease), at points along the line certain students would have to swallow! The stories of what happened were so rife my wife spoke with her parents and her Father point blank refused her to participate. The overall results, 15 girls and 5 boys left within 2 months , my wife stuck it out. Her punishment for not participating was that she was banned from participating in any Uni event (which meant she would not receive vital 'participation' points for Graduation, she was called into the 'secret room' every day for a year and threatened and on many occasions, slapped, she was at the end of her tether and almost left, but for a teacher realising her predicament and helping out. In short her years at uni were an utter nightmare. All of those that took part in the 'hazing', loathed the University and those that made them do it.

If that is fostering school unity and spirit, then those on here that endorse 'hazing' should take a serious look at yourselves. My wife went to a good Uni, one of her friends went to a lower Uni and had a very tough time, one boy in her year being paralyzed and hospitalized for years.

I feel quite angry just now!

[BookMan]

"Defenders of the practice says it creates school spirit and respect for upperclassmen, as well as creating stronger bonds between the beleaguered freshmen."

Thai hazing goes well beyond "singing songs" or "performing calisthenics." "Upper classmen" who force freshmen to engage in a variety of distasteful, even harmful, activities - to generally submit in all ways to bullying, may gain submission. They do not gain respect. Nor does the university, and so nor does "school spirit" benefit in any meaningful way. A significant number of students, possibly more than half, quit in their first or second term (observed when my eldest daughter attended university here). Far from creating "stronger bonds between the beleaguered freshmen" (WHY are they beleaguered, again?), it appears to alienate said students more often than not.

If one wants their dog to love them, be loyal, etc., the way to achieve such is plain: give the dog love and respect. Treat it badly, and it will hate you.

The same is true of university students. If the Thai university system wants freshmen to "pay respect to the senior students and teachers, and also to love the university and their major of studying," so as to "cause harmony between groups of students," the way to do so is plain: treat your freshmen with respect, and they will respect you. Treat your freshmen without respect, and well... Karma can be a b*tch sometimes, as they say.

Well this just led me to a conversation I had never had. I just asked my wife what happened to her as a Freshman! Oh yes, there was singing and having to make funny faces, all in front of the staff, and then there was the other side. The 'secret room', and when every week for 3 months the seniors got a bus to come outside the university and they all had to go to an undisclosed location. SImulated sex, stripping, eating shit, eating parts of poisonous insects, lining up 20 people and one senior spits a greeny into the mouth of a freshman and then they had to swill it round, add their own spit and spit it all in to the mouth of the next (all supposed to be 'fun' for the seniors', not a thought for hepatitis or any other orally transmitted disease), at points along the line certain students would have to swallow! The stories of what happened were so rife my wife spoke with her parents and her Father point blank refused her to participate. The overall results, 15 girls and 5 boys left within 2 months , my wife stuck it out. Her punishment for not participating was that she was banned from participating in any Uni event (which meant she would not receive vital 'participation' points for Graduation, she was called into the 'secret room' every day for a year and threatened and on many occasions, slapped, she was at the end of her tether and almost left, but for a teacher realising her predicament and helping out. In short her years at uni were an utter nightmare. All of those that took part in the 'hazing', loathed the University and those that made them do it.

If that is fostering school unity and spirit, then those on here that endorse 'hazing' should take a serious look at yourselves. My wife went to a good Uni, one of her friends went to a lower Uni and had a very tough time, one boy in her year being paralyzed and hospitalized for years.

I feel quite angry just now!

I feel sorry for your wife going through that.

That type of initiation is rubbish, done by sadists and bullies. No place for it anywhere

[Rancid]

Hazing has a long long history in the West, can't imagine where they got the idea.

[GentlemanJim]

"Defenders of the practice says it creates school spirit and respect for upperclassmen, as well as creating stronger bonds between the beleaguered freshmen."

Thai hazing goes well beyond "singing songs" or "performing calisthenics." "Upper classmen" who force freshmen to engage in a variety of distasteful, even harmful, activities - to generally submit in all ways to bullying, may gain submission. They do not gain respect. Nor does the university, and so nor does "school spirit" benefit in any meaningful way. A significant number of students, possibly more than half, quit in their first or second term (observed when my eldest daughter attended university here). Far from creating "stronger bonds between the beleaguered freshmen" (WHY are they beleaguered, again?), it appears to alienate said students more often than not.

If one wants their dog to love them, be loyal, etc., the way to achieve such is plain: give the dog love and respect. Treat it badly, and it will hate you.

The same is true of university students. If the Thai university system wants freshmen to "pay respect to the senior students and teachers, and also to love the university and their major of studying," so as to "cause harmony between groups of students," the way to do so is plain: treat your freshmen with respect, and they will respect you. Treat your freshmen without respect, and well... Karma can be a b*tch sometimes, as they say.

Well this just led me to a conversation I had never had. I just asked my wife what happened to her as a Freshman! Oh yes, there was singing and having to make funny faces, all in front of the staff, and then there was the other side. The 'secret room', and when every week for 3 months the seniors got a bus to come outside the university and they all had to go to an undisclosed location. SImulated sex, stripping, eating shit, eating parts of poisonous insects, lining up 20 people and one senior spits a greeny into the mouth of a freshman and then they had to swill it round, add their own spit and spit it all in to the mouth of the next (all supposed to be 'fun' for the seniors', not a thought for hepatitis or any other orally transmitted disease), at points along the line certain students would have to swallow! The stories of what happened were so rife my wife spoke with her parents and her Father point blank refused her to participate. The overall results, 15 girls and 5 boys left within 2 months , my wife stuck it out. Her punishment for not participating was that she was banned from participating in any Uni event (which meant she would not receive vital 'participation' points for Graduation, she was called into the 'secret room' every day for a year and threatened and on many occasions, slapped, she was at the end of her tether and almost left, but for a teacher realising her predicament and helping out. In short her years at uni were an utter nightmare. All of those that took part in the 'hazing', loathed the University and those that made them do it.

If that is fostering school unity and spirit, then those on here that endorse 'hazing' should take a serious look at yourselves. My wife went to a good Uni, one of her friends went to a lower Uni and had a very tough time, one boy in her year being paralyzed and hospitalized for years.

I feel quite angry just now!

I feel sorry for your wife going through that.

That type of initiation is rubbish, done by sadists and bullies. No place for it anywhere

Me too! I had no idea either.

Out of interest guys, go ask your wives/gf's and dig deep, lets see just how close to the 'singing songs' story hazing in Thailand actually is!

[Thai at Heart]

"Defenders of the practice says it creates school spirit and respect for upperclassmen, as well as creating stronger bonds between the beleaguered freshmen."

Thai hazing goes well beyond "singing songs" or "performing calisthenics." "Upper classmen" who force freshmen to engage in a variety of distasteful, even harmful, activities - to generally submit in all ways to bullying, may gain submission. They do not gain respect. Nor does the university, and so nor does "school spirit" benefit in any meaningful way. A significant number of students, possibly more than half, quit in their first or second term (observed when my eldest daughter attended university here). Far from creating "stronger bonds between the beleaguered freshmen" (WHY are they beleaguered, again?), it appears to alienate said students more often than not.

If one wants their dog to love them, be loyal, etc., the way to achieve such is plain: give the dog love and respect. Treat it badly, and it will hate you.

The same is true of university students. If the Thai university system wants freshmen to "pay respect to the senior students and teachers, and also to love the university and their major of studying," so as to "cause harmony between groups of students," the way to do so is plain: treat your freshmen with respect, and they will respect you. Treat your freshmen without respect, and well... Karma can be a b*tch sometimes, as they say.

Well this just led me to a conversation I had never had. I just asked my wife what happened to her as a Freshman! Oh yes, there was singing and having to make funny faces, all in front of the staff, and then there was the other side. The 'secret room', and when every week for 3 months the seniors got a bus to come outside the university and they all had to go to an undisclosed location. SImulated sex, stripping, eating shit, eating parts of poisonous insects, lining up 20 people and one senior spits a greeny into the mouth of a freshman and then they had to swill it round, add their own spit and spit it all in to the mouth of the next (all supposed to be 'fun' for the seniors', not a thought for hepatitis or any other orally transmitted disease), at points along the line certain students would have to swallow! The stories of what happened were so rife my wife spoke with her parents and her Father point blank refused her to participate. The overall results, 15 girls and 5 boys left within 2 months , my wife stuck it out. Her punishment for not participating was that she was banned from participating in any Uni event (which meant she would not receive vital 'participation' points for Graduation, she was called into the 'secret room' every day for a year and threatened and on many occasions, slapped, she was at the end of her tether and almost left, but for a teacher realising her predicament and helping out. In short her years at uni were an utter nightmare. All of those that took part in the 'hazing', loathed the University and those that made them do it.

If that is fostering school unity and spirit, then those on here that endorse 'hazing' should take a serious look at yourselves. My wife went to a good Uni, one of her friends went to a lower Uni and had a very tough time, one boy in her year being paralyzed and hospitalized for years.

I feel quite angry just now!

I feel sorry for your wife going through that.

That type of initiation is rubbish, done by sadists and bullies. No place for it anywhere

Me too! I had no idea either.

Out of interest guys, go ask your wives/gf's and dig deep, lets see just how close to the 'singing songs' story hazing in Thailand actually is!

A close friend of mines daughter went to the local uni. They had to do cheering for 24 hours in an open air sports court, disrobing a piece of clothing every hour.

A couple of girls collapsed. She left after a term and went to Australia. until that story, i couldn't believe the level of hazing here. Surely this has to constitute torture?

[Jingthing]

I feel this is a case of a purely INTERNAL Thai matter that foreigners had best keep their noses out of.

About hazing. I feel I have missed something not being properly initiated so was clearly damaged for life. At my college the only "hazing" I got had something to do with a bong. Refer to the film: Dazed and Confused.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Jingthing