Coping With Sexism In Thailand

[MacChine]

I have not insinuated the banking professionals are cheaply paid.Only they are paid less than men,

It occurs to me maybe that's why they are women dominated ? Cheaper to hire..?

What I claimed, for the third time, cheap labor , in urban settings, in repetitive tasks ,

( and yes, include entry level banking ) is usually women as they will accept less pay than men.

And the women you know -all well and good, but are they making less money than the men? Betcha, and probably by quite a bit. Which is possibly why there are so many more than men.

I think you've just proved you've no idea what you're talking about when it comes to women in Finance Accounting and Banking in Thailand.

Should we ever meet I'd love to take you up on your bet.

Should you ever meet the educated, intelligent professional women in these industries, my bet is you'd either offend them, alienate them, or be politely smiled at and laughed at in your absence - or possibly all the above - with your comments. They're well paid and there on merit, in what Thai people generally see as "women dominated professions" - definitely not there as cheap labour. Example: last bank I worked for: lady working for me: late twenties USD 4k a month++; CFO upwards of USD 15k a month++. Ladies paid on same scale as men for same performance and roles. No differentiation.

[fletchsmile]

I have not insinuated the banking professionals are cheaply paid.Only they are paid less than men,

It occurs to me maybe that's why they are women dominated ? Cheaper to hire..?

What I claimed, for the third time, cheap labor , in urban settings, in repetitive tasks ,

( and yes, include entry level banking ) is usually women as they will accept less pay than men.

And the women you know -all well and good, but are they making less money than the men? Betcha, and probably by quite a bit. Which is possibly why there are so many more than men.

I think you've just proved you've no idea what you're talking about when it comes to women in Finance Accounting and Banking in Thailand.

Should we ever meet I'd love to take you up on your bet.

Should you ever meet the educated, intelligent professional women in these industries, my bet is you'd either offend them, alienate them, or be politely smiled at and laughed at in your absence - or possibly all the above - with your comments. They're well paid and there on merit, in what Thai people generally see as "women dominated professions" - definitely not there as cheap labour. Example: last bank I worked for: lady working for me: late twenties USD 4k a month++; CFO upwards of USD 15k a month++. Ladies paid on same scale as men for same performance and roles. No differentiation.

Would you care to show some facts to demonstrate your claims about banking in Thailand? Or perhaps share some first hand experiences of banking in Thailand?

My claim is that:

1) you have some pre-conceived ideas brought with you from overseas perhaps based on finance, accounting and banking in other countries, and actually know nothing about the industry here.

2) you really don't understand why the profession is female dominated in Thailand, and really do not understand this aspect of Thailand.

There were actually quite a few things in your original post that were just plain wrong, but as this is an industry I've spent many years in here in Thailand, I'm comfortable correcting your misconceptions with facts and experience. They also stereotype Thai women, and do a disservice to them by your implications that they only get where they are by being cheaper, or doing jobs men don't want

[fletchsmile]

I wish I could offer a solution for the OP.

Moving jobs would seem the sensible option to me.

Not that she should need to....but its not just a Thailand issue imho.

Women have much to offer in a working environment with skills men often do not possess or sadly recognise. I work in an area where 80% of the workforce is female and have rarely felt discriminated against.

Things WILL change in Thailand....but likely not quickly enough for the OP in her current position.

Interesting, Are you saying you've never felt discriminated against, or the women you work with never felt discriminated ? ( and how would you know this? )

Wonder if those women make as much money as the men? Usually when a company employs mostly women, it's so as to pay them less. Typically the work is repetitive and tedious, everything from garment workers to data entry.

As for things changing, I think T land will e quite a bit behind the times. ,the refusal to offer Ms. for instance, in ID or official records. In addition to the ingrained cultural mores, it has a foreign influx of distressingly extreme sexists that are often raising daughters to accept this attitude.

Most of the foreign guys I know here raise their daughters with a notion that they are equal to boys. Much more on average I'd say than Thai guys. Equality is a mixed bag in Thailand. To generalise western guys have grown up with the notion of equality over the last few decades, in Thailand less so. So if anything on average a western guy in Thailand will have a stronger sense of equality for his daughters than the average Thai guy.

Personally I would welcome more western females in Thailand as role models for our daughters. One issue is that there are much fewer western females in Thailand, and for those around, one thing I don't want them brought up with though is prejudices (male or female) brought from overseas and imposed here.

Many females like you, and possibly OP need to better understand Thailand, and how things are here.

You/ she will find there are western males sympathetic to gender equality. What you need to guard against is being overly hostile and aggressive to all men generally as a result. If you don't you'll find yourself in situations that guys who might otherwise be sympathetic to your causes will just avoid you. The result is your preconceived attitudes become self-fulfilling. The nice guys avoid you, and you're left isolated with the sexist jerks you despise.

Thailand generally doesn't like confrontation. Decent western guys who've been here a while recognise this and often adjust their behaviour accordingly. So in the same way as Thais, will just avoid the confrontations.

Fletch

Edited April 13, 2013 by fletchsmile

[fletchsmile]

As for things changing, I think T land will e quite a bit behind the times. ,the refusal to offer Ms. for instance, in ID or official records. In addition to the ingrained cultural mores, it has a foreign influx of distressingly extreme sexists that are often raising daughters to accept this attitude.

BTW on the titles, what's your point?

A Thai girl is "nangsao". Since 2008: A Thai married or divorced woman can choose either "nangsao" or "nang"

A Thai boy is "nay". A Thai married man is "nay" = no choice

So women can choose to keep their title the same on marriage (like men) or have the extra choice of showing the world they are married. If a Thai lady doesn't want people to know, from 2008 she just chooses "nangsao"

[Sheryl]

Personally I would welcome more western females in Thailand as role models for our daughters. One issue is that there are much fewer western females in Thailand, and for those around, one thing I don't want them brought up with though is prejudices (male or female) brought from overseas and imposed here.

Many females like you, and possibly OP need to better understand Thailand, and how things are here.

You/ she will find there are western males sympathetic to gender equality. What you need to guard against is being overly hostile and aggressive to all men generally as a result. If you don't you'll find yourself in situations that guys who might otherwise be sympathetic to your causes will just avoid you. The result is your preconceived attitudes become self-fulfilling. The nice guys avoid you, and you're left isolated with the sexist jerks you despise.

Thailand generally doesn't like confrontation. Decent western guys who've been here a while recognise this and often adjust their behaviour accordingly. So in the same way as Thais, will just avoid the confrontations.

Fletch

A lot of truth in this, I think.

The "sexist jerks" (for want of a better term) are highly vocal and egotistical/ domineering in general attitude (not just regarding matters of gender ) and these traits give the impression of there being more of them than is actually the case.

I would have to say, though, that the "silent majority" of men, in addition to the factors mentioned, are taking the easy way out in not speaking up when the SJs behave badly. In some situations it is indeed the best choice, but in others it is rather cowardly. For example, saying nothing when a SJ makes an inappropriate comment to a female coworker gives the impression you concur with that behavior.

There is no need to seek these idiots out to argue with nor to engage in theoretical debates with them, but standing silent at the "scene of the crime" is another matter and a bit more cojones is in order on the part of some, IMO.

[isawasnake]

"I think expats have a tendency to overestimate their numbers and comparative influence in Thailand."

This is so true. That "do foreigners take all the good Thai women" thread proved that without a doubt. I mean, what an overestimation that is. What % of the population do these guys think they make up here?

[geriatrickid]

Although some foreign males may demonstrate some of the negative behaviours cited, I suggest that it is not particularly common in the under 35 crowd. If you notice, this age group usually socializes in mixed gender groups. I was recently out "socializing" on Thai version of a picnic with several of the hospital admin people in Udon. Lots of drinking iced down beer, true, but the group included women and they were not intimidated by us boys.

I think the biggest issue is the discrimination tolerated in employment practices in respect to age, physical characteristics, and skin colour in addition to gender. Gender discrimination is but one aspect of the employment practices. I am fortunate in that such discrimination does not touch me personally. When one needs a highly specialized person, one does not have the luxury of setting idiotic criteria based upon gender etc.

One aspect of this constant denigration of western women has always puzzled me: Would the men offering up such nasty statements dare say such things to their mothers, sisters, aunties or grannies? Boys talk trash when not in the presence of the maternal one. I know several professional girls that can hold their own with the boys and have thick skins, but they also won't put up with stupidity. Maybe it is time that some of the western professional ladies stopped being so timid and relaxed. If they were given the job, they were obviously good enough and needed for that job. Why have doubts. Just carry on and if some jerk is obnoxious, too bad. Life is too short to worry about such people.

[fletchsmile]

Personally I would welcome more western females in Thailand as role models for our daughters. One issue is that there are much fewer western females in Thailand, and for those around, one thing I don't want them brought up with though is prejudices (male or female) brought from overseas and imposed here.

Many females like you, and possibly OP need to better understand Thailand, and how things are here.

You/ she will find there are western males sympathetic to gender equality. What you need to guard against is being overly hostile and aggressive to all men generally as a result. If you don't you'll find yourself in situations that guys who might otherwise be sympathetic to your causes will just avoid you. The result is your preconceived attitudes become self-fulfilling. The nice guys avoid you, and you're left isolated with the sexist jerks you despise.

Thailand generally doesn't like confrontation. Decent western guys who've been here a while recognise this and often adjust their behaviour accordingly. So in the same way as Thais, will just avoid the confrontations.

Fletch

A lot of truth in this, I think.

The "sexist jerks" (for want of a better term) are highly vocal and egotistical/ domineering in general attitude (not just regarding matters of gender ) and these traits give the impression of there being more of them than is actually the case.

I would have to say, though, that the "silent majority" of men, in addition to the factors mentioned, are taking the easy way out in not speaking up when the SJs behave badly. In some situations it is indeed the best choice, but in others it is rather cowardly. For example, saying nothing when a SJ makes an inappropriate comment to a female coworker gives the impression you concur with that behavior.

There is no need to seek these idiots out to argue with nor to engage in theoretical debates with them, but standing silent at the "scene of the crime" is another matter and a bit more cojones is in order on the part of some, IMO.

I'm usually quite happy with my own moral compass on this one. It's important, though, to understand the environment you're in and the context. That also includes a lot more dimensions than just male/ female Thai/non-Thai, when it comes to a Thai workplace.

As a senior guy for me, It's quite easy to speak out as you say in obvious cases. I don't look so much at simple "rules" for myself as there are so many factors, and it comes down to your own moral compass and judgement. Some of the things I look at:

For a western guy: A simple: "hey come on there are ladies present", or "that's not really appropriate in present company" usually suffices if he's out of order in front of others. If a guy persistently needs this in the office, then I'll try and avoid his company as it doesn't reflect well on any of us.

For Thais acting inappropriately it may sometimes be better to point it out quietly one on one later, rather than there and then, particularly if of a higher perceived status.

For western women it depends. If she's unfairly being targeted on on the receiving end then she gets support from me as above. If she's someone with a chip on her shoulder who speaks antagonistically and is aggressive or confrontational and initiates the issues, I've no qualms in telling her that her comments are out of place either. Or taking her on one side for a little counselling if new to town. Women with a persistent chip on their shoulder, who can't take some friendly advice and counsel, are the ones I'm referring to that I avoid. Basically just avoid putting myself in a situation where I have to get involved with them.

Some people deserve support and speaking up for some don't. Of course there's always the minimum standards and rights everyone should have regardless.

I also find it useful to bear in mind what I'd hope people would do if it was my daughters, wife or mum. Then again I wouldn't expect them to get support either if they're out of order.

Not a topic you can summarise in a few words, though, as it's a complex area.

"Seek to understand before seeking to be understood"...is worth remembering

Fletch

Edited April 15, 2013 by fletchsmile

[MacChine]

^

Despite your aggressive posturing, lengthy posts and claims my opinion cannot possibly be of any value, you have yet to answer my point that Thai women professional, or otherwise are paid less than men. Just like in the west.

And sorry, men who, more often than not abandon families and children in the west for the sole purpose of procuring younger Thai partners, are not shining examples of the male feminist. These boards are a great example, (and Fletch's responses specifically ) of the high level of sexism of the male expatriate in Thailand. ( all of SEA really, as it is about prostitutes, and/or finding partners who do housework .)

Interesting is when I do a search of pay equity of Thai women, I get pages mostly of forum talk on how much to pay for a Thai bride !!

However I'll turn to ol Wiki.

.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_inequality_in_Thailand#Gender_wage_disparity_in_Thailand

The gender wage differentials in Thailand declined in the early 1990s. The trend reversed after the 1997 Asian financial crisis. The main source of the existing differentials is discrimination.^[18]
As of 2007, among non-agricultural sector workers in Thailand, women
received 92% of the average wage of men compared to 65.4% in 1990.^[7] Women's wages in the manufacturing sector as of 2008 were 80% of men's and were 72% in 2000.^[19]

As Darity and Mason (1998) point out, the potential sources of the
narrowing of the gender wage gap are a comparative decline in men’s
wages to women’s wages; an increase in human capital of women; and the
legal pressure against discrimination. The difference in work experience
is also an important cause of gender pay gap.^[20]
In Thailand, the gender wage differential is larger when experience
premiums are accounted for. Men with work experience receive
significantly higher wages than women with the same work experience.^[18] This implies gender wage discrimination.

Edited April 16, 2013 by MacChine

[MacChine]

As for things changing, I think T land will e quite a bit behind the times. ,the refusal to offer Ms. for instance, in ID or official records. In addition to the ingrained cultural mores, it has a foreign influx of distressingly extreme sexists that are often raising daughters to accept this attitude.

BTW on the titles, what's your point?

A Thai girl is "nangsao". Since 2008: A Thai married or divorced woman can choose either "nangsao" or "nang"

A Thai boy is "nay". A Thai married man is "nay" = no choice

So women can choose to keep their title the same on marriage (like men) or have the extra choice of showing the world they are married. If a Thai lady doesn't want people to know, from 2008 she just chooses "nangsao"

Well it's nice Thai women have a choice to announce their marital status on their title, but why do they have to do it at all is my point.

And foreign women are expected to claim Mrs.and Miss and if you don't understand why that's sexist, I cannot possibly hope to explain it to you.

No culture expects men to have their marital status attached to their name. Until quite recently, very few cultures provided the same privacy to women.

Mr. or Ms. , thank you- please trash the Miss and Mrs. Miss particularly is odious

[geriatrickid]

As for things changing, I think T land will e quite a bit behind the times. ,the refusal to offer Ms. for instance, in ID or official records. In addition to the ingrained cultural mores, it has a foreign influx of distressingly extreme sexists that are often raising daughters to accept this attitude.

BTW on the titles, what's your point?

A Thai girl is "nangsao". Since 2008: A Thai married or divorced woman can choose either "nangsao" or "nang"

A Thai boy is "nay". A Thai married man is "nay" = no choice

So women can choose to keep their title the same on marriage (like men) or have the extra choice of showing the world they are married. If a Thai lady doesn't want people to know, from 2008 she just chooses "nangsao"

Well it's nice Thai women have a choice to announce their marital status on their title, but why do they have to do it at all is my point.

And foreign women are expected to claim Mrs.and Miss and if you don't understand why that's sexist, I cannot possibly hope to explain it to you.

No culture expects men to have their marital status attached to their name. Until quite recently, very few cultures provided the same privacy to women.

Mr. or Ms. , thank you- please trash the Miss and Mrs. Miss particularly is odious

That is your western view. You fail to take into account the concept of status. It is just as equally important to be known as the spouse of a high position woman. One of my associates is quite proud to be known as the husband of his accomplished wife and he benefits from it.

BTW, there really is no general rule for the the Miss term in Thailand as Khoon is applied for Mr. Miss and Mrs.

The use of the term Miss in some asian countries is meant as politeness, nothing more. Most women I know, don't care about the term used as long as their is inherent politeness and basic respect intended. The ssue of "Miss" brings to mind my dealings with German professionals that insist on the use of the formal term Herr Doktor in meetings. Rather pretentious to me and giggle provoking to the Scandanavians at the time, but oh so very important to the engineers and lawyers at the table.

Edited April 16, 2013 by geriatrickid

[fletchsmile]

As for things changing, I think T land will e quite a bit behind the times. ,the refusal to offer Ms. for instance, in ID or official records. In addition to the ingrained cultural mores, it has a foreign influx of distressingly extreme sexists that are often raising daughters to accept this attitude.

BTW on the titles, what's your point?

A Thai girl is "nangsao". Since 2008: A Thai married or divorced woman can choose either "nangsao" or "nang"

A Thai boy is "nay". A Thai married man is "nay" = no choice

So women can choose to keep their title the same on marriage (like men) or have the extra choice of showing the world they are married. If a Thai lady doesn't want people to know, from 2008 she just chooses "nangsao"

Well it's nice Thai women have a choice to announce their marital status on their title, but why do they have to do it at all is my point.

And foreign women are expected to claim Mrs.and Miss and if you don't understand why that's sexist, I cannot possibly hope to explain it to you.

No culture expects men to have their marital status attached to their name. Until quite recently, very few cultures provided the same privacy to women.

Mr. or Ms. , thank you- please trash the Miss and Mrs. Miss particularly is odious

This is a great example of an issue that should be parked at immigration on entering the country, and the importance of understanding we're in Thailand now. It's a western problem, with a western history and very little importance to many Thais. What you've done is take a product of the western battle of the sexes and brought it here along with pre-conceived attitudes. I see your point in the west, and understand the background, and the history. I'd also support a woman's right to use Ms. if she wanted to.

We're in Thailand now though. You claimed Thailand is backward because it doesn't have a term for Ms, without actually taking the time to understand what most Thais think or that the Thailand 2008 Act in many ways is a sensible one and a better solution.

Thai women actually now have a choice men don't. They can choose to keep their title or adopt a new one to show marital status. For many this would be a no-lose situation, but somehow you seem to be trying to interpret having a choice as a disadvantage. For me it's all about giving my Thai wife and daughters choices here in Thailand, so they can have the same rights. Objective achieved on that one. Still more work needed in other areas. But why try to create problems where there aren't and bring unnecessary baggage?

Of course the simple answer if their "must" be one, and if we can park pre-conceived western ideas for a moment, is to give men in Thailand a choice to show their marital status or not. Then everyone would have exactly the same rights, and be equal

Have you ever thought for a moment that some of us guys would welcome the chance to to display marital status in our title? In Thailand in particular I'd welcome it.

Fletch

Edited April 16, 2013 by fletchsmile

[Sheryl]

As noted, "Khun" is the most commonly used honorific and in other than official documents, this gender and marital status neutral term is what is used.

Certainly there are significant gender issues in Thailand but I think it is for Thai women to define what they are and which ones have priority. While discrimination based on gender is almost worldwide, the forms it takes do vary by country.

I have heard and read concerns expressed by Thai women and women's groups around rape, domestic violence and sexual harassment, the latter in both the workplace and in schools -- and relevant to what the OP described.

Can't say I have heard much said around the Nang/Nang sao issue.

[Boo]

I don't think the Miss, Mrs, Ms issue is that much of a big deal in the west either. I have never had a friend or aquaintence mention it & every single woman I know when married changed to her Husbands name or a hyphenation of it & took on the Mrs moniker. If it were that much of a hot ticket issue there would be many more women taking on the cause.

[MacChine]

I would ask why then do women customarily change their names to the man's ? Isn't it part of the cycle of violence and inequity -women as things to be owned.

Sure it's customary, sexism is customary. ( Sin-Sod anyone? )

And why name your painfully born, 9 months bearing off the seeder and not yourself ?

Seems that is as sexist as it gets !!

Like Mrs./MIss --it's a legal definition, based on sexist mores.

FletchSmile I'll say again, I do not have the choice of "no statement of marriage status"

It's either Miss, or Mrs, whatever the Thai language equivalent is.

Men are not made to establish a marital status, that's sexism. Whether the subject of sexist titling is considered by the average Thai woman? Probably not, I agree.

She's too busy cleaning after her 9 -5 er to think about it !!

Edited April 17, 2013 by MacChine

[Boo]

When marrying, at least in UK, a woman has the choice to change her name or not, I beleive the same is in Thailand. My point is that every woman I know has wanted to change her name & has done so. Nothing sexist about it, it is entirely her choice.

I changed all my official documents when I married yet used my maiden name for work for 9 years after with never an issue. You'll have to take my word for this but there has never been a suggestion that I am owned or a subject to violence relating to my name.

The whole Miss, Ms, Mrs thing is an issue for some people obviously but I personally think there are bigger fish to fry. If I were that bothered by it though I would just forgo a title entirely or if asked, tick the MR box.

[Sheryl]

Regardless of whether you have kept your own name or taken your husband's last name, you still have the option of Ms as opposed to Mrs.

Most of my friends and acquaintances in farang-land kept their names after marriage. This may be because they are all professional women and usually had well established careers prior to marriage so it would have been problematic to do otherwise. A few hyphenated.

Personally I did take my (ex) husband's name for the very simple reason that it was a vast improvement over my maiden name, which was unpronouncable, and I was tired of having trouble figuring out when my name was being called, always having to spell it out, etc. I had no fondness for it and didn't view it as any more "mine" than my husband's last name since after all, it was my father's name, not something unique to me. Just the way i saw it. I married young and was not yet professionally established, so there was no downside to the change. After I divorced, I kept it and frankly in the long run it was probably one of the best things I got out of that marriage.

[fletchsmile]

As noted, "Khun" is the most commonly used honorific and in other than official documents, this gender and marital status neutral term is what is used.

Certainly there are significant gender issues in Thailand but I think it is for Thai women to define what they are and which ones have priority. While discrimination based on gender is almost worldwide, the forms it takes do vary by country.

I have heard and read concerns expressed by Thai women and women's groups around rape, domestic violence and sexual harassment, the latter in both the workplace and in schools -- and relevant to what the OP described.

Can't say I have heard much said around the Nang/Nang sao issue.

Totally agree, and also that it's for Thai women to decide on, as to what they consider discrimination or not.

My wife would share the concerns you raise on rape in particular, and it's a sad reflection of society that she doesn't like to take a taxi home by herself at night, and will usually avoid something that puts her in that situation. She prefers to take a bus, if for some reason taking the car isn't convenient. The stigma attached to a woman who is raped is also twisted.

Domestic violence she recognises as in issue, but in a Thai sort of way doesn't/ wouldn't get involved. Sexual harassment happens, though I haven't seen much of it myself. I have may own views on all these and would say in general I'm probably less tolerant/accepting than her of these issues. There are definitely roles any half decent western guy (or woman) can play in these situations.

As we educate our daughters on these things when they're older I suspect I'll have a tougher stance than my wife to be honest, and we'll sometimes have different views on how to approach things, and what's "for the best". We'll both be aiming for a better life for them and equality though, and so that they are empowered with choices.

Fletch

Edited April 17, 2013 by fletchsmile

[fletchsmile]

I would ask why then do women customarily change their names to the man's ? Isn't it part of the cycle of violence and inequity -women as things to be owned.

Sure it's customary, sexism is customary. ( Sin-Sod anyone? )

And why name your painfully born, 9 months bearing off the seeder and not yourself ?

Seems that is as sexist as it gets !!

Like Mrs./MIss --it's a legal definition, based on sexist mores.

FletchSmile I'll say again, I do not have the choice of "no statement of marriage status"

It's either Miss, or Mrs, whatever the Thai language equivalent is.

Men are not made to establish a marital status, that's sexism. Whether the subject of sexist titling is considered by the average Thai woman? Probably not, I agree.

She's too busy cleaning after her 9 -5 er to think about it !!

Look, we both agree women should have equal rights. What you're illustrating again here is:

1) the need to understand the point we're in Thailand now and not where you came from

2) most Thais see things differently

3) often the only person that will see it as a problem is you. When everyone else has no problem you have to challenge yourself as to whether you're the problem

4) when you come across as confrontational in Thailand it's often not the right approach. You also risk alienating yourself

5) even guys who agree with you will walk away and not want to get involved if your attitude is continually hostile

6) As Sheryl pointed out the battle was fought in the west and more equality gained. Many of us look back and realise there could have been a better way and it came at a cost. Thailand actually represents an opportunity to do better this time round for many of us as it's new territory.

7) For me it would also be great to bring up 2 daughters with a sense of equality and fairness without them seeing guys as the enemy

8) I happen to believe that we'll get rid of inequality quicker if a) sometimes western women park the hostile approaches (and men too of course) you recognise that sometimes it may be give and take in the best approach to reach that goal - not just your way because as a western woman you've already learnt all the lessons and know best c) some form of acknowledgement that men get discriminated against too even though often less than women, would help build bridges. Simply saying women have it worse doesn't help and doesn't make it right to discriminate against men d) it's better to work together on it

9) Sometimes your approach does a disservice to women in Thailand and actually detracts from the goal of equality, when you perpetuate stereotypes. I don't want my daughters brought up educated the only get jobs just because they're cheaper than men for example. Sometimes that might be true. In the case of banking, finance etc for example that's simply not true. Thailand views things differently on different jobs. They need facts not preconceived ideas to fit stereotypes and blanket statements

Lastly as a western educated guy brought up on the need for equality and accepting that makes sense, with a Thai wife, and two daughters in Thailand, who happen to be the 3 most important people in my life, it's a bit silly to accuse me of sexism against Thai women. OK maybe I don't put it as clearly as I could - this is a website - but think about it for a moment:

-. 3 most important people in my life. female. Thai. I probably have more of an interest in you and most non-Thai women on here too in eliminating sexism against Thai women.

Now if I can help western women in Thailand like OP along the way, that would obviously be nice and the right thing to do too. So you/ OP other women may not always like what I say, and I might make mistakes sometimes, but the intent to get it right is definitely there even if I disagree on the approach, and you don't like it because it's not your way of doing things.

Sometimes the way I see western women on the Thai gender equality is that they could be a great part of the solution to the problem, and be great role models. On the other hand if they don't take time to understand how things are, there are times they just become part of the problem.

That sums up my take. OP did ask for comments from western guys too

Fletch

[fletchsmile]

I would ask why then do women customarily change their names to the man's ? Isn't it part of the cycle of violence and inequity -women as things to be owned.

Sure it's customary, sexism is customary. ( Sin-Sod anyone? )

And why name your painfully born, 9 months bearing off the seeder and not yourself ?

Seems that is as sexist as it gets !!

Like Mrs./MIss --it's a legal definition, based on sexist mores.

FletchSmile I'll say again, I do not have the choice of "no statement of marriage status"

It's either Miss, or Mrs, whatever the Thai language equivalent is.

Men are not made to establish a marital status, that's sexism. Whether the subject of sexist titling is considered by the average Thai woman? Probably not, I agree.

She's too busy cleaning after her 9 -5 er to think about it !!

BTW to answer specifically:

Most Thai women don't see the name change the way you do. Many western women also take a balanced and similar view as Sheryl and Boo highlighted. The "cycle of violence and inequity" is just the way you see it, and what you've brought with you. I don't know many Thais think like you. My wife doesn't.

The law was changed in (2005?) in Thailand so women have a choice on names like choice on title. The choice is a good thing, and empowerment.

At our dinner table tonight, as an experiment I asked 3 female viewpoints. I asked my wife what she thought, and why she would choose to change name. She wanted to show we were married and have the same name as it was better for us as a family. Her choice. I asked the 6 year old and she said mummy should have the same name as daddy. The 4 year old said we're a family so should have the same name and generally she's always proud we have the same name and are a family. She loves that concept. Now someone can argue that my wife "shouldn't have to change", or "shouldn't have to choose", and that the girls are "too young to know better" or whatever.

Key point: The fact remains we're all happy and have no problem. The only people that have a problem with this are certain women who say what it "should be...". And to add: I see my wife as an equal, want my kids to have equal rights, and would happily change my name if asked to maintain the balance.

Fletch

[fletchsmile]

BTW2: As to Sinsod?

A lesson on that one. I really don't think you understand the concept at all. It's actually much more about face than anything else. Additionally Thais view it as a nice tradition and just the way things are. Think of it this way: while some western women may grow up with the idea of a white wedding, for many Thai women a similar dream is having a sinsod that brings face to her family.

One thing it is not in normal Thai eyes, is "buying a wife". Some of the reasons behind the tradition are:

1) Money would often go to the parents, this was to compensate them for losing a daughter and help ensure they are looked after in old age as the daughter was no longer living with them, so a daughter would be very proud to help her parents.
2) Another reason is as a sort of insurance in case the marriage went wrong, so the woman would have some protection.
3) Another reason is to prove and ensure the husband has the means to look after the wife
So none of these are "selling a daughter" or "buying a wife", or "treating women as commodities" or "objects" or any of those things - if anything they benefit the wife's side and look after her and family interests.
4) And of course face being a big issue. A huge matter of pride.

Now over the years the reasons change, and tradition changes, and practice differs, but those are some of the factors historically, and some intentions behind the tradition.

If you told a Thai family they were selling their daughter they would be hugely insulted. They really don't see it that way. Many don't know our way either.

To share a personal experience on that one I learnt a lot on this subject first hand and not just about SInsod either, but what's important to be happy in Thailand:

The idea of "paying for my woman" who I was marrying felt uncomfortable. That's the way I'd been brought up, and as I later realised had been "pre-conditioned". So I can fully understand the western perspective on that.

I'd been to Thai-Thai weddings before and seen Sinsods, but I thought being a foreigner it was a bit different. So I had that famous conversation with my future wife "I love you more than anything in the world", "we don't do that where we came from" and "it felt like buying a wife" so it felt wrong. I explained how we westerners married for love and I would honour their daughter for the rest of my days. Marriage of equals and all that. Her mum and brother looked at me in a way like I was an alien, and it was pretty clear even saying that "it felt like buying a wife" was pretty insulting even at the idea.

I'd temporarily shattered any idea of a white wedding in my wife's eyes so to speak. So her mum and brother left and we said we said we'd talk things over. She was in tears, saying she loved me and wanted to be married, and it was also clear in her eyes how important the family was. I think I could probably have "got my way".

That was one of those times you realise: you thought you were right, but everyone else had a different opinion. So you either stick with your pre-conceived ideas and see everyone else as wrong, or accept you could be the problem. When I thought it over - sure I'd also heard horror stories - but it was really a no-brainer. Stick with my preconceived ideas or accept I could be "wrong" and go with a tradition. So albeit a bit late I decided it was my attitude that was "the problem" and decided to pay a Sinsod. Not a time for arguing who is right or wrong, just focus on the goal

In hindsight an excellent decision, and also a great lesson in culture, and of course learning from mistakes. Her brothers had paid to their wives her sisters received from their husbands, and also cousins etc. Sure in my eyes it did originally feel like "buying a wife", but sometimes you have to realise you don't always see things as they really are and have to trust others, especially Thais on Thai matters in Thailand, as they see things differently.

So I see the the foreigner point of view as "buying a wife" or "sexist", even the history and implications.

But sorry that view is just plain wrong and ignorant from a Thai perspective.

Fletch:)

Edited April 17, 2013 by fletchsmile

[sbk]

Guess it depends on whree you live and who you hang out with fletch as none of the Thai people I know have ever kept the sinsod as compensation for losing a daughter and every single one has given the money to the newlyweds as a means to start their new life together and as far as my over 20 years of living here have given me to believe, this is the only reason for sin sod. At least among the people where i live who don't believe in living off their children.

As for the name change, I am very proud of my name but it is unpronounceable for Thai people, it quite literally took the professional translator over half an hour to figure out how to spell it in Thai. My husband's name is short, simple and easy to pronounce for everyone. so I changed my name for very practical reasons, as did Sheryl. I think to tar all women with a single brush is more than unfair.

However, to assume that because you teach your daughters to consider themselves equal and capable will somehow eliminate the sexism and discrimination they face is extremely naive and something a women would never ever believe. You are not a woman Fletch, and no matter how understanding you think you are you can never ever grasp what it means to be a woman. I don't pretend to understand what it means to be a man and what it means to rarely have to worry that I will be assaulted if I appear vulnerable to the wrong weirdo.

[FDog]

Personally I don't care for name changes or things like that, that is up to the woman and sometimes she may like or not like the last name of the man. Completely up to her.

But....what I don't like is the generic term of 'actor'. It confuses me so much.

Whatever happened to Actor and Actress?

Now I hear of some person being called and Actor and with all the odd names these days I have absolutely no idea if they are male or female.

And yes, it does matter to me if they are male or female. Just like in the women's forum where lots of ladies are salivating over Bruce Spreenstein. Us guys are also allowed to look, or is that us being sexist.

[fletchsmile]

Yes on Sinsod, it does vary for a variety of factors. I've seen loads of variations kept/given back paid/not paid. What I outlined is the mainline historical tradition. I'm aware you're in the South, and that there are different cultural influences there too. North (Chiang Mai) and North East (Isaan) tend to be looked at more (rightly or wrongly) as the custodians of Thai traditions, compared to central like BKK who have moved on to more city based. South is more Muslim and Malay influence historically. The best guide is ask what the extended family do.

Not sure about your comment on tarring all women with the same brush. That was certainly not my intention, and yes I agree doing so would be unfair.

Nope I don't think I will eliminate sexism in Thailand. In fact the whole point is its Thailand and their country. What I mean is that's what I want for my daughters. I will bring them up so they believe they have every right to be equal. I believe that and hope to pass on that belief. Hopefully they will believe in themselves and teach their daughters as well. I'd be delighted if the equality goal was reached in my lifetime. It won't be, but some goals are just that way - funnily enough it was a Thai that once told me that us westerners tend to expect goals to be achieved in one lifetime. Life isn't like that. I believe women and men have a right to be equal. That much I can achieve in teaching them.

I've seen your point on "not being a woman" so "not being able to grasp" many times. Think about if for a moment, and it's pretty irrelevant though:

- To find any one single person that truly understands another completely would be very rare anyway - regardless of gender. I remember a wise phrase you also quote (think it was you anyway from your dad about not understanding what's going on in another man's head and another man's bed

- You will also never understand what it is like to be a "Thai woman". You're not Thai and never will be.

No harm in trying to understand as much as we can about other people though. What I would say is I understand my Thai wife much better than many people I've ever met, including many western women. It's also clear that some western women understand less about Thailand and Thai women generally than western men do.

Yes, I know you have a lot of knowledge about Thailand, so obviously I'm not tarring you with that brush either. I would also say you probably understand your Thai husband better than me

Some people also have higher levels of empathy than others too.

BTW I would say I understand what it's like to risk being assaulted by a weirdo - it happens to men too. I have some idea what my female friends think about it. Some idea my mums view. Some ideas my wife and so on. No I don't understand any of them 100% as my own feelings, but like with anything make an effort to understand if it's important to you. "In the long run we shape our lives and shape ourselves. This process never ends.... " Totally agree:) I choose to take responsibility for trying to understand others too

Fletch

Edited April 17, 2013 by fletchsmile

[sbk]

Irrelevant? Oh never mind, PWG syndrome again

[MAJIC]

I don't think the Miss, Mrs, Ms issue is that much of a big deal in the west either. I have never had a friend or aquaintence mention it & every single woman I know when married changed to her Husbands name or a hyphenation of it & took on the Mrs moniker. If it were that much of a hot ticket issue there would be many more women taking on the cause.

I believe you are correct,how one titles themselves is no big deal anymore,however there are those that go to ridiculous lengths to be super PC,like the UK Council Office Receptionist who will only be known as "Sara Stafford" No! Mrs, Miss, Ms,pathetic or what?

Wonder how she gets along when it comes to applications,when it calls for: please tick the box Mr Mrs Miss Ms?

[fletchsmile]

Irrelevant? Oh never mind, PWG syndrome again

So have you met 2 people yet that understand each other 100% and can experience each others feelings and emotions in exactly the same manner ?

Just wondering also. In your view who would better understand how a woman who had suffered domestic violence felt about the situation of domestic violence:

a) a woman who has no first hand experience of domestic violence and rarely if ever come across someone who has

b ) a man who had suffered domestic violence and abuse daily from his wife for many years?

Fletch:)

BTW Lost me completely on PWG - googled it but still none the wiser

Edited April 18, 2013 by fletchsmile

[Halsted6]

PWG = privileged white girl

(http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pwg)

[Halsted6]

Irrelevant? Oh never mind, PWG syndrome again

So have you met 2 people yet that understand each other 100% and can experience each others feelings and emotions in exactly the same manner ?

Just wondering also. In your view who would better understand how a woman who had suffered domestic violence felt about the situation of domestic violence:

a) a woman who has no first hand experience of domestic violence and rarely if ever come across someone who has

b ) a man who had suffered domestic violence and abuse daily from his wife for many years?

Fletch:)

BTW Lost me completely on PWG - googled it but still none the wiser

Really? Domestic violence now? Where hasn't this argument gone...sigh

[fletchsmile]

Here's one for you SBK, or anyone else for that matter,

This probably better illustrates the point I was trying to get at earlier. On another thread, Boo made a statement

... Good luck with your fertility treatment, as a mother I would say just having a healthy one is the important thing....

Now I would say as a father I can definitely relate to that, and was about to say I totally agree then thought of this thread. Also we had risks of our child being born with complications and I'd say I was much more relieved than most when our baby was born healthy. Now neither of us is in exactly the same situation: you've never had a child born, nor had to worry about it being born healthy or not, so you've never had the experience. On the other hand I'm not a woman but have had similar experiences and feelings, made more intense also by circumstancies. Neither of us is 100% the same as Boo:

So would you say, as a woman who has never had children yourself you can better understand what it's like to be Boo as a woman who's baby is born healthy because you too are a woman?

or

As a father I can better relate to a Boo's feelings of having a baby born healthy, because I may not be a woman but I have definitely shared similar feelings. Including wondering every single day will my baby be healthy or not.

I'd welcome any one else's thoughts too. That's what I was trying to get at.

Fletch:)

Edited April 18, 2013 by fletchsmile