Coping With Sexism In Thailand

[MAJIC]

2. Gender discrimination laws are a two way street. I am an attractive fit "body builder" type guy and I've had women grope my muscles many times, not even just in a night life setting. I don't cause any sort of fuss over it, simply try to deflect their advances with a smile. And please don't say something as stupid as, "But it is different you are a man," because that is real discrimination.

Surely, you can't believe what you're shoveling. There is a HUGE difference between a man and a woman's perception of a great many things, such as groping and physical touching, cat-calling, and the like. This is not a PC thing, but a factual thing. Unless I'm misreading you, you sound like you're from the dark ages. This makes your credibility suspect if you can't grasp this basic concept.

Believe it or not ?Men don't like to be groped either, that's the real facts! and believe me I have had it done to me many times in my lifetime,and usually it's from someone not in the least attractive!

[driedmango]

I don't groop or cat call, neither do most men. I have been a victim of it by women at times.. I have been treated badly because of my sex from women many times.. I don't think you get that I think western women have become pretty similar to men you talk about

[Boo]

oh sigh,

The op was about a women having issues with men in her office, posted on the ladies section so FYI, to try to dismiss the op's concerns with your own anecdotal stories doesn't invalidate her problem.

Had you offered her advice on how to deal with these colleagues instead of just hijacking the thread to complain about how YOU have had this happen to you for no other reason imo than to try to invalidate the op's concerns then this post wouldn't be happening.

This is ultimately the problem with some men on this forum imo, when a women posts a problem they might be having, they (male poster) posts how THEY have had something happen to them. This always looks to me to be an attempt to undermine the op & deflect attention from the op.

So here we go, a little reminder for those of you who are still a little in the dark ages about this stuff; Having genitalia on the outside does not make YOUR experience MORE important that than anyone else m'kay

Just to clarify, This post was for the benefit of the few men on this forum who are unable to let go of whatever issues they might have with women & western women in particular or who still think that women are not worthy of equal human rights. This is aimed at them,if you do not meet the above criteria then you have no reason to be upset or offended,

[Sheryl]

Yes, it is a shame that a woman can't post in the only forum specifically for women to get other women's input without the thread being overrun by...what it has been overrun by.

I note that the OP hasn't been heard from in 2 pages now. No wonder.

[cicinette]

I totally agree with you, and the way few men have replied to your post is a good exemple.

Farang here are used to treat thai women with no respect, since thai women are used to it, not being respected by thai men at the first place, so after few months, years, they treat all women the same way.

Nobody ask them to make any effort in Thailand, so why bother ?!...I have talked about that with expats male and female, and we both know it is true. Just as an exemple, last time I went shopping I had to carry heavy boxes, thai and white men around, you think someone would have helped me ?! of course no....another time, I was queuing to get a drink, and behind were sitting around 5 young/old white men...talking about their prostitutes, prices, making fun of them etc...few women were around, they didnt give a shit, disguting..i could go on and on....so yes, sexism is all around...I still love thailand though

[driedmango]

I totally agree with you, and the way few men have replied to your post is a good exemple.

Farang here are used to treat thai women with no respect, since thai women are used to it, not being respected by thai men at the first place, so after few months, years, they treat all women the same way.

Nobody ask them to make any effort in Thailand, so why bother ?!...I have talked about that with expats male and female, and we both know it is true. Just as an exemple, last time I went shopping I had to carry heavy boxes, thai and white men around, you think someone would have helped me ?! of course no....another time, I was queuing to get a drink, and behind were sitting around 5 young/old white men...talking about their prostitutes, prices, making fun of them etc...few women were around, they didnt give a shit, disguting..i could go on and on....so yes, sexism is all around...I still love thailand though

men should help you with your boxes ? Why no women help me with my boxes in my life ? Women cops could beat me up if they wanted to, I am not super man, and many Thai women are respected.. the pm is female

[MacChine]

Thailand is amongst last refuge for thoroughly *** besotted creatures, and every Thai based forum is full of them going berzerk when you mention it.

Edited March 23, 2013 by sbk
keep it clean, thanks

[MacChine]

I suggest you don't only make demands, but reflect on what other causes you want to back in return for support for yours. There are some more people around not treated equal. The poor. Minorities. The immigrants. The disabled. Gays, for some reason they want to marry. And the largest group, the 99%. What can be done to bring equality to all? Beefing up welfare, perhaps? Undoing all the damage done by deregulation. Bringing back into the public domain all the industries, services and resources outsourced to private interests for the last century. A minimum wage that secures a decent standard of life, nothing luxerious. And to pay for it all, a considerable tax hike on the wealth the rich have stolen from us?

Don't you think this whole sexism thing that's suddenly all over the place is designed to set women and men up against each other, in order to distract from larger issues?

Hardly sudden, unless you mean on T based forums. And against .. like slaves are against masters? Like corporate whores to regulation?

What issue is larger than 52 % of the population being treated like it's 15 % ? Fix that and the endless war and stupid colonial era capitalist MALE violence policies might end

[cicinette]

I totally agree with you, and the way few men have replied to your post is a good exemple.

Farang here are used to treat thai women with no respect, since thai women are used to it, not being respected by thai men at the first place, so after few months, years, they treat all women the same way.

Nobody ask them to make any effort in Thailand, so why bother ?!...I have talked about that with expats male and female, and we both know it is true. Just as an exemple, last time I went shopping I had to carry heavy boxes, thai and white men around, you think someone would have helped me ?! of course no....another time, I was queuing to get a drink, and behind were sitting around 5 young/old white men...talking about their prostitutes, prices, making fun of them etc...few women were around, they didnt give a shit, disguting..i could go on and on....so yes, sexism is all around...I still love thailand though

men should help you with your boxes ? Why no women help me with my boxes in my life ? Women cops could beat me up if they wanted to, I am not super man, and many Thai women are respected.. the pm is female

Sorry about that, of course the pm being a woman changes everything...that's exactly what makes western men being very respectful toward women...

[FDog]

OP, I worked in Oz in a female dominated office. The guys decided we would do 'lunch' every Friday. Just go to a bar, eat, have a couple of beers and then back to work. The boss had no objections.

After a few weeks the women started complaining that we were in a 'boys' club. So the boss told the girls that they should also go out for whatever they wanted to do every Friday. Well they didn't do anything, they just wanted to bitch about our 'boys' club. That was all they wanted to do.

OP, seems to me that the HR people at your company didn't do their job properly as they employed the wrong person. Sometimes HR employs people simply on their credentials instead of how they fit in with the culture of the company and what it wishes to achieve.

HR made a big error in employing you as you obviously don't fit in to their culture. Just look for another job where your view is compatable with the company's view.

[Boo]

that's quite a leap you made there. So based on this one topic & knowing nothing about the op in real life you determine that she isn't suitable to do her job.

So by default I could say that when you worked in that OZ job you weren't suitable as you didn't condsider the environment you worked in & were not sensitive to your female collegues concerns so you HR department failed in employing someone who had a problem working with women.

See how that works.

[smokie36]

I wish I could offer a solution for the OP.

Moving jobs would seem the sensible option to me.

Not that she should need to....but its not just a Thailand issue imho.

Women have much to offer in a working environment with skills men often do not possess or sadly recognise. I work in an area where 80% of the workforce is female and have rarely felt discriminated against.

Things WILL change in Thailand....but likely not quickly enough for the OP in her current position.

[Konini]

I wish I could offer a solution for the OP.

Moving jobs would seem the sensible option to me.

I don't think there is a solution, so moving job would be the only way this could have a happy ending. I learned over many years that you just can't change that mindset, no matter what you do so don't don't waste your time trying.

I honestly think in another 2 or 3 generations it will be a thing of the past, but I really do think it will take that long.

[sbk]

I wish I could offer a solution for the OP.

Moving jobs would seem the sensible option to me.

I don't think there is a solution, so moving job would be the only way this could have a happy ending. I learned over many years that you just can't change that mindset, no matter what you do so don't don't waste your time trying.

I honestly think in another 2 or 3 generations it will be a thing of the past, but I really do think it will take that long.

Considering its farang she is talking about and not Thais I don't think that is the issue here.

[MacChine]

I wish I could offer a solution for the OP.

Moving jobs would seem the sensible option to me.

Not that she should need to....but its not just a Thailand issue imho.

Women have much to offer in a working environment with skills men often do not possess or sadly recognise. I work in an area where 80% of the workforce is female and have rarely felt discriminated against.

Things WILL change in Thailand....but likely not quickly enough for the OP in her current position.

Interesting, Are you saying you've never felt discriminated against, or the women you work with never felt discriminated ? ( and how would you know this? )

Wonder if those women make as much money as the men? Usually when a company employs mostly women, it's so as to pay them less. Typically the work is repetitive and tedious, everything from garment workers to data entry.

As for things changing, I think T land will e quite a bit behind the times. ,the refusal to offer Ms. for instance, in ID or official records. In addition to the ingrained cultural mores, it has a foreign influx of distressingly extreme sexists that are often raising daughters to accept this attitude.

[Sheryl]

I think expats have a tendency to overestimate their numbers and comparative influence in Thailand. Certainly it is true that there is some selective migration of western men with blatantly sexist attitudes/hostility towards women (not that all expat men coming here fit that description, of course) but while they may at times succeed in overrunning a forum like this one, their influence on Thailand and Thai culture is IMO negligible.

Thai women will make their way towards more equality with time and in their own way. How long that will take, I don't know, but it won't be effected either way by expats, be they sexist or sympathetic.

In the West, my generation opted for a very assertive push for the rights of women and minorities. While that battle is far from over, we got enormous progress in a comparatively short time; I'm living a life my mother's generation couldn't have dreamt of. In the case of women's rights, this did come at a price in terms of some hard feelings and tensions between the sexes. I don't see this among the younger generation but it is definitely true in my own. While unfortunate it was still worth it IMO and better than harmonious relations at the expense of the human potential of 50% of the population. But that's my view as a westerner with a westerner's typically individualistic outlook. Thai culture places a much higher premium on social harmony and is much more averse to confrontation so we are not likely to see Thai women go at the business of claiming their rights in the way western women did. Change will come more slowly as a result but perhaps also with less fallout. Just my two cents.

[FDog]

that's quite a leap you made there. So based on this one topic & knowing nothing about the op in real life you determine that she isn't suitable to do her job.

So by default I could say that when you worked in that OZ job you weren't suitable as you didn't condsider the environment you worked in & were not sensitive to your female collegues concerns so you HR department failed in employing someone who had a problem working with women.

See how that works.

How is it a leap to determine she isn't suitable for the job? Does she like working there? If no, then she isn't suitable for it. But I guess that's too simple for you.

My HR employed me because I fit in with the staff. It wasn't up to me to determine the wants or needs of other staff, they can do whatever they want, none of my business. Why should I have to be sensitive to what a female employee wants to do in her own time? Nothing to do with me, I don't care, she can do whatever she wants.

Same as I can do whatever I want as it has nothing to do with work. It was simple jealousy, something you seem to have in spades.

Instead of worrying about what the men are doing why not just concentrate on what YOU are doing. Make sure YOU are happy. That is why she doesn't fit in with her job, she is not happy with their culture. HR's fault for not seeing that.

Simple, she can leave to a job where here vision is more in line with company culture and policy.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Sheryl
flaming opening remark removed per forum rules

[Boo]

seems I touched a nerve there. too bad for you.

[tombkk]

Networking does not occur on Soi Cowboy. Male bonding does.

Networking does occur at informal events, such as the Rooftop, GOYP, and other events. There is no discrimination against women there.

More structured networking occurs at the morning meetings of BNI. In our chapter, there are just over 50% of female members.

Sent from my LG-P698f using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[driedmango]

Women have a much better life in Thailand then the west all around. Western women are marketed to way more, some are forced to work while also having to do housework and pick the kids up, living single with kids is the biggest burden a person could face, western women in the most popular music in the west are called %-%+% and %+-$(...

In Thailand women have owned companies and the like for hundreds of years, they get support from extended family with kids...

Western women have been forced to take on all the worst parts of being a man, and a women...

Women treat women better in Thailand also. Women in the west are brainwashed to be so full of purpose and have work ethic.. having to much of that and also having to look pretty makes a boring shell of a human that is why the most unhappy person in the world is the overworked over stressed western women in her late 30s , no hope to marry or have kids only hope to learn some yoga classes to taste what the good life of a clam mind is like.

The good thing is it is finally acceptable to be a stay at home dad if you choose and attend art class while the women brings the bacon and fixes the roof.

Edited April 8, 2013 by driedmango

[Boo]

what? gawd. you might want to put that cliche to bed, it seems very tired!

[fletchsmile]

I wish I could offer a solution for the OP.

Moving jobs would seem the sensible option to me.

Not that she should need to....but its not just a Thailand issue imho.

Women have much to offer in a working environment with skills men often do not possess or sadly recognise. I work in an area where 80% of the workforce is female and have rarely felt discriminated against.

Things WILL change in Thailand....but likely not quickly enough for the OP in her current position.

.... Usually when a company employs mostly women, it's so as to pay them less. Typically the work is repetitive and tedious, everything from garment workers to data entry.

...

I guess you've zero exposure to banking, finance and accountancy profession in Thailand then. First finance department I worked for 18 ladies no guys. Last one about 70 women and a handful of guys. These are intelligent women who make it on their own merit and ambitions. They don't need western stereotypes thrust upon them and are quite happy with their choices. Ask them would they like to be an engineer (male dominated profession) and most say no. They'd be pretty insulted to hear views like yours, saying they're only employed because they're cheap.

What you describe in terms of garment workers is a class and poverty issue rather than a gender one. Their boyfriends and husbands are in equally dead end jobs, and also exploited. Just your average downtrodden Thai guy is no good with a sewing machine, so ends up as a motorcycle messenger or some other form of manual labour instead.

Nor is it an education access issue either. There are more women bachelors degree holders in Thailand than men, and the school life expectancy (pre-uni) is slightly higher for girls than boys.

[MacChine]

Women have a much better life in Thailand then the west all around. Western women are marketed to way more, some are forced to work while also having to do housework and pick the kids up, living single with kids is the biggest burden a person could face, western women in the most popular music in the west are called %-%+% and %+-$(...

In Thailand women have owned companies and the like for hundreds of years, they get support from extended family with kids...

Western women have been forced to take on all the worst parts of being a man, and a women...

Women treat women better in Thailand also. Women in the west are brainwashed to be so full of purpose and have work ethic.. having to much of that and also having to look pretty makes a boring shell of a human that is why the most unhappy person in the world is the overworked over stressed western women in her late 30s , no hope to marry or have kids only hope to learn some yoga classes to taste what the good life of a clam mind is like.

The good thing is it is finally acceptable to be a stay at home dad if you choose and attend art class while the women brings the bacon and fixes the roof.

I agree women having an unfair burden is .. a burden. Maybe why so many all over the globe are saying no to partners and children, and some are not even shaving their legs GASP !!

I wish I could offer a solution for the OP.

Moving jobs would seem the sensible option to me.

Not that she should need to....but its not just a Thailand issue imho.

Women have much to offer in a working environment with skills men often do not possess or sadly recognise. I work in an area where 80% of the workforce is female and have rarely felt discriminated against.

Things WILL change in Thailand....but likely not quickly enough for the OP in her current position.

.... Usually when a company employs mostly women, it's so as to pay them less. Typically the work is repetitive and tedious, everything from garment workers to data entry.

...

I guess you've zero exposure to banking, finance and accountancy profession in Thailand then. First finance department I worked for 18 ladies no guys. Last one about 70 women and a handful of guys. These are intelligent women who make it on their own merit and ambitions. They don't need western stereotypes thrust upon them and are quite happy with their choices. Ask them would they like to be an engineer (male dominated profession) and most say no. They'd be pretty insulted to hear views like yours, saying they're only employed because they're cheap.

What you describe in terms of garment workers is a class and poverty issue rather than a gender one. Their boyfriends and husbands are in equally dead end jobs, and also exploited. Just your average downtrodden Thai guy is no good with a sewing machine, so ends up as a motorcycle messenger or some other form of manual labour instead.

Nor is it an education access issue either. There are more women bachelors degree holders in Thailand than men, and the school life expectancy (pre-uni) is slightly higher for girls than boys.

Cheap urban labor employed for repetitive tasks is usually women is actually what I said.

And the women you know -all well and good, but are they making less money than the men? Betcha, and probably by quite a bit. Which is possibly why there are so many more than men.

[MacChine]

I think all things have an effect, there's a lot , and for a long time. I think Thailand is influenced by outsiders constantly .

Imagine if a law were enacted giving incentives to foreign women to come here - would that have an affect ? I think so , a very positive affect- I think that's a great idea !!

So may I ask do you call yourself a feminist? Once upon a time, all young women were feminists, but I've noticed it is no longer an acceptable term in the male dominated internet , to announce feminism as modus is to incur automatic wrath and ridicule.

Some of it, as evidenced by da' boyz on the thread, depressingly unimaginative

I think expats have a tendency to overestimate their numbers and comparative influence in Thailand. Certainly it is true that there is some selective migration of western men with blatantly sexist attitudes/hostility towards women (not that all expat men coming here fit that description, of course) but while they may at times succeed in overrunning a forum like this one, their influence on Thailand and Thai culture is IMO negligible.

Thai women will make their way towards more equality with time and in their own way. How long that will take, I don't know, but it won't be effected either way by expats, be they sexist or sympathetic.

In the West, my generation opted for a very assertive push for the rights of women and minorities. While that battle is far from over, we got enormous progress in a comparatively short time; I'm living a life my mother's generation couldn't have dreamt of. In the case of women's rights, this did come at a price in terms of some hard feelings and tensions between the sexes. I don't see this among the younger generation but it is definitely true in my own. While unfortunate it was still worth it IMO and better than harmonious relations at the expense of the human potential of 50% of the population. But that's my view as a westerner with a westerner's typically individualistic outlook. Thai culture places a much higher premium on social harmony and is much more averse to confrontation so we are not likely to see Thai women go at the business of claiming their rights in the way western women did. Change will come more slowly as a result but perhaps also with less fallout. Just my two cents.

Edited April 10, 2013 by MacChine

[fletchsmile]

And the women you know -all well and good, but are they making less money than the men? Betcha, and probably by quite a bit. Which is possibly why there are so many more than men.

I think you've just proved you've no idea what you're talking about when it comes to women in Finance Accounting and Banking in Thailand.

Should we ever meet I'd love to take you up on your bet.

Should you ever meet the educated, intelligent professional women in these industries, my bet is you'd either offend them, alienate them, or be politely smiled at and laughed at in your absence - or possibly all the above - with your comments. They're well paid and there on merit, in what Thai people generally see as "women dominated professions" - definitely not there as cheap labour. Example: last bank I worked for: lady working for me: late twenties USD 4k a month++; CFO upwards of USD 15k a month++. Ladies paid on same scale as men for same performance and roles. No differentiation.

Edited April 10, 2013 by fletchsmile

[Boo]

2 attempts at trolling removed. If you can't abide by the rules of the ladies forum then stay away.

[sbk]

And the women you know -all well and good, but are they making less money than the men? Betcha, and probably by quite a bit. Which is possibly why there are so many more than men.

I think you've just proved you've no idea what you're talking about when it comes to women in Finance Accounting and Banking in Thailand.

Should we ever meet I'd love to take you up on your bet.

Should you ever meet the educated, intelligent professional women in these industries, my bet is you'd either offend them, alienate them, or be politely smiled at and laughed at in your absence - or possibly all the above - with your comments. They're well paid and there on merit, in what Thai people generally see as "women dominated professions" - definitely not there as cheap labour. Example: last bank I worked for: lady working for me: late twenties USD 4k a month++; CFO upwards of USD 15k a month++. Ladies paid on same scale as men for same performance and roles. No differentiation.

So, are you saying that because one profession pays equally that makes it ok to pay women less in others? Or are you saying that because one profession pays equally there for that must then apply to all others as well? Not exactly sure what your point is here, tbh

[farang000999]

The best thing you can do is work hard and hope that your work speaks for itself. If you work for a company where your work matters less than how much you made everyone laugh the other day, then find a better place to work. There are many farang female CEOS in Thailand.

[Boo]

off topic posts removed. the ladies forum is not the place to air your issues with "western feminists" m'kay

[MacChine]

The best thing you can do is work hard and hope that your work speaks for itself. If you work for a company where your work matters less than how much you made everyone laugh the other day, then find a better place to work. There are many farang female CEOS in Thailand.

Absolutely. And are they making less money?

I think many of the male users really aren't aware of what sexism comprises. If women have made it to the the upper levels, you can bet they worked harder, and were paid less much of the way.

Maybe if a man is deformed or in some other way impaired from birth, he might have the perspective required to see how women are denigrated, in all cultures, but especially so in Asian .

Who's cleaning the house? Or who is making sure it gets clean? ( figuratively) That is women's role.

Edited April 13, 2013 by MacChine