Coping With Sexism In Thailand

[CanadianGirl2]

My mother (a business woman in a male dominated field) gave me advice some years ago about advancing my career: learn to play golf! Many of her business deals and networking events are on the golf course. It’s just part of doing business now. Quite unfortunate for those of us who hate the game. I'd rather play poker!

[rene123]

I was always a tomboy so I got along well with boys and men. I'm not sure if I can be of any help to the OP, though. Small minded men tend to do the things the OP talked about. My only reply is to ignore them. It is their problem. Any man that lays his hands on me without an invite will get a punch or a slap. But, I've only had that happen once and it was in Canada.

Networking can be important in the business world and for that reason alone it might be wise to learn golf, even if you don't like the game. Any networking going on in girly bars isn't worth the time spent. That goes for men as well. But, a woman has a lot going for her just by being female. Smart men like to be around attractive, intellegent women who can laugh easily and don't mind the odd risque joke, providing it's not done continually. Dealing with sexual harrassment is another issue that some women can handle easily with a smile, but a warning not to go too far. Other women bristle and cause confrontation when it's not needed.

I don't know enough about Thai men in the office to give any worthwhile replies, but farang men will understand what I am saying. And, those that don't are twirps who will NEVER get anywhere in the real world of business.

[BookMan]

Any networking going on in girly bars isn't worth the time spent. That goes for men as well.

Time spent in these bars with other guys, in a business sense, generally results in some bonding experiences I have found. You become 'one of the guys' or 'someone who can be trusted' type of thing. I have had direct experience of this with boozy nights out.

But, a woman has a lot going for her just by being female. Smart men like to be around attractive, intellegent women who can laugh easily and don't mind the odd risque joke, providing it's not done continually.

I agree.

[CMTourist]

As a fellow female expat I can relate to some of what you say, although thankfully much of it is not applicable to my company, nor most of those that other female expat friends work in.

To pick up on your specific points:

- I've not found networking to occur in girlie bars, etc. at MNC's or with large Thai/Asian companies. With clients it is centred round going for a nice meal, very occasionally a drink after (but never a girlie bar), or golf. And yes, this is where I feel somewhat left out as a significant amount of business and networking both with clients and internally happens on the golf course and the expat guys will go and play golf at the weekend with each other. It creates a bit of a barrier as you have this expat golfing management clique. That said I do not think it's too dissimilar to the West as a lot of business gets conducted on the golf course there too! The doing business in girlie bars, in my experience (and also that of my dad and uncle who do a lot of business in the Asia), seems to be limited to Thai based SMEs dealing with other SMEs or low level 'management' in a bigger corporation. It sounds like you have been unfortunate and ended up working with a bunch of folk that have been here too long and lost touch with reality, or they are working with clients/customers of a similarly low standing.

- The sexual harassment thing absolutely doesn't happen in my office, nor does talking badly about women, Thai, Asian, Western or otherwise. I work in a very male dominated profession and find Thailand quite refreshing. Whereas the gender balance in our London and NYC office is 25% female:75% male amongst professional staff here in BK (our Asian HQ) it's 80% female:20% male! I reiterate: you're working with a bunch of wanke_rs.

- The 'he'll leave you' comments and 'you won't last here'. Ignore them: sour grapes. The muppets spouting this nonsense were warped individuals before they even set foot in the Kingdom. The myths that perpetuate this nonsense arise from when folks mix in very narrow social circles and start to believe 'their world' to be the only reality. Thailand attracts a diverse range of people, alas the most vocal minority tends to be the elderly male keyboard warrior or sexpat. For everyone of them there are several more folks here in happy stable relationships leading very normal lives, often with families, and too busy getting on with life to feel the need to troll here or make insidious comments whilst out and about

My advice: if you're working for a MNC and have been transferred here then speak to your HR department from where you came and address the inconsistencies in global policy, but do so professionally. If you have an appraisal process then also use this to raise these issues in a constructive manner.

I hate to say it though but it sounds like you have ended up in a crappy workplace/company and if there is no recourse available from an overseas HQ then I would find something else: life is too short to deal with idiots like you describe when there are plenty of other opportunities around. And on the bright side it is still far easier for a professional expat woman to find work here than it is for a man as there are never any questions marks about what your real motivations are for being here and generally you're treated with a lot more respect.

As someone who has worked for a while in Thailand as well as in the US and UK I can agree that in Thailand I have found that the only networking that takes place in girlie bars is with foreign visitors who want to be taken out to experience the night life. The locals do not visit girlie bars and all socialising takes place in "respectable" establishments.

There is no more sexual discrimination here than I saw in the West. On the contrary, if you look at the number of women on Board positions in public companies it is far higher here in Thailand than in the US or UK. A fact many should look at before they put Thai women down or dismiss them as soft or submissive. (Or decry Thai men as sexist)

There is no more sexual harassment here than I saw in the West. Its not infrequent that someone is a dick, but there are as many here as there were in offices in the UK, and actually not many in either place and I've never seen the kind of behaviour, innapropriate touching etc., that is routinely trotted out as harassment, more like clumsy flirting. What I do find is that some Thai women, especially the young and attractive ones, will be very flirty and giggly until they realise it doesn't work on me, then they settle down.

To be frank, you sound like who is quick to find offense and wanting everything your own way. Throwing around loaded terms such as harrassment, discrimination, sexism, etc., I'd probably be wary of letting my guard down around you as well.

In any work environment you have to go along to get along to a large degree and the key skill of a leader/manager is getting people to follow you and agree with you. In the West you could use the enormous threat of crying sexism to get people to do what you want, you don't have that crutch here and now its time to find out whether you really are any good at working with people without that support or whether you actually don't have the skills.

[Lucie]

I have no axe to grind.

Seems you have.

When I moved here I left the western world behind.

I enjoy every minute new experience, new culture,new mindset.

You can't change a country you are a guest in by burning your bra.

Close the door on the way out.

Don't leave the toilet seat down.

She's not complaining about the Thai people, but expats who leave their politically correct culture behind and stoop to gutter level just because the local female population largely doesn't complain. YOu may be "enjoying every minute, new experience, new culture, new mindset" - but perhaps that's because it favours YOU. If you were the one being patronised, degraded and put down, I don't think you'd like it either. It seems YOU are the kind she's talking about...

[cgphuket]

Looks like you picked one of the few countries where women don't have the upper hand. When I left the USA, being a straight, white, male was the lowest point on the food chain with affirmative action, PC requirements and diversity sensitivity. In the US I worked in female dominant career environments and experienced close to what you describe; against men (straight men, gay men are their own special protected club). In fact, I worked as "interim" director of a university minority student services department for two years, when I asked to be appointed full-time as I was doing a good job I was told (off the record) I was the wrong color and gender to officially hold the job, but keep up the good work as a temp (if I had been a black women I could have been president of the college). At least you can stay go to 80% of the countries in the world and your gender gives you an unfair advantage...

[cgphuket]

However, I do agree that most of the expats I have met in positions of authority in Thailand are complete idiots and low-lifes that couldn't hold a job in a car-wash back in the west. The only was they got their jobs is by partying with the owners...

[sbk]

You know this old chestnut about the poor endangered discriminated against white male in the west is just that. A chestnut. It has been proven by evidence that even women straight out of college with exactly the same education, qualifications and experience as men will still make less.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2012/1127/Gender-pay-gap-is-eroding-especially-among-younger-women-US-data-show

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2012/1024/Does-gender-pay-gap-exist-Right-out-of-college-says-new-study

Regardless this thread is not about the wage gap nor about the poor misused white guy. I

ts about men behaving badly and behaving unprofessionally in the workplace which is, IMO never excusable.

[Fookhaht]

My mother (a business woman in a male dominated field) gave me advice some years ago about advancing my career: learn to play golf! Many of her business deals and networking events are on the golf course. It’s just part of doing business now. Quite unfortunate for those of us who hate the game. I'd rather play poker!

This was exactly the trick learned by one of the best business women I knew in the male-dominated industry of Japanese trading companies. She held her own on the golf course, earned their respect, and gained an audience for her products, which she sold in the millions ($) to them.

I hated golf (still hate it to this day), but under her tutelage, learned to play the game, and make it count in business. A wonderful mentor.

[Fookhaht]

<p>

You know this old chestnut about the poor endangered discriminated against white male in the west is just that. A chestnut. It has been proven by evidence that even women straight out of college with exactly the same education, qualifications and experience as men will still make less.

http://www.csmonitor...en-US-data-show

http://www.csmonitor...-says-new-study

Regardless this thread is not about the wage gap nor about the poor misused white guy. I

Agreed. This thread is not about that. So why did you bring it up?

But since you did: I am a white male and I worked in a couple of female-dominated work-groups in the west and experienced severe reverse discrimination near the start of my work career. I was even "eased out" of one position because I didn't respond to the romantic advances of the female supervisor assigned as my trainer. This was 15 years before "Disclosure," where the problem was so aptly dramatized by Michael Douglas and Demi Moore's performances.

The end of the story is a good one, however. I got a position in another division at a higher salary with greater responsibility, thanks to the help of a savvy human resources officer who knew the score and was collecting evidence. Later the female mid-manager and her "trainer-supervisor" were let go because of "improprieties in the workplace." Today, they would have faced legal charges.

To bring the topic back to front-and-center: Let's get real here. We're not talking about a male-behavior or a female-behavior problem. We're talking about the human condition--which discriminates in any scenario where a minority is trying to survive in a majority environment. The source of discrimination may be gender-driven, religious, social-status, cultural, racial or ethnic.

In view of the broader problem, I propose we elevate this discussion above the sexist barbs being thrown by both sides here. It just muddies the real issue.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Fookhaht

[sbk]

because previous poster chose to bring up the poor misused white guy tired old argument.

OPs main issue is clearly she is in a company that not only turns a blind eye to poor behavior by "poor misused white guys" but seems to encourage it. Extremely unprofessional in this day and age. If it were me I would tell them to grow up, its not junior high.

[MacChine]

Well you're in a country where expats are 98% male and most of those men are in "&lt;deleted&gt;" land for the obvious reasons-cheap sex and/or wives who act as personal body servants, so you will have to accept you are dealing with the absolute dregs of western masculinity who are severely threatened by women who don't view attracting males as the most important objective in the world.

If you're intelligent, you'll suffer for it. You can try venting on forums, but will find yourself censored quite a bit, especially if your gender is known. Sex pat dominated forums don't like women who point out motivational truths.

Will PM you a woman only forum, but you may find it's a little too geared toward the " M's" of T Land ; Maids, Massages and M-bibing

[Boo]

thaivisa isn't a sexpat forum & we have a ladies forum that is heavily moderated to prevent women being abused. I know the "womens only" forums & they are generally not as good as thaivisa for getting an all round perspective purely because they don't allow men.

[melvinmelvin]

OP SAID:

"- Networking often occurs in male-only spaces such as hooker bars, Soi Cowboy, Nana Plaza, golf trips, poker games, etc. I am not invited, cutting me off from the benefits of this networking. Networking that I am allowed to attend is mostly binge drinking and talking shit about women. I'm mainly talking about informal, after hours networking, not formal networking venues like Chamber of Commerce events. "

Why would you want to network with these chaps, even if you were invited to Cowboy/NEP etc?

To me it seems waste of valuable free time to engage in their social spheres.

OP SAID:

"- Managers (male expats) are free from gender discrimination laws and routinely objectify female employees, Thai women on the street, etc. They get in the personal space of female employees. This would be considered sexual harassment in the West. They talk so much shit about Thai women it's amazing. "

If this is the case with the vast majority of the managers I would consider looking for a new employer.

Life ain't long enough to waste year(s) with managers that are not grown up.

Talkin' shit about Thai women seems to be a popular pastime for many farang ex-pats.

Often they would also talk equally much shit about Thai men.

Just look around here on TV. So many threads (old and new) are full of sexism and bashing

of Thai women, Thai men and Thai custom and Thai society.

OP SAID:

"- I moved here with my long term male partner. Everyone likes to tell me how I can't compete with a Thai woman and it is only a matter of time before he leaves me for one. Or alternatively, they tell me that women professionals don't last long in Asia and I should leave."

My view is that female profs. last very long in Thailand.

Why should you compete with Thai women? No reason to become like them.

Being told that you cannot compete with the local women just shows that your colleagues are not prof.

[gemguy]

How are you expecting men ( the said to be perpetrators ) to accomodate you??

You have pointed out the short comings of your choosen environment relative to the sexual aspects of the environment that you work and live in along with your personal observations of how men and women interact here in THAILAND.

What exactly would you have the men do to appease you, to satisfy your female perspectives and live up to your female expectations???

Do you have a strict set of standards and guidelines that all the men here in Thailand should observe and practise while the ladies also have defined rules of behavour that would appease your personal beliefs.

People talk trash everywhere in the world and there is ongoing criticism of everything and everyone all over the world while men complain about women and bash women while women complain about men and bash men ...all the time...and that is nothing new to anyone.

I would say there is more sexuality going on here in Thailand rather than sexism and it is more in the open far moreso than in the western countries or where ever you come from.

Your entitled to complain also but do not be surprised at some of the responces to your complaints..because basically you are also complaining.

[gemguy]

As a fellow female expat I can relate to some of what you say, although thankfully much of it is not applicable to my company, nor most of those that other female expat friends work in.

To pick up on your specific points:

- I've not found networking to occur in girlie bars, etc. at MNC's or with large Thai/Asian companies. With clients it is centred round going for a nice meal, very occasionally a drink after (but never a girlie bar), or golf. And yes, this is where I feel somewhat left out as a significant amount of business and networking both with clients and internally happens on the golf course and the expat guys will go and play golf at the weekend with each other. It creates a bit of a barrier as you have this expat golfing management clique. That said I do not think it's too dissimilar to the West as a lot of business gets conducted on the golf course there too! The doing business in girlie bars, in my experience (and also that of my dad and uncle who do a lot of business in the Asia), seems to be limited to Thai based SMEs dealing with other SMEs or low level 'management' in a bigger corporation. It sounds like you have been unfortunate and ended up working with a bunch of folk that have been here too long and lost touch with reality, or they are working with clients/customers of a similarly low standing.

- The sexual harassment thing absolutely doesn't happen in my office, nor does talking badly about women, Thai, Asian, Western or otherwise. I work in a very male dominated profession and find Thailand quite refreshing. Whereas the gender balance in our London and NYC office is 25% female:75% male amongst professional staff here in BK (our Asian HQ) it's 80% female:20% male! I reiterate: you're working with a bunch of wanke_rs.

- The 'he'll leave you' comments and 'you won't last here'. Ignore them: sour grapes. The muppets spouting this nonsense were warped individuals before they even set foot in the Kingdom. The myths that perpetuate this nonsense arise from when folks mix in very narrow social circles and start to believe 'their world' to be the only reality. Thailand attracts a diverse range of people, alas the most vocal minority tends to be the elderly male keyboard warrior or sexpat. For everyone of them there are several more folks here in happy stable relationships leading very normal lives, often with families, and too busy getting on with life to feel the need to troll here or make insidious comments whilst out and about

My advice: if you're working for a MNC and have been transferred here then speak to your HR department from where you came and address the inconsistencies in global policy, but do so professionally. If you have an appraisal process then also use this to raise these issues in a constructive manner.

I hate to say it though but it sounds like you have ended up in a crappy workplace/company and if there is no recourse available from an overseas HQ then I would find something else: life is too short to deal with idiots like you describe when there are plenty of other opportunities around. And on the bright side it is still far easier for a professional expat woman to find work here than it is for a man as there are never any questions marks about what your real motivations are for being here and generally you're treated with a lot more respect.

As someone who has worked for a while in Thailand as well as in the US and UK I can agree that in Thailand I have found that the only networking that takes place in girlie bars is with foreign visitors who want to be taken out to experience the night life. The locals do not visit girlie bars and all socialising takes place in "respectable" establishments.

There is no more sexual discrimination here than I saw in the West. On the contrary, if you look at the number of women on Board positions in public companies it is far higher here in Thailand than in the US or UK. A fact many should look at before they put Thai women down or dismiss them as soft or submissive. (Or decry Thai men as sexist)

There is no more sexual harassment here than I saw in the West. Its not infrequent that someone is a dick, but there are as many here as there were in offices in the UK, and actually not many in either place and I've never seen the kind of behaviour, innapropriate touching etc., that is routinely trotted out as harassment, more like clumsy flirting. What I do find is that some Thai women, especially the young and attractive ones, will be very flirty and giggly until they realise it doesn't work on me, then they settle down.

To be frank, you sound like who is quick to find offense and wanting everything your own way. Throwing around loaded terms such as harrassment, discrimination, sexism, etc., I'd probably be wary of letting my guard down around you as well.

In any work environment you have to go along to get along to a large degree and the key skill of a leader/manager is getting people to follow you and agree with you. In the West you could use the enormous threat of crying sexism to get people to do what you want, you don't have that crutch here and now its time to find out whether you really are any good at working with people without that support or whether you actually don't have the skills.

Good points made there, relative to overly sensitive people who would complain under any circumstances.

[MacChine]

Sexuality is when you're on top, sexism is when you're on bottom.

Western (presumably) males diminishing sexism in Thailand is as ridiculous as it gets. Place festers with the pimping of it feminine citizens, and I include much of the "wifing" in that. Yes, gasp! ex pat men like the inequality here, and the unnatural( I might say,) use of sex for security. Why is gold digging acceptable for Thai woman as far as western men are concerned, it sure ain't for western women- it's a deplorable more.

I would say there is more sexuality going on here in Thailand rather than sexism and it is more in the open far moreso than in the western countries or where ever you come from.

Your entitled to complain also but do not be surprised at some of the responces to your complaints..because basically you are also complaining.

Edited January 26, 2013 by MacChine

[driedmango]

Yup western women can seem kind if bummed when the reality sets in that they for sure aren't in a christian based society or even a western one. Sex doesn't lead to hell .. its hard to grasp for some.

I would not leave if your enjoying yourself.. but complaints will not help you.. you wont change people.

Women have lots if power here look at the pm for instance when has your home country had a female leader.

You will be OK, if not then sooner or later you will move on.. naturally.

Your learning how it feels to be a minority.. it us good and humble s one.

Edited February 11, 2013 by driedmango

[Boo]

my country had a woman leader decades ago so that argument doesn't really hold any merit. that there is a female pm in thailand doesn't change the fact that it the country is still behind when it comes to the rights of females, young or old.

Women generally don't come here looking for a christian based society (?) & it is rather telling that you use it in your post but anyhooo, everyone has the right to be treated with respect & dignity regardless of their gender or race wouldn't you agree?

[driedmango]

I completely agree but I doubt your taking into account how different and complex Asian life is for us to understand. Females have much more power here than anywhere in Latin america, Africa and lots of western countries. Females own much wealth in Thailand. Its not as unfair as you think.

Many men toil quietly and get no respect either.. it is more of a class issue than you think..

And yes men and boys are rapped and sold into slavery.. it isn't only female but it is more common for sure..

All I was saying is I doubt you are going to be the one to make a different culture here.

Abrahamic religion based society as All western ones are based have born us into values we don't even know. Sex is one if them as seen as evil and bad. Guilt is in our spirit about it and we think it is much more special than others do.

Working girls get much more respect in Thailand then the west. Your free to be gay or a ladyboy for instance.. its all a matter of perspective.

No saying there isn't things that turn my stomach all over the world.. just saying that you aren't going to have the Thai women on your side and you aren't going to make sense to them.. they never had the Christian based sex based issues..

But yes a women can never ever touch a Monk.. that is the way it is, you don't have to leave but I don't understand people that stay where they aren't happy

Edited February 11, 2013 by driedmango

[Boo]

Working girls get much more respect in Thailand then the west. Your free to be gay or a ladyboy for instance.. its all a matter of perspective.

Just to use this as an example, you perceive working girls get more respect or that gay is more tolerated but from my experience the prejudice is the same as anywhere else, only the manners are different. Thai people have a way of expressing displeasure or disapproval that westerns are generally not attuned to. Yes women can own land here but they a still have a high rate of abuses against women & until very recently a thai women married to a foreigner was not allowed to own land in her own name. I am not saying that it is better or worse than in the west but that women (or men) should still strive to be treated fairly & with respect & if they aren't then should have the ability to push against it.

[driedmango]

It will be a big fight for you... it is hard to convince thais you know better how their culture should be. You won't make to many Thai friends that way.

[driedmango]

PS.. you are to being to sexist yourself to teach people to be tolerant .. lots of women love Thai culture.. getting flowers and meeting parents before having sex.. you seeing men from pooh covered glasses..

Humans didn't become so successfully having males and females compete for the same things.. we are the dominant sex being male.. the females have it lucky sometimes and sometimes the males do...

Sorry being a white women in Thailand with her husband, you could have moved to California and been fit in better.

[Boo]

Actually thai people are fighting against this so it is not cultural, oppression was the "culture" of many places once but it was still wrong & just because something is difficult, should it not be done?

[Boo]

PS.. you are to being to sexist yourself to teach people to be tolerant .. lots of women love Thai culture.. getting flowers and meeting parents before having sex.. you seeing men from pooh covered glasses..

Humans didn't become so successfully having males and females compete for the same things.. we are the dominant sex being male.. the females have it lucky sometimes and sometimes the males do...

Sorry being a white women in Thailand with her husband, you could have moved to California and been fit in better.

I think you are confused. I am married into thai culture. Do not confuse bigotry for culture. But as you seem to have a very cliched view of western women it is perhaps not surprising this mistake is made. This forum is not the place to be telling me or other women what she should or shouldn't be doing in Thailand nor where we would be better of.

There is nothing in my post to suggest I see men though pooh covered glasses nor that I want women & men to compete but this is the fear of many men & why they use the tired argument to try to make their point.

To be clear, women generally have no wish to be men or compete with men but we do expect to have equal (not more, but the same) rights as men & to be treated with respect. You have demonstrated my point perfectly though by dismissing my opinions & telling me to go elsewhere, so thank you for that

Edited February 12, 2013 by Boo
added paragraph

[driedmango]

It was nothing to do with sex. I would have told a bitter old man complaining about Thailand the same..

[Boo]

right, so what you are saying is anyone who doesn't agree with every aspect of thailand, good or bad, should go to California? (odd choice, i am neither american nor have a desire to go there!).

Bit narrow minded isn't it? My husband who is Thai is free to complain or comment on aspects of my country if he sees fit & has no issue, as a thai person when I complain or comment on negative aspects of his society. No society is perfect & to try to force the view that it is is not only pointless but dangerous.

[Sheryl]

The OP isn't talking about Thai behavior but rather the behavior of western men in Thailand...towards both Thai and Western women.

Many Thais also find it offensive when western men speak in a derogatory or demeaning way about Thai women.

[Potosi]

I suggest you don't only make demands, but reflect on what other causes you want to back in return for support for yours. There are some more people around not treated equal. The poor. Minorities. The immigrants. The disabled. Gays, for some reason they want to marry. And the largest group, the 99%. What can be done to bring equality to all? Beefing up welfare, perhaps? Undoing all the damage done by deregulation. Bringing back into the public domain all the industries, services and resources outsourced to private interests for the last century. A minimum wage that secures a decent standard of life, nothing luxerious. And to pay for it all, a considerable tax hike on the wealth the rich have stolen from us?

Don't you think this whole sexism thing that's suddenly all over the place is designed to set women and men up against each other, in order to distract from larger issues?

[manarak]

I suggest you don't only make demands, but reflect on what other causes you want to back in return for support for yours. There are some more people around not treated equal. The poor. Minorities. The immigrants. The disabled. Gays, for some reason they want to marry. And the largest group, the 99%. What can be done to bring equality to all? Beefing up welfare, perhaps? Undoing all the damage done by deregulation. Bringing back into the public domain all the industries, services and resources outsourced to private interests for the last century. A minimum wage that secures a decent standard of life, nothing luxerious. And to pay for it all, a considerable tax hike on the wealth the rich have stolen from us?

Don't you think this whole sexism thing that's suddenly all over the place is designed to set women and men up against each other, in order to distract from larger issues?

ok, let's stay on the sexism issue if it can prevent the communist hell you described in your first paragraph