Apple Cider Vinegar For Weight Loss ... Any Feedback?

[tropo]

Yes taking carbs and proteins together does help keep the spike down, my point is just that without a test you never know what is going on. We also don't know how much bread he is taking.. one slice... if so it might not impact at all.. or a lot..

Yes, there is no need to guess. The investment is small considering the knowledge gained. The health benefits gained by controlling blood sugar (keeping it near 100mg/dl or less) are immeasurable.

[Tolley]

Well he defintely needs to eliminate bread as he thinks he might have celiac disease. Oats may also be problematic and maybe better avoided. I still recommend brown rice. It is a source of good nutrients and fabulous for the bowel and colon. As long as the portion size is small and you are eating with plenty of protein it shouldnt be a problem for blood sugar.

He also needs to take probiotics and I know he has mentioned that in previous posts. The kefir grains might be the way to go there.

Portion size is definitely important and makes a big difference, but brown rice will raise blood sugar very quickly in most people with insulin resistance. Brown or white makes no difference.

This seems to be a common mantra on health forums - that brown rice is good. I'll bet none of the people advocating brown rice own a glucometer. If you join a diabetic forum and converse with real people who have prediabetes and diabetes you'll hear a different story entirely. Some of these people eat extremely low quantities of carbs (20g per day or lower) to avoid using medication. In the advanced stages even carb restriction is not enough - they'll need extreme carb restriction combined with medication (metformin)...and hope they can avoid the need for insulin injections if the pancreas stops producing insulin,.

Having tested brown and white rice on many occasions I know there is no difference with regard to a 1 or 2 hour blood sugar spikes with either. Perhaps brown rice will digest a little slower, but at 1 hour it makes no difference.

Going back to the story of my friend a few posts back. He found a little bowl of muesli shoots his blood sugar up to nearly 200mg/dl. A small slice of pumpernickel bread did the same.

I think it could be worth following Dr Mercola's advice and avoid grains altogether....or just get a glucometer and make an educated decision,

I take your point and people with specific medical condtions may need to have special diets and avoid grains altogether.

But the majority of people can handle a bit of brown rice with protein quite well. You need to do the measurements after such a meal to see what the results are. Testing brown rice in isolation is a bit misleading i think as you never just eat rice by itself.

[JSixpack]

For the majority all the will power in the world is no match for the what their body is demanding. Such people deserve compassion and understanding, not ridicule.

Very true. Even more than compassion and understanding, however, they need education to help them overcome their bodily demands. That would solve the problem, wouldn't it?

But that's what you won't find in this forum, because most everyone here, notably the loudest voices, believes in the mantra of "calories in, calories out". Non-believers, as you've noted, are subject to moral failings: they're weak and lack willpower (I'm always reminded of G. Gordon Liddy and his book Will.) Naturally, the believers are in a state of grace

That traditional misapplication of the ol' law of thermodynamics is most unhelpful. As you've said repeatedly, starving oneself won't lead to sustainable weight loss. It's not the quantity of calories but what your body does with the calories.

Anyway, the implied question is, how to decrease their bodily demands? Now, the fatter you get, the more the body demands of what it's addicted to: carbs.

JT, you're the perfect candidate for a low-carb diet. You can eat all you want; quantity doesn't much matter. Nor do you need to exercise, though exercise helpful, esp for pre-diabetics or diabetics (N. G. Boule, E. Haddad, G. P. Kenny, G. A. Wells, and R. J. Sigal., “Effects of Exercise on Glycemic Control and Body Mass in type 2 Diabetes Mellitus: A Meta-analysis of Controlled Clinical Trials,” The Journal of the American Medical Association 286 (2001), 1218–1227.) So you could extend your walks when catching a baht bus. Or not.

Really depends on individual metabolism, but most need only the willpower to follow a 20 gram carb diet for a couple of weeks while eating as much as they like of veggies, meat, and fat.Thereafter the craving for carbs, notably sugar and starches, goes away and you start wanting to eat less. Your insulin levels stay low and your body starts burning fat rather than carbs and storing fat and you lose weight w/o much more application of willpower and little or no exercise. https://www.marksdai...be-fat-adapted/ As you lose weight, you feel better and more like exercising. Fat people aren't fat because they don't exercise. They don't exercise because they're fat. (I can see jaws dropping now, ha!)

It's really the easiest diet to sustain. After you've got it going, you just naturally avoid the sugar and starches (that you no longer desire anyway) and judiciously add back in some complex carbs such as fruit. You can read countless long-term success stories on the 'net, but I've followed it for years and have seen others as well. I even converted a Thai to it: she lost 8 kilos and is keeping them off, lookin' and feelin' good.

Here, you'll find a lot of myths and distortions about the low-carb diet--it's an attack on the religion. Many are still addicted to carbs and lack the willpower to give up their beloved oatmeal and muesli etc. (whereas I enjoy eggs and bacon, heh, heh). I've given some great references in the past including biochemistry textbooks and just got back a lot of nonsense from those who didn't even read or watch (the videos). Quote any source, even the American Heart Association or Academy of Sports Medicine, and you get sneers

Hence I'm not getting into it again now and will bow out.

But if I were you, I'd pay no attn to the attacks and misinfo here (some points are good as far as they go but miss the big picture) and start researching low-carb for yourself. The science is behind it. A few references to get you started:

http://nymag.com/news/sports/38001

http://usatoday30.us...loss/55843134/1

http://garytaubes.co...-calorie-issue/

Why We Get Fat

Edited January 12, 2013 by JSixpack

[tropo]

I take your point and people with specific medical condtions may need to have special diets and avoid grains altogether.

But the majority of people can handle a bit of brown rice with protein quite well. You need to do the measurements after such a meal to see what the results are. Testing brown rice in isolation is a bit misleading i think as you never just eat rice by itself.

I've never tested brown rice in isolation. It's always tested it as part of a full meal. Mixing protein with a meal doesn't change 1 and 2 hour postprandial results. The carbohydrates are digested with or without protein and blood sugar normally reaches its peak at 45 minutes. There's no point testing things in isolation as that serves no purpose. This is why testing after meals is better than the OGTT tests done by doctors.

How would you know if the majority of people can handle brown rice well? You can't feel high blood sugar levels in the 150 - 200 mg/dl zone. You'd never know unless you tested. If you can't handle white rice you won't be able to handle brown rice. We already know that a huge percentage of population have insulin resistance so how could you make such a comment.

Do you test?

[jrtmedic]

Unbelievable ! You all fill over 7 pages discussing if vineger will help you lose the flab !

The answer is yes it will ! but dont consume your usual food mountain as well as the curative vineger !

Flab my friends is the result of gluttony !

Was obesity common during the 2nd world war years when rationing was imposed ?

A challange ------find me the fat person in a UN refugee camp!

Edited January 12, 2013 by metisdead
: There is no need to shout! Bold font removed.

[tropo]

But if I were you, I'd pay no attn to the attacks and misinfo here (some points are good as far as they go but miss the big picture) and start researching low-carb for yourself. The science is behind it. A few references to get you started:

You can still get fat on a low carb diet. You can also lose weight on a high carb diet. Carbs are only a problem in people with insulin resistance. If these people low carb they'll get specatcular results. Not so with normal people.

You don't lose your desire for carbs on a low carb diet. Going too low will increase your desire for carbs - you'll start dreaming about them. Going too low can also increase insulin resistance.

Edited January 12, 2013 by tropo

[tropo]

http://nymag.com/news/sports/38001

This made me lol.. (quote from article linked):

"Steve Blair, for instance, a University of South Carolina exercise scientist and a co-author of the AHA-ACSM guidelines, says he was “short, fat, and bald” when he started running in his thirties and he is short, fatter, and balder now, at age 68. In the intervening years, he estimates, he has run close to 80,000 miles and gained about 30 pounds."

I suppose the question one should ask is how fat would he have been if he hadn't run that distance.

Also, what does he eat?

Edited January 12, 2013 by tropo

[tropo]

http://nymag.com/news/sports/38001

Some important paragraphs from your linked article:

"If it’s biology, and not a lack of willpower, that explains why exercise fails so many of us as a weight-loss tool, then we can still find reason for optimism. Since insulin is the primary hormone affecting the activity of LPL on our cells, it’s not surprising that insulin is the primary regulator of how fat we get. “Fat is mobilized [from fat tissue] when insulin secretion diminishes,” the American Medical Association Council on Foods and Nutrition explained back in 1974, before this fact, too, was deemed irrelevant to the question of why we gain weight or the means to lose it. Because insulin determines fat accumulation, it’s quite possible that we get fat not because we eat too much or exercise too little but because we secrete too much insulin or because our insulin levels remain elevated far longer than might be ideal.

To be sure, this is the same logic that leads to other unconventional ideas. As it turns out, it’s carbohydrates—particularly easily digestible carbohydrates and sugars—that primarily stimulate insulin secretion. “Carbohydrates is driving insulin is driving fat,” as George Cahill Jr., a retired Harvard professor of medicine and expert on insulin, recently phrased it for me. So maybe if we eat fewer carbohydrates—in particular the easily digestible simple carbohydrates and sugars—we might lose considerable fat or at least not gain any more, whether we exercise or not. This would explain the slew of recent clinical trials demonstrating that dieters who restrict carbohydrates but not calories invariably lose more weight than dieters who restrict calories but not necessarily carbohydrates. Put simply, it’s quite possible that the foods—potatoes, pasta, rice, bread, pastries, sweets, soda, and beer—that our parents always thought were fattening (back when the medical specialists treating obesity believed that exercise made us hungry) really are fattening. And so if we avoid these foods specifically, we may find our weights more in line with our desires.

As for those people who insist that exercise has been the key to their weight-loss programs, the one thing we’d have to wonder is whether they changed their diets as well. Rare is the person who decides the time has come to lose weight and doesn’t also decide perhaps it’s time to eat fewer sweets, drink less beer, switch to diet soda, and maybe curtail the kind of carb-rich snacks—the potato chips and the candy bars—that might be singularly responsible for driving up their insulin and so their fat."

Edited January 12, 2013 by tropo

[tropo]

http://garytaubes.co...-calorie-issue/

One person made an interesting comment in the comments section of the article you linked:

LeeBase says:

November 20, 2012 at 7:46 am

"You make a great point, but seem to actually miss it yourself. It doesn’t make sense to say “calories don’t matter” and then show how eating low carb results in eating fewer calories. Rather one could say “low carb is the best, most healthy way to lower carbs because one can diet without being hungry”.

However, research shows that, like all diets, few people actually stick with carb restricted diets. The “hunger free” aspect must not be “the end all, be all”, or else low carb diets would significantly outperform others over the long term. And they don’t."

Edited January 12, 2013 by tropo

[tropo]

Before one makes a decision to follow a low carb diet I suggest you read the following. There are people who live well and are healthy on diets consisting of over 80% carbs.

This is very interesting reading.

Is starch a beneficial nutrient or a toxin? You be the judge

http://chriskresser.com/is-starch-a-beneficial-nutrient-or-a-toxin

[Jingthing]

I appreciate all these points here but I am more confused than ever.

I can't grasp the idea that vegetables are bad for me. I really feel the more vegetables the better.

How are average people supposed to "digest" all this conflicting information?

Anyway, now this is kind of funny.

Like I said before I do not weigh myself and I don't believe in formal boring diets (backfire feeling deprived effect).

So anyway something like two years ago I did something a little radical. I skipped breakfast and ate only papaya and banana for about three months.

I lost 2 inches on my waist but eventually found I couldn't abide not having soy milk or yogurt for breakfast and some non-sweet grains. Recently I mostly dropped the soy milk (non sugar which I dilute and use diluted yogurt instead).

So it's been years since I have weighed myself.

Well I found my scale today all dusty and decided since I am trying something new I should get a number for reference.

I do have a number from before the papaya regime, a lifetime high number.

Since the papaya regime, I have done the same exercise, but I did make some adjustments in intake.

For example I had been overdoing it before then with intake, fish and chips once a week, probably a really bad meal like that 2 or 3 times a week. I had identified fish and chips specifically as a source for weight gain since I moved to Thailand, so I decided to go cold turkey. Now I sometimes but much less often have a bad meal, like I said before pizza once a month, but no fish and chips, etc, also I switched from a daily LARGE Leo beer to a daily small San Mig LIGHT. I think I now also eat a lot more BROCCOLI. Seems like every other day I have a whole one. I do not feel at all deprived in my current diet, BTW, I can live without fish and chips and other fried foods, OK, I love them, but oh well. I even thought on my last birthday, have some fish and chips, but I still didn't.

So I weighed myself today.

Like I said, over two years.

Can you guess the difference in pounds, gained, lost, or same?

Of course, it could be the scale is rusted out. Seriously, I should buy a new one.

The other caveat is that I have been on the vinegar acid for some days now the new number is a little after starting that.

The context of this is that other than the papaya period, I had no program to lose weight, no "on a diet" consciousness whatsoever. Only eat as healthy as I can without feeling deprived, (focusing mostly on the healthy foods I happen to ENJOY) because it's good for me.

Edited January 12, 2013 by Jingthing

[ChiangMike]

I know the orthodox views that it's only about diet and exercise. I do not believe that and never will, but thanks for sharing.

I agree there is no magic pill and may never be. (Actually I think there will be but certainly not yet.) For the vast majority of people to hope for long term success, they're looking at bariatric surgery, and that's pretty horrible. Doctors who tell their fat patients, just go home and diet and exercise and can offer nothing else, they know full well their advice will fail for the vast majority of their patients, and that's a fact.

So let me get this straight - you don't believe in calorie reduction and exercise, but are willing to place faith in apple cider vinegar? Dang, I always liked reading your posts JT, but this is a bit...errrr....ummm.... disappointing. Why do you think Bariatric surgery works? It's very extreme and leaves the patient no other choice BUT to reduce calories. Eating less, or eating smart does work -- because people are too lazy to implement doesn't render it bullshit. I have a hell of a lot more respect for doctors who promote diet and exercise over those who prescribe surgery (and I work in healthcare).

Anyway, good luck. Whatever gets you through the night.

You don't have it straight at all. Again, a careful reading of my posts will tell you differently. Multiple times. I totally believe in being careful with your diet, reducing calorie intake, and exercise. I also totally believe there is a reason that the vast majority of obese adults will NEVER succeed with maintaining weight loss to ideal weight for the long term with those methods. That isn't even controversial. It is fact. You say the failures are all due to laziness. I totally reject that! Again read the link on the fat trap.. This is KNOWN SCIENCE now. Bottom line, it makes no difference for RESULTS what percentage of failures are due to fat trap science and what percentage to so called laziness. This basic advice has been around probably for centuries, and for most people, it ends up not working for whatever reasons. It is so easy to demonize fat people and label them fat pigs and lazy.

Easy there trooper, not trying to demonize anyone. I don't believe that diet/lifestyle do not work, and I think you'll have a hard time making that case scientifically other than cherry picking articles to support the position. There is certainly no consensus in the medical community to support that position (modifying diet and lifestyle to aggressively treat obesity = DOES NOT WORK, so lets try vinegar). Do you know people who've had bariatric surgery? I do. A lot. What you don't see on the billboards is extremely low energy for months after the procedure. The sagging skin. The wiry hair. I know several people who regret it.

My point was this - if you present taking Apple Cider Vinegar as a more effective option to controlling obesity than diet/exercise, then that is not valid in my opinion, and yes I would call that lazy. I do not call all obese people lazy or demonize them - but I will criticize promotion of this kind of thing. As much as I like you JT, this claim does not have a shred of validity IMHO. If saying this means I'm demonizing people so be it, but that's a twisting of my intent and in reality, is just you doing what you accuse the other of. Feel me?

Anyway, I support what works for people, period. I do not believe ACV is a reasonable answer, I definitely do not believe surgery is. You will pay a heavy price if you go that route - trust me.

Edited January 12, 2013 by ChiangMike

[Jingthing]

I know the orthodox views that it's only about diet and exercise. I do not believe that and never will, but thanks for sharing.

I agree there is no magic pill and may never be. (Actually I think there will be but certainly not yet.) For the vast majority of people to hope for long term success, they're looking at bariatric surgery, and that's pretty horrible. Doctors who tell their fat patients, just go home and diet and exercise and can offer nothing else, they know full well their advice will fail for the vast majority of their patients, and that's a fact.

So let me get this straight - you don't believe in calorie reduction and exercise, but are willing to place faith in apple cider vinegar? Dang, I always liked reading your posts JT, but this is a bit...errrr....ummm.... disappointing. Why do you think Bariatric surgery works? It's very extreme and leaves the patient no other choice BUT to reduce calories. Eating less, or eating smart does work -- because people are too lazy to implement doesn't render it bullshit. I have a hell of a lot more respect for doctors who promote diet and exercise over those who prescribe surgery (and I work in healthcare).

Anyway, good luck. Whatever gets you through the night.

You don't have it straight at all. Again, a careful reading of my posts will tell you differently. Multiple times. I totally believe in being careful with your diet, reducing calorie intake, and exercise. I also totally believe there is a reason that the vast majority of obese adults will NEVER succeed with maintaining weight loss to ideal weight for the long term with those methods. That isn't even controversial. It is fact. You say the failures are all due to laziness. I totally reject that! Again read the link on the fat trap.. This is KNOWN SCIENCE now. Bottom line, it makes no difference for RESULTS what percentage of failures are due to fat trap science and what percentage to so called laziness. This basic advice has been around probably for centuries, and for most people, it ends up not working for whatever reasons. It is so easy to demonize fat people and label them fat pigs and lazy.

Easy there trooper, not trying to demonize anyone. I don't believe that diet/lifestyle do not work, and I think you'll have a hard time making that case scientifically other than cherry picking articles to support the position. There is certainly no consensus in the medical community to support that position (modifying diet and lifestyle to aggressively treat obesity = DOES NOT WORK, so lets try vinegar). Do you know people who've had bariatric surgery? I do. A lot. What you don't see on the billboards is extremely low energy for months after the procedure. The sagging skin. The wiry hair. I know several people who regret it.

My point was this - if you present taking Apple Cider Vinegar as a more effective option to controlling obesity than diet/exercise, then that is not valid in my opinion, and yes I would call that lazy. I do not call all obese people lazy or demonize them - but I will criticize promotion of this kind of thing. As much as I like you JT, this claim does not have a shred of validity IMHO. If saying this means I'm demonizing fat people so be it, but that's a twisting of my intent and in reality, is just you doing what you accuse the other of. Feel me?

Anyway, I support what works for people, period. I do not believe ACV is a reasonable answer, I definitely do not believe surgery is. You will pay a heavy price if you go that route - trust me.

Again you totally twisted my POV. Given that, not worth any reply. Cheers. Edited January 12, 2013 by Jingthing

[ChiangMike]

Again you totally twisted my POV. Given that, not worth any reply. Cheers.

Uh huh. Pot. Kettle. Cheers.

[tropo]

I appreciate all these points here but I am more confused than ever.

I can't grasp the idea that vegetables are bad for me. I really feel the more vegetables the better.

How are average people supposed to "digest" all this conflicting information?

Anyway, now this is kind of funny.

Like I said before I do not weigh myself and I don't believe in formal boring diets (backfire feeling deprived effect).

So anyway something like two years ago I did something a little radical. I skipped breakfast and ate only papaya and banana for about three months.

I lost 2 inches on my waist but eventually found I couldn't abide not having soy milk or yogurt for breakfast and some non-sweet grains. Recently I mostly dropped the soy milk (non sugar which I dilute and use diluted yogurt instead).

So it's been years since I have weighed myself.

Well I found my scale today all dusty and decided since I am trying something new I should get a number for reference.

I do have a number from before the papaya regime, a lifetime high number.

Since the papaya regime, I have done the same exercise, but I did make some adjustments in intake.

For example I had been overdoing it before then with intake, fish and chips once a week, probably a really bad meal like that 2 or 3 times a week. I had identified fish and chips specifically as a source for weight gain since I moved to Thailand, so I decided to go cold turkey. Now I sometimes but much less often have a bad meal, like I said before pizza once a month, but no fish and chips, etc, also I switched from a daily LARGE Leo beer to a daily small San Mig LIGHT. I think I now also eat a lot more BROCCOLI. Seems like every other day I have a whole one. I do not feel at all deprived in my current diet, BTW, I can live without fish and chips and other fried foods, OK, I love them, but oh well. I even thought on my last birthday, have some fish and chips, but I still didn't.

So I weighed myself today.

Like I said, over two years.

Can you guess the difference in pounds, gained, lost, or same?

Of course, it could be the scale is rusted out. Seriously, I should buy a new one.

The other caveat is that I have been on the vinegar acid for some days now the new number is a little after starting that.

I'll have to admit that my "stereotype" and assumptions of you were off the mark. You are quite proactive in trying to stay healthy and I commend you for that.

This thread has lead me to do a lot more reading on the topic, and the more you read the more confusing it becomes. Many of these articles lead to comments threads 100's of comments long.

It becomes quite clear that there is no one-fit diet for all. A lot of people struggle on low-carb diets, other's do well on them. The article I linked above indicates that many people can do well on high-carb diets.

... and off course, at the risk of becoming a repetitive bore - find out how well you handle carbs by testing. Then you can make a more educated decision about what you should be eating. If you handle carbs well there's no need to go on a highly restrictive (and boring) low carb diet.

Consuming a lot of vegetables is a great idea. IF you have insulin resistance you should limit the starchy ones. Note use of the word "limit". You don't have to totally eliminate them.

I know there's a lot of controversy about whether one should exercise to lose fat, but one thing has been proven, exercise does improve insulin sensitivity, so a person who is prediabetic or diabetic will gain a lot more from exercise than a normal person with regards to fat loss.

[Jingthing]

I have been exercising for decades. Never a gym rat as that's not my style, but at least something aerobic typically every other day. I think I would be dead by now if I hadn't done that. I can feel the difference and not doing it makes me feel quite poorly.

Nobody wants to guess the number? I don't blame you. The scale could be very defective.

Edited January 12, 2013 by Jingthing

[tropo]

Yikes! Over 3 hours of YouTube videos is not the best way to make a point. May I recommend a good book?

Thanks for the articles though - they were good reading.

Edited January 12, 2013 by tropo

[tropo]

I have been exercising for decades. Never a gym rat as that's not my style, but at least something aerobic typically every other day. I think I would be dead by now if I hadn't done that. I can feel the difference and not doing it makes me feel quite poorly.

Nobody wants to guess the number? I don't blame you. The scale could be very defective.

At least 10kg down would be my guess.

[Jingthing]

I have been exercising for decades. Never a gym rat as that's not my style, but at least something aerobic typically every other day. I think I would be dead by now if I hadn't done that. I can feel the difference and not doing it makes me feel quite poorly.

Nobody wants to guess the number? I don't blame you. The scale could be very defective.

At least 10kg down would be my guess.

Just about. Again the scale might be busted. I was kind of shocked.

As far as the food reviews, I will always have a fat soul whether my body is fat or not (mostly it has been fat) but I don't think all or even most people who write about food are unusually obese. I do love food, yes more than sex, and I realize there are only so many meals you can eat, stomach capacity, health, and hunger being the factors. So I do make an effort to make all the meals in my life delicious. Except breakfast which tastes OK but I'm into boredom and routine for breakfast. Delicious is about much more than fat, sugar, and salt. There are spices, garlic and chile, olive oil OK that's a fat, the lists could go on long. As I only eat so much, if I go to a new restaurant, and the food sucks, yes I'll usually eat it but I find that very annoying. They've not only taken my money for something cruddy, they've made my day not delicious. When the food is good, yes I'm appreciative and enjoy spreading the word.

If you see I have reviewed something like a LASAGNA (for example) please don't bite my head off. If I think a new place is going to have really good lasagna, I might try it. But that doesn't mean I will be eating that again for a long time if ever. I am making no commitment never to have some "bad" foods. No more fish and chip reviews even though I started a thread once all about fish and chips.

I have been doing some other things not directed at weight loss but for health promoting purposes. Not sure I could prove they actually are health promoting but I do them anyway:

Unsweetened cocoa for the flavonoids, one heaping tablespoon mixed with a touch of honey and a heaping teaspoon of cinnamon powder (apparently helps with processing sugar)

A variety of probiotics: yogurt live culture, Kefir but limited because it is not low fat, kimchi, sauerkraut (one, two, or more daily)

Ground flaxseed, a tablespoon at breakfast

One more thing, even when you are TRYING to eat healthy, there are so many TRAPS out there, it isn't always easy. For fish and chips yes I always knew that was bad. I mentioned bread before. People think it's OK to eat a whole grain bread. Maybe. But maybe it's injected with lots of fat. More like probably. How can you even know? For some years (pre papaya) I used to use the roasted chicken from the Thai red chicken carts as my main source of meat for home cooked meals! I would slice it up and use in recipes. It tasted nice. I wasn't thinking. If I was thinking I was thinking it's just chicken, how high calorie can chicken be? Well I found it later besides the skin (which I mostly didn't eat directly) they throw masses of some questionable fat on those birds during cooking. What is it? I don't know. Wouldn't be surprised if it is isn't some kind of horrible transfat. Anyway, switched to skinless chicken breasts long ago, boiled the Chinese way so no fat in preparing the meat at all.

Edited January 12, 2013 by Jingthing

[robblok]

Nice to know you went down in weight, JT nobody knows all about food or eats right always. I am real strict but today i let go and went to a Oishy bufet and ate loads of salmon. I have had pizza in the past too.. i just make sure these dont become regular things Thought Oishy is not that bad its actually good to eat salmon.

I also did not know it all it wasn't until i tested myself with a gluco meter that i "presumed" healthy breakfast was bad for me. I still eat oats as breakfast just less of them. My dad always says the only person who does not make mistakes is dead. Or like some famous guy said.. to err is human.

[tropo]

A variety of probiotics: yogurt live culture, Kefir but limited because it is not low fat, kimchi, sauerkraut (one, two, or more daily)

You could make that kefir yourself with zero fat milk - that's how I make it.

I also have a treat here and there. I also enjoy good lasagne and fish 'n chips. Sometimes I grab some chocolate or a piece of cake too., They're extra enjoyable if you don't eat them regularly.

[tropo]

I am real strict but today i let go and went to a Oishy bufet and ate loads of salmon. I have had pizza in the past too..

Occasionally I'll splash out and have a evening buffet dinner at the Hilton, but you know, it's not so easy to eat a lot when you've been restricting quantities for long while. One time I felt positively ill on my second dessert. At another time I could have had half a dozen of same....All that nice food and no place to put it.

[tropo]

For the majority all the will power in the world is no match for the what their body is demanding. Such people deserve compassion and understanding, not ridicule.

Very true. Even more than compassion and understanding, however, they need education to help them overcome their bodily demands. That would solve the problem, wouldn't it?

But that's what you won't find in this forum, because most everyone here, notably the loudest voices, believes in the mantra of "calories in, calories out". Non-believers, as you've noted, are subject to moral failings: they're weak and lack willpower (I'm always reminded of G. Gordon Liddy and his book Will.) Naturally, the believers are in a state of grace

That traditional misapplication of the ol' law of thermodynamics is most unhelpful. As you've said repeatedly, starving oneself won't lead to sustainable weight loss. It's not the quantity of calories but what your body does with the calories.

Anyway, the implied question is, how to decrease their bodily demands? Now, the fatter you get, the more the body demands of what it's addicted to: carbs.

JT, you're the perfect candidate for a low-carb diet. You can eat all you want; quantity doesn't much matter. Nor do you need to exercise, though exercise helpful, esp for pre-diabetics or diabetics (N. G. Boule, E. Haddad, G. P. Kenny, G. A. Wells, and R. J. Sigal., “Effects of Exercise on Glycemic Control and Body Mass in type 2 Diabetes Mellitus: A Meta-analysis of Controlled Clinical Trials,” The Journal of the American Medical Association 286 (2001), 1218–1227.) So you could extend your walks when catching a baht bus. Or not.

Really depends on individual metabolism, but most need only the willpower to follow a 20 gram carb diet for a couple of weeks while eating as much as they like of veggies, meat, and fat.Thereafter the craving for carbs, notably sugar and starches, goes away and you start wanting to eat less. Your insulin levels stay low and your body starts burning fat rather than carbs and storing fat and you lose weight w/o much more application of willpower and little or no exercise. https://www.marksdai...be-fat-adapted/ As you lose weight, you feel better and more like exercising. Fat people aren't fat because they don't exercise. They don't exercise because they're fat. (I can see jaws dropping now, ha!)

It's really the easiest diet to sustain. After you've got it going, you just naturally avoid the sugar and starches (that you no longer desire anyway) and judiciously add back in some complex carbs such as fruit. You can read countless long-term success stories on the 'net, but I've followed it for years and have seen others as well. I even converted a Thai to it: she lost 8 kilos and is keeping them off, lookin' and feelin' good.

Here, you'll find a lot of myths and distortions about the low-carb diet--it's an attack on the religion. Many are still addicted to carbs and lack the willpower to give up their beloved oatmeal and muesli etc. (whereas I enjoy eggs and bacon, heh, heh). I've given some great references in the past including biochemistry textbooks and just got back a lot of nonsense from those who didn't even read or watch (the videos). Quote any source, even the American Heart Association or Academy of Sports Medicine, and you get sneers

Hence I'm not getting into it again now and will bow out.

But if I were you, I'd pay no attn to the attacks and misinfo here (some points are good as far as they go but miss the big picture) and start researching low-carb for yourself. The science is behind it. A few references to get you started:

http://nymag.com/news/sports/38001

http://usatoday30.us...loss/55843134/1

http://garytaubes.co...-calorie-issue/

Why We Get Fat

Well, I've read through all your links. It's time for you to do some reading.

Here's an extremely compelling examination of the carbohydrate hypothesis of obesity.

http://wholehealthso...of-obesity.html

I'll paste the conclusion here:

(what makes this particularly interesting is that he examines and refutes certain hypotheses that Gary Taubes makes (some in the article you linked in your post). He does this in a very logical and classy way.

Conclusion

I hope you can see by now that the carbohydrate hypothesis of obesity is not only incorrect on a number of levels, but it may even be backward. The reason why obesity and metabolism researchers don't typically subscribe to this idea is that it is contradicted by a large body of evidence from multiple fields. I understand that people like ideas that "challenge conventional wisdom", but the fact is that obesity is a complex state and it will not be shoehorned into simplistic hypotheses.

Carbohydrate consumption per se is not behind the obesity epidemic. However, once overweight or obesity is established, carbohydrate restriction can aid fat loss in some people. The mechanism by which this occurs is not totally clear, but there is no evidence that insulin plays a causal role in this process. Carbohydrate restriction spontaneously reduces calorie intake (as does fat restriction to a lesser extent), suggesting the possibility that it alters body fat homeostasis, but there is no compelling evidence that that happens due to a hormonal influence on fat tissue itself. The brain is the primary homeostatic regulator of fat mass, just as it homeostatically regulates blood pressure, breathing rate, and body temperature. This has been suspected since the early brain lesion studies of the 1940s (47) and even before, and the discovery of leptin in 1994 cemented leptin's role as the main player in body fat homeostasis. In some cases, the setpoint around which the body defends these variables can be changed (e.g., hypertension, fever, and obesity). Research is ongoing to understand how this process works.

Edited January 12, 2013 by tropo

[tropo]

ALERT

A large proportion of prediabetes and diabetes goes undiagnosed when only fasting plasma glucose and/or HbA1c are measured in overweight or obese patients.

70% of cases go undiagnosed when only FBS and HbA1c is tested.

Read an abstract of the study on PubMed:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20627649?dopt=Abstract

[Tolley]

I take your point and people with specific medical condtions may need to have special diets and avoid grains altogether.

But the majority of people can handle a bit of brown rice with protein quite well. You need to do the measurements after such a meal to see what the results are. Testing brown rice in isolation is a bit misleading i think as you never just eat rice by itself.

I've never tested brown rice in isolation. It's always tested it as part of a full meal. Mixing protein with a meal doesn't change 1 and 2 hour postprandial results. The carbohydrates are digested with or without protein and blood sugar normally reaches its peak at 45 minutes. There's no point testing things in isolation as that serves no purpose. This is why testing after meals is better than the OGTT tests done by doctors.

How would you know if the majority of people can handle brown rice well? You can't feel high blood sugar levels in the 150 - 200 mg/dl zone. You'd never know unless you tested. If you can't handle white rice you won't be able to handle brown rice. We already know that a huge percentage of population have insulin resistance so how could you make such a comment.

Do you test?

Well the majority of people dont have insulin resistance so that is how I can make the comment.

No I dont test I dont need to as I have had my fasting blood sugar tested many times and it is fine and even a bit low actually.

As i have stated before everyone is different and all advice here while well intentioned may or may not be applicable to you.

You really need to see a good experienced naturopath to work through the right diet for you. I did this many years ago and it has served me extremely well. They use blood tests in conjunction with family history and other diagnostic tools to come up with a plan for you. This then gets fine tuned over the years.

As for JT if he wanted to lose weight quickly I would recommend the Aitkens diet because it definitely works to get off the pounds quickly. He could then go on their maintenance type diet which is basically how I eat anyway which includes a small amount of complex carbs, no sugar or processed junk.

[tropo]

Well the majority of people dont have insulin resistance so that is how I can make the comment.

No I dont test I dont need to as I have had my fasting blood sugar tested many times and it is fine and even a bit low actually.

As i have stated before everyone is different and all advice here while well intentioned may or may not be applicable to you.

You really need to see a good experienced naturopath to work through the right diet for you. I did this many years ago and it has served me extremely well. They use blood tests in conjunction with family history and other diagnostic tools to come up with a plan for you. This then gets fine tuned over the years.

As for JT if he wanted to lose weight quickly I would recommend the Aitkens diet because it definitely works to get off the pounds quickly. He could then go on their maintenance type diet which is basically how I eat anyway which includes a small amount of complex carbs, no sugar or processed junk.

How could you possibly know what percentage of people have insulin resistance when hardly anyone ever gets tested. I have seen one figure that shows that 50% of people (US) over 65 have it. It starts a lot earlier. Even it if is not a "majority", it's a very big percentage... but of course we will never know because everyone will not be tested - and to test this requires more than an FBS. Postprandial tests are required to determine how a person handles rice and these are even more difficult to do as a home testing kit is required.

Check the study above where 70% are undiagnosed using FBS and HbA1c tests alone.

You're making the assumption that because your FBS is normal you don't spike after rice. You don't know until you test.

I don't need to see a naturopath as I know exactly how to keep my blood sugar under control. I thought I made that clear in other posts? My blood sugar is perfectly normal. WPC is a big factor too as it causes an insulin release which helps to lower blood sugar from carbs. A very good way to handle more carbs at a sitting. It's like an insulin supplement.

Edited January 12, 2013 by tropo

[poanoi]

ALERT

A large proportion of prediabetes and diabetes goes undiagnosed when only fasting plasma glucose and/or HbA1c are measured in overweight or obese patients.

70% of cases go undiagnosed when only FBS and HbA1c is tested.

Read an abstract of the study on PubMed:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....9?dopt=Abstract

Ok, so what additional test do i have to do ?

[robblok]

I take your point and people with specific medical condtions may need to have special diets and avoid grains altogether.

But the majority of people can handle a bit of brown rice with protein quite well. You need to do the measurements after such a meal to see what the results are. Testing brown rice in isolation is a bit misleading i think as you never just eat rice by itself.

I've never tested brown rice in isolation. It's always tested it as part of a full meal. Mixing protein with a meal doesn't change 1 and 2 hour postprandial results. The carbohydrates are digested with or without protein and blood sugar normally reaches its peak at 45 minutes. There's no point testing things in isolation as that serves no purpose. This is why testing after meals is better than the OGTT tests done by doctors.

How would you know if the majority of people can handle brown rice well? You can't feel high blood sugar levels in the 150 - 200 mg/dl zone. You'd never know unless you tested. If you can't handle white rice you won't be able to handle brown rice. We already know that a huge percentage of population have insulin resistance so how could you make such a comment.

Do you test?

Well the majority of people dont have insulin resistance so that is how I can make the comment.

No I dont test I dont need to as I have had my fasting blood sugar tested many times and it is fine and even a bit low actually.

As i have stated before everyone is different and all advice here while well intentioned may or may not be applicable to you.

You really need to see a good experienced naturopath to work through the right diet for you. I did this many years ago and it has served me extremely well. They use blood tests in conjunction with family history and other diagnostic tools to come up with a plan for you. This then gets fine tuned over the years.

As for JT if he wanted to lose weight quickly I would recommend the Aitkens diet because it definitely works to get off the pounds quickly. He could then go on their maintenance type diet which is basically how I eat anyway which includes a small amount of complex carbs, no sugar or processed junk.

Tolly,

I have downloaded a nice documentary about the Atkins diet, basically it works because high protein meals fill you up better and this way it reduces the caloric intake. Its from the BBC if you want it i can link it from my dropbox.

[JSixpack]

For the majority all the will power in the world is no match for the what their body is demanding. Such people deserve compassion and understanding, not ridicule.

Very true. Even more than compassion and understanding, however, they need education to help them overcome their bodily demands. That would solve the problem, wouldn't it?

But that's what you won't find in this forum, because most everyone here, notably the loudest voices, believes in the mantra of "calories in, calories out". Non-believers, as you've noted, are subject to moral failings: they're weak and lack willpower (I'm always reminded of G. Gordon Liddy and his book Will.) Naturally, the believers are in a state of grace

That traditional misapplication of the ol' law of thermodynamics is most unhelpful. As you've said repeatedly, starving oneself won't lead to sustainable weight loss. It's not the quantity of calories but what your body does with the calories.

Anyway, the implied question is, how to decrease their bodily demands? Now, the fatter you get, the more the body demands of what it's addicted to: carbs.

JT, you're the perfect candidate for a low-carb diet. You can eat all you want; quantity doesn't much matter. Nor do you need to exercise, though exercise helpful, esp for pre-diabetics or diabetics (N. G. Boule, E. Haddad, G. P. Kenny, G. A. Wells, and R. J. Sigal., “Effects of Exercise on Glycemic Control and Body Mass in type 2 Diabetes Mellitus: A Meta-analysis of Controlled Clinical Trials,” The Journal of the American Medical Association 286 (2001), 1218–1227.) So you could extend your walks when catching a baht bus. Or not.

Really depends on individual metabolism, but most need only the willpower to follow a 20 gram carb diet for a couple of weeks while eating as much as they like of veggies, meat, and fat.Thereafter the craving for carbs, notably sugar and starches, goes away and you start wanting to eat less. Your insulin levels stay low and your body starts burning fat rather than carbs and storing fat and you lose weight w/o much more application of willpower and little or no exercise. https://www.marksdai...be-fat-adapted/ As you lose weight, you feel better and more like exercising. Fat people aren't fat because they don't exercise. They don't exercise because they're fat. (I can see jaws dropping now, ha!)

It's really the easiest diet to sustain. After you've got it going, you just naturally avoid the sugar and starches (that you no longer desire anyway) and judiciously add back in some complex carbs such as fruit. You can read countless long-term success stories on the 'net, but I've followed it for years and have seen others as well. I even converted a Thai to it: she lost 8 kilos and is keeping them off, lookin' and feelin' good.

Here, you'll find a lot of myths and distortions about the low-carb diet--it's an attack on the religion. Many are still addicted to carbs and lack the willpower to give up their beloved oatmeal and muesli etc. (whereas I enjoy eggs and bacon, heh, heh). I've given some great references in the past including biochemistry textbooks and just got back a lot of nonsense from those who didn't even read or watch (the videos). Quote any source, even the American Heart Association or Academy of Sports Medicine, and you get sneers

Hence I'm not getting into it again now and will bow out.

But if I were you, I'd pay no attn to the attacks and misinfo here (some points are good as far as they go but miss the big picture) and start researching low-carb for yourself. The science is behind it. A few references to get you started:

http://nymag.com/news/sports/38001

http://usatoday30.us...loss/55843134/1

http://garytaubes.co...-calorie-issue/

Why We Get Fat

Well, I've read through all your links. It's time for you to do some reading.

Here's an extremely compelling examination of the carbohydrate hypothesis of obesity.

http://wholehealthso...of-obesity.html

I'll paste the conclusion here.

Now, that article's conclusion hardly concludes the argument.

Some of what he said wasn't as inconsistent w/ Taubes as he thought.

True, some populations have been lean on high-carb diet. Typically that was also a high-fiber diet, which makes a critical difference in useable carbs. And it's speculated that ingestion of refined carbs and sugars (as in most modern civilizations, from early childhood) leads to bodily changes (not getting technical here) that make subsequent carbs more liable to create fat.

Suggest you read thru the comments to the article you cited esp those by Andreas Eenfeldt such as

Andreas Eenfeldt said...

Stephen,

Very interesting post (as always), but several surprisingly unconvincing arguments.

First of all: You state that low carb diets do indeed work well for weight loss most of the time, and that you see that as a fact. Kudos to you for acknowledging it. However, you can't say for sure why they work, if not through insulin, so maybe we should not rush to conclusions yet.

You also claim that obesity and metabolism researchers do not take the carbohydrate theory seriously. Well, as they have so far failed spectacularly to come up with anything useful for obesity I'm not sure that is a bad thing.

In the face of massively increasing obesity rates there is only one drug approved in Europe (where I work as a doctor treating obese patients), orlistat, and everyone pretty much agrees that it sucks. The only solution proposed is to cut away healthy stomachs to stop fat people from eating. Yikes.

The failure of obesity and metabolism researchers during the last decades is of epic proportions. It makes the Hindenburg look like a success story. Please don't tell me we should care what they think.

On to your three so called "falsifications":

1: Take a look at Robert Lustig's lecture during AHS. Hyperinsulinemia gives leptin resistance.

Problem solved. Moving on:

2. Insulin results in fat being pushed into fat cells BUT insulin also signals satiety in the brain... problem? No. Like most hormones (cortisol is a good example) insulin has short term and long term effects:

Short term it increases satiety in the brain. Makes perfect sense as it normally means that we just ate.

Long term hyperinsulinemia, on the other hand, increases fat storage and makes us eat more. At least partly through the resulting leptin resistance, like professor Lustig pointed out.

Again, problem solved. Nothing "falsified".

3. You claim that not just (especially refined) carbohydrates increase insulin, so does protein to some degree. Sure. But we all need protein and low carb diets are mainly about switching carbs to fat. Carbs release lots of insulin, fats do not.

There are plenty of studies showing that low carb diets drastically reduce insulin levels during the entire day. If you'd like references just say so.

Again, nothing falsified.

To summarize:

Of course not all carbs are evil all the time. But refined carbs (sugar, easily digested starch) can be a huge problem for sensitive people (obese, diabetics). It seems we agree on that, as well as that low carb diets can be most helpful in those conditions.

What is really being questioned here is the explanation behind the way the world works. And perhaps it is not quite so simple as Taubes and others once thought.

However, if we complicate the theory just a little bit it still works fine. Let's not rush to "falsify" a working hypothesis when we have nothing better to replace it with.

August 12, 2011 9:56 AM

and his comments here:

http://www.dietdocto...et-show-goes-on

And then Taubes' response here:

http://garytaubes.co...ds-ends-part-i/

Quibbles aside, Taubes and Lustig's (Lustig differs a bit w/ emphasis on leptin) ideas (based on prior studies and biochem) are sufficient to suggest that anyone overweight who wishes to lose weight and improve his/her numbers should try low-carb. In comparison w/ other popular diets it does come out ahead. True, other diets can also be effective (no obese inmates in Auschwitz)--but I find none so easy to maintain, and I certainly enjoy the kinds of food I can eat (no need to choose "lean" beef and I leave the skin ON the chicken ) and the quantity of it I can eat. Countless testimonials agree. As one comment, by a guy who lost 40 lbs on LC, to your article noted,

For me, that bottom line is represented by this statement in Why We Get Fat: ". . . people who restrict carbohydrates often eat less than they otherwise might" (p. 211). And here you say almost the same thing: "Carbohydrate restriction spontaneously reduces calorie intake." That is precisely what has happened in my case, and it is the reason that I think a low-carb diet works for me.

Edited January 13, 2013 by JSixpack

[tropo]

ALERT

A large proportion of prediabetes and diabetes goes undiagnosed when only fasting plasma glucose and/or HbA1c are measured in overweight or obese patients.

70% of cases go undiagnosed when only FBS and HbA1c is tested.

Read an abstract of the study on PubMed:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....9?dopt=Abstract

Ok, so what additional test do i have to do ?

Testing after food at one hour and two hours. Postprandial. You'd need to have your own glucometer or use a friends. The alternative would be an OGGT (oral glucose tolerance test). This involves consuming a drink with exactly 75 g of glucose and testing at 2 hours. I would suggest a 1 hour check too... however this method is very unnatural compared to the after food method.