Water Pressure For Drip Systems

[NeverSure]

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Edited January 15, 2013 by NeverSure

[NeverSure]

If I ran one soaker hose for 2 hrs per day and changed it 3 times per day to another row, I would water 4 rows per day. I could water every row once a week. That's better than your average Thai sugar farm. I may get enough pressure off a not very tall water tower to accomplish this. My rows all flow on a slight downhill grade from the water well.

I could run 1" pvc with holes drilled and the end capped. 3 metre lengths not glued for easy moving. or....set up drip lines with a valve on each line....open one or two at a time....easiest once installed....but more expensive

My concern is the length of your runs. Are you thinking of hooking enough soaker hoses together to make the length in one shot? I'm thinking there wouldn't be enough pressure left to leak any water at the ends. Think of it like putting too many Rainbird sprinklers on a given line. The first one will maybe work OK, but the one way down there on the end may do little more than dribble. Especially given the size of soaker hoses I've seen, I just don't see them carrying enough water. It's not just the length and the inherent friction of the water, but it's the volume of water entering the hose vs the ability of all of that hose to leak more than what enters.

Something you can do is build a manifold with several hose bibs on it, and feed it from the tower with a larger line. Then you could hook a soaker hose to one bib, then a garden hose to another to take water to the end of the first soaker and then hook another soaker to that. Then you could hook two garden hoses to the next one etc., until you staggered all the way, but that's just one row!!

[Naam]

I think that the more the guy knows about different types of systems, costs, ROI, dry land vs irrigated and all, the better off he is.

We don't know his land. Much of the land in LOS has a high water table. For all we know he could dig a productive pond. It certainly takes less energy to lift from a pond than from a deep water well. Someone just told him how much water can be pumped from a pond with a single cylinder diesel with a 4 inch hose, and with specificity about the machine, time and number of rai.

Yes it's random information about random land we don't know much about. I like all of the information I can get including how much water a single cylinder Kubota will pump in terms of area irrigated and pipe size used.

We have no idea what he will end up doing. We don't know whether he'll have almost no water, or a flood of it. At the least he surely has a lot of information to consider.

I agree. More information is better. It helps to spark ideas. I have a single cylinder diesel Kubota and a 2" pump, but the water here is not that great so pumping straight out into the field is time-consuming. I would rather spend my time building a system that I could watch work rather than move pipe by hand for the rest of the year.

I think you take your avatar a little too serious Naam. Warf was a Klingon warrior. We are not at war. This is not Star Trek. We're just trying to figure out some shit in a friendly way. Actually my only question was if anyone had any experience working a drip system with less than 10 psi. A simple "no" would suffice.

i have designed for three of my homes irrigation systems, each a combination of sprinklers, drip and underground soaking. but no limitations as far as available water volume, flow, pressure or power was/is concerned. your case is different because you lack all of the afore-mentioned.

"figuring out some shit in a friendly way" based on irrelevant yada yada yakety-yak is not exactly my favourite pastime. but if you are interested in academic information that won't help saving your problems i could write a bunch of pages concerning pumps, pressure, pipe/valve resistance, flow and a variety of other related topics. what about a triple water cooling system for a power plant or desalination plant and its attached supply/distribution system stretching from the Persian Gulf 400km to Riyadh ? the choice is yours.

[Gary A]

If I ran one soaker hose for 2 hrs per day and changed it 3 times per day to another row, I would water 4 rows per day. I could water every row once a week. That's better than your average Thai sugar farm. I may get enough pressure off a not very tall water tower to accomplish this. My rows all flow on a slight downhill grade from the water well.

I could run 1" pvc with holes drilled and the end capped. 3 metre lengths not glued for easy moving. or....set up drip lines with a valve on each line....open one or two at a time....easiest once installed....but more expensive

My concern is the length of your runs. Are you thinking of hooking enough soaker hoses together to make the length in one shot? I'm thinking there wouldn't be enough pressure left to leak any water at the ends. Think of it like putting too many Rainbird sprinklers on a given line. The first one will maybe work OK, but the one way down there on the end may do little more than dribble. Especially given the size of soaker hoses I've seen, I just don't see them carrying enough water. It's not just the length and the inherent friction of the water, but it's the volume of water entering the hose vs the ability of all of that hose to leak more than what enters.

Something you can do is build a manifold with several hose bibs on it, and feed it from the tower with a larger line. Then you could hook a soaker hose to one bib, then a garden hose to another to take water to the end of the first soaker and then hook another soaker to that. Then you could hook two garden hoses to the next one etc., until you staggered all the way, but that's just one row!!

The nice thing about soaker hoses is that you can easily see how many and how long of a hose you can use by just looking. If the hose is inflated with water pressure, you have enough water going into the hose or hoses. The amount of pressure will determine how much water seeps out in a given time.

[Gary A]

I think that the more the guy knows about different types of systems, costs, ROI, dry land vs irrigated and all, the better off he is.

We don't know his land. Much of the land in LOS has a high water table. For all we know he could dig a productive pond. It certainly takes less energy to lift from a pond than from a deep water well. Someone just told him how much water can be pumped from a pond with a single cylinder diesel with a 4 inch hose, and with specificity about the machine, time and number of rai.

Yes it's random information about random land we don't know much about. I like all of the information I can get including how much water a single cylinder Kubota will pump in terms of area irrigated and pipe size used.

We have no idea what he will end up doing. We don't know whether he'll have almost no water, or a flood of it. At the least he surely has a lot of information to consider.

I agree. More information is better. It helps to spark ideas. I have a single cylinder diesel Kubota and a 2" pump, but the water here is not that great so pumping straight out into the field is time-consuming. I would rather spend my time building a system that I could watch work rather than move pipe by hand for the rest of the year.

I think you take your avatar a little too serious Naam. Warf was a Klingon warrior. We are not at war. This is not Star Trek. We're just trying to figure out some shit in a friendly way. Actually my only question was if anyone had any experience working a drip system with less than 10 psi. A simple "no" would suffice.

i have designed for three of my homes irrigation systems, each a combination of sprinklers, drip and underground soaking. but no limitations as far as available water volume, flow, pressure or power was/is concerned. your case is different because you lack all of the afore-mentioned.

"figuring out some shit in a friendly way" based on irrelevant yada yada yakety-yak is not exactly my favourite pastime. but if you are interested in academic information that won't help saving your problems i could write a bunch of pages concerning pumps, pressure, pipe/valve resistance, flow and a variety of other related topics. what about a triple water cooling system for a power plant or desalination plant and its attached supply/distribution system stretching from the Persian Gulf 400km to Riyadh ? the choice is yours.

I think you'll find that most of us farang hobby farmers are not real strong on the technical academic aspects of much of anything. I try something and if it works, great. If it doesn't work I will have learned something and will try something different. I have learned from experience that regular jet pumps have a difficult time pumping water from deeper than five meters when the pump is at ground level. I have also learned that two pipe deep well pumps don't deliver enough water for anything except small garden irrigation. Submersible pumps of the same horsepower as a deep well pump will deliver several times the amount of water that comes from a two pipe deep well pump.

I am interested in trying an air powered deep well pump. I don't know if a gasoline or diesel driven air compressor would be any more efficient than a gasoline or diesel generator driving a submersible pump. That's a good research project for an academic to investigate.

[NeverSure]

I think that the more the guy knows about different types of systems, costs, ROI, dry land vs irrigated and all, the better off he is.

We don't know his land. Much of the land in LOS has a high water table. For all we know he could dig a productive pond. It certainly takes less energy to lift from a pond than from a deep water well. Someone just told him how much water can be pumped from a pond with a single cylinder diesel with a 4 inch hose, and with specificity about the machine, time and number of rai.

Yes it's random information about random land we don't know much about. I like all of the information I can get including how much water a single cylinder Kubota will pump in terms of area irrigated and pipe size used.

We have no idea what he will end up doing. We don't know whether he'll have almost no water, or a flood of it. At the least he surely has a lot of information to consider.

I agree. More information is better. It helps to spark ideas. I have a single cylinder diesel Kubota and a 2" pump, but the water here is not that great so pumping straight out into the field is time-consuming. I would rather spend my time building a system that I could watch work rather than move pipe by hand for the rest of the year.

I think you take your avatar a little too serious Naam. Warf was a Klingon warrior. We are not at war. This is not Star Trek. We're just trying to figure out some shit in a friendly way. Actually my only question was if anyone had any experience working a drip system with less than 10 psi. A simple "no" would suffice.

i have designed for three of my homes irrigation systems, each a combination of sprinklers, drip and underground soaking. but no limitations as far as available water volume, flow, pressure or power was/is concerned. your case is different because you lack all of the afore-mentioned.

"figuring out some shit in a friendly way" based on irrelevant yada yada yakety-yak is not exactly my favourite pastime. but if you are interested in academic information that won't help saving your problems i could write a bunch of pages concerning pumps, pressure, pipe/valve resistance, flow and a variety of other related topics. what about a triple water cooling system for a power plant or desalination plant and its attached supply/distribution system stretching from the Persian Gulf 400km to Riyadh ? the choice is yours.

I think you'll find that most of us farang hobby farmers are not real strong on the technical academic aspects of much of anything. I try something and if it works, great. If it doesn't work I will have learned something and will try something different. I have learned from experience that regular jet pumps have a difficult time pumping water from deeper than five meters when the pump is at ground level. I have also learned that two pipe deep well pumps don't deliver enough water for anything except small garden irrigation. Submersible pumps of the same horsepower as a deep well pump will deliver several times the amount of water that comes from a two pipe deep well pump.

I am interested in trying an air powered deep well pump. I don't know if a gasoline or diesel driven air compressor would be any more efficient than a gasoline or diesel generator driving a submersible pump. That's a good research project for an academic to investigate.

Do your homework carefully on that air lift pump. You have several wasted motions, and no positive displacement. Heat is energy, and all of the heat built up in a compressor both from friction and from the direct compression of the fluid air is lost energy. Just touch the air tank on a compressor after it warms up. Why not have that powerful motor directly drive a positive displacement pump?

Another thing is that at least 60% of the length of your tubing for the air lift must be submerged. Therefore if you have a 200' well with a 100' static level, it will never operate. It will work well only in a well with a high static level of water.

[Gary A]

I'd like nothing better than to park the tak tak beside the well and put a belt on a pulley. A drive shaft 36 meters long is not much of a viable option so a lift type pump like the old hand pumps would work if I were smart enough to design a crank, the size and length of the cylinder and the rest of the mechanical items. The problem is if this were a good idea, someone would already have done it and marketed the design. when I was a kid, my grandfather eliminated the hand pump and ran it with a windmill so I know it would work.

The question is that although it kept the water tank for the livestock full would it be of any use for the huge amount of water needed for irrigation. The dunking ducks used for pumping oil from thousands of feet deep do the job but the volume of oil pumped is pretty small.

[NeverSure]

I'd like nothing better than to park the tak tak beside the well and put a belt on a pulley. A drive shaft 36 meters long is not much of a viable option so a lift type pump like the old hand pumps would work if I were smart enough to design a crank, the size and length of the cylinder and the rest of the mechanical items. The problem is if this were a good idea, someone would already have done it and marketed the design. when I was a kid, my grandfather eliminated the hand pump and ran it with a windmill so I know it would work.

The question is that although it kept the water tank for the livestock full would it be of any use for the huge amount of water needed for irrigation. The dunking ducks used for pumping oil from thousands of feet deep do the job but the volume of oil pumped is pretty small.

Those old pumps in reality could pump water from only about 25 feet, depending on the atmospheric pressure. That was it for the standard "pitcher pump" with the leather seals. A foot valve was used on wind pumps which are commonly misnamed windmills. Mills grind grain. Wind pumps have the design you are thinking of, I'd guess. They have a crankshaft which moves a pipe, much as in the youtube vid below.

So I'm not sure where the 36 feet comes in but if it's depth to water, it won't work unless you switch to a foot valve type. At an angle, it could pull water much farther as long as the total lift wasn't more than about 25 feet.

Edited January 15, 2013 by NeverSure

[NeverSure]

Here's how to use a modern foot valve to make a "survival" pump. I see these valves as stock items at the local building centers and I used one to "repair" an antique pitcher pump because the cast iron was cracked where one of the leather valve seals seated.

[Naam]

I think you'll find that most of us farang hobby farmers are not real strong on the technical academic aspects of much of anything. I try something and if it works, great. If it doesn't work I will have learned something and will try something different. I have learned from experience that regular jet pumps have a difficult time pumping water from deeper than five meters when the pump is at ground level. I have also learned that two pipe deep well pumps don't deliver enough water for anything except small garden irrigation. Submersible pumps of the same horsepower as a deep well pump will deliver several times the amount of water that comes from a two pipe deep well pump.

I am interested in trying an air powered deep well pump. I don't know if a gasoline or diesel driven air compressor would be any more efficient than a gasoline or diesel generator driving a submersible pump. That's a good research project for an academic to investigate.

i think the jet pump difficulty "deeper than five meters" is an exaggeration Gary. that system is used to pump crude oil from from the depths of several thousand meters (record achieved 2011 in Saudi Arabia 9,800 meters depth)! of course a submersible pump beats any jet pump "hands down" using half (or even less) of the energy a jet pump gobbles up; but that's basic pump physics.

in Thailand i have a deep well (32m) and because i had some problems in the U.S. with access to the well when taking out and replacing a pump hit by lightning i favoured a surface mount jet pump in Thailand too (same reason, no access for heavy equipment. the trial results were:

-submersible pump 1HP, depth 26m, flow ~3.8m³/hour

-submersible pump 2HP, depth 26m, flow ~6.0m³/hour

-jet pump 2HP, depth 26m, flow ~3.1m³/hour

i haven't heard of any air powered deep well pump (i think you mean jet pump) but shooting from the hip i claim that the energy input is without any doubt definitely higher than that of a submersible pump powered by a generator.

[Gary A]

I think you'll find that most of us farang hobby farmers are not real strong on the technical academic aspects of much of anything. I try something and if it works, great. If it doesn't work I will have learned something and will try something different. I have learned from experience that regular jet pumps have a difficult time pumping water from deeper than five meters when the pump is at ground level. I have also learned that two pipe deep well pumps don't deliver enough water for anything except small garden irrigation. Submersible pumps of the same horsepower as a deep well pump will deliver several times the amount of water that comes from a two pipe deep well pump.

I am interested in trying an air powered deep well pump. I don't know if a gasoline or diesel driven air compressor would be any more efficient than a gasoline or diesel generator driving a submersible pump. That's a good research project for an academic to investigate.

i think the jet pump difficulty "deeper than five meters" is an exaggeration Gary. that system is used to pump crude oil from from the depths of several thousand meters (record achieved 2011 in Saudi Arabia 9,800 meters depth)! of course a submersible pump beats any jet pump "hands down" using half (or even less) of the energy a jet pump gobbles up; but that's basic pump physics.

in Thailand i have a deep well (32m) and because i had some problems in the U.S. with access to the well when taking out and replacing a pump hit by lightning i favoured a surface mount jet pump in Thailand too (same reason, no access for heavy equipment. the trial results were:

-submersible pump 1HP, depth 26m, flow ~3.8m³/hour

-submersible pump 2HP, depth 26m, flow ~6.0m³/hour

-jet pump 2HP, depth 26m, flow ~3.1m³/hour

i haven't heard of any air powered deep well pump (i think you mean jet pump) but shooting from the hip i claim that the energy input is without any doubt definitely higher than that of a submersible pump powered by a generator.

Google Brumby pumps and you will find many videos and a lot of information from Brumby. I was interested until I saw their prices for a plastic pump with no moving parts except check valves. My one HP submersible pump was cheaper.

By a jet pump, I was referring to the common centrifugal well pumps that most everyone uses for their houses. Being an academic, you will know that a perfect vacuum will only suck water from 30 feet and these pumps are far from able to draw a perfect vacuum.

[Naam]

By a jet pump, I was referring to the common centrifugal well pumps that most everyone uses for their houses. Being an academic, you will know that a perfect vacuum will only suck water from 30 feet and these pumps are far from able to draw a perfect vacuum.

wrong! a jet pump is not a common pump but a pump designed to pump water by suction from a depth beyond the athmospheric pressure limit of 10meters (plus minus a certain percentage depending on height above sea level) using a second pipe to return a part of the water with prerssure and the venturi principle as a method to overcome the limitations of a normal suction pump. take a look at the picture below or google for a simple explanation.

[Gary A]

That is a two pipe deep well pump that I referred to in an earlier post;

"Submersible pumps of the same horsepower as a deep well pump will deliver several times the amount of water that comes from a two pipe deep well pump."

Sorry about using the wrong terminology.

[rice555]

Hello All,if you guys ever figure out your pressure and pumps, this is what you can do.

This is from the links at the top of www.netafim.com

Netafim and other Co's will be at Hortasia 2013 in BKK in a few months, Netafim Thailand

has done some drip-cane projects in LOS.

rice555

The Philippines is a sugar-producing country, growing it mainly on the islands of Negros, Luzon, Panay and Mindanao.

Recently, the Philippine government passed the Biofuel Act of 2006 (or Republic Act 9367) which created a certain market for ethanol investors in the Philippines and paved the way for the development of a new industry: fuel ethanol production.

Sugarcane is expected to be the predominant source of feedstock for ethanol production. Commercial production of ethanol from sugarcane will help the country diversify its fuel portfolio and ensure its energy security.

Presently, sugarcane farmers produce an average of only 65 tons of cane/ha potentially yielding only 70 liters (18.5 gallons) or 4550 liters/ha/year (145 gallons/ha/year) of ethanol per metric ton using sugarcane as feedstock.

This ratio is very low when compared to the potential cane yields (120 to 150 tons/ha) achieved in Brazil, India, South Africa and other regions growing sugarcane with drip irrigation and fertigation. Therefore, new and innovative sustainable technologies are needed, not only to raise and sustain sugarcane productivity per hectare, but also to enable the consistent supply of feedstock to bio-refineries at lower costs and to meet domestic sugar demands.

As both the food and energy industries use scarce and expensive resources such as water and fertilizers, a solution is required to ensure a more competitive position, especially within the global market.

Situation

• Food and agro-industrial crop
  
• Climatic change and water scarcity concerns
  
• Rising fertilizer and labor costs
  
• Leaching and washing away of nutrients by runoff
  
• Low water and fertilizer use efficiency
  
• Low cane productivity/ha
  
• Favorable biofuel policy
  

Why is drip needed?

• Economic importance of sugarcane in meeting sugar and fuel ethanol demands and to generate employment.
  
• To conserve water, increase water and fertilizer use efficiency.
  
• To optimize cane yields.
  

Sugar mill name

San Carlos Bio Energy Incorporated

Farm details

• Location: San Carlos Bio Energy Incorporated, Hacienda vasconia, brgy. Palampas (09° 30' 0" N-latitude, 122° 40' 0" E-longitude), San Carlos City,
  
• Negros Occidental, Philippines
  
• Area: 7.2 ha
  
• Crop varieties: 88-39, 84524, 87599
  
• Crop spacing: Row to row – 1.5 m and plant to plant – 0.15 m
  
• Seed rate: 50000 number of three-bud setts/ha
  
• Plant population at harvest: 130,000 millable canes/ha
  
• Crop season: Sowing March 28, 2007 & April 3, 2007
  
• Climate: Equatorial humid climate with dry winter, frost free
  
• Maximum temperature: 32.9°C
  
• Minimum temperature: 24.2°C
  
• Mean vapor pressure: 29 hPa
  
• Mean wind speed: 3.7 km/hour
  
• Rainfall: 2608 mm/year; effective rainfall: 1278 mm/year
  
• Reference crop evapotranspiration: 1478 mm/year
  
• Moisture availability index: 1.76
  
• Other climate-related indicators: Day length: 12.1 hours; sunshine duration: 6.0 hours
  
• Soil physical properties: Clayey soil texture
  
• Soil pH: 6.6
  
• Bulk density: 1.3 g/cm3
  
• Water table: below 6 m
  
• Soil chemical properties: N (0.05%), P (6 mg/kg), K (0.4 meq/100 soil), Ca (39.0 meq/100 soil), Na (0.5 meq/100 soil)
  
• Soil salinity (ECe): 0.45 dS/m
  
• Water source: Canal water
  
• Power source: Diesel pump
  

Agro-solution: What has been done?

Subsurface drip irrigation (SDI) system

Head control unit, main and sub-main pipes besides DripNet PC integral dripline 16 mm diameter, with a lateral spacing of 1.5 m, emitter spacing of 0.5 m and emitter flow rate 1.0 Liters/hour.

Each crop row was irrigated with one dripline installed at 0.3 m below the soil.

Year of drip system installation: 2007

Agronomic and technical support

Crop water requirement and irrigation scheduling: Depth and frequency of water application; water quality consideration, measurement of applied water.

Fertigation scheduling: Soil and water analysis, estimation of nutrient dose, selection of fertilizers and compatibility, application skill via drip system and foliar diagnosis for nutrient deficiencies.

System operation and maintenance: Pressure reading and maintenance, valves operation, measurement of applied water. Cleaning of filters, fertilizer tank, acid treatment, chlorination, etc.

Training and capacity building: Soil water plant relationships, drip irrigation and fertigation principles, benefits, limitations and utility; water quality and herbicide usage.

Results

Improved cane yield: Conventional overhead sprinkler irrigation - 70.0 tons/ha and with subsurface drip yield increased by 90% (133.5 tons/ha).

Improved cane quality: Increase in sucrose content by 5.2% in comparison to overhead sprinkler irrigation.

Water requirement and saving: Conventional overhead sprinkler irrigation – 13000 m3/ha (1300 mm/ha) and with subsurface drip – 3000 m3/ha (300 mm/ha). The water saving by drip over center pivot sprinkler is 70% or 10000 m3/year/ha. As an illustration, the saved water can irrigate 3.3 ha.

Economic indices: Higher net returns by subsurface drip (919 US$/ha) in comparison to overhead sprinkler irrigation.

Other benefits: Savings in fuel expenses, uniform intermodal length, higher cane diameter, improvement in fertilizer use efficiency, management flexibility, less weed growth, uniform irrigation of sugarcane on undulated terrains.

Impact

• Drip irrigation of sugarcane in Philippines is a feasible eco-technological and economically viable technology.
  
• Sustainable use of scarce water resources in sugarcane cultivation in order to bring a larger area under cane cultivation near the sugar mill.
  
• Higher productivity and sucrose content, food security and increased income for farmers.
  
• Farmers and ethanol bio-refineries are willing to expand drip irrigation to remaining cane areas. Approximately 217 ha of the sugarcane area is being brought under subsurface drip irrigation during 2008.
  
• Sugarcane best management practices: Subsurface drip irrigation (SDI) and fertigation scheduling.
  

Grow More: 90% cane yield

With Less: Water conservation 70%

[Canada]

Thanks for that 555.

[ozzydom]

Back to the sugar beets, no irrigation, etc.

It is always the case that a dry land farm will produce less than one with irrigation, all other things being equal. BUT it costs a lot of money to install and run an irrigation system of any sophistication. Installation and maintenance costs were the only reasons I suggested thinking of ditching the rows and flooding. That's if you have enough water.

So, sometimes a dry land farm will be more profitable than an irrigated one. Yield is only one thing. I'm telling you, a real irrigation system is expensive. It takes power (energy costs) and work to maintain it during the season. It takes maintenance in the off season. Someone is working it every day. I see those 1/4 mile long wheel lines running and only wonder how much electricity they are using. I know how much water they are using. I know how much they cost and it's staggering.

We had (family still has) 2,000 of 4,000 acres in dry land wheat. All we had to do was to till and fertilize and plant it. The planter fertilized at the same time. We pull the implements with a large cat. Then once during the season we hire a crop duster to fly on a broad leaf herbicide to kill weeds and increase yield. Then it's a matter of running the combines and dump trucks through and hauling it to the elevator. If we irrigated it we would double our costs but not our yields.

Just for giggles, these circles are 1/2 mile diameter. The sprinkler lines are 1/4 mile long and pivot from the middle. Here's a couple of designs. The wheels are huge and powered by hydraulic motors and water pressure. The line is kept straight by sensing micro-switches. Someone had some money to burn.

If you know where to look,broadacre overhead sprinkler traveller irrigation is alive and working in N/E Thailand growing potatoes and corn in rotation for Lays factor.ies

Water comes from an adjacent river via barge mounted V10 diesels driving 15inch two stage pumps, its a very large corporate operation

As NeverSure says ,those systems with their 8foot diameter hydraulic drive wheels are really something.to behold..