Algerian Hostage Drama

[Scott]

Algeria hostage drama

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- The Foreign Ministry was yesterday checking to verify a report that Thai workers were among a group of foreigners being held hostage by an al Qaeda-linked group at a natural-gas complex in Algeria, Information Department director-general Manasvi Srisodapol said.

About 70 Thais work on a separate, offshore gas-drilling platform.

Thirty-five hostages and 15 of their captors were killed when Algerian security forces stormed the complex, according to Al-Jazeera television and Mauritania's private ANI news agency. The militants had been trying to move the hostages in vehicles when they came under attack.

-- The Nation 2013-01-18

[Scott]

Some posters have been asking for information about the hostage situation. Due to copyright concerns, thaivisa must exercise care in what we post and sources. Please feel free to post about the situation in this thread.

[kutjebu]

British Prime Minister David Cameron warned his compatriots to prepare for "bad news ahead" related to kidnapping of dozens of hostages at a gas facility in Algeria.CNN

[webfact]

Foreign and national hostages among killed in Algeria hostage crisis

2013-01-18 09:02:59 GMT+7 (ICT)

ALGIERS, ALGERIA (BNO NEWS) -- Both foreign and national hostages have been reported killed after Algerian authorities intervened in a hostage crisis in the African country, local media reported Thursday.

The hostage crisis took place in the Ain Amenas natural gas plant, located in Tiguentourine in the Sahara, within the southeastern region of the country and near the Libyan border, where militant groups that have been linked to al-Qaeda claimed to have taken at least 41 foreign nationals hostage.

As Algerian armed forces began surrounding the gas plant's facilities, media reports said militant leader Abu al-Baraa demanded them to retreat from the area in order to negotiate the hostage crisis. However, the Algerian army carried out its rescue operation - not agreeing to negotiate with 'terrorists' - and a number of hostages, both foreign and national, as well as militants were reported dead.

Exact details remain uncertain, but different media outlets have reported at least 30 and up to 35 killed hostages following the raid. Among the hostages' nationalities are Americans, Japanese, French, British, Norweigan, and other Europeans, although details may defer. In addition, reports said fifteen attackers were also killed.

Algerian Minister of Communication Mohamed Said spoke to the media, stating that the operation had ended. However, he said authorities were still working on freeing some of the hostages. Some media reports continued suggesting that a number of militants were still holding hostages.

British Prime Minister David Cameron confirmed the death of at least one British national, describing the situation as 'very dangerous' and 'uncertain.' "I think we have to prepare ourselves or the possibility of bad news ahead," he said.

Meanwhile, British Foreign Office Minister Alistair Burt said that "although details have yet to become final, I am afraid we should be under no illusion that there will be some bad and distressing news to follow from this terrorist attack."

Earlier reports from the state-run Algerian Press Service said that hundreds of national workers were freed, in addition to two Scots, a Kenyan and a French national.

The Ain Amenas gas plant is operated by BP, Statoil from Norway, and Algeria's state energy company. The attack was apparently triggered following France's decision to deploy its military into Mali, also in northern Africa.

-- © BNO News All rights reserved 2013-01-18

[emanphoto]

And in the end, nothing was accomplished. Nothing.

[Yahooka]

And in the end, nothing was accomplished. Nothing.

What do you mean ??

[koheesti]

And in the end, nothing was accomplished. Nothing.

Well, terrorists will think twice about taking hostages with the Algerian army around.

[Mudcrab]

gee glad there weren't any Muslims involved

[balo]

iI feel sorry for my friend that is worried about his Norwegian friend , who is one of the hostages in Algeria , waiting for news.

[koheesti]

Was it a hostage rescue...or did the Algerian military not know the hostages were in the vehicles they targeted?

In the future, it's probably better to take hostages where the military is better trained and concerned with NOT killing the hostages.

Has there been any word on the 7 or so that are still unaccounted for?

[Steely Dan]

Well it looks like deposing Gaddafi has done wonders for the stability of the region. Obviously the loss of innocent civilians is tragic, but perhaps events such as this may little by little convince western governments they are fighting an ideological mortal enemy, and the battlefield is as large as the world is.

[Sing_Sling]

Well it looks like deposing Gaddafi has done wonders for the stability of the region. Obviously the loss of innocent civilians is tragic, but perhaps events such as this may little by little convince western governments they are fighting an ideological mortal enemy, and the battlefield is as large as the world is.

I fail to see the connection wit Libya - it is far too simplistic to expect the world's troubles to vanish because a fly was squashed.

The problems in Algeria go back decades and decades - you should read up on it, quite interesting stuff. My first wife's father was a pied-noir (so, my first father-in-law) and the tales he told were simply astounding

[JemJem]

Sadly, as of now, it is still not clear as to how exactly the rescue operation went and how many/who made it out of there alive and how many/who didn't. It must be very very tough times for the loved ones of the hostages.

[koheesti]

Well it looks like deposing Gaddafi has done wonders for the stability of the region. Obviously the loss of innocent civilians is tragic, but perhaps events such as this may little by little convince western governments they are fighting an ideological mortal enemy, and the battlefield is as large as the world is.

I fail to see the connection wit Libya - it is far too simplistic to expect the world's troubles to vanish because a fly was squashed.

The problems in Algeria go back decades and decades - you should read up on it, quite interesting stuff. My first wife's father was a pied-noir (so, my first father-in-law) and the tales he told were simply astounding

The complex where the hostages were taken is very close to the Libyan border. I thought I had read they actually came from Libya.

[geriatrickid]

Well it looks like deposing Gaddafi has done wonders for the stability of the region. Obviously the loss of innocent civilians is tragic, but perhaps events such as this may little by little convince western governments they are fighting an ideological mortal enemy, and the battlefield is as large as the world is.

Algeria has been the venue for similar attacks in the past, so this is nothing new.

In any case, subsequent to the Arab Spring, the attacks had declined. It has absolutely no connection to Libya. The hostage taking was a retaliatory action to the French taking on rebels in Mali.

Edited January 18, 2013 by geriatrickid

[Steely Dan]

Well it looks like deposing Gaddafi has done wonders for the stability of the region. Obviously the loss of innocent civilians is tragic, but perhaps events such as this may little by little convince western governments they are fighting an ideological mortal enemy, and the battlefield is as large as the world is.

Algeria has been the venue for similar attacks in the past, so this is nothing new.

In any case, subsequent to the Arab Spring, the attacks had declined. It has absolutely no connection to Libya. The hostage taking was a retaliatory action to the French taking on rebels in Mali.

and where did the rebels in Mali get their military hardware from? I posted a link on the Mali thread concerning the fallout from the Libyan fighting, here it is at it is directly relevant.

http://www.debka.com/article/22687/Standoff-on-Day-2-of-Algerian-Al-Qaeda-hostage-crisis

suffice to say, not for the first time western nations are having their own weapons used against them.

[Sing_Sling]

Well it looks like deposing Gaddafi has done wonders for the stability of the region. Obviously the loss of innocent civilians is tragic, but perhaps events such as this may little by little convince western governments they are fighting an ideological mortal enemy, and the battlefield is as large as the world is.

Algeria has been the venue for similar attacks in the past, so this is nothing new.

In any case, subsequent to the Arab Spring, the attacks had declined. It has absolutely no connection to Libya. The hostage taking was a retaliatory action to the French taking on rebels in Mali.

and where did the rebels in Mali get their military hardware from? I posted a link on the Mali thread concerning the fallout from the Libyan fighting, here it is at it is directly relevant.

http://www.debka.com...-hostage-crisis

suffice to say, not for the first time western nations are having their own weapons used against them.

That still has nothing to do with the 'West' taking out Ghadafi . . .

[F430murci]

Well it looks like deposing Gaddafi has done wonders for the stability of the region. Obviously the loss of innocent civilians is tragic, but perhaps events such as this may little by little convince western governments they are fighting an ideological mortal enemy, and the battlefield is as large as the world is.

Algeria has been the venue for similar attacks in the past, so this is nothing new.

In any case, subsequent to the Arab Spring, the attacks had declined. It has absolutely no connection to Libya. The hostage taking was a retaliatory action to the French taking on rebels in Mali.

and where did the rebels in Mali get their military hardware from? I posted a link on the Mali thread concerning the fallout from the Libyan fighting, here it is at it is directly relevant.

http://www.debka.com/article/22687/Standoff-on-Day-2-of-Algerian-Al-Qaeda-hostage-crisis

suffice to say, not for the first time western nations are having their own weapons used against them.

Haha, that is some intellectual thought provoking reading for sue!

"Iran sends monkeys into space – so can place nukes anywhere on earth"

Maybe there are going to place nukes in my kitchen. If wife does nit clean, I will just turn it to marble for some new counter tops.

[Steely Dan]

Well it looks like deposing Gaddafi has done wonders for the stability of the region. Obviously the loss of innocent civilians is tragic, but perhaps events such as this may little by little convince western governments they are fighting an ideological mortal enemy, and the battlefield is as large as the world is.

Algeria has been the venue for similar attacks in the past, so this is nothing new.

In any case, subsequent to the Arab Spring, the attacks had declined. It has absolutely no connection to Libya. The hostage taking was a retaliatory action to the French taking on rebels in Mali.

and where did the rebels in Mali get their military hardware from? I posted a link on the Mali thread concerning the fallout from the Libyan fighting, here it is at it is directly relevant.

http://www.debka.com...-hostage-crisis

suffice to say, not for the first time western nations are having their own weapons used against them.

That still has nothing to do with the 'West' taking out Ghadafi . . .

Libya is next door to Algeria, and the west were neck deep in arming Ghadaffis opponents - just as we armed the Taliban to fight the Russians years back. If you have trouble seeing the link I'm not sure you will ever be convinced, I will post a link summarizing affairs on the Mali thread as it's getting off topic here.

[simple1]

Libya is next door to Algeria, and the west were neck deep in arming Ghadaffis opponents - just as we armed the Taliban to fight the Russians years back. If you have trouble seeing the link I'm not sure you will ever be convinced, I will post a link summarizing affairs on the Mali thread as it's getting off topic here.

Sorry the West did not arm the Taliban to fight the Russians. They only came into being as an organisation after the Russians were defeated in 1989, by the various mujahideen groups who then commenced infighting amongst each other.. Thence the raison d'etre for the formation of the Taliban in 1994 to bring the inter group warfare and corruption to an end. They were initially supported by the civilian population.

[Sing_Sling]

and where did the rebels in Mali get their military hardware from? I posted a link on the Mali thread concerning the fallout from the Libyan fighting, here it is at it is directly relevant.

http://www.debka.com...-hostage-crisis

suffice to say, not for the first time western nations are having their own weapons used against them.

That still has nothing to do with the 'West' taking out Ghadafi . . .

Libya is next door to Algeria, and the west were neck deep in arming Ghadaffis opponents - just as we armed the Taliban to fight the Russians years back. If you have trouble seeing the link I'm not sure you will ever be convinced, I will post a link summarizing affairs on the Mali thread as it's getting off topic here.

Nothing you have shown determines that the West supported the Libyan rebels with the plan that doing so would eliminate fundamentalist whackjobs and/or create peace in the region.

If you have documents stating the contrary then I would be very interested in reading them.

[Chicog]

According to the latest bulletin there are still 30 unaccounted for, and the Algerian forces tried to free some again last night, resulting in yet more deaths.

I would like to think US or British special forces are there by now. Get the Algerian keystone cops out of the way and put some professionals on the job.

[Steely Dan]

Nothing you have shown determines that the West supported the Libyan rebels with the plan that doing so would eliminate fundamentalist whackjobs and/or create peace in the region.

If you have documents stating the contrary then I would be very interested in reading them.

You are misrepresenting my point, which is through a failure to understand the geopolitical reality existing, the western powers made things worse by removing Gadaffi, who actually aided regional stability by keeping the Islamists in their box. By presuming you could somehow bring together sundry Libyan tribes, some whom were very conservative, and end up with anything resembling democracy was delusional at best.

The arms used by the rebels were always likely to find an outlet elsewhere rather than be returned to storehouses for the yet to be created Libyan army. I think the term is 'blowback', which takes a matter of weeks these days as oppose to the years it took for past mistakes.

[Chicog]

Nothing you have shown determines that the West supported the Libyan rebels with the plan that doing so would eliminate fundamentalist whackjobs and/or create peace in the region.

If you have documents stating the contrary then I would be very interested in reading them.

You are misrepresenting my point, which is through a failure to understand the geopolitical reality existing, the western powers made things worse by removing Gadaffi, who actually aided regional stability by keeping the Islamists in their box. By presuming you could somehow bring together sundry Libyan tribes, some whom were very conservative, and end up with anything resembling democracy was delusional at best.

The arms used by the rebels were always likely to find an outlet elsewhere rather than be returned to storehouses for the yet to be created Libyan army. I think the term is 'blowback', which takes a matter of weeks these days as oppose to the years it took for past mistakes.

Radical Islamists have existed in Mali for more than ten years - this all predated Gaddafi's overthrow. I don't think Libya is an issue here.

[simple1]

You will find that many, if not most, of the Islamic extremists in Mali are Tuareg. The Tuareg were armed, trained and fought for the Qaddafi regeime. Upon the fall of Qaddafi they helped themselves to extra weapons and intensified the insurgency in Mali. For more detail go to http://en.wikipedia....ebellion_(2012)

The Tuareg are also affiliated with Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, one of whose alleged ex leaders has lead the assault on the gas installation in Algeria and have carried out many other terrorists actions in Algeria. At this point I understand the attackers have yet to be publicly identified by tribe/nationality.

With much regret in this instance I have to agree with Steely Dan. The unintended consequences of the fall of Qaddafi is increased conflict in the region with many insurgencies in Africa having weapons from Libya, remember they acted as mercenaries for Qaddafi. There again Qaddafi also supported some conflicts in the region.

Edited January 19, 2013 by simple1

[Chicog]

I tend to agree with your last paragraph but this was going to happen eventually anyway. The Islamisation of Africa is far more advanced than most people think.

[folium]

You will find that many, if not most, of the Islamic extremists in Mali are Tuareg. The Tuareg were armed, trained and fought for the Qaddafi regeime. Upon the fall of Qaddafi they helped themselves to extra weapons and intensified the insurgency in Mali. For more detail go to http://en.wikipedia....ebellion_(2012)

The Tuareg are also affiliated with Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, one of whose alleged ex leaders has lead the assault on the gas installation in Algeria and have carried out many other terrorists actions in Algeria. At this point I understand the attackers have yet to be publicly identified by tribe/nationality.

With much regret in this instance I have to agree with Steely Dan. The unintended consequences of the fall of Qaddafi is increased conflict in the region with many insurgencies in Africa having weapons from Libya, remember they acted as mercenaries for Qaddafi. There again Qaddafi also supported some conflicts in the region.

Good news Simple1...you need not have to agree with Dan on this one! Simply because the idea that Qaddafi was a funny little dictator who did beastly things to his own people but didn't cause much fuss elsewhere, and was not even very muslim, is simply not supported by those tricky old fashioned things called facts...

In a nutshell (somewhat appropriate word given the subject), Qaddafi caused trouble globally on an epic scale.

He invaded/intervened militarily/undertook operations/trained/fought wars with/in: Chad, Egypt, CAR, Uganda, Darfur/Sudan, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Cyprus, USA, Zimbabwe.

He armed, funded and trained terrorist organizations/terrorist acts courtesy of PIRA (UK), JRA (worldwide), RAF (Germany), Black September, any Palestinian faction, Red Brigades (Italy), <deleted>/NPA/Abu Sayyaf in the Philippines. He even tried to instigate violence through Maoris and Aboriginals in Oceania, and plotted with terrorist groups in a totally indiscriminate fashion. My "enemy's enemy is my friend" was his only stipulation.

In Mali, and the rest of Sahelian Africa, Qaddafi long funded/trained and supported Tuareg separatist organizations and used them as expendable mercenaries during the recent Civil War.

Re the weaponry in Mali, given the fact that the Tuareg mercenaries fought for Qaddafi I can't quite see NATO or Qatar dropping weapons off with them during the Libyan Civil War! Qaddafi had stockpiled vast quantities of hardware across Libya and the looting and subsequent trading of this equipment is what accounts for the weaponry now being used by AQIM etc in Mali.

And I forgot to mention that Qaddafi had extensive quantities of chemical weapons (used against at least Chadian troops in the Aozou Strip), and had badgered all rogue nuclear states and the Soviet Union for a nuclear capability. One wish that was sadly never granted, apparently...

Such a nice guy, the world is definitely better off without him, whatever the "blowback".

Edited January 19, 2013 by folium

[folium]

You will find that many, if not most, of the Islamic extremists in Mali are Tuareg. The Tuareg were armed, trained and fought for the Qaddafi regeime. Upon the fall of Qaddafi they helped themselves to extra weapons and intensified the insurgency in Mali. For more detail go to http://en.wikipedia....ebellion_(2012)

The Tuareg are also affiliated with Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, one of whose alleged ex leaders has lead the assault on the gas installation in Algeria and have carried out many other terrorists actions in Algeria. At this point I understand the attackers have yet to be publicly identified by tribe/nationality.

With much regret in this instance I have to agree with Steely Dan. The unintended consequences of the fall of Qaddafi is increased conflict in the region with many insurgencies in Africa having weapons from Libya, remember they acted as mercenaries for Qaddafi. There again Qaddafi also supported some conflicts in the region.

Your reference re the Tuareg making up the ranks of the insurgents in Mali is not wholly accurate. While the Tuareg MNLA, largely composed of Libyan trained and equipped soldiers, was responsible for the initial removal of government forces from northern Mali in late 2012, their inability to take control enabled the likes of AQIM & MUJAW to take advantage of the power vacuum and drive out many Tuareg insurgents, who were given short shrift in southern Mali and have now fled into Mauritania and other neighbouring countries.

Similarly when we finally get a headcount/bodycount of the group that attacked the gas facility in Algeria the list of nationalities re the attackers is likely to be lengthy and reflect the regional nature of this conflict.

[JemJem]

I tend to agree with your last paragraph but this was going to happen eventually anyway. The Islamisation of Africa is far more advanced than most people think.

I don't know about the truth of your second sentence but yes, the Jihadi forces in Africa are a big cause for concern. Yesterday, a Nigerian person was claiming, on BBC, that the majority of jihadi people in Mali and Nigeria are not from those countries but come from North Africa and Middle East. Is this true, I wonder ?

[Steely Dan]

You will find that many, if not most, of the Islamic extremists in Mali are Tuareg. The Tuareg were armed, trained and fought for the Qaddafi regeime. Upon the fall of Qaddafi they helped themselves to extra weapons and intensified the insurgency in Mali. For more detail go to http://en.wikipedia....ebellion_(2012)

The Tuareg are also affiliated with Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, one of whose alleged ex leaders has lead the assault on the gas installation in Algeria and have carried out many other terrorists actions in Algeria. At this point I understand the attackers have yet to be publicly identified by tribe/nationality.

With much regret in this instance I have to agree with Steely Dan. The unintended consequences of the fall of Qaddafi is increased conflict in the region with many insurgencies in Africa having weapons from Libya, remember they acted as mercenaries for Qaddafi. There again Qaddafi also supported some conflicts in the region.

Good news Simple1...you need not have to agree with Dan on this one! Simply because the idea that Qaddafi was a funny little dictator who did beastly things to his own people but didn't cause much fuss elsewhere, and was not even very muslim, is simply not supported by those tricky old fashioned things called facts...

In a nutshell (somewhat appropriate word given the subject), Qaddafi caused trouble globally on an epic scale.

He invaded/intervened militarily/undertook operations/trained/fought wars with/in: Chad, Egypt, CAR, Uganda, Darfur/Sudan, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Cyprus, USA, Zimbabwe.

He armed, funded and trained terrorist organizations/terrorist acts courtesy of PIRA (UK), JRA (worldwide), RAF (Germany), Black September, any Palestinian faction, Red Brigades (Italy), <deleted>/NPA/Abu Sayyaf in the Philippines. He even tried to instigate violence through Maoris and Aboriginals in Oceania, and plotted with terrorist groups in a totally indiscriminate fashion. My "enemy's enemy is my friend" was his only stipulation.

In Mali, and the rest of Sahelian Africa, Qaddafi long funded/trained and supported Tuareg separatist organizations and used them as expendable mercenaries during the recent Civil War.

Re the weaponry in Mali, given the fact that the Tuareg mercenaries fought for Qaddafi I can't quite see NATO or Qatar dropping weapons off with them during the Libyan Civil War! Qaddafi had stockpiled vast quantities of hardware across Libya and the looting and subsequent trading of this equipment is what accounts for the weaponry now being used by AQIM etc in Mali.

And I forgot to mention that Qaddafi had extensive quantities of chemical weapons (used against at least Chadian troops in the Aozou Strip), and had badgered all rogue nuclear states and the Soviet Union for a nuclear capability. One wish that was sadly never granted, apparently...

Such a nice guy, the world is definitely better off without him, whatever the "blowback".

Thanks for the posthumous resume of president Gaddhafi, most of it was as defunct as your favourite bete noir the IRA long before he was removed. Unlike Iran Gaddhafi disposed of his nuclear program and was so successful in convincing the west that he had become an ally in the so called war on terror that western firms were falling over themselves to supply Libya with arms, unlike Iran or Iraq for that matter. There was a recent article in the Guardian pointing out that some Tuareg were Islamist, but others definitely not, and indeed who might provide assistance in ridding Mali of Islamists, given Gaddhafi's supposed conversion to fighting the war on terror I would suggest it was this these who he employed, as oppose to the Islamist ones. Anyway, without the benefit of parallel universes it will never be possible to definitively state whether the fall of Gaddhafi was worth the resultant fallout - early days, but the signs are not promising.

Returning to the topic, Algeria has a military, who to their credit have managed to deal with their own Islamists. They will take no prisoners, or negotiate if their modus opperendi applies, which could well result in collateral damage to hostages. I suspect they will not request or desire western intervention. Egypt was similar in many respects, until we ruined a perfectly functional dictatorship in the name of democracy.