Abhisit seeks clarity on amnesty efforts

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- The government should specify the groups and individuals entitled to amnesty in order to give a clear idea of what the legal absolution would entail, Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva said yesterday.

"The amnesty is part of the reconciliation process but without clear guidelines, the amnesty debate can deepen the conflict," he said.

Abhisit said the Democrats did not oppose the absolution of violations committed due to political belief, although they wanted a clear classification of those qualified for amnesty.

He said he doubted whether cases involving assailants, such as the ones who had fired M-79 grenades into crowds and government installations, should be included in the amnesty review.

A hasty move to grant amnesty might set bad precedents on law enforcement, he added.

Future rally organisers might encourage violence in the hope of securing amnesty and offenders would cite political belief to justify their crimes, the former prime minister said.

He urged the government to show its goodwill by withdrawing the four coalition-sponsored draft bills on reconciliation.

If the bills were to be dropped, this would give a fresh start to frame the amnesty debate without animosity and suspicion between the coalition and the opposition, he said.

The draft provisions have the ulterior motive of rescuing fugitive former PM Thaksin Shinawatra and the coalition is using bullying tactics to try and silence the opposition, he maintained.

Meanwhile, Defence Minister Sukampol Suwannathat said he could not comment on the amnesty push by the January 29 faction of the red-shirt movement. The government has designated agencies to review the faction's call for amnesty and would give its reply in due course, he said.

House Speaker Somsak Kiatsuranont said if all sides would take part in a dialogue on how best to implement an amnesty, then this would be a good start to settling the political conflict.

He said the government should take the lead role to involve all sides in the amnesty debate.

-- The Nation 2013-01-31

_{Everybody knows that "amnesty bill" is an anagram for "free Thaksin" when the red shirts are playing scrabble with the PTP}

Good question Abhisit - just what is a justifiable as a form of political expression? I can condone civil disobedience, but surely murder, arson, use of bombs, grenades and high-powered weapons, and looting are not acceptable. Nor is inciting (and paying for) such violent acts.

Reading between the political lines here, Abhisit makes valid points where civil unrest (without violence) can be forgiven. He is doing a good job on reconciling without giving up on 'no amnesty' out of corruption related to criminal activities behind the civil unrest i.e. Thaksin. I feel the Reds would be appeased if some of their people were given amnesty based on verbiage inciting to riot, but none whatsoever on those who commit violence using protest as the excuse. Thaksin's matter does not even come into it as despite his claimed 'non-political' aspirations, he has in fact been criminally convicted. A whole different issue. Abhisit is aware of this and is playing the game.

We can see clearly here who should be the PM, this statement is that correct it isnt funny. Abhisit has really hit it on the nose with his comments, he has stated the obvious truth, those incited by the red leaders that didnt commit any physical pain/damage on anyone should be let off, while those that actually caused damage/physical harm on others should not. At least he has been able to give a solid opinion unlike the govt drunk who just didnt know what to say at all. Once again we see why the govt should be replaced, they are simply beyond their depth in this, they are there for personal gain only and care nothing for the people of the country, all they can do is try to manipulate everyone to their ways, they have taken bribery to new levels and are using their influence to try to damage the opposition using inuendo and accusations that are simply false. The sooner there is an election to rid this country of these goons the better.

Smart move - divide and conquor.

Goobledegook

"House Speaker Somsak Kiatsuranont said if all sides would take part in a dialogue on how best to implement an amnesty, then this would be a good start to settling the political conflict."

Notice he does not want to give the other sides a voice in who qualifies just in how it will be given to them.

The PT retains the sole rights to say who qualifies under his plan.

Does he have ear trouble to?

I guess he could always investigate the the most recent 'amnesty' and use this as a guidline....kind of wiped the slate clean for one side as I recall...

Reading between the political lines here, Abhisit makes valid points where civil unrest (without violence) can be forgiven. He is doing a good job on reconciling without giving up on 'no amnesty' out of corruption related to criminal activities behind the civil unrest i.e. Thaksin. I feel the Reds would be appeased if some of their people were given amnesty based on verbiage inciting to riot, but none whatsoever on those who commit violence using protest as the excuse.

However, in their typical anti-reconciliation manner, the Red Shirts do not see any of these distinctions.

Instead, they are demanding that all their defendants be released immediately and all charges be dropped...

as well as being financially compensated by the government for the injustice perpetrated against them blah blah, etc. etc.

.

Edited January 31, 201313 yr by Buchholz

I guess he could always investigate the the most recent 'amnesty' and use this as a guidline....kind of wiped the slate clean for one side as I recall...

"one side"? It wiped the slate clean for a group. I wouldn't really call it "one side".

Do you think it would pass a referendum?

We can see clearly here who should be the PM, this statement is that correct it isnt funny. Abhisit has really hit it on the nose with his comments, he has stated the obvious truth, those incited by the red leaders that didnt commit any physical pain/damage on anyone should be let off, while those that actually caused damage/physical harm on others should not. At least he has been able to give a solid opinion unlike the govt drunk who just didnt know what to say at all. Once again we see why the govt should be replaced, they are simply beyond their depth in this, they are there for personal gain only and care nothing for the people of the country, all they can do is try to manipulate everyone to their ways, they have taken bribery to new levels and are using their influence to try to damage the opposition using inuendo and accusations that are simply false. The sooner there is an election to rid this country of these goons the better.

A slight flaw in this post's argument (ignoring the rather dishonest ranting) is the challenge posed in the last sentence.All the evidence and polls suggest that if an election was held the government would be returned with a larger majority.

Edited January 31, 201313 yr by jayboy

We can see clearly here who should be the PM, this statement is that correct it isnt funny. Abhisit has really hit it on the nose with his comments, he has stated the obvious truth, those incited by the red leaders that didnt commit any physical pain/damage on anyone should be let off, while those that actually caused damage/physical harm on others should not. At least he has been able to give a solid opinion unlike the govt drunk who just didnt know what to say at all. Once again we see why the govt should be replaced, they are simply beyond their depth in this, they are there for personal gain only and care nothing for the people of the country, all they can do is try to manipulate everyone to their ways, they have taken bribery to new levels and are using their influence to try to damage the opposition using inuendo and accusations that are simply false. The sooner there is an election to rid this country of these goons the better.

A slight flaw in this post's argument (ignoring the rather dishonest ranting) is the challenge posed in the last sentence.All the evidence and polls suggest that if an election was held the government would be returned with a larger majority.

Not a flaw. Read it again. Stated another way is as soon as an election is held resulting in these goons being gotten rid of in this country the better. And I concure.

We can see clearly here who should be the PM, this statement is that correct it isnt funny. Abhisit has really hit it on the nose with his comments, he has stated the obvious truth, those incited by the red leaders that didnt commit any physical pain/damage on anyone should be let off, while those that actually caused damage/physical harm on others should not. At least he has been able to give a solid opinion unlike the govt drunk who just didnt know what to say at all. Once again we see why the govt should be replaced, they are simply beyond their depth in this, they are there for personal gain only and care nothing for the people of the country, all they can do is try to manipulate everyone to their ways, they have taken bribery to new levels and are using their influence to try to damage the opposition using inuendo and accusations that are simply false. The sooner there is an election to rid this country of these goons the better.

A slight flaw in this post's argument (ignoring the rather dishonest ranting) is the challenge posed in the last sentence.All the evidence and polls suggest that if an election was held the government would be returned with a larger majority.

Not a flaw. Read it again. Stated another way is as soon as an election is held resulting in these goons being gotten rid of in this country the better. And I concure.

You altered the last sentence to give it a completely different meaning.However it doesn't matter - the opposition is in disarray and the govenment is more popular than ever.That doesn't mean the government won't be removed but it would be through the usual military coup or directed judiciary (or whatever other stratagem the unelected elites dream up).All governments eventually grow unpopular and become tired and are rejected by the electorate.That's normal and necessary in a democracy since it's unhealthy for one party to hold office permanently.But for the time being an electoral defeat of the current government is unfeasible.

I guess he could always investigate the the most recent 'amnesty' and use this as a guidline....kind of wiped the slate clean for one side as I recall...

"one side"? It wiped the slate clean for a group. I wouldn't really call it "one side".

Do you think it would pass a referendum?

Not sure what amnesty you are talking about and I get a little bit edgy when I see secrecy.

I do understand the one group concept as compared to the one side concept. Like the present government several groups red shirt PT and other minor groups.

Out of them it would be no surprise for the red shirts to push for total amnesty for there part and the others can go fish. They are standing in there own way in there drive for what they call democracy.

Closed minds will not do the job for them.

We can see clearly here who should be the PM, this statement is that correct it isnt funny. Abhisit has really hit it on the nose with his comments, he has stated the obvious truth, those incited by the red leaders that didnt commit any physical pain/damage on anyone should be let off, while those that actually caused damage/physical harm on others should not. At least he has been able to give a solid opinion unlike the govt drunk who just didnt know what to say at all. Once again we see why the govt should be replaced, they are simply beyond their depth in this, they are there for personal gain only and care nothing for the people of the country, all they can do is try to manipulate everyone to their ways, they have taken bribery to new levels and are using their influence to try to damage the opposition using inuendo and accusations that are simply false. The sooner there is an election to rid this country of these goons the better.

A slight flaw in this post's argument (ignoring the rather dishonest ranting) is the challenge posed in the last sentence.All the evidence and polls suggest that if an election was held the government would be returned with a larger majority.

Not a flaw. Read it again. Stated another way is as soon as an election is held resulting in these goons being gotten rid of in this country the better. And I concure.

You altered the last sentence to give it a completely different meaning.However it doesn't matter - the opposition is in disarray and the govenment is more popular than ever.That doesn't mean the government won't be removed but it would be through the usual military coup or directed judiciary (or whatever other stratagem the unelected elites dream up).All governments eventually grow unpopular and become tired and are rejected by the electorate.That's normal and necessary in a democracy since it's unhealthy for one party to hold office permanently.But for the time being an electoral defeat of the current government is unfeasible.

As soon as the public realize that this govt is ripping them off and sending the country broke it will be removed, the sooner the better. At the moment they are simply bribing the public and relying on uneducated country people to keep them in power, they are sh*t scared of the truth coming out so they are instead trying to fit up the opposition with farcical charges but this will also backfire on them. Anyone that cannot see the truth in this is simply a red/thaksin devotee, the truth will emerge and the thaksinites will be removed, hopefully most will be charge]d with the bribery they are commiting.

We can see clearly here who should be the PM, this statement is that correct it isnt funny. Abhisit has really hit it on the nose with his comments, he has stated the obvious truth, those incited by the red leaders that didnt commit any physical pain/damage on anyone should be let off, while those that actually caused damage/physical harm on others should not. At least he has been able to give a solid opinion unlike the govt drunk who just didnt know what to say at all. Once again we see why the govt should be replaced, they are simply beyond their depth in this, they are there for personal gain only and care nothing for the people of the country, all they can do is try to manipulate everyone to their ways, they have taken bribery to new levels and are using their influence to try to damage the opposition using inuendo and accusations that are simply false. The sooner there is an election to rid this country of these goons the better.

A slight flaw in this post's argument (ignoring the rather dishonest ranting) is the challenge posed in the last sentence.All the evidence and polls suggest that if an election was held the government would be returned with a larger majority.

Not a flaw. Read it again. Stated another way is as soon as an election is held resulting in these goons being gotten rid of in this country the better. And I concure.

You altered the last sentence to give it a completely different meaning.However it doesn't matter - the opposition is in disarray and the govenment is more popular than ever.That doesn't mean the government won't be removed but it would be through the usual military coup or directed judiciary (or whatever other stratagem the unelected elites dream up).All governments eventually grow unpopular and become tired and are rejected by the electorate.That's normal and necessary in a democracy since it's unhealthy for one party to hold office permanently.But for the time being an electoral defeat of the current government is unfeasible.

I am confused happens a lot for me.

Can you explain to me if they are so popular and the opposition in such a state of disarray why can they not just say come home Thaksin all is forgiven. That is what they are seeking and yet they seem to be unable to do it. Could they maybe not be as popular as you would have us believe and the opposition not as scattered as you would have us believe.

Please unconfuse me.

We can see clearly here who should be the PM, this statement is that correct it isnt funny. Abhisit has really hit it on the nose with his comments, he has stated the obvious truth, those incited by the red leaders that didnt commit any physical pain/damage on anyone should be let off, while those that actually caused damage/physical harm on others should not. At least he has been able to give a solid opinion unlike the govt drunk who just didnt know what to say at all. Once again we see why the govt should be replaced, they are simply beyond their depth in this, they are there for personal gain only and care nothing for the people of the country, all they can do is try to manipulate everyone to their ways, they have taken bribery to new levels and are using their influence to try to damage the opposition using inuendo and accusations that are simply false. The sooner there is an election to rid this country of these goons the better.

A slight flaw in this post's argument (ignoring the rather dishonest ranting) is the challenge posed in the last sentence.All the evidence and polls suggest that if an election was held the government would be returned with a larger majority.

Not a flaw. Read it again. Stated another way is as soon as an election is held resulting in these goons being gotten rid of in this country the better. And I concure.

You altered the last sentence to give it a completely different meaning.However it doesn't matter - the opposition is in disarray and the govenment is more popular than ever.That doesn't mean the government won't be removed but it would be through the usual military coup or directed judiciary (or whatever other stratagem the unelected elites dream up).All governments eventually grow unpopular and become tired and are rejected by the electorate.That's normal and necessary in a democracy since it's unhealthy for one party to hold office permanently.But for the time being an electoral defeat of the current government is unfeasible.

We will agree to disagree. I altered it to explain to you how I understood the statement.

Abhisit want to clear out himself now !!!

We can see clearly here who should be the PM, this statement is that correct it isnt funny. Abhisit has really hit it on the nose with his comments, he has stated the obvious truth, those incited by the red leaders that didnt commit any physical pain/damage on anyone should be let off, while those that actually caused damage/physical harm on others should not. At least he has been able to give a solid opinion unlike the govt drunk who just didnt know what to say at all. Once again we see why the govt should be replaced, they are simply beyond their depth in this, they are there for personal gain only and care nothing for the people of the country, all they can do is try to manipulate everyone to their ways, they have taken bribery to new levels and are using their influence to try to damage the opposition using inuendo and accusations that are simply false. The sooner there is an election to rid this country of these goons the better.

A slight flaw in this post's argument (ignoring the rather dishonest ranting) is the challenge posed in the last sentence.All the evidence and polls suggest that if an election was held the government would be returned with a larger majority.

Not a flaw. Read it again. Stated another way is as soon as an election is held resulting in these goons being gotten rid of in this country the better. And I concure.

You altered the last sentence to give it a completely different meaning.However it doesn't matter - the opposition is in disarray and the govenment is more popular than ever.That doesn't mean the government won't be removed but it would be through the usual military coup or directed judiciary (or whatever other stratagem the unelected elites dream up).All governments eventually grow unpopular and become tired and are rejected by the electorate.That's normal and necessary in a democracy since it's unhealthy for one party to hold office permanently.But for the time being an electoral defeat of the current government is unfeasible.

unelected elites - that would have to include Thaksin then?

As for the support of the "red" side of things, I don't disagree that the "yellows" are not doing such a great job either, so I'm waiting for a new color to come onto the scene to change things around.

And I think that when it comes to elections, if one was held right this moment, the support for the current Govt is a lot less than you might think. I doubt whether they would get an uncontestable majority.

Amnesty . . . rather than trying to create a blanket amnesty for anyone/everyone, should it not be done on an individual case by case basis and the outcome delivered based on the merits of each specific individual?

Abhisit want to clear out himself now !!!

Sorry, do you mean former-PM Abhisit should clear out, or wishes to clear himself (from what conviction exactly ?), or should be even more clear about (very sensibly) asking who the several amnesty-proposals are supposed to absolve, or wishes to leave the country like former-PM Thaksin, or what ?

I guess he could always investigate the the most recent 'amnesty' and use this as a guidline....kind of wiped the slate clean for one side as I recall...

"one side"? It wiped the slate clean for a group. I wouldn't really call it "one side".

Do you think it would pass a referendum?

Not sure what amnesty you are talking about and I get a little bit edgy when I see secrecy.

I do understand the one group concept as compared to the one side concept. Like the present government several groups red shirt PT and other minor groups.

Out of them it would be no surprise for the red shirts to push for total amnesty for there part and the others can go fish. They are standing in there own way in there drive for what they call democracy.

Closed minds will not do the job for them.

The "group" geo is talking about is the coup generals who got amnesty via the 2006 interim constitution, and then in the 2007 constitution due to article 309. If they are one side, then all the politicians must be the other side.

I guess he could always investigate the the most recent 'amnesty' and use this as a guidline....kind of wiped the slate clean for one side as I recall...

"one side"? It wiped the slate clean for a group. I wouldn't really call it "one side".

Do you think it would pass a referendum?

Not sure what amnesty you are talking about and I get a little bit edgy when I see secrecy.

I do understand the one group concept as compared to the one side concept. Like the present government several groups red shirt PT and other minor groups.

Out of them it would be no surprise for the red shirts to push for total amnesty for there part and the others can go fish. They are standing in there own way in there drive for what they call democracy.

Closed minds will not do the job for them.

The "group" geo is talking about is the coup generals who got amnesty via the 2006 interim constitution, and then in the 2007 constitution due to article 309. If they are one side, then all the politicians must be the other side.

But isn't the coup leader now a member of the governing coalition? Which side has benefitted?

But isn't the coup leader now a member of the governing coalition? Which side has benefitted?

Interesting reading on what he has done (allegedly): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonthi_Boonyaratglin

I like the 2 wives part . . . and the quotes are hilarious lol

We can see clearly here who should be the PM, this statement is that correct it isnt funny. Abhisit has really hit it on the nose with his comments, he has stated the obvious truth, those incited by the red leaders that didnt commit any physical pain/damage on anyone should be let off, while those that actually caused damage/physical harm on others should not. At least he has been able to give a solid opinion unlike the govt drunk who just didnt know what to say at all. Once again we see why the govt should be replaced, they are simply beyond their depth in this, they are there for personal gain only and care nothing for the people of the country, all they can do is try to manipulate everyone to their ways, they have taken bribery to new levels and are using their influence to try to damage the opposition using inuendo and accusations that are simply false. The sooner there is an election to rid this country of these goons the better.

A slight flaw in this post's argument (ignoring the rather dishonest ranting) is the challenge posed in the last sentence.All the evidence and polls suggest that if an election was held the government would be returned with a larger majority.

Not a flaw. Read it again. Stated another way is as soon as an election is held resulting in these goons being gotten rid of in this country the better. And I concure.

You altered the last sentence to give it a completely different meaning.However it doesn't matter - the opposition is in disarray and the govenment is more popular than ever.That doesn't mean the government won't be removed but it would be through the usual military coup or directed judiciary (or whatever other stratagem the unelected elites dream up).All governments eventually grow unpopular and become tired and are rejected by the electorate.That's normal and necessary in a democracy since it's unhealthy for one party to hold office permanently.But for the time being an electoral defeat of the current government is unfeasible.

False argument. If any party is in disarray it is the PTP with the Nithirat group saying one thing, one red group saying another, the mainstream reds saying something else. Plus they can't even agree which way to amend or re-write the constitution.

Directed judiciary? What about the intimidated judiciary? Unfortunately you seem to have the same mis-understanding of the separation of the judicial branch under a democratic system, however imperfect it is here.

Finally which elites are you referring to? The nouveau riche elite, the Shin family elite, the monarchists or a term used to debase those who don't agree with you & the PTP?

False argument. If any party is in disarray it is the PTP with the Nithirat group saying one thing, one red group saying another, the mainstream reds saying something else. Plus they can't even agree which way to amend or re-write the constitution.

Directed judiciary? What about the intimidated judiciary? Unfortunately you seem to have the same mis-understanding of the separation of the judicial branch under a democratic system, however imperfect it is here.

Finally which elites are you referring to? The nouveau riche elite, the Shin family elite, the monarchists or a term used to debase those who don't agree with you & the PTP?

You are right.The Democrats are in splendid shape with a much admired leader known for his political acumen and common touch.

The Thai courts are known for their independence and freedom from political pressure.What could I have been thinking of.

Excellent point you make about Thaksin being unelected elite.And to think some of us were muddled enough to think that

those benefiting from the status quo resented the democratic power of the Thai electorate.

Well done for such an original and intelligent analysis

We can see clearly here who should be the PM, this statement is that correct it isnt funny. Abhisit has really hit it on the nose with his comments, he has stated the obvious truth, those incited by the red leaders that didnt commit any physical pain/damage on anyone should be let off, while those that actually caused damage/physical harm on others should not. At least he has been able to give a solid opinion unlike the govt drunk who just didnt know what to say at all. Once again we see why the govt should be replaced, they are simply beyond their depth in this, they are there for personal gain only and care nothing for the people of the country, all they can do is try to manipulate everyone to their ways, they have taken bribery to new levels and are using their influence to try to damage the opposition using inuendo and accusations that are simply false. The sooner there is an election to rid this country of these goons the better.

Old Abhisit may be grateful for an amnesty after his numerous court cases

Reading between the political lines here, Abhisit makes valid points where civil unrest (without violence) can be forgiven. He is doing a good job on reconciling without giving up on 'no amnesty' out of corruption related to criminal activities behind the civil unrest i.e. Thaksin. I feel the Reds would be appeased if some of their people were given amnesty based on verbiage inciting to riot, but none whatsoever on those who commit violence using protest as the excuse.

However, in their typical anti-reconciliation manner, the Red Shirts do not see any of these distinctions.

Instead, they are demanding that all their defendants be released immediately and all charges be dropped...

as well as being financially compensated by the government for the injustice perpetrated against them blah blah, etc. etc.

.

Ha yes, and 'injustice' against the Reds?

By precedent, I would guess the compensation required would be B500/day.

Edited January 31, 201313 yr by OzMick

Old Abhisit may be grateful for an amnesty after his numerous court cases

Do any of the amnesty plans include Abhisit? They've all got an "except Abhisit and Suthep" clause.

Besides that, Abhisit has said that he doesn't want amnesty.