"spirituality"

[sabaijai]

Since we're challenging things, how about this?

I believe the heart of Buddhism is beyond the understanding of the average Joe.....for instance everyone in my wife's "Buddhist" family.....without the sort of extraordinary efforts and time investment that in real life they simply don't make.

The Buddha obviously thought so too......so why waste people's time with something they ain't going to "get"?

They would be far better off following the straightforward highly wise but eminently graspable tenets of Stoicism which will have real meaning in their lives.

For instance

1. Decide whether things are within your sphere of influence or not. If not, don't give them another thought.

2. It is not events that matter but how one reacts to them.

3. (following 2) do not blame others for how you feel, like the boss "ruins my life because.....", "I can never be happy because of xxxxx....". You and you alone are responsible for how you react.

4. Virtue is all that matters.

These are very empowering maxims.

3 is counterintuitive but is very worthwhile getting one's head around. It becomes easier and easier to not be affected by others when you in fact trust the idea.

If some can also "get" Buddhism and the perennial philosophy that's a cherry on the cake, but the Roman's ran the best period in their history under the Five Good Emperors, and philosopher kings like Marcus Aurelius were what they were very much because of Stoic ideals. I wish present day rulers had half his character. Happily the better ones will keep his "Meditations" close to hand.

http://manybooks.net...t01medma10.html

Cheeryble

I'm not so sure the Thais - or anyone else - would practise the principles of Stoicism any more scrupulously.

It is easier to criticise someone else's practice than it is to follow the path ourselves.

Take tenet number 1, for instance.

[cheeryble]

I'm not so sure the Thais - or anyone else - would practise the principles of Stoicism any more scrupulously.

Quite possible.

The diffference is that at least the stuff is comprehensible by them or just about anyone.

It is easier to criticise someone else's practice than it is to follow the path ourselves.

I hope you don't think I'm criticising.....just giving an honest opinion.

[cheeryble]

Since we're truly in challenging mode may I get this off my chest?

The Four Noble Truths are at the heart of Buddhist practise.

The first truth explains Dukkha.

The rest are about getting rid of Dukkha.

Here we go:

I find Buddhist teaching as it is handed down completely unbalanced......even unhealthily unbalanced......in this area.

Whilst Dukkha......which I personally define as a niggling, sometimes subtle, not-quite-rightness.....may be extant in us all, and it may be valid to "realise one's dukkha", I say get things in proportion!

We can now look upon dukkha as not just some wisdom handed down from on high.....we can explain where it came from and put it in it's place.

What the folk back in the Buddha's day didn't know much about was how we came to be what we are.........about natural selection.

As every physical and mental factor in our make-up came from natural selection and conditioning (if we don't hold with a "soul" of course )....nature and nurture.....where did dukkha come from?

Well I envisage two chaps sitting outside their cave or shack in the stone age. They live a couple of miles apart, and are both positioned, for obvious reasons, above a little river or stream. The stream gives them water and when the time is right, fish.

I hope we all know what a variation is in the natural selective sense. It is a random change in a living being which, if useful to survival, get's passed on and proliferates.

So Man A doesn't yet have the variation which is the beginnings of dukkha.

He sits with a smile on his face, burps contentedly, and goes down to drink from the stream and occasionally catch a fish which is not so hard his father showed him how to do it with a wooden spear.

Man B, fortunately or unfortunately, has the variation of niggling uncertainty, of dukkha. His mind has started to check possible futures. Checking possible futures is very useful. It means we don't necessarily have to enter dangerous situations to learn from them.

In Man B's case he has a couple of concerns (yes, this is the genesis of concern.....it never existed before.)

He is concerned about if the stream dries up which it almost did several times in his life.

This would mean

1. No water

2. No fish

Well it's obvious isn't it? He makes a little reservoir and finds that with clay in the bottom it's waterproof enough to hold it's contents for a couple of months.

He also has noted that fish that dry out don't go bad, so he allays his worries about no fish by regularly sun drying fish....or smoking them.

The very next year the river dries up.

I'm trying to make a simple point here.

The man in whom the precursor to dukkha develops has an advantage and survives. He survives to pass down the variation.......to us.

One unfortunate thing.

Though dukkha may help us survive, it's not there to make us happy. It is in fact s somewhat disturbing thing....which is exactly what the Buddha said.

What the Buddha didn't say is that natural selection also ensured we have a nice balanced make-up so we don't go and slit our wrists at the first hint of unease.

No, it built in positivity. There's even a Pali word for it.....sukkha.

Not only is there sukkha, but QED (because we do survive) it outweighs the negative effects of dukkha.

So understanding this balance in our make-up is the healthy way to look upon things.

The healthy overview would be: life is not in any way dominated by dukkha. It is just a useful, somewhat annoying, tool.

Always remember that there is a dukkha-free world just behind the gossamer curtain.

We can live happy healthy lives if we just realise we are formed by nature to bear downswings and generally speaking we exist pretty damned positively.

Be aware of dukkha, but don't pay it too much attention....because what you spend your mind-time on grows.

Tell the Buddha where to stick it.

Accentuate the positive!

_____________________________

ps: yes, you got it.

Man A got thirsty and went and nagged Man B until he shared the water and fish.

Thus began another variation which also seems to have proliferated, especially in an ex-girlfriend of mine.

Man A and Man B said dam_n convention! They got married and lived happily ever after.....but in their particular case the dukkha gene didn't get passed on.

Edited February 15, 2013 by cheeryble

[rockyysdt]

Interesting C.

Interestingly this is significant.

Dukkha and how to get rid of it.

Although Dukkha might be described as "niggling, sometimes subtle, not-quite-rightness", it has the power to control our lives and leave them filled with deep unhappiness.

The overiding significance is that Dukkha is physical (not metaphysical).

Was the point of the Buddhas teaching:

"Wake up from ones conditioned state (brahmanism/customs/programmed response) and begin to live in the present, free from Dukkha".

or

"Awaken into a metaphysical state".

Did someone make Buddhism more than what the Buddha actually taught?

After all, to be free from the "belief" of an all pervasive religion such as Brahman, in which every facet of life was controlled from birth until death, with rebellion met with death, would be quite a life changing experience.

If you're saying that freedom from Dukkha may now be out of perspective, perhaps 2,500 years ago it was a revelation.

Having said that, I wouldn't underestimate Dukkha today.

Living with delusion, aversion, and greed not only cripples each of us, it has a strangle hold on our world.

Since we're truly in challenging mode may I get this off my chest?

The Four Noble Truths are at the heart of Buddhist practise.

The first truth explains Dukkha.

The rest are about getting rid of Dukkha.

Here we go:

I find Buddhist teaching as it is handed down completely unbalanced......even unhealthily unbalanced......in this area.

Whilst Dukkha......which I personally define as a niggling, sometimes subtle, not-quite-rightness.....may be extant in us all, and it may be valid to "realise one's dukkha", I say get things in proportion!

We can now look upon dukkha as not just some wisdom handed down from on high.....we can explain where it came from and put it in it's place.

What the folk back in the Buddha's day didn't know much about was how we came to be what we are.........about natural selection.

As every physical and mental factor in our make-up came from natural selection and conditioning (if we don't hold with a "soul" of course )....nature and nurture.....where did dukkha come from?

Well I envisage two chaps sitting outside their cave or shack in the stone age. They live a couple of miles apart, and are both positioned, for obvious reasons, above a little river or stream. The stream gives them water and when the time is right, fish.

I hope we all know what a variation is in the natural selective sense. It is a random change in a living being which, if useful to survival, get's passed on and proliferates.

So Man A doesn't yet have the variation which is the beginnings of dukkha.

He sits with a smile on his face, burps contentedly, and goes down to drink from the stream and occasionally catch a fish which is not so hard his father showed him how to do it with a wooden spear.

Man B, fortunately or unfortunately, has the variation of niggling uncertainty, of dukkha. His mind has started to check possible futures. Checking possible futures is very useful. It means we don't necessarily have to enter dangerous situations to learn from them.

In Man B's case he has a couple of concerns (yes, this is the genesis of concern.....it never existed before.)

He is concerned about if the stream dries up which it almost did several times in his life.

This would mean

1. No water

2. No fish

Well it's obvious isn't it? He makes a little reservoir and finds that with clay in the bottom it's waterproof enough to hold it's contents for a couple of months.

He also has noted that fish that dry out don't go bad, so he allays his worries about no fish by regularly sun drying fish....or smoking them.

The very next year the river dries up.

I'm trying to make a simple point here.

The man in whom the precursor to dukkha develops has an advantage and survives. He survives to pass down the variation.......to us.

One unfortunate thing.

Though dukkha may help us survive, it's not there to make us happy. It is in fact s somewhat disturbing thing....which is exactly what the Buddha said.

What the Buddha didn't say is that natural selection also ensured we have a nice balanced make-up so we don't go and slit our wrists at the first hint of unease.

No, it built in positivity. There's even a Pali word for it.....sukkha.

Not only is there sukkha, but QED (because we do survive) it outweighs the negative effects of dukkha.

So understanding this balance in our make-up is the healthy way to look upon things.

The healthy overview would be: life is not in any way dominated by dukkha. It is just a useful, somewhat annoying, tool.

Always remember that there is a dukkha-free world just behind the gossamer curtain.

We can live happy healthy lives if we just realise we are formed by nature to bear downswings and generally speaking we exist pretty damned positively.

Be aware of dukkha, but don't pay it too much attention....because what you spend your mind-time on grows.

Tell the Buddha where to stick it.

Accentuate the positive!

_____________________________

ps: yes, you got it.

Man A got thirsty and went and nagged Man B until he shared the water and fish.

Thus began another variation which also seems to have proliferated, especially in an ex-girlfriend of mine.

Man A and Man B said dam_n convention! They got married and lived happily ever after.....but in their particular case the dukkha gene didn't get passed on.

Edited February 15, 2013 by rockyysdt

[Several]

To say a thing cannot be found is not the same as saying it does not exist. For me spirituality is in everything, mundane and metaphysical. I would go so far as to say it is light and the physical is the shadow cast. It is easy to rely on bland rationalisations on the nature of things, create compelling arguments that sound good but give no true understanding or insight. To apprehend the nature of things directly without interference from emotion or idea is why I practice. Suffering obscures the view, it is as useless as fear. Why overcome it if there is not something beyond? I strive for liberation not anihilation. So what is it that I will someday realise is already free? Unborn, unconditioned, uncreated. All oceans in a dewdrop, waveless.

[cheeryble]

Why overcome it if there is not something beyond?

This sounds a little like the Christian arguments I have often read about what's the point if this is as good as it gets.

I strive for liberation not anihilation.

There is no nihilism with no separate identity. Just ask Nagarjuna.

So what is it that I will someday realise is already free? Unborn, unconditioned, uncreated.

You (relative you, there is no absolute you) will simply see things differently if you remove the conceptual barriers between yourself and not-yourself.

cheers, Cheeryble

Edited February 16, 2013 by cheeryble

[Xangsamhua]

There is no nihilism with no separate identity. Just ask Nagarjuna.

I asked Nagarjuna a few years ago, and am not sure if I remember his answer correctly. I should go back and ask him again, but there is so much to do.

What saith Cheeryble? If there's no nihilism with no separate identity, if all is one in a unified field, is there holism? No separate identity. No ego. Just conscious being. A bit hard to fathom, but maybe that's the way things are. Tathagata ... "suchness".

[Sheryl]

I think the idea is that these things cannot be grasped by our intellect, any idea we come up with will be wrong since it will be limited by the limitations of our minds as they now are.

Hence the emphasis on practice, to develop the facility you do not currently have to understand/know.

[cheeryble]

Very much so Sheryl.....

IMO we need to be careful though because unless we want to radically change everything about our lives we are in fact living in the everyday, relative, world to which we will tend to revert. In this world we cannot communicate with ourselves or others without conceptualisation, and again, we can't be having this nice discussion.

So for me it's important not to dam_n all conceptualisation but to realise it's limits.

For me it's highly useful to understand how the mind is so subject to illusion, and how deeply insidious and persuasive illusion can be. It's why the Diamond Sutra is there for us. If we can understand the depths and breadths of illusion we can limit it's effects on us. Profound effects such as a deeply entrenched sense of self, which may have helped us think we are worth looking after at all costs so we survive to this generation.......but which coincidentally bring profound negatives such as fear of loss and of death.

Part of a useful practise would be to starting to recognise illusion and reality when one sees them, and this is where a little practise can be useful. When one starts trying to whittle down the world to direct experience (paramattha dhamma) only, perhaps on the meditation mat, one is starting to experience something which is uncorrupted by illusion and may be worth calling reality.......the part of our universe which can be relied upon. With that improved understanding about reality we gain a greater ability to recognize the illusion. We may also start to examine things other than self which we so automatically assume as part of the scheme of things such as free will, time, you name it.

The funny thing is these mental factors such as assumption of self and free will are so very deeply engrained people will actually feel assaulted and can become positively angry when you point out even the possibility they are mere constructions.

Funny really!

Edited February 17, 2013 by cheeryble

[Several]

Why overcome it if there is not something beyond?

This sounds a little like the Christian arguments I have often read about what's the point if this is as good as it gets.

I strive for liberation not anihilation.

There is no nihilism with no separate identity. Just ask Nagarjuna.

So what is it that I will someday realise is already free? Unborn, unconditioned, uncreated.

You (relative you, there is no absolute you) will simply see things differently if you remove the conceptual barriers between yourself and not-yourself.

cheers, Cheeryble

Saying there is no 'absolute you' is taking an absolute position. It is a seemingly logical deduction. But thats just an idea. If you are only going from seeing things one way to another then one has fallen into an identical trap. And these are not only conceptual snares but emotional and kammic too.

Heh. Christian. Their rewards are after-life not in re-birth. If there is nothing more to existence... Sorry. Gotta help move some sacks apparently. More later.

[cheeryble]

Saying there is no 'absolute you' is taking an absolute position. It is a seemingly logical deduction. But thats just an idea. If you are only going from seeing things one way to another then one has fallen into an identical trap.

.

Absolutely right! Ain't it potty?

[Several]

Paradoxically enigmatic. Like a guy who's avatar quotes Ezekiel saying a Buddhist monk sounds christian. Its a mad world my friend. Pax.

[Sheryl]

Heh. Christian. Their rewards are after-life not in re-birth.

Rebirth is hardly a reward ....

[rockyysdt]

To say a thing cannot be found is not the same as saying it does not exist. For me spirituality is in everything, mundane and metaphysical. I would go so far as to say it is light and the physical is the shadow cast. It is easy to rely on bland rationalisations on the nature of things, create compelling arguments that sound good but give no true understanding or insight. To apprehend the nature of things directly without interference from emotion or idea is why I practice. Suffering obscures the view, it is as useless as fear. Why overcome it if there is not something beyond? I strive for liberation not anihilation. So what is it that I will someday realise is already free? Unborn, unconditioned, uncreated. All oceans in a dewdrop, waveless.

Hi Sev.

I, like you, would like to live on in a place/state beyond this world.

For me though, there is no longer any point in dwelling "as if it might be so", nor "as if it might not be".

I felt that if I live with the belief that it might be so, then this has the ability to make me a dreamer and to inflate my ego.

I felt that practice motivated in order to secure immortality (one definition of Enlightenment) is selfish as I'm doing it for personal gain.

I felt that to give charitably and to help others for personal gain/welfare is being insincere as it implies that I would not if there were no personal gain.

I'm attracted to the eightfold path in order to remove unecessary suffering.

(On a simple level, pre-empting outcomes has led to associated feelings of pain/anguish only to learn later it was all in the mind).

I'm attracted to Karuna/Metta because I care about the suffering of others.

I would care for others/give if there is a metaphysical reward or equally if there no metaphysical reward.

Practicing the eightfold path allows us to live increasingly in the present free from delusion, aversion, & greed.

Isn't this a powerful reward?

Can belief in something metaphysical accelerate its arrival (if it exists) or hinder it?

Should one be extremely careful of attachment (strong belief) in things metaphysical (an attachment which may be far from the truth)?

Can such a belief incorrectly shape ones path?

The Metaphysical, fact or fantasy?

Edited February 17, 2013 by rockyysdt

[Several]

Heh. Christian. Their rewards are after-life not in re-birth.

Rebirth is hardly a reward ....

'in rebirth' not rebirth itself. If there were no rebirth then there is no change, no opportunity to go beyond it.

[Several]

To say a thing cannot be found is not the same as saying it does not exist. For me spirituality is in everything, mundane and metaphysical. I would go so far as to say it is light and the physical is the shadow cast. It is easy to rely on bland rationalisations on the nature of things, create compelling arguments that sound good but give no true understanding or insight. To apprehend the nature of things directly without interference from emotion or idea is why I practice. Suffering obscures the view, it is as useless as fear. Why overcome it if there is not something beyond? I strive for liberation not anihilation. So what is it that I will someday realise is already free? Unborn, unconditioned, uncreated. All oceans in a dewdrop, waveless.

Hi Sev.

I, like you, would like to live on in a place/state beyond this world.

For me though, there is no longer any point in dwelling "as if it might be so", nor "as if it might not be".

I felt that if I live with the belief that it might be so, then this has the ability to make me a dreamer and to inflate my ego.

I felt that practice motivated in order to secure immortality (one definition of Enlightenment) is selfish as I'm doing it for personal gain.

I felt that to give charitably and to help others for personal gain/welfare is being insincere as it implies that I would not if there were no personal gain.

I'm attracted to the eightfold path in order to remove unecessary suffering.

(On a simple level, pre-empting outcomes has led to associated feelings of pain/anguish only to learn later it was all in the mind).

I'm attracted to Karuna/Metta because I care about the suffering of others.

I would care for others/give if there is a metaphysical reward or equally if there no metaphysical reward.

Practicing the eightfold path allows us to live increasingly in the present free from delusion, aversion, & greed.

Isn't this a powerful reward?

Can belief in something metaphysical accelerate its arrival (if it exists) or hinder it?

Should one be extremely careful of attachment (strong belief) in things metaphysical (an attachment which may be far from the truth)?

Can such a belief incorrectly shape ones path?

The Metaphysical, fact or fantasy?

Hey brother. Personally I am unconvinced that physical and metaphysical are seperate, preferring known/unknown/unknowable. Not seeking somewhere else, but to go beyond right here without moving. To practice sila is the preferred mode of action as it avoids attachment and leaves conscience clear. Magical powers and such are hindrances only as much as any other clinging. If I deny the wisdom eye shouldn't I also stare at the sun until all goes dark? Suffering is a stone in my shoe that could prevent me completing the journey. I see that which is called metaphysical as no different to what is called physical, and that termed spiritual is beyond these phenomena, and ever present too.

[rockyysdt]

Hey brother. Personally I am unconvinced that physical and metaphysical are seperate, preferring known/unknown/unknowable. Not seeking somewhere else, but to go beyond right here without moving. To practice sila is the preferred mode of action as it avoids attachment and leaves conscience clear. Magical powers and such are hindrances only as much as any other clinging. If I deny the wisdom eye shouldn't I also stare at the sun until all goes dark? Suffering is a stone in my shoe that could prevent me completing the journey. I see that which is called metaphysical as no different to what is called physical, and that termed spiritual is beyond these phenomena, and ever present too.

Well written Sev and something I subscribe to.

I'd only reword the last part: and that termed spiritual may or maybe beyond these phenomena, and may or maybe ever present too..

A common theme cropping up with my interactions and observations with others is "belief".

I've been contemplating belief.

Three aspects, firstly, how deeply belief controls our thoughts, how it may or may not have any bearing on reality, and how it's acquired.

Belief, so powerful, it not only controls us but shapes the way we perceive.

Edited February 19, 2013 by rockyysdt

[sabaijai]

Further observations comparing Buddhism with Stoicism and Epicureanism.

http://www.science20.com/rationally_speaking/buddhism_epicureanism_and_stoicism-103952

Cheers to cheeryble, interesting stuff,

[His Masters Voice]

"Make a gift of your life and lift all mankind by being kind, considerate, forgiving, and compassionate at all times, in all places, and under all conditions, with everyone as well as yourself. This is the greatest gift anyone can give."

[Several]

Hey brother. Personally I am unconvinced that physical and metaphysical are seperate, preferring known/unknown/unknowable. Not seeking somewhere else, but to go beyond right here without moving. To practice sila is the preferred mode of action as it avoids attachment and leaves conscience clear. Magical powers and such are hindrances only as much as any other clinging. If I deny the wisdom eye shouldn't I also stare at the sun until all goes dark? Suffering is a stone in my shoe that could prevent me completing the journey. I see that which is called metaphysical as no different to what is called physical, and that termed spiritual is beyond these phenomena, and ever present too.

Well written Sev and something I subscribe to.

I'd only reword the last part: and that termed spiritual may or maybe beyond these phenomena, and may or maybe ever present too..

A common theme cropping up with my interactions and observations with others is "belief".

I've been contemplating belief.

Three aspects, firstly, how deeply belief controls our thoughts, how it may or may not have any bearing on reality, and how it's acquired.

Belief, so powerful, it not only controls us but shapes the way we perceive.

Belief is a double edged blade. It can lead down fruitless paths, or it can lead to triumph. Our subconscious mind will try to fulfill the dictates of our belief. For nibbana can not be described or concieved of so I am left with faith in the noble 4 truths that it is the way and the aim. Nearly every thought is based on belief, even those immutable things we thought were written in stone. You could say that nibbana is knowing and all other states are belief. So if I cannot avoid it then I shape it to my purpose, my subconscious obeys and assists in the effort. Without a target there is no aim and practice will not be as fruitful. The subconscious is not driving towards any particular destination and meanders about wherever fancy dictates. Distracting thoughts, useless cravings, itches tics and aches plague the practitioner. If, perchance, a madman burst into the meditation hall and rushed headlong at the meditator wielding a sword all distractions vanish. The purpose is clear and simple, avoid harm. He must believe it possible without question. Ridiculous? We are all going to die, madman or not, but we choose to live and practice as if there will always be tomorrow. And one day will be the last and the unspent potential of our kamma dictates some other being must go through all this again.

To quote a Zen master, who's name I forget...

The bow is broken.

The arrows are all gone.

This critical moment,

No fainting heart cherish.

Shoot without delay.

[Xangsamhua]

To quote a Zen master, who's name I forget...

The bow is broken.

The arrows are all gone.

This critical moment,

No fainting heart cherish.

Shoot without delay.

Bukkoku Kokushi 1256-1316

Thanks for this.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Xangsamhua

[Xangsamhua]

Cheers to cheeryble, interesting stuff,

Yes. Many thanks, Cheeryble. Following what you wrote I read the Diamond Sutra, but decided I needed help, so have put Thich Nhat Hanh's The Diamond That Cuts Through Illusion on my Kindle.

But I've been given much food for thought in others' post also, and have been directed to the Rig Veda by Rocky, to Bukkoku Kokushi by Several, and to David R. Hawkins by HMV, so a rich trove to explore and discover.

This forum is a great source of knowledge, ideas and understandings. Moderators, please know that for me it is a sangha.

[rockyysdt]

Belief is a double edged blade. It can lead down fruitless paths, or it can lead to triumph. Our subconscious mind will try to fulfill the dictates of our belief. For nibbana can not be described or concieved of so I am left with faith in the noble 4 truths that it is the way and the aim. Nearly every thought is based on belief, even those immutable things we thought were written in stone. You could say that nibbana is knowing and all other states are belief. So if I cannot avoid it then I shape it to my purpose, my subconscious obeys and assists in the effort. Without a target there is no aim and practice will not be as fruitful. The subconscious is not driving towards any particular destination and meanders about wherever fancy dictates. Distracting thoughts, useless cravings, itches tics and aches plague the practitioner. If, perchance, a madman burst into the meditation hall and rushed headlong at the meditator wielding a sword all distractions vanish. The purpose is clear and simple, avoid harm. He must believe it possible without question. Ridiculous? We are all going to die, madman or not, but we choose to live and practice as if there will always be tomorrow. And one day will be the last and the unspent potential of our kamma dictates some other being must go through all this again.

To quote a Zen master, who's name I forget...

The bow is broken.

The arrows are all gone.

This critical moment,

No fainting heart cherish.

Shoot without delay.

You know me S.

I can't resist a good discussion.

We do have to have some faith, however if you were to anaylze the 4 Noble Truths, Dhukka, and practice which leads to its cessation appears quite non metaphysical, and within the scope of travellors to explore and test.

Rather than travelling with an open investigative mind, if one begins with a strong belief in the metaphysical, taking such thoughts into deep meditation during long regular sits, has the ability to reinforce such belief (attachment). Belief can form our direction/outcome.

Letting go of such attachments is the only way to investigate.

Awareness (ever deepening) allows us to see what is, rather than begin with fixed eyes.

Buddhadasa Bhikkhu said: The "doer", the "meditator", the "knower" is the mind, and not a self, , a me, or a "person".

The cessation of Dhukkha is Nibbana.

Singleness of mind (viveka), fading away (viraga), cessation (nirodha) and dropping away (vossaga) are synonyms of Nibbana.

Edited February 20, 2013 by rockyysdt

[Several]

Oh yes. I believe the metaphysical also cuts both ways, and is not a desireable aim in itself. I do not hold with fortune telling or distrubuting amulets and tattoos of dubious power. If I were to subscibe to this I would simply learn cold reading and prestidigitation and fleece the unknowing. Hey presto, your cash has vanished! Please tell your friends. Ahem. But I know for a fact that inexplicable things happen all the time and the cosmos is not encompassed by simple rationality. If it were explainable as a material manifestation expending x amount of energy at y rate unitl it just ceases, then it would be no more interesting to me than a wind-up drumming monkey. However, I also know for a fact the arctic is bloody cold and I have absolutely no desire to verify that for myself.

[Several]

Just a thought, but when Buddhadassa says 'the mind', what does he mean? A mind, singular but without self. Or 'the' mind, each individual being an aspect of? A collective unconscious or bhavanga-sota?

[rockyysdt]

Just a thought, but when Buddhadassa says 'the mind', what does he mean? A mind, singular but without self. Or 'the' mind, each individual being an aspect of? A collective unconscious or bhavanga-sota?

He means the "Mind" is a Skhandha.

One of a number of aggregates which constitue a human being.

Suffering can only be extinguished when we no longer cling to a skhandha.

Imagining a soul/spirit is the most powerful level of attachment one can create in the Mind.

An attachment which will reinforce the illusion of "l", "me", "self".

One who is attached to a Skhandha can never be free of suffering.

One who dwells in the existence of soul is potentially locking in their attachment.

We need to remember that the Buddha lived during a time when every facet of peoples lives, including the metaphysical, was mapped out and those who rebelled, either fled to the forest or were put to death.

The Buddha carefully crafted his Dharma in such a way that it represented what the reader wanted it to represent.

When one speaks tongue in cheek, one can appear to agree, whilst ridiculing, and at the same time blend the truth in to the way of thinking at the time.

When the Buddha spoke of Devas, as high as they were, they remained in Samsara.

He could be confirming the existence of relms and re birth, or

He could be ridiculing Devas, demoting them to a level below himself and below awakening.

Mind:

We are what we think.

All that we are arises with our thoughts.

With our thoughts we make the world.

Know yourself.

That in yourself a gem is found.

Why look without? All is in vain.

Within a lotus blossoming!

Within the lotus - best of gem.

That which a man should find and know:

"Enlightenment or Knowledge here

All comes from knowing in yourself.

It appears to be all about the five khandha's (skhandha's) which bring about attachment.

The body.

Feeling.

Perception.

Clinging.

Consciousness.

Ignorant attachment to these gives rise to becoming (bhava) which gives rise to or birth of "self".

This is repeated at a very rapid rate (many instances of "self") which is referred as "re birth" (one instance of birth to the next).

We can have ignorant contact which gives rise to attachment and grasping of many things which brings about the mental formation "l", "me", "self".

This is an ignorant concept.

If there is no "l", "me", "self", why should there be a soul which is even a greater attachment.

Becoming gives rise to "birth (jati)",

The "l", "me", "self" speaks with attachment then thinks, acts and speaks in ignorant ways.

Mindfulness and Wisdom can catch the moment of contact leading to wise contact.

Wise feeling, wise want, stops the re birth of ignorance, becoming and attachment.

Thus the cycle of re birth is stopped and attachment to I, me, self, is no more.

One then lives free from aversion, delusion, & greed as an awakened one.

In Anapanasiti, the Mind is described as having many states.

The aim is to liberate the mind by making it free and detached.

Contemplating all the mind states reveals that they are impermanent.

This is what the Buddha taught.

He also laid out the steps (8 fold path) to acheive it.

One should beware of belief as it is a mind state which is impermant and has the power to anchor one in delusion, "self", and samsara.

Not to mention Dhukkha.

Beware of the offer of "immortality".

The mind (self) thrives on this.

Edited February 20, 2013 by rockyysdt

[Sheryl]

The mind is itself an aggregate of:

vinyana (consciousness)

sunya (evaluation or recognizing)

vedana (feeling, sensation)

sankhara (reaction)

These 4 combined produce the impermanent, conditioned compound thing we call "mind", In meditation one can discern these separate components of mind and how they each operate. (And of course meditation seeks to strengthen the function of pure vinyana)

These 4 put together = nama and then add the body (rupa) = nama-rupa, the 5 aggregates that make up what we perceive as self

[Several]

Oh, I have absolutely no doubt the soul does not exist, no immortal me. I came to this realisation independantly years ago, and it was horrifying. I could not even look friends and family in the eye without the phantom of their unknowing annihilation looming over every little interaction. Its one of my main reasons for turning to Buddhism.

As for the Buddha being tongue in cheek about everything, its a theory. It could be true about some things he said, but not all. It would have to be true about whoever wrote down his words too. 84000 chapters of lighthearted observations. I think not.

The aggregate question. Does it apply to humans only? Where does this stuff accumulate? I am not saying it is not so, only that there are unanswered aspects of it. It is simmilar to the quantum effect of the observer on an interaction. Particles are in indeterminate states until perceived. But the unspoken assumption is always that it is human perception that makes the difference.

[Sheryl]

To my understanding (and observation) it applies to all sentient beings, at least all that have a physical form.

Observing animals it is easy to see that they too have these 4 skandhas of mind and of course a rupa.

The difference is I think a qualitative rather than absolute one. Animals seem to lack the capacity for self-observation that humans have, or at least most animals do, or else they have it in a very limited form. Which I assume is a function of vinyana. Human vinyana is far more developed than that of beings in lower realms.

[Several]

Agreed. I might also push it and claim that flora also has a kind of rudimentary mind. Because it would seem that life exists before mind from this aggregate description. If one follows a logical progression. So what is a peta? The life is gone but some vestage of mind remains? This would suggest that mind is not localised in the body and can operate independantly. Where does this mind really exist? Spooky stuff.