F1 2013

[Guest]

Psychologically interesting race.

Hamilton's pit stop mistake was hilarious. At that time there was probably quite a few confused people at the grid. If only McLaren would have gotten better results from the race, they might have been able to make a few good jokes out of the incident 'Missing us so much Lewis? You are always welcome to have a drink after the race.'

'The team will protect Sebastian as usual' (or similar) - Weber on the podium interview. This whole thing will require a lot of work from Honer to get the team feeling back to good again.

Personally I think they should have been able to race to the end. I would enjoy if there would be more racing and less long term strategy towards to the world championships. RBR dropped down the engine powers to save the engine for later parts of the season.

Hamilton and Rosberg team order was quite unfair to Rosberg. Hamilton had used a lot of gasoline so he had to slow down to get the car to the end. Rosberg had driven 'smartly' during the race and still had more resources at the end, which he should have been let to use to get the podium.

Somehow it would be nice to see if the teams would have 2 separate racers on the track. These would have independent strategies and would be allowed to race each other. Maybe they would not push each other from the track, but would still compete to the end.

[Mosha]

Well unfortunately the FIA decided team orders are OK. Remember the "Alonso is quicker than you." Message to Massa? My evil mind kicked in over Lewis. Wouldn't it have been funny if he had stopped completely and the team set to work, then went for a tea break after the wheels were off.

[Mosha]

Mark's gone surfing, they can call him when they have something to tell him. His team mate said he didn't know he'd done something wrong until he got back to the pits. Says he is sorry. H'mm, sorry means not doing it again, but it's not the 1st time these two have clashed. Vettel was dumped in the kitty litter trying to pass Webber a few seasons
back.

[wackysleet]

Mosha.

The most exciting bit of the race {I USE THAT TERM LOOSELY} was the little tussle between Mark and Seb, thats what racing should be like.

The procession of Lewis and Nico was an insult to spectators and the teams should apologise to the paying public, without which the sponsors would not bother to advertise their wares.

David.

[F430murci]

Sad to say that F1 is no longer racing.

[Mosha]

I don't blame the teams Dave, I blame the FIA. The only way they'll stop this crap is to have 1 car per team. The teams would hate that though. F1 is more a business than a sport. Bernie is enough proof of that.

[Mosha]

What is the poison Dwarf doing?

http://sport.uk.msn.com/f1/ecclestone-reveals-hamilton-talks

[Guest]

I'm sorry but I just had to share this.. Weber when not happy and letting people to see it. I guess this was 2010.

http://us2.na.apcdn.com/full/98688.gif

[Deserted]

Can someone explain what all the fuss is about Vettel overtaking Webber? Surely as triple world champion he is entitled to defend his crown. If there's one person in F1 who should be given certain privileges, its got to be him?

[wackysleet]

Teams are spoiling the sport with orders and it was apparent from Mark getting his knickers in a twist that even being slower he thought he should be given the right to win and people talk about Fernando getting annoyed, he is nothing compared to Mark who has shown numerous incidents where he has lost his cool, including the link on post 98.

I know he complained about having a new front wing given to Seb when it was apparently earmarked for him well it's obvious that the team thought Seb could get more out of it.

Let's face it Mr. Webber has been with Red Bull for what? 7 yrs and nothing to show for it whereas Seb has been with them for 5 years? and 3 WDCs so on past history it seems a mystery why he was told to hang back. Good for him for doing what he did.

David.

[Deserted]

Yes, look at when Prost and Senna fought and how much it destroyed the sport, it seems like F1 will never learn. Just seems like Vettel should be able to defend his title, since he earned it.

[Mosha]

We may not like team orders, but they are part of the sport. He disobeyed them, therefore he was in the wrong.

[wackysleet]

Mosha.

Your right, they have become part of the sport but at the cost of true racing so instead of the teams doing what they want why not do what the paying customers want and listen to who ultimately pays all the bills in F1 one way or another. No customers{us} no sponsors =no F1, I will refrain from calling it either a race or a sport but is fast becoming just a travesty of what it once was.

Let's go back a few years when there was no team orders and drivers actually raced each other then due to interference from the FIA we had several years of processional so called racing so after realising customers {us} were getting bored they introduce Pirelli tyres and all of a sudden we get closer racing but to what end if team orders are being used to determine driver positions.

Red Bulls comments about turning down Marks car because of tyre wear does not hold water, if indeed it was turned down but it was obvious that Seb had enough meat on his tyres to go faster, therefore if Mark had to nurse his car through a strategy cockup then let Seb go past.

I am so so glad I cancelled my flight to watch that charade.

[b19bry]

Psychologically interesting race.

Hamilton's pit stop mistake was hilarious.

Best bit of the race

[b19bry]

'The team will protect Sebastian as usual' (or similar) - Weber on the podium interview. This whole thing will require a lot of work from Honer to get the team feeling back to good again.

There will be no work in repairing of the situation,.Vettel and Webber are officially at war and neither will help each other till season's end, at which point Webber will move on from the team.

Horner will do nothing except Marko & Vettel's bidding, he doesn't have the balls or wherewithal to stand up to either.

[Mosha]

The only team order should be "Do not take out your team mate".

[wackysleet]

Mosha.

Wasn't it at Brazil last season that Mark nearly put Seb into the wall and then publicly stated that Fernando deserved to win the WDC so it's hardly surprising that they don't get on.

David.

[kartman]

Red Bull's even bigger problem than Vettel is Adrian Newey if he get really pissed off enough to leave the team .

[Mosha]

Mosha.

Wasn't it at Brazil last season that Mark nearly put Seb into the wall and then publicly stated that Fernando deserved to win the WDC so it's hardly surprising that they don't get on.

David.

I didn't see Brazil. I hate watching sport when I know the result, and America doesn't work for my sleep pattern. I do remember a previous season when Seb got aggressive and Mark would not give way. Seb lost out and indicated Mark was nuts. It was a stupid place to try pass as IIRC the commentators mentioned.

That last race there was no exuberance from Seb on the slow down lap. I reckon he lied when he said he realised he had done something wrong when he got back to the pits. He already knew well before then

Edited March 26, 2013 by Mosha

[wackysleet]

Mosha.

Perhaps the bad feelings started at the Japanese race at Fuji in 2008 when Seb was driving for Torro Rosso and was running 3rd behind Mark who was behind Lewis when the safety car came out and Seb ran into the back of Mark who later made unpleasant remarks to a female ITV reporter commenting about inexperienced kids who <deleted>-k up his race but also blamed Lewis for driving like sh-t behind the safety car, Seb was penalised 10 places on the grid for the next race until a video of the incident appeared on You Tube basically clearing Seb and putting a portion of the blame onto Lewis and rescinding the 10 place penalty.

David.

[b19bry]

Mosha.

Wasn't it at Brazil last season that Mark nearly put Seb into the wall and then publicly stated that Fernando deserved to win the WDC so it's hardly surprising that they don't get on.

David.

I didn't see Brazil. I hate watching sport when I know the result, and America doesn't work for my sleep pattern. I do remember a previous season when Seb got aggressive and Mark would not give way. Seb lost out and indicated Mark was nuts. It was a stupid place to try pass as IIRC the commentators mentioned.

That last race there was no exuberance from Seb on the slow down lap. I reckon he lied when he said he realised he had done something wrong when he got back to the pits. He already knew well before then

I watched the Brazil race but don't recall the incident that's being mentioned even by Horner now.

Steve's right though, the bad blood goes back much further than that to, I think, the 2010 Turkish race where it happened as described above.

There's no going back from Sunday's race, each driver will be out for themselves regardless of team orders

[wackysleet]

b19bry.

Bry read my post at 110 as the bad blood probably started before the Turkish 2010 race but in 2008.

David.

[b19bry]

The only team order should be "Do not take out your team mate".

Agreed, but essentially it's maybe the biggest reason why team orders are in place. It's nothing new either, it goes back over many decades (even when they were supposedly banned).

The worst case scenario for any sponsor (and team managers worst nightmare) is to see both his cars taken out through teammates scrapping unnecessarily.

However, I would not be surprised to see more of this from the Red Bull drivers later this season

[b19bry]

b19bry.

Bry read my post at 110 as the bad blood probably started before the Turkish 2010 race but in 2008.

David.

Don't recall that, but certainly not going to argue, Seb and Mark have not exactly been buddies as far back as I can remember

[rixalex]

Mosha.

Your right, they have become part of the sport but at the cost of true racing so instead of the teams doing what they want why not do what the paying customers want and listen to who ultimately pays all the bills in F1 one way or another. No customers{us} no sponsors =no F1, I will refrain from calling it either a race or a sport but is fast becoming just a travesty of what it once was.

Let's go back a few years when there was no team orders and drivers actually raced each other then due to interference from the FIA we had several years of processional so called racing so after realising customers {us} were getting bored they introduce Pirelli tyres and all of a sudden we get closer racing but to what end if team orders are being used to determine driver positions.

Red Bulls comments about turning down Marks car because of tyre wear does not hold water, if indeed it was turned down but it was obvious that Seb had enough meat on his tyres to go faster, therefore if Mark had to nurse his car through a strategy cockup then let Seb go past.

I am so so glad I cancelled my flight to watch that charade.

I have been arguing against team orders for years David, and i was angry when the FIA decided to drop the rule that disallowed it. I have felt somewhat alone on this issue though, with most people, at least on this forum anyway, seemingly feeling that it was part of the sport and they were ok with it. There was also an argument often made that because teams could be sneaky about how they did it, and make it difficult to prove, why bother trying to control it, why not just allow it? For me that argument is akin to saying that because simulation, otherwise known as diving, in the game of football, has been prevalent for a long time and is difficult to prove, let's just be done with it and allow it. Just because something is impossible to eradicate doesn't mean you shouldn't at least try to minimize it and stamp it out. I can't help wondering why some people only just seem to be finding their voices on this issue considering some of the ridiculous things that have been going on over the last year or so with this sort of practice.

Anyway, with regards the Webber / Vettel incident, i do have i think more sympathy for Mark than you. The two drivers both effectively agreed on an invisible finishing line at some pre-planned time before the end of the race. A gentleman's agreement more than a team order really, although i'm not saying the team had nothing to do with it. Perhaps their invisible finish line was determined by number of laps remaining or perhaps by final pit stops being completed. However they determined it, both drivers knew before they started the race, that if they wanted to finish ahead of their team mate, and to potentially win the race, they would have to be ahead of their team mate by the time they reached that invisible finish line. Vettel failed to do that, Webber succeeded.

Had Webber failed, i think he would have stuck to the agreement. Whether he would have stuck to it simply because he would of been slower than Vettel and unable to pass him anyway, or because he would of been more of a gentleman who stuck to his word, we'll never know, but that's somewhat besides the point. The point is that agreement they made could of benefited Vettel had he been the one in front, and had he been in front, i'm sure he would of demanded he received this benefit and been very angry had he not, just as Webber was. In effect Vettel's interpretation of their agreement seemed to be, if i am the one in front, we stick to the agreement, if i am the one behind, we throw it out the window. Does that sound fair or right to you?

I guess it could be the case that Vettel was opposed to making this agreement in the first place and had argued against it but the team forced him to accept it. If this was the case it would make Vettel's actions a little more understandable, but still wrong in my book.

Perhaps teams should consider adding a caveat to this sort of agreement between drivers. The agreement is designed to prevent closely matched team mates having a ding dong fight in the final laps of the race and end up with them both crashing out and the team getting zero points. But what about if they aren't closely matched? What about if one team mate is significantly faster than the other, as was the case with Hamilton and Rosberg. Rosberg could have passed Hamilton easily without really any chance of a collision. Why not include a caveat that if one person is say a second or more a lap faster than the other, he be allowed to make a move and get past. That would seem to make a bit more sense to me.

At the end of the day, i'd like for there to be no agreement whatsoever, and just let the drivers race like they are paid to do and as spectators pay to watch, but all the while FIA say that it's ok for this practice to go on, we'll have to endure the sort of contrived farce we witnessed at the weekend, and that we have been witnessing increasingly since they gave it the thumbs up.

[wackysleet]

Rix.

We don't actually know what if any agreement was made through the team or between the drivers, personally I don't believe knowing the history between Mark and Seb going back to Japan 2008 that either side would or could reach an agreement or even if one was mooted.

The team were running two strategies so obviously one was always going to be better than the other and as soon as it was apparent that Seb was faster he should have been allowed to pass, now I am not saying that Mark should be forced/ordered to concede the place to Seb but it was fairly obvious that Mark had not turned his engine down but was really conserving his tyres whereas Sebs tyres were relatively new and was obvious that he is a faster racer and contrary to popular belief, Seb can race with the best of them.

I think Mark was really angry that Seb came out on top of what for me was the only exciting bit of the race.

Now we come to Lewis and Nico, I have already stated that Lewis made a point of giving credit to Nico but in all honesty after the whole world and his dog heard Nico being told to hold station was a joke and if Lewis had made a point during his interview on the podium of how he tried but could not quite catch Red Bull would have lost him a lot of support.

I have always been against team orders but concede perhaps a driver allowing his team mate to pass providing the team mate is not in the lead at the time ie; Coulthard/Hakkinen at Maclaren and the team mate is on course to win the WDC and it's in the last race of the season perhaps could be justified but to me a race is just that, A RACE.

[rixalex]

Rix.

We don't actually know what if any agreement was made through the team or between the drivers, personally I don't believe knowing the history between Mark and Seb going back to Japan 2008 that either side would or could reach an agreement or even if one was mooted.

I puzzled that you think there was no agreement in place. In the Green Room straight after the race, Webber furiously asked Vettel something along the lines of "what the <deleted> happened to..." the dot dot dot being a code word and code number. What do you think the code word and number was a reference to, if not some sort of a pre-race agreement?

[rixalex]

Rix.

Now we come to Lewis and Nico, I have already stated that Lewis made a point of giving credit to Nico but in all honesty after the whole world and his dog heard Nico being told to hold station was a joke and if Lewis had made a point during his interview on the podium of how he tried but could not quite catch Red Bull would have lost him a lot of support.

Don't understand this paragraph. Can you explain again please.

[wackysleet]

Rix.

I think you may have misinterpreted my meaning, I simply meant we don't know if there was an agreement advocated by the team that Seb may or may not have readily agreed with, my doubts on the subject are that the drivers with their past history probably would not have made a personal agreement and it was a team decision and not a drivers decision and at the time in question Seb decided not to adhere to it and as I do not agree with position fixing then drivers should be allowed to race.

David.

[carmine]

Yes, look at when Prost and Senna fought and how much it destroyed the sport, it seems like F1 will never learn. Just seems like Vettel should be able to defend his title, since he earned it.

It was actually very good for viewing ratings but i take your point.

Mindyou at that time the biggest problem in F1 was the horrible individual Jean-Marie Balestre. Much of the problem between Senna and Prost was worsened by his blatent favouratism towards Prost.