F1 2013

[Ace of Pop]

Being a Purist i disslike Team Order. You Race to Win. Full Stop.

[rixalex]

What really dismays me about posters on here who purport to be fans have never complained about Lewis blatant disregard for team orders at Monaco during his race with his team mate Fernando and only obeyed instructions when Ron Dennis took over the radio and blasted him.

You have a more impressive memory than me if you can recall what posters on here were saying all those years back. I can't recall the incident, much less what was said on here about it.

Do i take it then that your position on what happened in Monaco is that Lewis was in the right?

[wackysleet]

I think on numerous occassions Seb has tried to race and probably against team orders and on occassions detrimental to team orders with serious consequences but remember this, it's all about maximum publicity getting the sponsors product in the public eye.

I'm surprised you avoided answering the question of why the team favoured letting Mark win while using two different strategies with Sebs strategy obviously better.

[wackysleet]

My stance on racing has never changed nor has my dislike of team orders. How can a team say they have no number 1 and drivers are equal when it was patently obvious that with Lewis v Nico Mercedes does, you have frequently commented on several posts that a number one should be decided by beating his team mate and I'm in total agreement with that view but still believe that drivers should be given equal machinery and opportunities and let them fight it out with the best rising to the surface.

Mark has consistently over the yrs made unnecessary vitriolic comments about Seb but has been proved time after time he is no match for Sebs ability and is a whinger of the first order as well as being as sick as a parrot having been in a top car for yrs and nothing to show for it.

[rixalex]

My stance on racing has never changed nor has my dislike of team orders. How can a team say they have no number 1 and drivers are equal when it was patently obvious that with Lewis v Nico Mercedes does, you have frequently commented on several posts that a number one should be decided by beating his team mate and I'm in total agreement with that view but still believe that drivers should be given equal machinery and opportunities and let them fight it out with the best rising to the surface.

Mark has consistently over the yrs made unnecessary vitriolic comments about Seb but has been proved time after time he is no match for Sebs ability and is a whinger of the first order as well as being as sick as a parrot having been in a top car for yrs and nothing to show for it.

You seem to have concluded on the basis of one race in which team orders favoured Lewis, that that therefore proves he is the number one driver. By the same logic that must mean that Mark is the number one driver at Red Bull, based on the last race.

I think we need to allow a bit more time to pass and a few more races run to make any definitive conclusions about the pecking order at Mercedes, but my hope remains they will both be treated completely equally and that if anyone is given preferential treatment, it is on the basis of having out driven their team mate and shown themselves more likely title contenders.

Over and above that hope, i hope the FIA retract their silly decision to allow teams to contrive races as they please.

Edited April 12, 2013 by rixalex

[rixalex]

I'm surprised you avoided answering the question of why the team favoured letting Mark win while using two different strategies with Sebs strategy obviously better.

Didn't avoid it i'm just not sure why you seem to be asking me to defend Red Bull's tactical decisions. It was their decision not mine.

[wackysleet]

My stance on racing has never changed nor has my dislike of team orders. How can a team say they have no number 1 and drivers are equal when it was patently obvious that with Lewis v Nico Mercedes does, you have frequently commented on several posts that a number one should be decided by beating his team mate and I'm in total agreement with that view but still believe that drivers should be given equal machinery and opportunities and let them fight it out with the best rising to the surface.

Mark has consistently over the yrs made unnecessary vitriolic comments about Seb but has been proved time after time he is no match for Sebs ability and is a whinger of the first order as well as being as sick as a parrot having been in a top car for yrs and nothing to show for it.

You seem to have concluded on the basis of one race in which team orders favoured Lewis, that that therefore proves he is the number one driver. By the same logic that must mean that Mark is the number one driver at Red Bull.

I think we need to allow a bit more time to pass and a few more races run to make any definitive conclusions about the pecking order at Mercedes, but my hope remains they will both be treated completely equally and that if anyone is given preferential treatment, it is on the basis of having out driven their team mate and shown themselves more likely title contenders.

Over and above that hope, i hope the FIA retract their silly decision to allow teams to contrive races as they please.

On the contrary I think it's fairly obvious that Sebs number 1 and I would be very surprised if Mark was receiving the same money and there is no way a lesser paid driver would be number 1.

I'm sure we have all read of the reputed financial rewards paid to Lewis for what I believe is a 3 year contract {maybe wrong there} and I cannot see Nico on the same kind of money and if that is the case how can they be deemed as equal when the team is paying Lewis more but as you point out mate we are only voicing our personal views and I certainly are not going to risk falling out with you over it.

David

[rixalex]

My stance on racing has never changed nor has my dislike of team orders. How can a team say they have no number 1 and drivers are equal when it was patently obvious that with Lewis v Nico Mercedes does, you have frequently commented on several posts that a number one should be decided by beating his team mate and I'm in total agreement with that view but still believe that drivers should be given equal machinery and opportunities and let them fight it out with the best rising to the surface.

Mark has consistently over the yrs made unnecessary vitriolic comments about Seb but has been proved time after time he is no match for Sebs ability and is a whinger of the first order as well as being as sick as a parrot having been in a top car for yrs and nothing to show for it.

You seem to have concluded on the basis of one race in which team orders favoured Lewis, that that therefore proves he is the number one driver. By the same logic that must mean that Mark is the number one driver at Red Bull.

I think we need to allow a bit more time to pass and a few more races run to make any definitive conclusions about the pecking order at Mercedes, but my hope remains they will both be treated completely equally and that if anyone is given preferential treatment, it is on the basis of having out driven their team mate and shown themselves more likely title contenders.

Over and above that hope, i hope the FIA retract their silly decision to allow teams to contrive races as they please.

On the contrary I think it's fairly obvious that Sebs number 1 and I would be very surprised if Mark was receiving the same money and there is no way a lesser paid driver would be number 1.

I'm sure we have all read of the reputed financial rewards paid to Lewis for what I believe is a 3 year contract {maybe wrong there} and I cannot see Nico on the same kind of money and if that is the case how can they be deemed as equal when the team is paying Lewis more but as you point out mate we are only voicing our personal views and I certainly are not going to risk falling out with you over it.

David:D

By being treated equally i meant with regards their racing. Of course team mates usually have different contracts, and it is usually the driver with the better contract most likely to be the number one driver at a team. Not always true though. Was Alonso number one driver at McClaren? He was certainly being paid a lot more than Lewis.

To the present...I still maintain that with regards Lewis consistently being given preferential equipment, preferential tactics, preferential team orders, as per Alonso at Ferrari and as per Vettel at Red Bull, your conclusions and judgments are a little hasty as we have barely more than a few hours of the Rosberg / Hamilton Mercedes relationship to go on, and one instance of team orders going Hamilton's way is hardly decisive.

With regards falling out, David, i come here for vigorous debate and to have my views challenged. Discussing things with people who agree with everything you say is pretty boring. Please don't think that just because i might challenge you or question you, means i have any less respect for you. I hope you feel the same way.

[Guest]

Let's be realistic.

1) First priority of any driver is to win their teammate. The team mate is where they really can be compared. It's impossible to win the title if one does not win this comparison.

2) F1 drivers are the best of the best. They did not get their seats by being nice people. They got there by showing their skills while driving many classes below F1.

3) All the title winners are even worse than that. Well, with exception. Button seems to be a really nice guy.

4) The speed differences between drivers and cars are really small. Try driving an straight line for 4 kilometers as fast as you can and time the event. Now try to do it again for few times. Even if the environment is the same, would you be able to make all the runs within 1 second? I doubt that. There are quite many drivers within 1 second on qualifications. Think about that once again.

5) Team orders are always there. If those would be banned by FIA, the instructions would just be more subtle. FIA can not control the team orders, so it's better to keep those allowed. Otherwise it would be the same situation as many laws in Thailand are. Many things are forbidden, but not enforced. Not really ideal.

6) The most important issue. It's songkran time so enjoy the water and try to keep the TVs dry to see the race during this weekend.

[Loptr]

At least Seb has said he would do the same again and is not hiding behind the so called team orders. Mark has on numerous occassions in the recent past totally ignored team orders when he has felt like it but what a situation when you know the only chance you have of beating your team mate is when he is told to let you win, a very satisfying moment I don't think.

Please. all you knowledgable pundits out there explain to me how a team running two totally different strategies can decide that the one strategy that is suspect and may/likely fail can be given preference over the strategy that is shown to be performing better and is the more appropiate under the circumstances.

What really dismays me about posters on here who purport to be fans have never complained about Lewis blatant disregard for team orders at Monaco during his race with his team mate Fernando and only obeyed instructions when Ron Dennis took over the radio and blasted him.

As far as deciding which strategy to use, it's the team principle's responsibility to orchestrate the race from flag to flag. In this day and age, considerations must be made in the strategy for tire wear and fuel on board, both of which are paramount. Decisions have to be made and it's not unusual for race strategies to vary from teammate to teammate based on grid position. Sometimes the team principle makes a good decision, sometimes not. This was not the case in Malaysia as Seb disregarded the orders given over the radio.

As far as Lewis disregarding team orders, Alonso have never disregarded team orders, now has he? And Alonso's action directly cost McLaren $100,000,000 USD.

I find Seb's actions and statements to be fairly damning. Yes, every racers first goal is to win the race, although there is the matter that the drivers are hired to do a job and once an employee feels that it is within their power to disregard team orders, then where does that lead? It leads to lack of respect, trust and confidence in this person. Of course Seb will get off without even getting his hand slapped by the team because he is a 3 time WDC. Marc had it right when he said Seb would be protected. There will never be a relationship between Marc and Seb at this point and most likely it will be worse. We all remember the Turkish GP in 2010. Watch for Marc to give no quarter to Seb for the rest of the season. It's a good thing RB decided to cancel team orders for the balance of the year as neither driver would adhere to them at this point. Marc is off the Porsche next year, so this is his swan song. It still would have been nice if Marc had won his 200th start, but Seb saw differently.

What torques me up more than anything was the radio transmission where Seb told his engineer to "move Marc out of the way, he is too slow". When in fact Marc was running lap times set by the team. They told Marc what lap times to run and he did it. Apparently, the boy wonder is too good to listen to his engineer.

[wackysleet]

Loptr.

Fernando did not cost Maclaren any money in fines, he was not the one caught cheating.

My reference to Lewis at Monaco was an example of lot's of drivers who disobey team orders when it suits them with regards to a favoured driver but conveniently overlook their transgressions.

Try to get your head around the aspect of team orders and various strategies, in Mark and Sebs case it was patently obvious that out of the two Sebs strategy was the better seeing as Mark was told to conserve his fuel and tyres but Seb had relatively good tyres and was clearly the fastest under the prevailing conditions and stated quite clearly that he was faster than Mark for whatever reason albeit because Marks strategy was suspect or are you saying that Horner got BOTH strategies wrong.

Now let us take a look at Mercedes, surely another case of blatant team orders determining the finishing position of two drivers because realistically by depriving Nico of 3rd position in the race he decided the outcome and not the skill of the drivers or was that another brilliant strategist admitting that of two variations on a theme he could not get either one right. Anytime along the straight Nico could have safely passed Lewis seeing as there was concern over Lewis fuel level but to say that two different strategies were having the same effect is bull. Nico has been around a long time and he did not get angry for no reason and while I was pleased to hear Lewis admit that Nico should have been on the podium Lewis is a racer and could easily have taken his foot off the gas and forced Nico to overtake and still finished 4th but of course he was following team orders.

This topic of team orders has been discussed numerous times on here and each to their own views but try to remember this, it's the viewers and race fans that are the real important people to please and furnish with a good race and not a procession, without fans then sponsors would not advertise but TEAMS in their rush to get as much sponsors money as possible lead people into believing it's a team sport and the outcome should benefit the team and their quest for big bucks.

Brawn by the way was intervied and reported on Pitpass saying that he has never liked team orders and does not give them except when he feels it necessary {my words and not quoted verbatim} maybe he should tell Rubino that during his years with Mr. Shumacher.

One last thing, the dictionary definition defines RACE as competing not as a result determined by team orders. Team orders decide what is best for the team in the money stakes and not what is best for the fans.

As for the laws in Thailand and the upholding of them is akin to team orders in F1, a bloody joke.

This has been discussed so many times that I suggest we or those posters that believe it's fair for team orders that we should just agree to differ.

David.

[Mosha]

Team orders are wrong, except not taking your team mate out. However they are in the rules, so if the team issues an order, the driver who ever they are is duty could to obey. If they don't like it find another team. Teams should in the current rules fine the drivers who break their rules.

[Guest]

Team orders are wrong, except not taking your team mate out. However they are in the rules, so if the team issues an order, the driver who ever they are is duty could to obey. If they don't like it find another team. Teams should in the current rules fine the drivers who break their rules.

The best guys I know are fair to others, but does not always play by the rules defined by some 'authority'.

It would be utterly boring if all the F1 drivers would be always following the orders coming from the team principal or team committee.

These are drivers, not rule obeying robots.

[Mosha]

No conspiracy theorist here?

[Mosha]

Marvelous (Not) Pissing it down, no signal,

[Loptr]

Loptr.

Fernando did not cost Maclaren any money in fines, he was not the one caught cheating.

My reference to Lewis at Monaco was an example of lot's of drivers who disobey team orders when it suits them with regards to a favoured driver but conveniently overlook their transgressions.

Try to get your head around the aspect of team orders and various strategies, in Mark and Sebs case it was patently obvious that out of the two Sebs strategy was the better seeing as Mark was told to conserve his fuel and tyres but Seb had relatively good tyres and was clearly the fastest under the prevailing conditions and stated quite clearly that he was faster than Mark for whatever reason albeit because Marks strategy was suspect or are you saying that Horner got BOTH strategies wrong.

Now let us take a look at Mercedes, surely another case of blatant team orders determining the finishing position of two drivers because realistically by depriving Nico of 3rd position in the race he decided the outcome and not the skill of the drivers or was that another brilliant strategist admitting that of two variations on a theme he could not get either one right. Anytime along the straight Nico could have safely passed Lewis seeing as there was concern over Lewis fuel level but to say that two different strategies were having the same effect is bull. Nico has been around a long time and he did not get angry for no reason and while I was pleased to hear Lewis admit that Nico should have been on the podium Lewis is a racer and could easily have taken his foot off the gas and forced Nico to overtake and still finished 4th but of course he was following team orders.

This topic of team orders has been discussed numerous times on here and each to their own views but try to remember this, it's the viewers and race fans that are the real important people to please and furnish with a good race and not a procession, without fans then sponsors would not advertise but TEAMS in their rush to get as much sponsors money as possible lead people into believing it's a team sport and the outcome should benefit the team and their quest for big bucks.

Brawn by the way was intervied and reported on Pitpass saying that he has never liked team orders and does not give them except when he feels it necessary {my words and not quoted verbatim} maybe he should tell Rubino that during his years with Mr. Shumacher.

One last thing, the dictionary definition defines RACE as competing not as a result determined by team orders. Team orders decide what is best for the team in the money stakes and not what is best for the fans.

As for the laws in Thailand and the upholding of them is akin to team orders in F1, a bloody joke.

This has been discussed so many times that I suggest we or those posters that believe it's fair for team orders that we should just agree to differ.

David.

Alonso didn't cost McLaren $100,000,000 in fines to the FIA? I suggest you do a bit of research before you make comments such as this without knowing the facts. In a nutshell, Alonso knew of the Ferrari espionage connection while at McLaren. After he got his panties in a twist with him not being the no 1 in the team and with Lewis breathing down his neck in the championship, he attempted to blackmail Ron by telling him that if Lewis didn't go, he would go to Bernie with what he knew of the McLaren / Ferrari espionage case. Ron then went to the FIA himself and confessed, and paid the fine. If this isn't a true reflection of Alonso's character then nothing is. Go ahead and defend him, but to me there is nothing worse than a rat in your midst and a grasser at that.

As far as the rest of your post, I have zero problems with team orders. That is the way it is. The problem I have is the teams not being up front about it when they sign drivers. Case in point, Mercedes are emphatic about there not being a no 1 or no 2 in the team, while everyone knows that Lewis is the chosen one. Hypocrites if you ask me. Much the way RB has played Marc Webber for years. After last weekend at China, is there any doubt who is no 1 and no 2 at RB? The FACT that the team left him out on the course with zero fuel in Q3 proves the point? RB does not make mistakes like that.

[b19bry]

Loptr.

Fernando did not cost Maclaren any money in fines, he was not the one caught cheating.

My reference to Lewis at Monaco was an example of lot's of drivers who disobey team orders when it suits them with regards to a favoured driver but conveniently overlook their transgressions.

Try to get your head around the aspect of team orders and various strategies, in Mark and Sebs case it was patently obvious that out of the two Sebs strategy was the better seeing as Mark was told to conserve his fuel and tyres but Seb had relatively good tyres and was clearly the fastest under the prevailing conditions and stated quite clearly that he was faster than Mark for whatever reason albeit because Marks strategy was suspect or are you saying that Horner got BOTH strategies wrong.

Now let us take a look at Mercedes, surely another case of blatant team orders determining the finishing position of two drivers because realistically by depriving Nico of 3rd position in the race he decided the outcome and not the skill of the drivers or was that another brilliant strategist admitting that of two variations on a theme he could not get either one right. Anytime along the straight Nico could have safely passed Lewis seeing as there was concern over Lewis fuel level but to say that two different strategies were having the same effect is bull. Nico has been around a long time and he did not get angry for no reason and while I was pleased to hear Lewis admit that Nico should have been on the podium Lewis is a racer and could easily have taken his foot off the gas and forced Nico to overtake and still finished 4th but of course he was following team orders.

This topic of team orders has been discussed numerous times on here and each to their own views but try to remember this, it's the viewers and race fans that are the real important people to please and furnish with a good race and not a procession, without fans then sponsors would not advertise but TEAMS in their rush to get as much sponsors money as possible lead people into believing it's a team sport and the outcome should benefit the team and their quest for big bucks.

Brawn by the way was intervied and reported on Pitpass saying that he has never liked team orders and does not give them except when he feels it necessary {my words and not quoted verbatim} maybe he should tell Rubino that during his years with Mr. Shumacher.

One last thing, the dictionary definition defines RACE as competing not as a result determined by team orders. Team orders decide what is best for the team in the money stakes and not what is best for the fans.

As for the laws in Thailand and the upholding of them is akin to team orders in F1, a bloody joke.

This has been discussed so many times that I suggest we or those posters that believe it's fair for team orders that we should just agree to differ.

David.

Alonso didn't cost McLaren $100,000,000 in fines to the FIA?

No he certainly did not, David is quite right he was not the one caught cheating. There was some mud thrown at him by the Hamilton supporting press but that's all. If you have any concrete proof to support what you claim fair enough, but for 100% sure you don't. Let's not let this degenerate into yet another year of persistent assinine & unfounded Alonso bashing on this forum.

Gotta love the headline on the BBC website today:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22141499

I'd say the Red Bull is still probably the quickest car if it not the best on tyre wear, the Ferrari and Lotus both looking strong in race trim. Shaping up to be another tight contest.

[b19bry]

Loptr,

Here's a link to the 2007 Mclaren spygate saga you refer to :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Formula_One_espionage_controversy

Unless you have some more concrete proof to back up your claim regarding Alonso I suggest it's you who needs to do some more research.

[b19bry]

Loptr.

Fernando did not cost Maclaren any money in fines, he was not the one caught cheating.

Alonso didn't cost McLaren $100,000,000 in fines to the FIA?

As a matter of interest, apart from a personal bias why would you not hold the following more accountable for the $100,000m ?

1. McLaren supremo Ron Dennis,

2. Managing Director Martin Whitmarsh

3. Technical Director Jonathan Neale

4, 5 & 6 Designers Rob Taylor, Mike Coughlan & wife Trudy (who copied the data)

7, 8 & 9 Team Members Paddy Lowe, Jonathon Neale, & Rob Taylor

10. Ferrari mechanic Nigel Stepney

[wackysleet]

Loptr.

I suggest you re;read that article and try to inwardly digest the contents instead of talking utter bullsh-t. Check the dates at 14/15th September and read what Max had to say about the blatant lies that Ron was continuing to tell and read the FIAs threat to drivers about witholding information that they already knew who was aware of that info so why should Pedro and Fernando risk their careers for Ron and Mercedes.

Ron Dennis was always aware of Maclaren having that information whether Maclaren ever benefitted from it we probably wont know especially from the mechanical side but the pitstop strategy was a plus point for Maclaren.

Try reading a bit more about previous racing between Lewis and Fernando and you may even understand why Fernando got some pay back time with his extended pit stop but then again it's apparent from your diatribe that your not an Alonso fan but just possibly a fan that twists the facts to suit his own distorted view on the situation.

Strange how Ron never appealed the fine.

[Mosha]

Alonso was happy enough to play along, until he no longer got his own way. Commentators at the time did say, what McLaren did was no different than what other teams were doing.

[wackysleet]

Steve.

Your right as far as Fernando going along with it but wrong about him not getting his own way. The FIA were aware of who had the information concerning Ferrari and told the parties that if you come clean then there will be no comeback as far as invoking your licence in the case of Pedro and Fernando and relative punishment against the other concerned individuals but Ron continued to lie to Max and if he was so innocent why not appeal the fine and the lost constructors points?.

Whether a person GRASSED UP or not does not change the fact that Maclaren were privy to stolen info and that includes Ron.

I'm sure Renault were also guilty along with other teams and individuals but that is not pertinent to this case in respect of Fernando, and for Loptr to call him a Rat while not commenting on the real perpetrators in my view says far more about his attitudes and morals in condoning, by his silence of Maclarens deviousness in this matter.

David.

[b19bry]

Alonso was happy enough to play along, until he no longer got his own way. Commentators at the time did say, what McLaren did was no different than what other teams were doing.

I think it's well recorded Alonso never got his own way at Mclaren, however it's certain from the Hungarian race on he was not the 'favoured' driver.

Even if all the driver's on the grid were 'happy enough to play along' as your asserting, does that make it right ?

[rixalex]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22208097

What do you guys think of how Perez is doing? Early days of course, but so far, he's proven my suspicions of him not being quite there. Was always for me a rather strange appointment by McClaren. Perhaps they should have tried to secure Raikkonen's services when they had the chance. Anyway, hope Perez manages to up his game.

[wackysleet]

Rix.

I have to agree 100% as I always thought given the right car he would excel, unfortunately the Maclaren as yet is perhaps not the right car but still good enough to do better than he has. I am disappointed in him as he has not lived up to my expectations at all and even though it's still early days I think I over estimated his abilities but we will see.

I would suspect that if he does not up his game when the Maclaren is up to speed then I think his stay will be short lived.

David.

[Totster]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22208097

What do you guys think of how Perez is doing? Early days of course, but so far, he's proven my suspicions of him not being quite there. Was always for me a rather strange appointment by McClaren. Perhaps they should have tried to secure Raikkonen's services when they had the chance. Anyway, hope Perez manages to up his game.

Personally, I would have liked to see Paul Di Resta in the McClaren.

totster

[wackysleet]

Totster.

He is showing some skill but never really fired me up for some reason, doesn't seem to be much of a character with too much personality but saying that, he is not often interviewed and doesn't get so much TV exposure as some.

David.

[rixalex]

Would be great to see Kubica return to F1 and one wonders if any of the top teams, like McClaren, have considered giving him a go. I know be rebroke his leg last year, but he is back racing this year, albeit it in rally, so one assumes his fitness level is ok.

[Mosha]

Did any one hear the remark yesterday from I think it was the President of FIA. The Bahrain GP is a great unifier, or something like that. I know sport and politics should not mix, but I wonder what goes on in the FIAs collective heads.

[Mosha]

Next year a night race? Ccommentators think it'll attract more spectators. It'll hide how featureless the track is, is all