The Importance Of Preparing A Will In Thailand

[ford8]

quote "I also thought fleetingly of the Catch-22 scenario but quickly dismissed it as too silly and hugely improbable. I therefore concluded that the likely answer rests in the cover sheet of the sealed will which I would guess also contains the executor's name etc, that being the only person able to retrieve the will, without involving a court/probate process. Presumably there's some sort of back and forth process between the Amphur and the hospitals that allows the Executor to retrieve the mortal remains on the basis of the will coversheet?"

AS tallguy says "murky"

WE do not have the advantage of a poster who has been down this route with a sefinitive experience.

[chiang mai]

quote "I also thought fleetingly of the Catch-22 scenario but quickly dismissed it as too silly and hugely improbable. I therefore concluded that the likely answer rests in the cover sheet of the sealed will which I would guess also contains the executor's name etc, that being the only person able to retrieve the will, without involving a court/probate process. Presumably there's some sort of back and forth process between the Amphur and the hospitals that allows the Executor to retrieve the mortal remains on the basis of the will coversheet?"

AS tallguy says "murky"

WE do not have the advantage of a poster who has been down this route with a sefinitive experience.

I'll take no more criticism of my posts from you on this subject, if you're not happy with what I write, put me on "Ignore", clear?

I think we've already established long ago Ford that there are areas of the Amphur Will process that are unclear to everyone in this thread. Thus until somebody comes along who can add knowledge, it is not unreasonable in this debate to add supposition and theory without detracting from the debate.

As you may or may not know there are many aspects of life in Thailand where everyday processes are unclear, not enforced uniformly or differ based on location, trying to find one person with all the answers is therefore very difficult.

I trust you don't have a problem with that!

[evadgib]

Well, I don't know for certain, but I'd imagine blood relations and/or a surviving spouse would be able to obtain a Thai death certificate for their family member, regardless of a will being involved.

The correct procedure is for the Embassy to be informed of the death of a foreign national and for them to issue LoR (Letter of Release) to the Next of Kin (NOK) or someone appointed by NOK to act on their behalf. Ideally 4 copies are needed (original +3) as follows:

1. Hospital: (Release of mortal remains)

2. Police: (Unnatural causes-Confirm investigation has concluded <see 4!> & recover pers effects inc Passport as necessary)

3. Ampur: (Death Cert-You're unlikely to get one without LoR & the deceased's passport/copy)

4. Abbot/Wat: (Authority to cremate)

HTH

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks for the good post. But raises at least two questions...

1. What part of the Thai officialdom actually issues the Thai death certificate??? Your post in #3 seems to say it's the Amphur office... Amphur where the person died or where their home was???

2. And re your #1, in this context, what happens if the deceased has no legal next of kin, or wants someone other than their NOK to be their executor and the person handling their affairs here? How do you get that direction recognized by either your consulate and/or the Amphur office or other Thai authorities?

[evadgib]

1. Where they died.

2. Not sure, but will likely involve the legal profe$$ion.

[chiang mai]

Only a doctor or a hospital can issue a death certificate, the Amphur is certainly not qualified to do such.

[evadgib]

<deleted post>

[cnx37]

So simple - yet so difficult!

I have been living together with a Thai lady for about 10 years - no registered marriage.

I spoke with a Thai friend who referred me to his lawyer - Thai.

I drafted the will in English & it was witnessed by the lawyer & his wife (both lawyers).

All assets go to my Thai partner - simple - there are no overseas assets.

The will was placed in a sealed envelope & I signed across the seal.

Out of curiousity, on my request, my wife attended the Amphur office (in Chiang Mai). She was told that I had to comply with certain additional mundane matters - no problem.

Then, I was told that I needed a medical certificate from a hospital certifying that I have mental capacity to sign the will. I had not completed this process.

Therefore, my questions -

a) does the will need to be in both languages for practical purposes?

without the medical certificate, is my current will null & void?

c) if applies, to rectify same, I need a new will (Thai & English), medical certificate that I am not "mad"?

d) is it mandatory that the will be registered & retained by the Amphur office? (not at this time)

e) can my "wife" be executor of the estate? - assets are simple - cash at bank (we both can sign - one signature required only) & a condo (in my name)?

f) upon my death, I am advised by my bank that my wife can just transfer the funds of to her own account - no problems.

g) my wife can go to the Land Office & transfer the condo into her name or sell such? (I assume that if the property is transferred into her name, tax will apply).

h) other

Although this is quite simple, I have overseas relatives who have already manipulated/cheated me for a considerable sum.

I did consider that we should marry & register the marriage in order to ensure that the o/seas connection is definitely precluded from making a claim/attack based on "blood". My wife states that it is a "hassle" with the registered marriage - change ID, ownership of other assets eg land, cars etc etc. We could marry but she can retain her maiden name? Therefore, no registration name changes for other assets.

Other option - drastic - close all bank acounts (except visa a/c). Wife places funds in her name. Transfer condo ownership into wife's name. I am confident that she will sell the condo upon my death.

Thank you

[Jip99]

Marry.

You won't need a Will if you are inclined to rely on the Thai rules of intestacy.

Wife can take death certificate to land office, state that there is no Will and request transfer into her name.

Your wife is likely to be eligible for bereavement benefits upon your death (a GF is not).

[cnx37]

"Bereavement Benefits" - this may apply to UK citizens/residents.I am not from UK!

Thai law - payments by the Thai government? I would be surprised - maybe B500 once off! I think that my "wife's" grandmother gets a monthly age pension of B800.

Although I have resided in Thailand for 11 years, I am baffled by the inconsistencies in interpretation & application of the law - same in farang countries? A good deal for the law fraternity? Obviously, "tea money" comes into play - pay - smooth transition? No play - hell?

Making an appointment with a psych to get an assessment? I doubt that it is mandatory or applied in LOS. The psychs would be busy for the next 20 years. (I went to the hospital today - no appointments available for a few days).

So far - SIMPLE?

a) get married & register at Amphur office.

or

gift the majority of assets to "wife" now.

I do not wish to hire a lawyer to manage the estate - too simple. B5000-15000 for the drafting of a will. Managing the distribution of the estate - B100k?

My previous post contains all the pertinent questions.

[Jip99]

"Bereavement Benefits" - this may apply to UK citizens/residents.I am not from UK!

Thai law - payments by the Thai government? I would be surprised - maybe B500 once off! I think that my "wife's" grandmother gets a monthly age pension of B800.

Although I have resided in Thailand for 11 years, I am baffled by the inconsistencies in interpretation & application of the law - same in farang countries? A good deal for the law fraternity? Obviously, "tea money" comes into play - pay - smooth transition? No play - hell?

Making an appointment with a psych to get an assessment? I doubt that it is mandatory or applied in LOS. The psychs would be busy for the next 20 years. (I went to the hospital today - no appointments available for a few days).

So far - SIMPLE?

a) get married & register at Amphur office.

or

gift the majority of assets to "wife" now.

I do not wish to hire a lawyer to manage the estate - too simple. B5000-15000 for the drafting of a will. Managing the distribution of the estate - B100k?

My previous post contains all the pertinent questions.

Apologies. I wrongly assumed you were from the UK (although I would normally caveat my answer to refer to UK nationals).

Did you state where you were from ?

[timewilltell]

From my experience in Thailand,it is safer to use a lawyer who is employed by a a long established company who employ many staff.It is best to avoid one man or one women firms who rent a little room for their business. If something goes wrong the big company is always around.The small company can dissappear and then what?

I was told there is some kind of organisation where you can complain if a lawyer gives you bad service. They, can even be suspended and struck off the register. Try Google search.

That would be the Lawyers Council and foreigners should get much more confident to use it.

[raybal5]

I found these articles of more practical use than the original post.

http://www.samuiforsale.com/family-law/forms-of-wills-under-thai-law.html

http://www.thailandlawonline.com/thai-family-and-marriage-law/legal-aspects-of-a-last-will-and-testament-in-thailand

[Iforbach]

hi guys any suggestions as to have a will done in pattaya thanks

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Foxter]

Just one important thing, a will is world wide, you cannot have two wills, eg, one in Thailand and in your home country. The latest one will override the previous, so make sure whatever will include in your will covers all items from both or all countries .

I was told this by lawyers in both countries

Hope this helps

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

That's not the advice I've received from several attorneys...in fact, just the opposite.

The prevailing advice seems to be two wills:

1. for any Thai assets and conforming to Thai law on wills.

1. for any other assets outside Thailand and conforming to your home country/state laws.

The Thai will would specifically say it only applies to assets inside Thailand. The other will would specifically note you have a separate will just for assets in Thailand.

[chiang mai]

Just one important thing, a will is world wide, you cannot have two wills, eg, one in Thailand and in your home country. The latest one will override the previous, so make sure whatever will include in your will covers all items from both or all countries .

I was told this by lawyers in both countries

Hope this helps

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

That is not correct, a separate will for Thailand is advisable and your home country will must reference its existence and the scope of both of them, lawyers in the UK and Thailand have confirmed this fact repeatedly..

[Foxter]

Just one important thing, a will is world wide, you cannot have two wills, eg, one in Thailand and in your home country. The latest one will override the previous, so make sure whatever will include in your will covers all items from both or all countries .

I was told this by lawyers in both countries

Hope this helps

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

That is not correct, a separate will for Thailand is advisable and your home country will must reference its existence and the scope of both of them, lawyers in the UK and Thailand have confirmed this fact repeatedly..

Yes you are right, but it does depend on how the will is worded. I took the sand point of the normal wording

Most wills state , that this will overrides all other existing wills, if you do this, then yes, only one will apply, that one, no matter what country.

However if you write a will in the knowledge of another will in another country, and state that in both wills, you can have two wills.

I did not mean to confuse anyone, including me lol

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[sandyyy]

Thank you for sharing this useful information with us. This information about importance of preparing will in thailand is very useful for all the people of thailang who want to make his will so this is very useful info. So in future also if you sharing info about importance of preparing will in India. So please share it because i am interested in this.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _

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[Jip99]

Just one important thing, a will is world wide, you cannot have two wills, eg, one in Thailand and in your home country. The latest one will override the previous, so make sure whatever will include in your will covers all items from both or all countries .

I was told this by lawyers in both countries

Hope this helps

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

That is not correct, a separate will for Thailand is advisable and your home country will must reference its existence and the scope of both of them, lawyers in the UK and Thailand have confirmed this fact repeatedly..

Yes you are right, but it does depend on how the will is worded. I took the sand point of the normal wording

Most wills state , that this will overrides all other existing wills, if you do this, then yes, only one will apply, that one, no matter what country.

However if you write a will in the knowledge of another will in another country, and state that in both wills, you can have two wills.

I did not mean to confuse anyone, including me lol

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Legally, one Will will suffice.

Those that have had dealings with Thai assets will understand that separate Wills are more practical.

[zapatero]

Thai properties and vehicles already in Thai wife's name. Thai bank accounts are joint. Any other material assets in Thailand are of secondary/little importance. Is/are there reason(s) for having a Thai will?

Thank you very much for your thoughts.

[kokesaat]

I've read all 7 pages on this thread. Still have a question (or three):

My Thai wife (also American citizen) and I with a few pieces of land in Thailand and our house/vehicle/possessions and several bank accounts. One Thai bank account is in my name only....retirement account. The other Thai bank accounts can be accessed by either of us. All our stateside accounts are either joint or IRA (with beneficiary designated).

Our only child was born a US citizen and never obtained Thai nationality. She's now 40.

As I understand Thai law, if my wife dies, I have to deal with selling the land in a prescribed amount of time (??one year??).

If both of us die, and we leave the house/land to our daughter (again, not a Thai citizen), does she get the same one year grace period to deal with the land/house?

Having read all the info here, it seems to me the best route is to draw up a will in English yourself, get it translated by a competent and certified translator, get 2 or more witnesses to sign both the English and the Thai versions, then keep the wills in a safe place.

If anyone has experience on how to deal leaving Thai possessions to a child who is not a Thai citizen, your suggestions are welcome!

[chiang mai]

A Thai Will can specify anyone as a beneficiary, if that person is not a Thai citizen they have one year to sell immovable property in Thailand.

[brewsterbudgen]

hi guys any suggestions as to have a will done in pattaya thanks

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

KeyVisa (Pattaya) quoted me 6,000 for preparing a Thai will.

http://www.keyvisathailand.com/contact/

[JimGant]

Thai properties and vehicles already in Thai wife's name. Thai bank accounts are joint. Any other material assets in Thailand are of secondary/little importance. Is/are there reason(s) for having a Thai will?

Thai joint bank accounts have an ill defined legal description on survivorship, at least from what I've read on this forum. It has sounded as if it all depends on how your bank manager perceives matters, since nothing, apparently, is written down in legal code. He just might seal the account, pending probate. (Thus, have her prepare to empty that account, into her individual account, before the body's cold. Possession should trump any confused bank manager.)

But, having said that, why not write out your Will and have it witnessed by two folks, other than your wife (yes, a hand written Will doesn't require witnesses, but their added signatures provide additional value, should things need to be probated). Not much time, nor any money involved, to sit down right now and do it -- just in case your bank manager becomes a problem.

And the cars and property in your wife's name? Suggest she sit down and write out her Will -- unless you know you'll be first off the tee. Have her list the property and cars definitively (not just "I leave everything....') by chanote and serial numbers. So too the bank account numbers (as in your case, as well).

Oh, a hand written Will, saying you leave your joint account(s) to your spouse, should assuage any bank manager annoyed/confused about emptying out the joint account. Better than no Will to waive at him....

[chiang mai]

I have taken legal advise extensively on this subject and my Thai "will" reads "everything" rather than to compile a list of items that need frequent updates.

And joint bank account are just that, they belong to two people, either party can transact on the account, bank managers cannot therefore suspend or close the account just because one party has died.

Finally, at a cost of THB 5,000, a reputable Thai lawyer (in Chiang Mai at least) will prepare your will, witness it, video record that it is indeed what you require and keep a copy for safe keeping, what better value can there possibly be.

[JimGant]

I have taken legal advise extensively on this subject and my Thai "will" reads "everything" rather than to compile a list of items that need frequent updates.

The legal advice I received was to say "everything, including specific blah blah blah." That some bank accounts might subsequently close, or new ones opened, would be covered, I hope, by "everything" (or I could add a handwritten codicil of specific changes). My chanotes, which for sure aren't changing, are definitely listed in full. My lawyer said the land office could easily demand a lot more court guidance if 'everything' replaced specific chanote listings.

Joint accounts? Again, we've seen different perspectives on this -- just as some bank managers won't open an account without a work permit. But, my advice to this was to just write in longhand your Will, and have it witnessed for good measure. Having a Will is just good insurance -- and one that can take little effort, and no cost.

Finally, at a cost of THB 5,000, a reputable Thai lawyer (in Chiang Mai at least) will prepare your will, witness it, video record that it is indeed what you require and keep a copy for safe keeping, what better value can there possibly be.

See previous paragraph.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Regarding Thai wills, as I understand it, there are two different routes that they can go:

1. If you do your Thai will and have it properly registered at a local Amphur office, and follow their requirements, then that should be enough to avoid lawyers and Thai probate court once the will writer has died. Your heir just retrieves the certified will document from the Amphur office, and that's supposed to be enough to open the required doors.

2. But if you just prepare your will and have it witnessed and stick it away in a drawer at home, and then die, as I understand it, that's the scenario where your spouse and/or other heirs are going to have to go through the lawyers and Thai Probate court process. Which will mean extra time, headache and cost for those involved.

To me, from everything I've heard, and out of a desire to simplify things for my heir(s), the Amphur-filed will is the way to go.

[JimGant]

To me, from everything I've heard, and out of a desire to simplify things for my heir(s), the Amphur-filed will is the way to go.

John, I would agree -- specifically, the "private" model, which can be prepared yourself, or with a lawyer, with no need for Amphur boilerplate documents, nor Amphur eyes on your assets (my wife's reason for walking out, when they wanted too many details of her assets, which she considered none of their business). As you mentioned in another thread, such "private" Wills are what most farangs do, according to the Amphur you chatted with.

Anyway, a lot of threads on Amphur Wills, including the following:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/599413-amphur-will/page-3

Now, the most interesting dialogue regarding Amphur Wills has been how -- and to what extent -- they obviate the need for lawyers and/or probate. I put the following to the "ask the lawyer" sub forum on TV:

Question: Is a Will that is prepared at the Amphur and subsequently stored there (or presented 'sealed' to the Amphur for storage there) self probating? In other words, if my wife dies, and I as executor and sole beneficiary retrieves her Will from the Amphur, does this Will still have to be probated in a Thai court?

If the answer is "yes," what's the point of involving the Amphur in the first place?

Answer: The wills that are prepared at the Amphur are not stored at the Amphur for self probate, you will still be required to go to court regarding probate of the will. The point of having a will done at the Amphur is for the cheap price, but everything will be in Thai with no translation.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/716815-amphur-wills/

Hmmmm. Doesn't address private Wills per se-- but overall, suggests any and all Amphur Wills need to go to court. Not sure I'd put much stock in their answer, however -- sounds like something you'd expect to hear from a lawyer soliciting business. But, who knows -- this may, indeed, be a grey area in Thai law.

Still awaiting dead testators to provide us with some empirical data. Stay tuned.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Now, the most interesting dialogue regarding Amphur Wills has been how -- and to what extent -- they obviate the need for lawyers and/or probate. I put the following to the "ask the lawyer" sub forum on TV:

Question: Is a Will that is prepared at the Amphur and subsequently stored there (or presented 'sealed' to the Amphur for storage there) self probating? In other words, if my wife dies, and I as executor and sole beneficiary retrieves her Will from the Amphur, does this Will still have to be probated in a Thai court?

If the answer is "yes," what's the point of involving the Amphur in the first place?

Answer: The wills that are prepared at the Amphur are not stored at the Amphur for self probate, you will still be required to go to court regarding probate of the will. The point of having a will done at the Amphur is for the cheap price, but everything will be in Thai with no translation.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/716815-amphur-wills/

Hmmmm. Doesn't address private Wills per se-- but overall, suggests any and all Amphur Wills need to go to court. Not sure I'd put much stock in their answer, however -- sounds like something you'd expect to hear from a lawyer soliciting business. But, who knows -- this may, indeed, be a grey area in Thai law.

Still awaiting dead testators to provide us with some empirical data. Stay tuned.

Jim, thanks for that post, and for the query to the Ask the Lawyer forum... I hadn't seen your question or caught his answer there. Based on various of the answers I've seen there on subjects where I have some knowledge, I'm not sure I'd put much stock in that opinion.

But, I agree, the issue of Amphur wills being self-probating hasn't been clearly settled as best as I've been able to tell. There certainly are indications that's the case, and then, also indications to the contrary. Hard to sort out.

However, regarding the attorney, his comment about "everything will be done in Thai with no translation" is clearly wrong. A person can use the Thai will form that Amphur offices have. But you can also use an attorney prepared will or any other version you choose. And in fact, generally, the recommendation is to file a dual language version, Thai and English translation. Because this is Thailand, the Thai language version would govern in the event of any discrepancy.

Overall, though, I'd certainly like to get a clearer answer on the subject of self-probating. And hopefully, I won't have to die in order to find out.