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The Importance Of Preparing A Will In Thailand


george

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Several lawyers have told me over time that a Thai will for a foreigner can only be produced in the first instance using the language of the country that the foreigner comes from, otherwise how does the foreigner know what they are signing! I'm also told that unless such a document exists the translated will can be nullified - it can however be translated into Thai for probate purposes, after the fact. It all sounds very reasonable and sensible to me.

EDIT:

The following document from here http://www.isaanlawyers.com/Wills%20and%20Estate%20Planning.pdf talks about the various ways to make a will, including the Amphur approach along with several other methods, they all however fall under the heading of a "probated will". Personally, I do not believe that the method you use to write your will has any bearing on the probate issue, I believe they all have to go through the same process although the value of the contents of the will may influence that.

Edited by chiang mai
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Several lawyers have told me over time that a Thai will for a foreigner can only be produced in the first instance using the language of the country that the foreigner comes from, otherwise how does the foreigner know what they are signing! I'm also told that unless such a document exists the translated will can be nullified - it can however be translated into Thai for probate purposes, after the fact. It all sounds very reasonable and sensible to me.

EDIT:

The following document from here http://www.isaanlawyers.com/Wills%20and%20Estate%20Planning.pdf talks about the various ways to make a will, including the Amphur approach along with several other methods, they all however fall under the heading of a "probated will". Personally, I do not believe that the method you use to write your will has any bearing on the probate issue, I believe they all have to go through the same process although the value of the contents of the will may influence that.

What you say in the first paragraph CM makes a lot of sense. I would add that making a will in English is what we would understand, then you have to hope that its translated accurately into Thai and you just have to hope dont you, just think whether and weather. Its important also to stress, make it as simple and concise as you can, use small words that are less likely to be misinterpreted and dont forget to add "that this will will not affect any will I have made in the UK (or other ). Your UK will should also state the same for your Thai will.

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There seems to be a lack of 'real-life' experience with wills here. Having read the 7 pages of this thread, I'm not convinced that going the lawyer route is the best (although western intuition would tell me to go that route). The amphur route seems to be what Thais do.....and if that's what Thais do, isn't that what we should do?

One problem I can see with the amphur route: I have a retirement account in Thailand. As such, it is in my name only.....joint accounts aren't allowed. And because rates are so pathetically low on normal savings accounts, I've put my 800k into a fixed account. Each time I renew the term (usually for different lengths of time, depending on the going rate), they issue me a new account number. If I were to register this account with the amphur, how do I deal with a changing account number?

Maybe I need to consider giving up a solo retirement account and just get the annual embassy letter, based on income (no problem).

Second problem: our daughter is an American citizen, residing in the US (she was both outside of Thailand and never got Thai citizenship.....now she's 40). I'll assume that in the event both my wife and I die, our daughter would assume ownership of our land/home, but would be required to sell it off within the one year grace period.

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There seems to be a lack of 'real-life' experience with wills here. Having read the 7 pages of this thread, I'm not convinced that going the lawyer route is the best (although western intuition would tell me to go that route). The amphur route seems to be what Thais do.....and if that's what Thais do, isn't that what we should do?

One problem I can see with the amphur route: I have a retirement account in Thailand. As such, it is in my name only.....joint accounts aren't allowed. And because rates are so pathetically low on normal savings accounts, I've put my 800k into a fixed account. Each time I renew the term (usually for different lengths of time, depending on the going rate), they issue me a new account number. If I were to register this account with the amphur, how do I deal with a changing account number?

Maybe I need to consider giving up a solo retirement account and just get the annual embassy letter, based on income (no problem).

Second problem: our daughter is an American citizen, residing in the US (she was both outside of Thailand and never got Thai citizenship.....now she's 40). I'll assume that in the event both my wife and I die, our daughter would assume ownership of our land/home, but would be required to sell it off within the one year grace period.

All my accounts are at the same bank to make things easier to deal with, my death certifcate shown to the bank manager will alert him/her that I have died and changes will soon be happening as the process here unfurls.

Your account for the retirement visa should be changed to a "mee tae dai" account which pays a much better rate over the 8 month duration, have a look on the krungsri website and my local Immigration Office says they accept it and I know others do as well.

I will go throught the Amphur route for my will, it will short, use little words, be in English and will also refer to my will in the UK. All parties know that what is England stays in England and what is in Thailand stays in Thailand.

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Each time I renew the term (usually for different lengths of time, depending on the going rate), they issue me a new account number. If I were to register this account with the amphur, how do I deal with a changing account number?

Excellent question. Some lawyers (Chiang Mai's, for example) have advised that "everything" is good enough to describe what's being left to the beneficiary. Others have recommended listing bank accounts and other readily described property (cars, for example) as line items. And amphur Will boilerplate asks for specific article listings, so I guess this might suggest Thais do like specifics. I guess, then, wording such as "everything, to include x,y,z" might do the trick.

But, yeah, marching off to the amphur to change your Will every time you add a bank account would be a pain. And, exactly what your bank manager accepts (or doesn't) is probably all over the map, as is most in Thailand in dealing with individual rice bowls (and no definitive guidance). So, I'd suggest you ask your bank manager about this situation, with maybe ".....fixed account 12345 and/or all additional or roll over accounts that may be established after today's date" as acceptable wording (or whatever he suggests to get around this). Of course, nothing to guarantee who the bank manager will be when you croak.

Several posters have asked their bank managers Will related questions -- with interesting (and differing) answers. One manager asked to keep a copy of the Will in his safe -- to be opened upon death. Presumably such a Will would not have any official chops on it, like those from the amphur, so its official status sure seems questionable. But, hey, if presented sealed to the bank manager, in person by the testator, what's to question upon death? And, most importantly, if that's what he says he'll accept, should be good enough -- 'til maybe a new manger....rolleyes.gif Anyway, suggest you chat it up with your bank manager for his suggestions. (And, please report back what he said...)

I'll assume that in the event both my wife and I die, our daughter would assume ownership of our land/home, but would be required to sell it off within the one year grace period.

Right, assuming, of course, your Wills stipulate such. The one year time frame to sell the land has been the norm reported on this forum. However, the "ask the lawyer" sub forum has several times mentioned "6 months" only allowed. Not sure where they're coming from, nor who's correct......

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It is useful to make a seperate list of your assets and where to find them alone with any customer reference, that is what I have done, over the years I consolidated to make life easier for who has to deal with the end game. You can keep this safe at home and update it annualy if required, it has no signature on it, its for imformation only and does not need to be left with a lawyer/amphur.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I dont understand why someone with millions of baht in property and in bank accounts, cars, bikes, furniture doesnt spend 5000 baht and have a Will made?

It defies logic why you want to save a few baht and register it at the local Amphur and not with a certified Lawyer.

All methods end up in court so that the Executor is approved by the Court - FULL STOP

My estate and everything else in my name that I may have in Thailand covers ALL.

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I had a Last Will drafted a month ago by Siam Legal in Pattaya.

It was done and signed both in English and in Thai.

Beneficiary is my TGF. (She is quite happy about this - LOL).

Paid 10,000 baht.

I am very satisfied with the service.

The main asset are my two BKK bank accounts (where I maintain at least the stay permit extension min 800k).

They wanted that I list everything of value in my two rented studios (BKK and Pattaya).

I said NYET - just put "Everything in the studios" instead (I also have cash !!).

But I had to let them detail my modest motocy ownership book. Not important and useless if I buy a new one.

Before going to Siam Legal I had downloaded and filled out a Last Will in Thai and English from the Internet. Paid $25 by CC.

Quite well made but I finally decided that a Last Will done and signed by an established Law Office would be more easily accepted.

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I had a Last Will drafted a month ago by Siam Legal in Pattaya.

It was done and signed both in English and in Thai.

Beneficiary is my TGF. (She is quite happy about this - LOL).

Paid 10,000 baht.

I am very satisfied with the service.

The main asset are my two BKK bank accounts (where I maintain at least the stay permit extension min 800k).

They wanted that I list everything of value in my two rented studios (BKK and Pattaya).

I said NYET - just put "Everything in the studios" instead (I also have cash !!).

But I had to let them detail my modest motocy ownership book. Not important and useless if I buy a new one.

Before going to Siam Legal I had downloaded and filled out a Last Will in Thai and English from the Internet. Paid $25 by CC.

Quite well made but I finally decided that a Last Will done and signed by an established Law Office would be more easily accepted.

If paying 8,000 Baht more than you need to gives you a sense of security, all well and good.

A simple Will should cost no more than 2,000 Baht.

Remember, no one is trying to "catch you out" after you die. A sole beneficiary Will is usually uncomplicated - especially where only bank accounts are concerned. The bank would invariably help a Thai beneficiary through the process. Moveable chattels are irrelevant where there is only one beneficiary.

Just picture what happens after your death - no one is going to contest a simple bequest such as this and your GF is not going to be interrogated by anyone.

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I had a Last Will drafted a month ago by Siam Legal in Pattaya.

It was done and signed both in English and in Thai.

Beneficiary is my TGF. (She is quite happy about this - LOL).

Paid 10,000 baht.

I am very satisfied with the service.

The main asset are my two BKK bank accounts (where I maintain at least the stay permit extension min 800k).

They wanted that I list everything of value in my two rented studios (BKK and Pattaya).

I said NYET - just put "Everything in the studios" instead (I also have cash !!).

But I had to let them detail my modest motocy ownership book. Not important and useless if I buy a new one.

Before going to Siam Legal I had downloaded and filled out a Last Will in Thai and English from the Internet. Paid $25 by CC.

Quite well made but I finally decided that a Last Will done and signed by an established Law Office would be more easily accepted.

If paying 8,000 Baht more than you need to gives you a sense of security, all well and good.

A simple Will should cost no more than 2,000 Baht.

Remember, no one is trying to "catch you out" after you die. A sole beneficiary Will is usually uncomplicated - especially where only bank accounts are concerned. The bank would invariably help a Thai beneficiary through the process. Moveable chattels are irrelevant where there is only one beneficiary.

Just picture what happens after your death - no one is going to contest a simple bequest such as this and your GF is not going to be interrogated by anyone.

I seriously doubt that you will find a decent lawyer in Thailand to write a simple will for THB 2k, mine is a simple will in that says to leave everything to a single person, the cost for that was a discounted THB 5k and reports are that others are paying up to THB 10k for the same thing elsewhere.

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My other half went to the Amphur to find about leaving the will with them. To do that is possible only if I have a Yellow book! Have not heard that one before! I wonder if I go tomorrow and see a different offcier I will get a different answer. Funny old world here in it! Different localities have different views of the same thing.

I feel that contributors are currently moving towards the Lawyer route. In the UK a personal will correctly drawn up is prefectly acceptable, or, one with help from the "aged Groups" ( leaving them a donation). Here they dont seem to trust the locals to draw one up, most cant afford a lawyer, so seems like help yourself time for Thais.

When we go we wont be around to see if we have done the right thing with the will, we just hope we have. Seeing how Thai workman/businesses etc work especially with service after work why should I have any confidence in a Lawyer who cocks it up either? I have no idea if is his Thai is an exact translation of my will and I doubt if many of you out there do either you have to take a leap of faith, so at present I see no overriding evidence to make me change from my *very simple, small words that cannot be mis translated will*

Each to his own eh?

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I had a Last Will drafted a month ago by Siam Legal in Pattaya.

It was done and signed both in English and in Thai.

Beneficiary is my TGF. (She is quite happy about this - LOL).

Paid 10,000 baht.

I am very satisfied with the service.

The main asset are my two BKK bank accounts (where I maintain at least the stay permit extension min 800k).

They wanted that I list everything of value in my two rented studios (BKK and Pattaya).

I said NYET - just put "Everything in the studios" instead (I also have cash !!).

But I had to let them detail my modest motocy ownership book. Not important and useless if I buy a new one.

Before going to Siam Legal I had downloaded and filled out a Last Will in Thai and English from the Internet. Paid $25 by CC.

Quite well made but I finally decided that a Last Will done and signed by an established Law Office would be more easily accepted.

If paying 8,000 Baht more than you need to gives you a sense of security, all well and good.

A simple Will should cost no more than 2,000 Baht.

Remember, no one is trying to "catch you out" after you die. A sole beneficiary Will is usually uncomplicated - especially where only bank accounts are concerned. The bank would invariably help a Thai beneficiary through the process. Moveable chattels are irrelevant where there is only one beneficiary.

Just picture what happens after your death - no one is going to contest a simple bequest such as this and your GF is not going to be interrogated by anyone.

I seriously doubt that you will find a decent lawyer in Thailand to write a simple will for THB 2k, mine is a simple will in that says to leave everything to a single person, the cost for that was a discounted THB 5k and reports are that others are paying up to THB 10k for the same thing elsewhere.

Interesting that some people feel the need to hire a 'decent lawyer' for a simple Will.

Most Wills are indeed simple and be self-produced. Any that are not 'simple' should require specific legal advice. Talking to someone (not necessarily a lawyer, and especially not a Thai lawyer) can give the comfort of knowing that your intentions are correctly elucidated in the Will.

That can be done for 2,000 Baht.

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With refernce to my comments in 193.

My wife has spoken to the Bank, joint accounts are not going to be a problem but anything in my name eg for a retirement visa, 6 months or 1 year investments are more problematic. So we have come to this conclusion.

My will is simple and straightforward with no words that are ambiguous, it is in English, there is no advantage to getting it translated into Thai and causing mis-translations, so I will get 2 Thais who are over 21 but much younger than I to witness my signature and apply their Thai ID's. This will we will keep at home so we know where it is and where to find it when the time comes.

A doctor will have to pronounce me dead and I will be carted off to the temple for sacrifice.

The will along with the doctors note of death she will then take to the Court of Justice locally for a judge to verify which she will then be able to take to the bank to be actioned, this is how we now see the situation, we will of course call into the court in due course for verification. We are of the opinion from what we hear locally, from people who work at the court, that the judges are competent in English, will be able to understand the will papers and will and release the appropriate paperwork after seeing the doctors certificate and are satisfied I have departed.

Now I am sure that there are lot of people out there who will*think they know more" but its is only your opinion, we have ours and our way to procede with a difficult occassion in our lives, when I have comfirmation, one way or the other, I will let you know, but, I am in hospital for an eye operation on the 16th/17th and this visit to the courts might have to wait until after then, so be patient.

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The will along with the doctors note of death she will then take to the Court of Justice locally for a judge to verify which she will then be able to take to the bank to be actioned, this is how we now see the situation,

nong38 -- will be interesting to see what information you receive from your court visit. (Oh, did your banker say just get verification from the court, then come back -- or is that your interpretation?)

Several lawyers and law firms report that the court also has to approve the executor named in your Will, as well as give its authenticity stamp of approval.

The Executor has to be approved by the Thai court

it took 3 months to get it to court

now wait 2 weeks for the court to approve the Executor and another 2 weeks to hear any challenges to the Executor being appointed

That from article #33 in the following thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/740567-bank-account-upon-death/page-2

The thread also shows reports of bankers being more lenient than yours (i.e., no court stamp of approval) when it comes to releasing a bank account to the named beneficiary in the Will.

If you would, be sure and ask the court about having to approve the executor. Would love to hear the answer.

Cheers.

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Jim, what happened at the bank is what I glean from the questions I hoped were asked and the answers given then related to me.

The problem we all have here is that our partners are likely to be younger than us and we want to make things as easy as possible for them when we have kicked the bucket.

I had not heard or considered that the courts have to approve the executor, if that is the case then we really do need to consult a lawyer or we all have a big problem. Keeping my will simple I did not mention an executor, which I have in the UK. I assumed that my wife would just have to deal with everything, seemed no point in roping someone else into things and what if they died at an unfortunate time?

Since I last posted my wife has now suggested another way forward, which involves a friend from the Chinese community here to see if she has any thoughts and my wife has a pre-printed Thai will, I am hoping that maybe she will know of a lawyer in the Chinese/Thai community who she can suggest we talk to.

Clearly there can be problems if the wife died first, even if she left everything to me I can imagine some of the far flung debt ridden family circling and contesting asap.

It is probably a good time to think and record all the questions I need to ask our friend and see what she suggests, I dont have problem with my will apart from the executor position, but the procedure needs to be understood so ther eare no surprises.

Edited by nong38
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Originally my Will was Holograph, no witnesses, deposited with a Notary in Belgium and duly registered at the Belgian Central Will Registry. This Will named a sole Belgian beneficiary and listed only bank accounts in Belgium, Bangkok and Singapore. I'm a footloose sort of guy...

After some Google and Forum searching about Wills recently it occurred to me that the Belgian Notary would have a hard expensive time dealing with Thai and Singapore banks and jurisdictions.

I also wanted a beneficiary change and name my Pattaya TGF as sole inheritor for all accounts.

So I retained Singapore and Thai lawyers to draft the Wills. Cost 16000b and 10000b respectively. I had to fly to SIN to sign.

It did indeed struck me as strange that even though my TGF is sole beneficiary I still had to name an executor in both Wills. But such is the language of the Law and it was absolutely no problem since I could name my very own TGF beneficiary as executor too !!. So, for both Wills she has one copy for herself as beneficiary and one, identical, as executor of the estate - both duly signed.

As for the Belgian Will I wrote, again, a Holographic Will with no executor named. The Notary she'll have to send the Will to in order to get the Euros will be, in fact, the executor. Can be any Notary in Belgium (mine mentioned as preferred).

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Keeping my will simple I did not mention an executor, which I have in the UK. I assumed that my wife would just have to deal with everything, seemed no point in roping someone else into things and what if they died at an unfortunate time?

Nong, your wife can be both the executor and beneficiary. No third party required. Easy enough, I would think, to modify your Thai Will to reflect this.

But if you don't name an executor, then, yes, the Thai court will have to do this for you (per Thai CCC, Section 171x).

The referenced thread in #196, above, unfortunately gets into a cat fight over this court vs. executor (administrator) vetting process. But the Thai CCC seems to be clear enough on what it DOES say, namely, a Will requires a named executor, either appointed in the Will itself by the testator. Or absent this, by the court. And the Thai CCC also seems to be clear on what it DOESN'T say, namely, an executor named in the Will by the testator is required to be validated by the court (absent any third party contention of the named executor).

Sadly, some (many?) Wills prepared by law firms have added the verbiage "the named executor will be required to be approved by the court." Thus, even in the absence of being required by law, by being written into the Will, it now becomes a valid requirement -- since the executor is, under law, required to follow the instructions of the testator. Sigh.

So, if you're having a lawyer draft your Will, look out for this added phrase, as it is completely self-serving for the lawyer -- in that it now requires an unnecessary court visit for executor vetting -- with the attendant time and fees involved.

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I have submitted a question to a "Thai Lawyer* on this forum, asking for the proceedure when death occurs, with one or two other questions. It has to be vetted by the moderator so will just have to wait to see if it appears, I am hoping that what I have asked will answer a lot of our questions.

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Well no answer to my questions as yet from a lawyer and it seems to be slipping off the radar.

I will need to be on the lookout for opportunities, perhaps, as is usually the case, a chance meeting with someone. Maybe I can persuade my wife to take me for a visit to the local courts and get some answers, patience is a virtue my friends.

Edited by nong38
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On the ongoing subject of what happens after one's death re an amphur will and one's Thai bank accounts...

My wife and I had reason to stop by the Standard Chartered head branch in Sathorn today, and among other things, I inquired of my regular account rep there on what the bank would need from my wife/beneficiary in the wake of my eventual death.

Our account rep wasn't sure initially, so she went off to consult and returned with the following answer: Standard Chartered would not release the bank funds to my wife/beneficiary solely on the basis of a death certificate and Amphur executed will.

The account rep there said they would require the Amphur will and death certificate to be processed by the Thai Probate Court, before being willing to turn over the proceeds of the bank account (which for purposes of this discussion, is an account solely in my name, not a joint husband-wife account).

I didn't ask, and didn't think to ask at the time, whether their answer would be different for a joint husband and wife account, as I suspect the answer would be different. But because of the Thai Immigration rules on bank deposits for retirement extensions of stay and the 800,000 baht on deposit rule, those kinds of deposits typically are held only in the expat's name, and not usually as joint accounts.

Now, I should say as a caveat: that's one one bank rep at one location said on one day. Whether that same notion holds true at other branches and other banking companies here is probably a significant question, especially given the quite wide variation in how Thai banks handle policy issues.

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Well no answer to my questions as yet from a lawyer and it seems to be slipping off the radar.

I will need to be on the lookout for opportunities, perhaps, as is usually the case, a chance meeting with someone. Maybe I can persuade my wife to take me for a visit to the local courts and get some answers, patience is a virtue my friends.

There have been a couple recent items in the Ask the Lawyer forum on the subject of wills... including this one from Aug. 13...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/750412-what-to-do-after-making-a-will/#entry8238647

In it, the answer appears to be wrongly stating that Amphur wills can only be done in Thai language and that they must be written in front of the Amphur officer.

Making a will at the government department will be in Thai language only as it will be written in front of the district officer, this will is then stored at the district office until the event of your death where it will be released.

From my past conversations with our local Amphur wills officer and reading the Thai law on the subject, Thai law also allows so-called private wills at the Amphur wherein you come with your already prepared will document (in Thai, or Thai-English, as desired), and then that will is processed and sealed without the officer ever seeing or knowing the contents of the document.

Once again, I have reason to doubt the accuracy or completeness of the legal advice being given...

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Well no answer to my questions as yet from a lawyer and it seems to be slipping off the radar.

I will need to be on the lookout for opportunities, perhaps, as is usually the case, a chance meeting with someone. Maybe I can persuade my wife to take me for a visit to the local courts and get some answers, patience is a virtue my friends.

There have been a couple recent items in the Ask the Lawyer forum on the subject of wills... including this one from Aug. 13...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/750412-what-to-do-after-making-a-will/#entry8238647

In it, the answer appears to be wrongly stating that Amphur wills can only be done in Thai language and that they must be written in front of the Amphur officer.

Making a will at the government department will be in Thai language only as it will be written in front of the district officer, this will is then stored at the district office until the event of your death where it will be released.

From my past conversations with our local Amphur wills officer and reading the Thai law on the subject, Thai law also allows so-called private wills at the Amphur wherein you come with your already prepared will document (in Thai, or Thai-English, as desired), and then that will is processed and sealed without the officer ever seeing or knowing the contents of the document.

Once again, I have reason to doubt the accuracy or completeness of the legal advice being given...

The advice given is consistent with what I had heard - i.e. everything is done in Thai. That makes me feel uncomfortable.

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In the Thai legal world, naturally, it is the Thai language version of any document that will be given precedence over the English version.

However, private wills at the Amphur are specifically called out in Thai law, and their use was confirmed to use by the Amphur Wills officer at our local amphur in BKK. In fact, that individual noted to my wife and I that the "private will" approach is very often used by farangs, because they don't want the Amphur staff or anyone else to know the terms of their will, not unreasonably.

As for the language issue, it might well be true that the regular public amphur wills would need to be only in Thai, because the amphur officer and the Thai witnesses are having to read and understand what they are certifying.

However, the process is entirely different with private wills at the Amphur. The wills officer and any witnesses don't read or see the contents of the will and don't certify anything regarding the contents, which can be in Thai and English translation. They're only signing and certifying on the exterior of a sealed will envelope, with no idea of what kind of document is inside.

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Yesterday the 18th Aug 2014 the Court approved my being able to act as Administrator of the Will and now I have paperwork to go to the bank and access the deceased funds and then disperse them as per the Will.

There you have it.

From April to August 2014.

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Yesterday the 18th Aug 2014 the Court approved my being able to act as Administrator of the Will and now I have paperwork to go to the bank and access the deceased funds and then disperse them as per the Will.

There you have it.

And the bank in question required this? Or would they have accepted a valid (but not court vetted) Will? Or did you even ask the question of the bank manager before going thru the 10,000 baht court proceeding?

There you have -- what?

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I will still leave my will in English. As a Thai will not signanything in a language they do not understand, neither will I sign anything in Thai that I dont understand.

I will not go through the Amphue system either, looks like it could prseent more problems that it might solve.

I do have a police offficer round the corner and I will get the wife to talk to him about witnessing the will, all he has to do is witness that I am signing the document, he does not need to know or understand what is in it.

I am also hoping that the officer will be able to explain the proceedures of death and how they are dealt with, thinking a) about the body and B) death certificate going through the judicial system and authorizing the will. The timing of which I have to leave to the wife!

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