Thailand's Prostitution Image Is Embarrassing

[hopdafru]

Good weather + great culture = tourists. Poor people + pretty girls + tourists = prostitution.

Why be embarrassed about prostitution? I'm not embarrassed to be a programmer, it's what I do for a living. I don't like it. It's boring. But it's what I can make the most money doing. So I do something I dont like to make money.

There is very little difference.

Which one is legal?

Both. Nothing illegal in Thailand about working as a bargirl or a gogo dancer and sleeping with customers for money.

Actually if you provide sexual favours for money that is called prostitution and prostitution is illegal in Thailand.

technically, ie legally, it depends what you write on the invoice...

If the line says having sex: 1000 THB then it's illegal

If it says anything else it probably isn't (like paying for leaving, cleaning the bed/room/dishes, buying her underwear etc...

[brewsterbudgen]

Good weather + great culture = tourists. Poor people + pretty girls + tourists = prostitution.

Why be embarrassed about prostitution? I'm not embarrassed to be a programmer, it's what I do for a living. I don't like it. It's boring. But it's what I can make the most money doing. So I do something I dont like to make money.

There is very little difference.

Which one is legal?

Both. Nothing illegal in Thailand about working as a bargirl or a gogo dancer and sleeping with customers for money.

Actually if you provide sexual favours for money that is called prostitution and prostitution is illegal in Thailand.

It's too simplistic to say prostitution is illegal in Thailand. Paying money for sex between two consenting adults, as long as it's not conducted in a "promiscuous" manner, is not illegal.

[Jawnie]

How about Thai people using the sex industry?

Isn't it easier to blame the Farangs rather than to see the whole picture?

In my view us farangs are a bit to blame. We come here with a view "ahh well what harm can it do" "they come with me and I give them money, everyone is happy". "the girl looks happy"

What we don't realise is that this line of work (unless they get lucky and marry or go abroad) after years of doing it will more than likely end up with the girl being mentally and physically in bad shape. Years of having sex with different men, lying, drinking, smoking and then the biggest pyschological problem from years of earning alot of money too easily and for not much effort is never good for the mind. So by their mid 30s they have either been lucky and met their knight or thats it, career over. Now they are mentally and physically ruined, they cant ever go and work in a normal job because after years of getting maybe 30,000+ a month there is no way the mind can work 5 times longer for 5 times less the wage. So the only option is to have a baby girl with a Thai guy who will probably be lazy, not work and eventually leave. And then guess what the whole process starts again.

This is really the process that has been going on since the Vietnam war where most of this all started and wasn't put down ever since. Now Thailand has a generation of girls and women who are unable to break out of the cycle.

So all in all i think the blame is a mixture but ofcourse Isaan in history has always been more neglected by Bangkok so its no surprise I suppose.

As with alot of problems and as proved by the story above Thai people are always more bothered about the exposure of a problem rather than the problem itself. As we all know Thai peole are unable to think long term. The long term benfit to getting rid of prostitution would ofcourse be great but all the time this industry is making an immediate income then Thais will always endorse and allow.

Shame

Hogwash. at least 85% of prostitution in Thailand is a domestic exchange. It's their culture that's to blame. Foreigners did not start this, nor do foreigners account for enough economically to account for growth in the industry.

Not only are Thais 85% of the customers, but of the tourist to Thailand, 75% are from other Asian countries. Technically, that makes them farang, but farang usually implies white people from Europe or America.

The notion that prostitution in Thailand is fueled by white people from the West/Australia is false. It's just that nobody recognizes that many 'asian couples' they see around town are in fact a Japanese/Chinese/Korean/Phillipine man with his Thai prostitute/gf.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Jawnie

[BradinAsia]

You people are missing the point. The ONLY reason prostitution (and pollution, or anything bad) is here in Thailand is simply because of us foreigners. According to Thais, nothing bad was in Thailand until we came. We brought it with us. Please remember that.

Always nice to help a fellow poster with Thai history. "The ambassador writes in his memoirs about a brothel in the capital of Ayutthaya, which was home to some 600 women from different levels of society, including the daughters and wives of the court's noblemen."

Thailand 400 years ago. http://www.nationmul...le_30041864.php

Well, if we want to talk about history -- 400 years ago, Japanese men of the aristocracy

often preferred 12-15 year old boys. Poor families considered it a great a privilege when

a son was selected, feeling fortunate for him to get such a high-level job when the masses

were generally just struggling to survive.

By today's standards, such behavior is considered criminal and disgusting. But if you want

to talk about despicable, immoral and depraved people, look at the history of royal families

of Europe.

For the last 1,000 years, the royal families all across Europe have given their daughters in

marriage for purely political reasons. Until recent times. most European royals lacked any

real national loyalties, but focused their efforts on staying in power at all cost.

Mothers poisoning sons, sons poisoning fathers, uncles murdering infant nephews, etc etc.

After two years of studying European history I became so nauseated by it all -- I changed

my major to Asian Studies. Have never regretted that change.

Before we castigate the histories of other people (especially from a viewpoint of minimal

knowledge) it be best to learn a bit more about the skeletons in our own historical closets.

[ppmacready]

Wikipedia says only 20% of the work load is taken up by tourists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Thailand

And I'm happy to help em!

[Maggusoil]

What Thailand should be embarrassed about is the plethora of extremely unattractive older Foreign (white) men who proliferate here like rednecks with little subservient slave girls from poor families. The range of ugliness of these types of men living here is appalling.

And vice versa. I used to work with young male Thai university graduates. They would ask me in amazement why wealthy farangs would marry and be with Thai farm girls who were extremely ugly in the eyes of these Thai men. I had no real answer for them...

Oh no.... not ANOTHER farang worker feeling stigmatized whenever an 'educated' Thai co-worker pushes the "Isaan slappers are ugly" button?

Does anyone go beyond the skin deep thing here? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder sort of thing, whatever gets you through the night. How about someone who's company you really enjoy and with whom you have some mutual respect, or even one of a polyamorous network you have.

Personally I like little white fluffy maltese terriers, they really turn me on!! To each his own .. .

[Maggusoil]

You should try Australian politics. Plenty of prostitutes in that profession

[FarangTalk]

Mothers poisoning sons, sons poisoning fathers, uncles murdering infant nephews, etc etc.

After two years of studying European history I became so nauseated by it all -- I changed

my major to Asian Studies. Have never regretted that change.

*Ahem* Perhaps a close and more careful study of recent South East Asian Royal history is in order. Particularly this century.

[Unwisemonkey]

How about Thai people using the sex industry?

Isn't it easier to blame the Farangs rather than to see the whole picture?

In my view us farangs are a bit to blame. We come here with a view "ahh well what harm can it do" "they come with me and I give them money, everyone is happy". "the girl looks happy"

What we don't realise is that this line of work (unless they get lucky and marry or go abroad) after years of doing it will more than likely end up with the girl being mentally and physically in bad shape. Years of having sex with different men, lying, drinking, smoking and then the biggest pyschological problem from years of earning alot of money too easily and for not much effort is never good for the mind. So by their mid 30s they have either been lucky and met their knight or thats it, career over. Now they are mentally and physically ruined, they cant ever go and work in a normal job because after years of getting maybe 30,000+ a month there is no way the mind can work 5 times longer for 5 times less the wage. So the only option is to have a baby girl with a Thai guy who will probably be lazy, not work and eventually leave. And then guess what the whole process starts again.

This is really the process that has been going on since the Vietnam war where most of this all started and wasn't put down ever since. Now Thailand has a generation of girls and women who are unable to break out of the cycle.

So all in all i think the blame is a mixture but ofcourse Isaan in history has always been more neglected by Bangkok so its no surprise I suppose.

As with alot of problems and as proved by the story above Thai people are always more bothered about the exposure of a problem rather than the problem itself. As we all know Thai peole are unable to think long term. The long term benfit to getting rid of prostitution would ofcourse be great but all the time this industry is making an immediate income then Thais will always endorse and allow.

Shame

Hogwash. at least 85% of prostitution in Thailand is a domestic exchange. It's their culture that's to blame. Foreigners did not start this, nor do foreigners account for enough economically to account for growth in the industry.

I believe I said "a bit to blame"..................................... first sentence

Hope your not suggesting we are not to blame at all ?

When in Rome, do as the Romans do. No foreigners are not to blame one iota. It is their country, their culture, their responsibility. And that's how they want it every time they scream and cry and moan in their infantile manner "This is Thailand" to avoid accountability and responsibility. Any suggestion from a foreigner that is for the benefit of foreigners and Thai's alike is always met with violent opposition and treated with extreme prejudice. They rally around claims such as the one on the website we can not link to that Farangs cannot understand "Thainess" When we arguably understand it very very well.I know plenty of foreigners that have a vested interest in the positive direction of this country, but when you have a government that makes the path to residency so restrictive that cottage industries for visa runs sprout up, there is a problem. When a foreign man must support his Thai wife to get a marriage visa to stay in the country... when it is exactly the opposite in developed countries, there is a problem. These may sound like a trivial issues to cite but it's relative to the overall nature of exploitation and subsequently prostitution that this country and culture embraces wholeheartedly. The government exploits, prostitution exploits.Give foreigners living here who have a vested interest in the development of Thailand a channel to be part of the solution, then I'll gladly accept a portion of the blame. Until then, it is their crow pie to eat indivisibly.

[EyesWideOpen]

Mothers poisoning sons, sons poisoning fathers, uncles murdering infant nephews, etc etc.

After two years of studying European history I became so nauseated by it all -- I changed

my major to Asian Studies. Have never regretted that change.

*Ahem* Perhaps a close and more careful study of recent South East Asian Royal history is in order. Particularly this century.

Careful.........:-)

[tamvine]

Which country doesn't have the oldest profession? Compared to many other countries it is much safer in Thailand. However it is too open and certainly earning bad name.

[Berkshire]

Until then, it is their crow pie to eat indivisibly.

Don't worry, there's enough crow to go around.

One of the indirect result, i.e., collateral damage, to come from this "image problem" is that your Thai wife/GF will always be suspect. But if you don't care that people in the west automatically assume that your wife/GF is a hooker, then no worries.

[Thorgal]

You people are missing the point. The ONLY reason prostitution (and pollution, or anything bad) is here in Thailand is simply because of us foreigners. According to Thais, nothing bad was in Thailand until we came. We brought it with us. Please remember that.

Always nice to help a fellow poster with Thai history. "The ambassador writes in his memoirs about a brothel in the capital of Ayutthaya, which was home to some 600 women from different levels of society, including the daughters and wives of the court's noblemen."

Thailand 400 years ago. http://www.nationmul...le_30041864.php

Well, if we want to talk about history -- 400 years ago, Japanese men of the aristocracy

often preferred 12-15 year old boys. Poor families considered it a great a privilege when

a son was selected, feeling fortunate for him to get such a high-level job when the masses

were generally just struggling to survive.

By today's standards, such behavior is considered criminal and disgusting. But if you want

to talk about despicable, immoral and depraved people, look at the history of royal families

of Europe.

For the last 1,000 years, the royal families all across Europe have given their daughters in

marriage for purely political reasons. Until recent times. most European royals lacked any

real national loyalties, but focused their efforts on staying in power at all cost.

Mothers poisoning sons, sons poisoning fathers, uncles murdering infant nephews, etc etc.

After two years of studying European history I became so nauseated by it all -- I changed

my major to Asian Studies. Have never regretted that change.

Before we castigate the histories of other people (especially from a viewpoint of minimal

knowledge) it be best to learn a bit more about the skeletons in our own historical closets.

Allways interesting to learn from people who failed in studying their own history, read their minimal history knowledge.

And amazing that now they still act as 'would-be-experts' in Asean History...completely documented with Western books/literature...

Did you make any publication, essay, ... of your research ... ?

Bad start to make any career...and please, graduate and/or doctorate first.

< Foreign language removed, this is an English language forum >

Edited February 18, 2013 by metisdead

[chiangmaikelly]

You people are missing the point. The ONLY reason prostitution (and pollution, or anything bad) is here in Thailand is simply because of us foreigners. According to Thais, nothing bad was in Thailand until we came. We brought it with us. Please remember that.

Always nice to help a fellow poster with Thai history. "The ambassador writes in his memoirs about a brothel in the capital of Ayutthaya, which was home to some 600 women from different levels of society, including the daughters and wives of the court's noblemen."

Thailand 400 years ago. http://www.nationmul...le_30041864.php

Well, if we want to talk about history -- 400 years ago, Japanese men of the aristocracy

often preferred 12-15 year old boys. Poor families considered it a great a privilege when

a son was selected, feeling fortunate for him to get such a high-level job when the masses

were generally just struggling to survive.

By today's standards, such behavior is considered criminal and disgusting. But if you want

to talk about despicable, immoral and depraved people, look at the history of royal families

of Europe.

For the last 1,000 years, the royal families all across Europe have given their daughters in

marriage for purely political reasons. Until recent times. most European royals lacked any

real national loyalties, but focused their efforts on staying in power at all cost.

Mothers poisoning sons, sons poisoning fathers, uncles murdering infant nephews, etc etc.

After two years of studying European history I became so nauseated by it all -- I changed

my major to Asian Studies. Have never regretted that change.

Before we castigate the histories of other people (especially from a viewpoint of minimal

knowledge) it be best to learn a bit more about the skeletons in our own historical closets.

Allways interesting to learn from people who failed in studying their own history, read their minimal history knowledge.

And amazing that now they still act as 'would-be-experts' in Asean History...completely documented with Western books/literature...

Did you make any publication, essay, ... of your research ... ?

Bad start to make any career...and please, graduate and/or doctorate first.

I didn't fail in studying my own history. I am insulted that you would think such a thing. Go ahead ask me something..

[manarak]

Good weather + great culture = tourists. Poor people + pretty girls + tourists = prostitution.

Why be embarrassed about prostitution? I'm not embarrassed to be a programmer, it's what I do for a living. I don't like it. It's boring. But it's what I can make the most money doing. So I do something I dont like to make money.

There is very little difference.

Which one is legal?

Both. Nothing illegal in Thailand about working as a bargirl or a gogo dancer and sleeping with customers for money.

Actually if you provide sexual favours for money that is called prostitution and prostitution is illegal in Thailand.

Actually, no.

There is no law banning receiving or paying money in exchange for sex.

http://www.thaivisa....25#entry6032045

In short:

Prostitution is not illegal outside "prostitution establishments"

Solicitation is illegal under most circumstances.

Procuration, promotion of and profiting from prostitution of third parties is illegal.

Edited February 18, 2013 by manarak

[BradinAsia]

"Allways interesting to learn from people who failed in studying their own history, read their minimal history knowledge.

And amazing that now they still act as 'would-be-experts' in Asean History...completely documented with Western books/literature...

Did you make any publication, essay, ... of your research ... ?

Bad start to make any career...and please, graduate and/or doctorate first."

Hehehe... jump to unwarranted conclusions much?

Poor spelling, punctuation and grammar is a fairly reliable indicator of a lack of education.

If the shoe fits, wear it.

[eddie61]

It's too simplistic to say prostitution is illegal in Thailand. Paying money for sex between two consenting adults, as long as it's not conducted in a "promiscuous" manner, is not illegal.

I never pay for sex.... but I often leave a tip.

[chiangmaikelly]

"Allways interesting to learn from people who failed in studying their own history, read their minimal history knowledge.

And amazing that now they still act as 'would-be-experts' in Asean History...completely documented with Western books/literature...

Did you make any publication, essay, ... of your research ... ?

Bad start to make any career...and please, graduate and/or doctorate first."

Hehehe... jump to unwarranted conclusions much?

Poor spelling, punctuation and grammar is a fairly reliable indicator of a lack of education.

If the shoe fits, wear it.

I take it you don't read much Joyce.

Edited February 18, 2013 by chiangmaikelly

[endure]

Ok that's enough of the flaming please.

[Thorgal]

REPRESENTATIONAL PROBLEMS:

Thai prostitution is a representational problem. The exact nature of surrounding issues is unknown. What is known, is that sex-slavery is foremost an issue of poverty, and is run by politicians, business people, military generals, police chiefs and is supported by the World Bank, international airlines and hotel chains.

It is a cultural problem; an educational problem; a problem of political corruption; a problem of making the correct distinctions between sex-slaves and sex workers; a health problem; a problem of exploitation; a social problem; a problem of misdirected self-interests; a problem of carelessness; a problem of putting the economy before humanity. It is a problem that needs to be addressed both locally and internationally.

SURROUNDING ISSUES:

Prostitution is one of the oldest professions in the world, but that is not to say it is not a normal part of human social formation. So-called sex-work is prominent within sexually suppressed societies however, it is rare in societies that are otherwise sexually permissive. This difference illustrates that prostitution is not a universal social norm. Moreover, some experts argue that prostitution is an abnormal form of promiscuity that develops from strict governance of sexuality within a society.

Women who do not consider themselves sex-slaves resent organizations that deny them the right to make a living in the way they see fit. Some have argued that Western countries take a patronizing approach towards non-western women by ignoring sex-work as an issue of personal income and labor. Furthermore, placing all sex-workers into the same category, casting them as victims, denies them the chance of participating in the decision making process that affects their own future and does not respect for them as people who deserve positive rights.

Vigilantes have raided brothels in the past to rescue slaves but have not been aware of the fact that they put not only the lives of the sex-workers at risk but also their families. Many girls escape their rescuers for this reason, or because they did not consider themselves in need have being rescued in the first place. Some girls may even escape out of fear of being killed by brothel owners.

In Thailand, children are the property of their parents and it is culturally acceptable for them to do with them whatever they wish to protect their livelihoods. Thailand’s government celebrates the economic benefits of prostitution, developing a highly successful national plan to support its “sex-tourist industry”, despite its connections to child prostitution. Thailand’s current period of dramatic economic growth – labeled the “Asian Miracle” is reliant on the sex-tourist industry. The demand for new prostitutes has increased, resulting in the widespread recruitment of child prostitutes through debt peonage arrangements in small brothels.

Many Thai foundations claim to help the victims of child prostitution but merely coerce them into sweatshop work by subjecting them to arrest without warrant.

Evangelical Christian's, exploit the issue of sex slavery to grow their follower base and political strength. Their captors and their rescuers so heavily exploit these women and children and as such, the line between captors and rescuers has become increasingly blurry. Hence, the true voice and story of these girls is unheard. Self-styled US vigilantes have raided brothels in the past to rescue women, which resulted in gun battles and other disappointing results. For example, girls rescued in these raids and similar escape from their rescuers within the first 24 hours. 678 girls reported that Trafcord [an anti-trafficking NGO] continually interrogated them as if they were hardened criminals and are threatened their release will be delayed if they do not reveal the identity of their traffickers.

The Thai State government depresses agricultural prices, which enables landowners and loan sharks to exploit farmers and accumulate capital. This is because Thailand did not have a history of technological development or capital formation. The ruling class sought to specialize in sex-tourism to stimulate the accumulation of capital. The growth of the Thai economy is based on impoverishment of peasants and intensive exploitation of labor. Peasants are indebted, incomes plummet as prices decline, forcing many into low paid industrial and 'service' employment.

Since prostitution is illegal in Thailand it is difficult to estimate exactly how many girls are work in the sex tourist industry. However, the total estimate is around 2,000,000. 800,000 of which are teenagers and children.

Thanks for your nice objective and academic post.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Thorgal

[jcnbkk]

This is not just a 'tourist' problem. The Thais seem to ignore the 'domestic' problem on the assumption that foreigners don't know about it. Every city in Thailand has various centres where sex is readily available.

Karaoke clubs, massage entertainment centres, etc. in every city and town in Thailand - catering not to foreigners, but to local Thais of every class.

What Thais may be more concerned about is the reputation that could be gained if foreigners started frequenting places like Ratchada where most of these huge entertainment complexes, up till now geared to service mainly Thai businessmen, and owned by prominent Thai businessmen, police, army and dare I say possibly people related to the government.

Had dinner last night,nice restaurant in Ratchada, surrounded by well off Thais. Surrounding us, the giant lit up "massage-entertainment" complexes.

Area where I live, the girls are working the street, the bus stop. 2 meters away are the police and their little tables. No one bothers the other. The police aren't there for that, or even to help the tourists. They are there to catch only the falangs who drop litter or cigarette butts, and fine them 2k baht. Funny story, the first time I came here a friend pointed out the bus stop and the girls. I, being new, naively asked how do you know which ones are waiting for the bus. His answer, if they're watching down the street it's for the next bus. If they're watching the sidewalk its for the next customer. Duh... If it was only so easy to tell which are the girls.

Keep Bangkok beautiful..

[jcnbkk]

You should try Australian politics. Plenty of prostitutes in that profession

The moral conscious USA. Ten times the population, ten times the politicians, ten times the fun..

[Pimay1]

You should try Australian politics. Plenty of prostitutes in that profession

The moral conscious USA. Ten times the population, ten times the politicians, ten times the fun..

It depends on what IS, is. Fellow Americans will know what I am talking about. Edited February 19, 2013 by Pimay1

[morpheusatloppers]

Prostitution IS illegal in Thailand. And actual prostitution is less common than in most other countries.

All countries have a sex industry - and how they deal with them generally tells you a lot about those countries. Ranging from "organised" brothels, to ignoring the issue, to sweeping it under the carpet, to draconian bans.

But in Thailand, they have it right. "Good-time girls" are plentiful, but here is the difference between the Land Of Smiles and everywhere else: here, you pay for a girl's TIME - not her body.

Okay, it may be a fine distinction (sex will usually take place) but the difference in PRINCIPLE is EVERYTHING.

It is the "businessmen" behind the clubs and bars who are to blame for Thailand's reputation - for "sexing up" their premises. Thai bar-girls are modest and are as embarrassed as the complainers at the reputation this gives them.

[joepattaya1961]

Prostitution in Thailand........Huhh? Where?

[Kilgore Trout]

Prostitution IS illegal in Thailand. And actual prostitution is less common than in most other countries.

All countries have a sex industry - and how they deal with them generally tells you a lot about those countries. Ranging from "organised" brothels, to ignoring the issue, to sweeping it under the carpet, to draconian bans.

But in Thailand, they have it right. "Good-time girls" are plentiful, but here is the difference between the Land Of Smiles and everywhere else: here, you pay for a girl's TIME - not her body.

Okay, it may be a fine distinction (sex will usually take place) but the difference in PRINCIPLE is EVERYTHING.

It is the "businessmen" behind the clubs and bars who are to blame for Thailand's reputation - for "sexing up" their premises. Thai bar-girls are modest and are as embarrassed as the complainers at the reputation this gives them.

Gimme a break; it is what it is regardless of the label or branding

As Gertrude Stein once said when asked her thoughts on horticulture; "you can lead a whore to culture but you can't make her think"

[JLCrab]

Good one KT but it was Dorothy Parker when asked to use the word 'horticulture' in a sentence.

Edited February 19, 2013 by JLCrab

[Semper]

Thailand's Prostitution Image Is Embarrassing

The embarrasing part would be, that most of them are downright ugly.

[JLCrab]

The embarrassing part would be, that most of them are downright ugly.

Maybe so but they work on straight commission.

[Unwisemonkey]

Until then, it is their crow pie to eat indivisibly.

Don't worry, there's enough crow to go around.

One of the indirect result, i.e., collateral damage, to come from this "image problem" is that your Thai wife/GF will always be suspect. But if you don't care that people in the west automatically assume that your wife/GF is a hooker, then no worries.

That's more like force feeding. And you're 100% correct. Just another frustrating item on the agenda that marginalizes international families and their rights.