Anybody Else Considering A Move To Cambodia?

[SteeleJoe]

I find it difficult to support any country that until recently has barely stopped slaughtering its own citizens. Unlike its surrounding neighbours, Thailand has never done that.

That is, frankly, quite an ignorant comment.

Until recently? Barely stopped? Khmer Rouge stopped slaughtering people 2 decades ago. More to the point, why would you hold the whole country NOW to blame for their actions THEN - do you have no idea of what happened and the ratio of victim to villain?

As for Thailand and how it compares; first of all, what happened in Cambodia has rarely if ever happened anywhere (when one considers not just the deaths but everything that happened to that country; complete destruction of its society and much of it's culture and a whole country transformed into a prison camp) so the fact that such a thing has never happened in Thailand is not surprising - it has never happened anywhere. Secondly, Thailand has NOT been without its own repressive and murderous regimes. Leving aside the misdeeds of Thai governments in the 50s and 60s, if you can't forgive the entire country of Cambodia because a rogue element of its country turned it into some massive and evil experiment in the 70's, why do you forgive Thailand's government and military for their murder of unarmed students in the same period? Actions committed, in some cases, by people still in positions of authority and respect? Or for the death of untold numbers of peaceful demonstrators in in 1992?

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Edited February 27, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[bangkokburning]

I find it difficult to support any country that until recently has barely stopped slaughtering its own citizens. Unlike its surrounding neighbours, Thailand has never done that. I enjoy Chiang Mai because it has a very substantial western expat base. There is nowhere in the city that DOESN'T have someone who can't speak at least a little English. Chiang Mai is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but it covers most of what westerners want in a society... lots of accommodation, good medical, good dental, stable economy, reasonable and available merchandise, many places to eat, night life, fair transportation and it's easy to walk just about anywhere within an hour.

Thailand is hardly a posterchild for democracy. It has well its share of coups and blood in the streets. If recent memory does not serve, we could go back to 1991.

You might want to look up the Tak Bai incident.

Or before that, the 2200 plus extrajudicial executions of suspected drug dealers.

Or.... well, I'm too busy to do other's research.

Those are not auto-genocide

The only people on this planet who ever commit auto-genocide are the khmers

First, Rene123 did not specify, nor allude to, autogenocide.

Second, your statements are debatable, even amongst scholars, with whom neither of us probably can claim association. At least, I can't.

To make this sort of statement just shows you wholly do not comprehend that history.

Dont single out the Khmer - Nationalism is a powerful and angry driving force. It is our nature as humans to act in this manner. Not only is History replete, look at the rise of facism in the West currently.

Rene was not discussing anything complicated like genocide, his comments go to simple anarchy and mass murder. KR = killers n stuff = bad.

Edited February 27, 2013 by bangkokburning

[mackes]

I travelled around on motorbike a couple of years ago and besides Thailand I visited Cambodia and Laos.

Thailand is from my point of view excellent for Westerners with almost all product and service from the west

accessible to fair prices.

Laos is still very poor and have a long way to go, lacking many things and more expensive than Thailand for

foreigners, For me it would be impossible to live there despite a very interesting culture.

Cambodia is a disaster when it comes to infrastructure. The fact that it is not possible to rent a car in Phnom Pen

due to the many traffic accidents and bad roads says something about the country. They are still suffering from the

Red Khmer period where many of the intelectual and educated citizens was killed. No money in the world can cover

the gap there is and the lack of local educated people to make the country running in all aspects.

I would not move to Cambodia if not my aim was to work as a developer or volunteer.

However Phnom pen is a beautiful town to visit.

[rene123]

Rene was not discussing anything complicated like genocide, "HIS" comments go to simple anarchy and mass murder. KR = killers n stuff = bad.

"HER"

As I've said many times... you learn something new every day if you post something and wait for replies. AND, are willing to LISTEN AND LEARN from the replies.

I wasn't around at the time of the Kymer Rouge mass murders. I only heard about them second hand from people who were there at that time. There always will be conflicting view points.

[MrWorldwide]

So much ignorance in this thread - frightening.

1. The current big boss, Hun Sen, was a member of the Khmer Rouge. Up till 1991, he and the other 'warlords' were still fighting pitched battles on the streets of Pnomh Penh. Do you remember where you were in 1991 ? I do, and it sure as hell wasn't the middle of a civil war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hun_Sen#Political_career

2. If the Vietnamese hadn't invaded, the rest of the world (including Thailand) would have continued to stand by while the KR murdered their own countrymen. We stood by while they turned families against one another, tortured and murdered millions. Anyone who has seen the photos of their victims cant help but ask 'Why the <deleted> where we all so gutless ?' Fortunately, Pol Pot made the same mistake as the French, Americans and Chinese - he underestimated the Vietnamese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge#Number_of_deaths

3. When Pol Pot was finally ousted, he was a pariah in almost every civilised country on the planet, but one group of Generals offered him sanctuary. Ever been to the region around Trat ? Even more disturbing were the claims that the Thai Army may have continued to supply the Khmer Rouge with arms after they had been removed from power.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/12/19/world/pol-pot-thai-connection-special-report-big-threat-cambodia-thais-still-aid-khmer.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

I could do this all night, or folks here could spend a few minutes Googling each of the above events. It might cut down on ridiculous comments like 'the Thais never slaughter their own people'. I know how the mods will react if I start posting photos from '91, so I'll leave it there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_May_(1992)

The gloves didnt have to come off in 2006, but any suggestion that it wont happen in the future is wishful thinking.

[HeijoshinCool]

Rene was not discussing anything complicated like genocide, "HIS" comments go to simple anarchy and mass murder. KR = killers n stuff = bad.

"HER"

As I've said many times... you learn something new every day if you post something and wait for replies. AND, are willing to LISTEN AND LEARN from the replies.

I wasn't around at the time of the Kymer Rouge mass murders. I only heard about them second hand from people who were there at that time. There always will be conflicting view points.

What a breath of fresh air.

[HeijoshinCool]

So much ignorance in this thread - frightening.

1. The current big boss, Hun Sen, was a member of the Khmer Rouge. Up till 1991, he and the other 'warlords' were still fighting pitched battles on the streets of Pnomh Penh. Do you remember where you were in 1991 ? I do, and it sure as hell wasn't the middle of a civil war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hun_Sen#Political_career

2. If the Vietnamese hadn't invaded, the rest of the world (including Thailand) would have continued to stand by while the KR murdered their own countrymen. We stood by while they turned families against one another, tortured and murdered millions. Anyone who has seen the photos of their victims cant help but ask 'Why the <deleted> where we all so gutless ?' Fortunately, Pol Pot made the same mistake as the French, Americans and Chinese - he underestimated the Vietnamese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge#Number_of_deaths

3. When Pol Pot was finally ousted, he was a pariah in almost every civilised country on the planet, but one group of Generals offered him sanctuary. Ever been to the region around Trat ? Even more disturbing were the claims that the Thai Army may have continued to supply the Khmer Rouge with arms after they had been removed from power.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/12/19/world/pol-pot-thai-connection-special-report-big-threat-cambodia-thais-still-aid-khmer.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

I could do this all night, or folks here could spend a few minutes Googling each of the above events. It might cut down on ridiculous comments like 'the Thais never slaughter their own people'. I know how the mods will react if I start posting photos from '91, so I'll leave it there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_May_(1992)

The gloves didnt have to come off in 2006, but any suggestion that it wont happen in the future is wishful thinking.

Ah, Google, the Cliffs Notes of Thai Visa. Anyone can become an expert in their spare time.

[GreenSnapper]

With an average Cambodian farm girl, you can have a more intellectual conversation in better English than with an average iPhone carrying girl from Chula.

That's the situation after they have slaughtered most of their educated masses. And that shows a lot about the future of Thailand.

[poanoi]

The cambodians speak better english, that much is clear,

but remind me again why i would want an intellectual conversation now that i'm retired ?

[SteeleJoe]

With an average Cambodian farm girl, you can have a more intellectual conversation in better English than with an average iPhone carrying girl from Chula.

That's the situation after they have slaughtered most of their educated masses. And that shows a lot about the future of Thailand.

Even if that's not something of an exaggeration, your average "Cambodian farm girl" was born after said slaughter.

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[Paangjang]

With an average Cambodian farm girl, you can have a more intellectual conversation in better English than with an average iPhone carrying girl from Chula.

Or Yingluck

[poanoi]

Or a french

[MrWorldwide]

HJC, at least I'm prepared to provide a few links to back up my claims re Cambodia - that's more than most in this thread. When it comes to the 'Thais dont slaughter their own' claim , I actually exercised restraint. Picture someone banging their head against a wall - sheer ignorance on that scale simply cant go unanswered.

'instant expert' or not, I don't brush Cambodia's bloody past aside as easily as some here appear to. When a Cambodian woman tells me that she doesn't want to go in to the museum with the skulls because members of her family were murdered by the KR, I don't laugh in her face and proclaim 'Ha ! You couldn't possibly have been alive to see that !'. Can anyone here imagine what it must be like to grow up in a country where you know that the generation before you was decimated by their peers, some of which still walk the streets of PP ? So many smug Westerners in every corner of Asia, but most of us know sweet <deleted> all. Cambodians can still laugh and smile, despite the grinding poverty : our currencies drop by 10% and we are ready to open a vein ....

Edited February 28, 2013 by MrWorldwide

[JLCrab]

From Post #53 Thailand is finished.

Aw shucks. Things was just startin' to gel.

[SteeleJoe]

MrWorldwide, on 28 Feb 2013 - 17:08, said:

HJC, at least I'm prepared to provide a few links to back up my claims re Cambodia - that's more than most in this thread. When it comes to the 'Thais dont slaughter their own' claim , I actually exercised restraint. Picture someone banging their head against a wall - sheer ignorance on that scale simply cant go unanswered.

'instant expert' or not, I don't brush Cambodia's bloody past aside as easily as some here appear to. When a Cambodian woman tells me that she doesn't want to go in to the museum with the skulls because members of her family were murdered by the KR, I don't laugh in her face and proclaim 'Ha ! You couldn't possibly have been alive to see that !'. Can anyone here imagine what it must be like to grow up in a country where you know that the generation before you was decimated by their peers, some of which still walk the streets of PP ? So many smug Westerners in every corner of Asia, but most of us know sweet <deleted> all. Cambodians can still laugh and smile, despite the grinding poverty : our currencies drop by 10% and we are ready to open a vein ....

Not sure whom you are referring to when you speak of brushing aside the past or ignorance but speaking for myself, I've been studying Southeast Asia and specifically the wars here for over since even before I came here 30 years ago. I have read virtually everything available by Thai, Khmer, French, Chinese, Vietnamese and American scholars on the subject, have spoken to a fair few participants on all sides, and have written fairly extensively on it as well as been a research assistant for those more learned and accomplished (and well known)than I. That doesn't mean I know more than you or anyone else here, but with all due respect, just because you can post links to Wiki, you should perhaps not act quite so superior - intellectually or morally.

By the way, not sure it's saying much that when a Cambodian woman tells you that "she doesn't want to go in to the museum with the skulls because members of her family were murdered by the KR, (you) don't laugh in her face and proclaim 'Ha ! You couldn't possibly have been alive to see that !'"

I mean, what sort of imbecile would do that?! Is there anyone here who indicated they would?

Edited February 28, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[Thakkar]

<Snip>I have read virtually everything available by Thai, Khmer, French, Chinese, Vietnamese and American scholars on the subject, <snip>

Joe,

I'm always interested to learn more. I'd be most great foul if you could recommend a good book or two on the subject.

Thanks.

T

[Thakkar]

<snip>

I wasn't around at the time of the Kymer Rouge mass murders. I only heard about them second hand from people who were there at that time. There always will be conflicting view points.

I guess if you weren't around at the time, then you couldn't possibly know.

T

[poanoi]

The political frankenstein monster of an ideology that came crawling out of the jungle

was a result of the bombing carpets laid by B-52 in Cambodia, near the Vietnamese border.

Where noone was safe, and some were doomed, like the vietnamese & Chinese

[cardholder]

Another thread that is turning into a pissing contest .....

[SteeleJoe]

Another thread that is turning into a pissing contest .....

That really wasn't my intention but I can't blame you for saying that and I apologize for any role in such: I hesitated to get into it but I confess to feeling provoked by what I saw as an undeservedly superior and presumptuous post.

[SteeleJoe]

<Snip>I have read virtually everything available by Thai, Khmer, French, Chinese, Vietnamese and American scholars on the subject, <snip>

Joe,

I'm always interested to learn more. I'd be most great foul if you could recommend a good book or two on the subject.

Thanks.

T

T, I can suggest quite a few and if you can't find my initial suggestions, have already read them, or want more please let me know (PM if you prefer). A lot of information is to be found in Cambodian, Vietnamese and even Chinese archives and both published and unpublished reports and articles in periodicals and journals. But some of the best books rely heavily of these anyway. Among the best I have found are:

"After the War Was Over" by Elizabeth Becker. (Loads of detail about not only the era before and durig the revolution but she was one of the very few to report from inside Kampuchea after the revolution was won).

"The Gate" by Francois Bizot (A French expat in Cambodia who was very knowledgeable about the country, the language and culture who eventually became the only Farang to survive capture and imprisonment by the KR: but more than that he learned and relates very well a great deal about the nature of the regime and its mania)

A few books by Ben Kiernan ("The Pol Pot Regime" and others)and David Chandler ("Brother Number One""S-21" and others).

In fact, there's loads out and I do't recall reading any that weren't of some use (survivors accounts - relatively rare but very informative, though obviously harrowing and grim).

[SteeleJoe]

I should add that I've doe even more reading on Vietnam and there's a lot to be learned about Cambodia by a study of that war as without that context, one can't understand what happened in Cambodia (and it goes FAR beyond the predictable and oft repeated but simplistic and ultimately fallacious "US bombing caused the emergence of the KR" - despite what Chomsky et al would have you believe). After all, without North Vietnam, the KR would never have come to be what it was, let alone triumph.

[MrHammer]

I chalk Cambodja up to yet another example of the horrendous ideology of socialism/marxism/communism. The only difference is, that when normally reds only try to keep smart and capable people down by taxing them to death, then the Khmer Rogue just killed them outright. The goal of socialism always ends up that everyone should be equally poor. Mission accomplished Khmer Rogue.

But seriously, the lie that nazism is the biggest killer in humanity is just that - a lie. Pol Pot, Mao, Kim Jong Il, Gaddaffi, Hussein, Che Guevara, Castro, Stalin, Hoenecker - no ideology has as much blood on it's hand as socialism.

So next time some moron begins singing the praises of income quality distribution, be wary, because those people are the same who supported the mass murderes above.

[roamer]

<Snip>I have read virtually everything available by Thai, Khmer, French, Chinese, Vietnamese and American scholars on the subject, <snip>

Joe,

I'm always interested to learn more. I'd be most great foul if you could recommend a good book or two on the subject.

Thanks.

T

T, I can suggest quite a few and if you can't find my initial suggestions, have already read them, or want more please let me know (PM if you prefer). A lot of information is to be found in Cambodian, Vietnamese and even Chinese archives and both published and unpublished reports and articles in periodicals and journals. But some of the best books rely heavily of these anyway. Among the best I have found are:

"After the War Was Over" by Elizabeth Becker. (Loads of detail about not only the era before and durig the revolution but she was one of the very few to report from inside Kampuchea after the revolution was won).

"The Gate" by Francois Bizot (A French expat in Cambodia who was very knowledgeable about the country, the language and culture who eventually became the only Farang to survive capture and imprisonment by the KR: but more than that he learned and relates very well a great deal about the nature of the regime and its mania)

A few books by Ben Kiernan ("The Pol Pot Regime" and others)and David Chandler ("Brother Number One""S-21" and others).

In fact, there's loads out and I do't recall reading any that weren't of some use (survivors accounts - relatively rare but very informative, though obviously harrowing and grim).

River of Time by Jon Swain, available on Amazon

"Jon Swain's powerful and moving book goes further than anything else I have read towards explaining the appeal of Indo-China and its tragic conflicts... A brilliant and unsettling examination of the age-old bonds between death, beauty, violence and the imagination, which came together in Vietnam and nowhere else (J. G. Ballard Sunday Times )

'A romantic, evocative and touching book, the story of a young man's coming-of-age in the shocking but desperately alluring war zones of Cambodia and Vietnam' Sunday Telegraph"

A truly remarkable book.

[SteeleJoe]

<Snip>I have read virtually everything available by Thai, Khmer, French, Chinese, Vietnamese and American scholars on the subject, <snip>

Joe,

I'm always interested to learn more. I'd be most great foul if you could recommend a good book or two on the subject.

Thanks.

T

T, I can suggest quite a few and if you can't find my initial suggestions, have already read them, or want more please let me know (PM if you prefer). A lot of information is to be found in Cambodian, Vietnamese and even Chinese archives and both published and unpublished reports and articles in periodicals and journals. But some of the best books rely heavily of these anyway. Among the best I have found are:

"After the War Was Over" by Elizabeth Becker. (Loads of detail about not only the era before and durig the revolution but she was one of the very few to report from inside Kampuchea after the revolution was won).

"The Gate" by Francois Bizot (A French expat in Cambodia who was very knowledgeable about the country, the language and culture who eventually became the only Farang to survive capture and imprisonment by the KR: but more than that he learned and relates very well a great deal about the nature of the regime and its mania)

A few books by Ben Kiernan ("The Pol Pot Regime" and others)and David Chandler ("Brother Number One""S-21" and others).

In fact, there's loads out and I do't recall reading any that weren't of some use (survivors accounts - relatively rare but very informative, though obviously harrowing and grim).

River of Time by Jon Swain, available on Amazon

"Jon Swain's powerful and moving book goes further than anything else I have read towards explaining the appeal of Indo-China and its tragic conflicts... A brilliant and unsettling examination of the age-old bonds between death, beauty, violence and the imagination, which came together in Vietnam and nowhere else (J. G. Ballard [/size]Sunday Times )[/size]

'A romantic, evocative and touching book, the story of a young man's coming-of-age in the shocking but desperately alluring war zones of Cambodia and Vietnam' [/size]Sunday Telegraph"

A truly remarkable book.

Second that. Wonderful book.

And I've got a lot of time for Swain not just as writer but as a person*.

*(Many will remember him being portrayed in "Killing Fields" - a film that, like any movie "based on a true story" is not entirely true to facts and is quit manipulative but I can't help loving)

[Thakkar]

Thanks to both Roamer and Steeljoe. I'll hunt down the books.

BTW, the Sony e reader store often has better prices than the Amazon Kindle store.

Cheers.

T

[rene123]

Thakkar, on 28 Feb 2013 - 04:08, said:

rene123, on 27 Feb 2013 - 03:29, said:

<snip>

I wasn't around at the time of the Kymer Rouge mass murders. I only heard about them second hand from people who were there at that time. There always will be conflicting view points.

I guess if you weren't around at the time, then you couldn't possibly know.

T

Yes, and that is why I will happily listen to people who were actually there at the time. Two people can take a 2 week trip together and both will come back with entirely different stories about the adventure.

[MrWorldwide]

Go back and read some of bangkokburning's posts in this thread, but he isnt alone. The attitude that 'Cambodia has moved on - the KR are ancient history' seems to ignore certain realities. That said, I'm not Cambodian - to speak on their behalf is way beyond my pay grade.

I'm not looking to start a flame war here, but making sweeping statements re Cambodia without so much as Wikipedia entry seems awfully ambitious for mine.

[MrWorldwide]

I chalk Cambodja up to yet another example of the horrendous ideology of socialism/marxism/communism. The only difference is, that when normally reds only try to keep smart and capable people down by taxing them to death, then the Khmer Rogue just killed them outright. The goal of socialism always ends up that everyone should be equally poor. Mission accomplished Khmer Rogue.

But seriously, the lie that nazism is the biggest killer in humanity is just that - a lie. Pol Pot, Mao, Kim Jong Il, Gaddaffi, Hussein, Che Guevara, Castro, Stalin, Hoenecker - no ideology has as much blood on it's hand as socialism.

So next time some moron begins singing the praises of income quality distribution, be wary, because those people are the same who supported the mass murderes above.

Read the Wikipedia entry on the KR - of the 1-3 million people victims (no-one seems to know exactly how many), executions were eclipsed by:

- those who died from the wounds inflicted during torture

- being marched long distances into the rural areas

- famine, particularly when city people were expected to be able to fend for themselves growing crops when they clearly had no skills in this area

It's still genocide - no argument - but a long way from a 'quick death'. Add the spectre of watching your children starve to death or die from exposure and its as horrific as anything perpetrated by the Nazis.

Finally, I think its well accepted that Stalin was responsible for more deaths than Hitler, but how about Churchill and Roosevelt sitting down with Stalin to carve up Europe ? I guess the Poles were just in the wrong place at the wrong time(s) - 1939 and 1945 - and they paid the price for decades. The problem is less about ideology and more about power, but that's a debate for another thread.

[SteeleJoe]

Vietnam influence is huge in Cambodia so as Chinese.

The cable TV is Astro from Vietnam, a number of other services are also out of Vietnam.

Locals say that Hun Sen gives away land to Vietnam in return for some services, some even claim he has given away few hundred of km's if not more already.

Among them, the service of offering him refuge from death, destroying his enemies and ultimately making him an unassailable leader for life with almost unlimited power...

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