Thais Score Lowest In T O E F L

[jcnbkk]

They are still better at English than the average foreigner is at Thai. It's all very well mocking Thais for their lack of English skills, but many on here need to look at their lack of Thai skills.

Agreed. Guilty.

[chooka]

How about the lowest in the world. I recall trying to have a conversation in English with some Thai students proudly professing they have a major in English from one of their prestigious colleges. I needed a translator just to understand their attempt at English.

Quite true. My son's school has 5 farang teachers on staff and one who I have spoken to, an english guy says he is a qualified primary school teacher having obtained his qualifications in England. Apparently they are used as teachers assistants and not teachers. He was employed as an English teacher and is on the books as such but is not permitted to teach english and this is done by a Thai. On open days they are paraded before the parents of propective students. There is quite a large turnover of farang teachers and they only seem to last one term. His actual english teacher the Thai, cannot communicate with the farang parents as he english is very minimal.

[chooka]

They are still better at English than the average foreigner is at Thai. It's all very well mocking Thais for their lack of English skills, but many on here need to look at their lack of Thai skills.

Agreed. Guilty.

My thai is not the best either but I am not teaching thai to students and if I was then I could rightly be labeled in the same category as non english speaking Thais teaching english to students.

[Markaew]

They are still better at English than the average foreigner is at Thai. It's all very well mocking Thais for their lack of English skills, but many on here need to look at their lack of Thai skills.

This was an obvious rebuttal, but the difference is we have not been learning the Thai language in school for 16 years (university grad) for the purpose of communicating with our neighboring nations and advancing in the business community. In general, we are trying to learn Thai informally by learning from others. Big difference. I think we are doing quite well for only being exposed to a language typically for only a few years.

Also, we are trying our best to teach Thais to learn our language where the Thais do not want us to learn their language. They want to maintain an advantage. How many Thais speak English to you and are able to speak reasonably well? They hide their English to know what you are thinking/speaking and speak only Thai not because they are shy but to gain an advantage.

[FWIW]

"being a native english speaker alone does not automatically qualify anybody as an english language teacher. backpackers teaching for a short period - without having any qualification except being native english speakers - is worrying as well"

Totally agree. Some years back I worked in London as an IT consultant. My colleague, who is English, asked me when he should use 'effect' and 'affect'! So much for native speakers...

It may not "automatically qualify" a person, but being a native English speaker is a big PLUS. Backpackers could prove to be as good or better than trained teachers. Teaching, like parenting, is more of an innate skill than a learned skill. Growing up, I went to 11 schools in 13 years in 6 countries, and I know first hand how terrible some tenured teachers can be. More often, the un-certified teachers did the better job of engaging and challenging students - than oldsters who couldn't be fired because of seniority and strong unions.

The "reverse snobbery" associated with the teaching of English in Thailand has always mildly amused me. I have spent half an hour trying to think of a similar scenario in which some one would seriously promote the idea that someone with no training is better than someone with profesional training. I have failed. And yet this is still seriously promoted in places like here and the Ajarn board.

"I have this weird lump on my arm - I will go ask a bus driver what is is. He must know, after all - he has an arm too."

Nope. Does not seem to make sense for me.

Now. I am a professional in my field. I do have high academic qualifications. But do I think I could construct a teaching plan, know how to get across the concept of tenses, conditional clauses, explain grammar exceptions, get some one to understand the differences between verbs, adjectives and nouns?

Do I have knowlege of class management techniques, current educational theories, how to manage a class of 50 students?

No. No and no and no.

But this mythical backpacker does?? I don't buy it.

This backpacker may have some (may!) utility in conversational practice - but that is NOT the be all and end all of teaching!

Yes, students MAY be entirely satisfied (or engaged?) with the "dancing monkey" but does that involve real learning or real understanding that will serve them well? Again, I beg to differ.

The place to reform the teaching of English in Thailand is with reforming the teachers - whether they are Thai or foreign, and to do away once and for all with the idea that there is a "quick fix" solution.....

[jcnbkk]

And even many English people born in England don't have adequate English skills. On some inner city estates it's hard to even understand what some of the kids are saying, even though they are supposedly speaking English.

And agreed. In LA and other American cities "inner city" or "barrio" english is not only a second language, for some it's their only language.

Forget about verb tense...

"What it be like"

"You hungry?"

"Ya, but I aint hungry, hungry"

"You bitch a ho."

"Ya, but she aint a ho, ho."

I understand some Thais english mo better

[maidu]

On a flight, I was seated next to a young Frenchman, He told me he had been hired by Chulagong U to teach/lecture English. I was aghast. The guy spoke terrible English with an accent you could cut Bonbel cheese with. I had to ask him to repeat everything he said. Just another example of how Thai administrators who hire English teachers don't know shit from shinola. Similarly, I got to know a Finnish man who was working at one of Thailand's top U's. His job; lecturing in English. His handle on English was worse than the Frenchman's. It would have been comical if not for the fact that the Thai U administrators thought he was helping their students - and all because he was a farang with one or two educational certificates. Certification don't mean knitted ballwarmers if the person can't speak the language he/she is hired to teach.

[maidu]

And even many English people born in England don't have adequate English skills. On some inner city estates it's hard to even understand what some of the kids are saying, even though they are supposedly speaking English.

And agreed. In LA and other American cities "inner city" or "barrio" english is not only a second language, for some it's their only language.

Forget about verb tense...

"What it be like"

"You hungry?"

"Ya, but I aint hungry, hungry"

"You bitch a ho."

"Ya, but she aint a ho, ho."

I understand some Thais english mo better

Agreed. Very little slang or idioms are taught to Thai kids - even though slang and idioms comprise over half of conversational English in the real world.

[Markaew]

"being a native english speaker alone does not automatically qualify anybody as an english language teacher. backpackers teaching for a short period - without having any qualification except being native english speakers - is worrying as well"

Totally agree. Some years back I worked in London as an IT consultant. My colleague, who is English, asked me when he should use 'effect' and 'affect'! So much for native speakers...

It may not "automatically qualify" a person, but being a native English speaker is a big PLUS. Backpackers could prove to be as good or better than trained teachers. Teaching, like parenting, is more of an innate skill than a learned skill. Growing up, I went to 11 schools in 13 years in 6 countries, and I know first hand how terrible some tenured teachers can be. More often, the un-certified teachers did the better job of engaging and challenging students - than oldsters who couldn't be fired because of seniority and strong unions.

The "reverse snobbery" associated with the teaching of English in Thailand has always mildly amused me. I have spent half an hour trying to think of a similar scenario in which some one would seriously promote the idea that someone with no training is better than someone with profesional training. I have failed. And yet this is still seriously promoted in places like here and the Ajarn board.

"I have this weird lump on my arm - I will go ask a bus driver what is is. He must know, after all - he has an arm too."

Nope. Does not seem to make sense for me.

Now. I am a professional in my field. I do have high academic qualifications. But do I think I could construct a teaching plan, know how to get across the concept of tenses, conditional clauses, explain grammar exceptions, get some one to understand the differences between verbs, adjectives and nouns?

Do I have knowlege of class management techniques, current educational theories, how to manage a class of 50 students?

No. No and no and no.

But this mythical backpacker does?? I don't buy it.

This backpacker may have some (may!) utility in conversational practice - but that is NOT the be all and end all of teaching!

Yes, students MAY be entirely satisfied (or engaged?) with the "dancing monkey" but does that involve real learning or real understanding that will serve them well? Again, I beg to differ.

The place to reform the teaching of English in Thailand is with reforming the teachers - whether they are Thai or foreign, and to do away once and for all with the idea that there is a "quick fix" solution.....

I have teaching credentials as well and I agree about the backpackers. You need to remember that Thai schools really don't take English seriously and they prefer to get an expendable backpacker for a native teacher. The less credible the native speaker, the better they like it. It boosts their ego.

[MisterE]

A colleague at work was telling me how her 20 something year old sons friend just for a job teaching English in Thailand. Not sure what he was doing at uni but he has defiantly not been into teaching before. When you make it so easy for those who shouldn't be teaching then this all makes sense.

What exactly is so wrong with this? A teacher has to get their first experience from somewhere, why not in Thailand where it really can't get any worse than it already is? What harm could they possibly do when Thai English teachers can't even speak the language?

The best teachers have a gift and are just naturally good at it / born for it. Others, like me, have had to work hard at it.

[youngXpat]

How about the lowest in the world. I recall trying to have a conversation in English with some Thai students proudly professing they have a major in English from one of their prestigious colleges. I needed a translator just to understand their attempt at English.

Quite true. My son's school has 5 farang teachers on staff and one who I have spoken to, an english guy says he is a qualified primary school teacher having obtained his qualifications in England. Apparently they are used as teachers assistants and not teachers. He was employed as an English teacher and is on the books as such but is not permitted to teach english and this is done by a Thai. On open days they are paraded before the parents of propective students. There is quite a large turnover of farang teachers and they only seem to last one term. His actual english teacher the Thai, cannot communicate with the farang parents as he english is very minimal.

Unfortunately this seems to be the case the length and breadth of the country

[MisterE]

The problem is Thai schools like to boast about the native speakers on their staff but the Thai teachers do 90% of the English classes. Also, the schools have a horrible attitude toward the foreign teachers. Foreign teachers are window dressing to bring in the students. Bait and switch.

I'm out of positive votes for the day but I could not agree more. The treatment of foreign teacher here by Thai school admin is appalling yet, they stick them up at the front of every assembly and in photos on their websites to show off their white faced teachers. The white face teachers bring in the kids whose parents pay the big bucks then, are shat on in the staff room in ways that incompetent Thai teachers would never be treated.

Don't even get me started on staff room politics where jealous Thai and Filipino teachers take every opportunity to undermine their foreign colleagues and make them look bad to the bosses. All of this for their own self interest and perceived personal gain and all to the detriment of the students' welfare and education.

[IAMSOBAD]

Sorry to be blunt...but, people who encourage Thais to say CENTRANNNN and MICHANNNN and dont know an L from an R and think its cute are also a problem.

Farang sit idly while their Thai lovers speak English like a 5 year old. I never hear people correct them.

Remember when FOX channel arrived in Thailand and they showed hundreds of Thais saying FOX as Fuk and Fuuuk.

Education starts in the home and then in school then in everyday life.

[ragamuffin]

A colleague at work was telling me how her 20 something year old sons friend just for a job teaching English in Thailand. Not sure what he was doing at uni but he has defiantly not been into teaching before. When you make it so easy for those who shouldn't be teaching then this all makes sense.

What exactly is so wrong with this? A teacher has to get their first experience from somewhere, why not in Thailand where it really can't get any worse than it already is? What harm could they possibly do when Thai English teachers can't even speak the language?

The best teachers have a gift and are just naturally good at it / born for it. Others, like me, have had to work hard at it.

Teaching is a profession with a lot of background knowledge in learning psychology, teaching methodology etc. involved if you want to do it properly and successfully. Being good at handling students, empathy etc. are preconditions for good teachers anyway but by far not sufficient.

To be honest, I find this "anyone can teach, it's a gift" attitude naive and dangerous. What do you think do teachers to-be learn at uni?

[youngXpat]

@ Ragamuffin 'What do you think do teachers to-be learn at uni?'

In Thailand they learn how to wear the the brightest, garish silk uniforms known to man! Strut around like a peacock and learn the importance of self-importance!!!

[MisterE]

I am an American and a native speaker. By the way I don't know about "affect or effect" and never use "whom" except in a letter beginning "To whom it may concern". Until a Thai English teacher told me there are 12 tenses, I thought there were 3; yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

The purpose of language is communication. Unfortunately most of the children who finish high school in Thailand can't communicate in English. However, they do know grammar and structure.

The reason for this is that you are not taught the grammar rules of your native language. It's not necessary because you learn it by immersion.

Try to get a native Thai speaker or teacher to explain the grammar rules of Thai to you. For example, ask them why vowels are often written before consonants when they are not pronounced in that order. The word for fire ไฟ (fie) is spelled sara-I for-fun but, it's pronounced exactly the opposite. The answer you will receive back is a blank stare because they can not admit they don't understand the grammar of their own language. That would be a loss of face for them even though it's perfectly understandable because they learned their language through immersion.

[MisterE]

A colleague at work was telling me how her 20 something year old sons friend just for a job teaching English in Thailand. Not sure what he was doing at uni but he has defiantly not been into teaching before. When you make it so easy for those who shouldn't be teaching then this all makes sense.

What exactly is so wrong with this? A teacher has to get their first experience from somewhere, why not in Thailand where it really can't get any worse than it already is? What harm could they possibly do when Thai English teachers can't even speak the language?

The best teachers have a gift and are just naturally good at it / born for it. Others, like me, have had to work hard at it.

Teaching is a profession with a lot of background knowledge in learning psychology, teaching methodology etc. involved if you want to do it properly and successfully. Being good at handling students, empathy etc. are preconditions for good teachers anyway but by far not sufficient.

To be honest, I find this "anyone can teach, it's a gift" attitude naive and dangerous. What do you think do teachers to-be learn at uni?

I never said anyone can teach, I said some have a gift and are naturally good at it while others, like me, have to work hard at it. And yes, some don't belong in a classroom at all. Please do read my replies more carefully. Thanks.

[ragamuffin]

@ Ragamuffin 'What do you think do teachers to-be learn at uni?'

In Thailand they learn how to wear the the brightest, garish silk uniforms known to man! Strut around like a peacock and learn the importance of self-importance!!!

This is definitely not true for Chula's TEFL programme.

[youngXpat]

I am an American and a native speaker. By the way I don't know about "affect or effect" and never use "whom" except in a letter beginning "To whom it may concern". Until a Thai English teacher told me there are 12 tenses, I thought there were 3; yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

The purpose of language is communication. Unfortunately most of the children who finish high school in Thailand can't communicate in English. However, they do know grammar and structure.

The reason for this is that you are not taught the grammar rules of your native language. It's not necessary because you learn it by immersion.

Try to get a native Thai speaker or teacher to explain the grammar rules of Thai to you. For example, ask them why vowels are often written before consonants when they are not pronounced in that order. The word for fire ไฟ (fie) is spelled sara-I for-fun but, it's pronounced exactly the opposite. The answer you will receive back is a blank stare because they can not admit they don't understand the grammar of their own language. That would be a loss of face for them even though it's perfectly understandable because they learned their language through immersion.

Isn't it the norm a natives grammar skills are not as good as a non-native?

[MisterE]

The reason for this is that textbooks are not chosen based on what is best for the students. The decision is based on how big the kickback from the publishing distributors the school (director) will receive for placing the order. Profit and especially 'tea money' come first, everything else takes a back seat to that.

Just another reason for life imprisonment, and a 5,000,000 baht fine to the family of any official caught taking bribes of this sort. How long would this practice continue? Officials are getting executed in China, imprisoned in Malaysia, and Indonesia, and building huge villas in Thailand.

TiT

[ragamuffin]

A colleague at work was telling me how her 20 something year old sons friend just for a job teaching English in Thailand. Not sure what he was doing at uni but he has defiantly not been into teaching before. When you make it so easy for those who shouldn't be teaching then this all makes sense.

What exactly is so wrong with this? A teacher has to get their first experience from somewhere, why not in Thailand where it really can't get any worse than it already is? What harm could they possibly do when Thai English teachers can't even speak the language?

The best teachers have a gift and are just naturally good at it / born for it. Others, like me, have had to work hard at it.

Teaching is a profession with a lot of background knowledge in learning psychology, teaching methodology etc. involved if you want to do it properly and successfully. Being good at handling students, empathy etc. are preconditions for good teachers anyway but by far not sufficient.

To be honest, I find this "anyone can teach, it's a gift" attitude naive and dangerous. What do you think do teachers to-be learn at uni?

I never said anyone can teach, I said some have a gift and are naturally good at it while others, like me, have to work hard at it. And yes, some don't belong in a classroom at all. Please do read my replies more carefully. Thanks.

What about the professional knowledge I mentioned? Being a native speaker is no qualification. What do these people know about teaching and their language, problems learners might have with it, phonetics, learner styles, assessment?

[ragamuffin]

I am an American and a native speaker. By the way I don't know about "affect or effect" and never use "whom" except in a letter beginning "To whom it may concern". Until a Thai English teacher told me there are 12 tenses, I thought there were 3; yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

The purpose of language is communication. Unfortunately most of the children who finish high school in Thailand can't communicate in English. However, they do know grammar and structure.

The reason for this is that you are not taught the grammar rules of your native language. It's not necessary because you learn it by immersion.

Try to get a native Thai speaker or teacher to explain the grammar rules of Thai to you. For example, ask them why vowels are often written before consonants when they are not pronounced in that order. The word for fire ไฟ (fie) is spelled sara-I for-fun but, it's pronounced exactly the opposite. The answer you will receive back is a blank stare because they can not admit they don't understand the grammar of their own language. That would be a loss of face for them even though it's perfectly understandable because they learned their language through immersion.

Isn't it the norm a natives grammar skills are not as good as a non-native?

The problem is awareness of structures and rules because the language was acquired and not "learned".

I would never dare teaching my mother tongue because I simply lack the professional background. I might be good at speaking it, that's it.

[MisterE]

I am an American and a native speaker. By the way I don't know about "affect or effect" and never use "whom" except in a letter beginning "To whom it may concern". Until a Thai English teacher told me there are 12 tenses, I thought there were 3; yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

The purpose of language is communication. Unfortunately most of the children who finish high school in Thailand can't communicate in English. However, they do know grammar and structure.

The reason for this is that you are not taught the grammar rules of your native language. It's not necessary because you learn it by immersion.

Try to get a native Thai speaker or teacher to explain the grammar rules of Thai to you. For example, ask them why vowels are often written before consonants when they are not pronounced in that order. The word for fire ไฟ (fie) is spelled sara-I for-fun but, it's pronounced exactly the opposite. The answer you will receive back is a blank stare because they can not admit they don't understand the grammar of their own language. That would be a loss of face for them even though it's perfectly understandable because they learned their language through immersion.

Isn't it the norm a natives grammar skills are not as good as a non-native?

Yes, Thais are experts in English grammar but can't speak the language. Foreigners with an interest in learning Thai do learn some Thai grammar, more than Thais do, and can speak some of the language.

This is not a Thailand specific problem, it's a natural outcome from the way first languages are acquired, by immersion. Natives, unless they study their native language at university, usually have no clue about the grammar rules of their first, native, language.

[MisterE]

They are still better at English than the average foreigner is at Thai. It's all very well mocking Thais for their lack of English skills, but many on here need to look at their lack of Thai skills.

Speak for yourself, I constantly receive praise from Thais for my command of their language and there are plenty of expats on this forum who, for all intents and purposes, could be considered fluent.

I have zero respect for expats who can't even be bothered to learn enough of the language in the country they live in to get by. How would you treat an immigrant in your home country who has none or very low proficiency in the native language of your country?

I could not hire several good construction contractors in the US because their crew foremen were all Mexican and their command of English was not up to par for me to communicate effectively with them.

I have a feeling that you have very little exposure to Thai teachers of English.

Edited March 1, 2013 by MisterE

[MisterE]

The only way to quickly improve the situation is for the government to through a lot more money into english programs at all levels of formal education, and paying foreign (qualified) teachers a decent salary to teach here. Waiting until university to teach academic english is too late in my book.

I think you mean "throw" not "through" but, anyways, you are right. It will never happen of course because an educated population would start asking questions and challenging the powers that be e.g. the Bangkok elite.

[MisterE]

I would have thought Thai students were WORSE than this. The stupid systems the Government has for people who ACTAULLY speak english is terrible. You have to LEAVE thailand to get a visa for a few months to come back and TEACH THais english. Then the money you earn you use agaoin to leave the country to get another Vidsa to come back. this is the case for most people I speak to or they teach ILLEGALLY on retirement visas. getting a proper work visa is hard because the incentive to be paid a low wage is not really there.

Sorry but I have to correct you on this. It's perfectly legal to work on a retirement visa if you obtain a work permit. A visa is permission to stay in the country, a work permit is permission to work. I know plenty of people on "O" visas based on marriage or retirement who have work permits and work and pay taxes legally in Thailand. There is no such thing as a "work visa." Most people are confused about this because they need a visa from the school and that is always a Non-Imm "B" business visa. But, if you already have a Non-Imm "O" visa all you need is the work permit. In fact, this is the desired situation because the school does not have you by the balls by controlling your visa. If you have an "O" visa the extension of stay is not based on your work permit and if you want to leave a school you just turn in your work permit and go about your life as usual.

[Tywais]

I would have thought Thai students were WORSE than this. The stupid systems the Government has for people who ACTAULLY speak english is terrible. You have to LEAVE thailand to get a visa for a few months to come back and TEACH THais english. Then the money you earn you use agaoin to leave the country to get another Vidsa to come back. this is the case for most people I speak to or they teach ILLEGALLY on retirement visas. getting a proper work visa is hard because the incentive to be paid a low wage is not really there.

Sorry but I have to correct you on this. It's perfectly legal to work on a retirement visa if you obtain a work permit.

There have only been very rare cases of that being approved (retirement). I believe the permission to stay is even stamped 'no work allowed'. WP with marriage extension though is fully allowed. Actually there also is no Retirement Visa per se, it is referred to as Non-Immigrant Visa “O-A” (Long Stay) Extension

Quoting Siam Legal:

Restrictions on Your Retirement Visa

The retirement once

approved allows you to stay in Thailand for one year. You are not

allowed to have employment while on this type of visa. Also you must

report to Immigration every 90 days to verify your current address.

Please ensure that you obtain a Re Entry Permit at Thai Immigration

prior to leaving Thailand for any period of time.

[youngXpat]

The only way to quickly improve the situation is for the government to through a lot more money into english programs at all levels of formal education, and paying foreign (qualified) teachers a decent salary to teach here. Waiting until university to teach academic english is too late in my book.

I think you mean "throw" not "through" but, anyways, you are right. It will never happen of course because an educated population would start asking questions and challenging the powers that be e.g. the Bangkok elite.

Challenging the powers that be would take some initiative, knowledge and balls! Nobody wants the self obsessed 'poo yais' to lose face cos this is what they have been spoon fed since waist height.

[wolfmanjack]

Many retirees from English speaking countries would embrace teaching if it was allowed.

There are between 3 to 6 million long term foreign residents (depending on source), yet they cannot be used to help teach.

Why do you think career driving lorries/building houses/running a business or whatever would enable one to TEACH English?

You make the same mistake that the Thais seem to make. A native ability to speak a language does not mean that one can teach that language in any meaningful sense.

At least they would be able to speak the language they are teaching. Becoming a good teacher in Thailand is on the job training for the most part. As I said in my previous post, some of the best teachers I have ever met in this country had no formal training in education when they started. They understood Thai culture and found out they had a knack for teaching. Some just have the gift, others like me have to work hard at it.

It really can not get any worse than it already is so what's the harm in trying?

I agree IF and Only IF the person was able to be understood when speaking English. I have spoken with many people from the southern USA and from the UK that I had to ask them to repeat themselves several times before i could understand what they have said. Someone like this would do more harm than good.

Retirees with an easily understandable accent teaching English would at the very least give the students exposure to spoken English which they are not getting now. I know 4 different Thai English teachers here and only one can converse in English. The only reason she can converse in English is she has spent several years in the USA and Canada as a nanny after she graduated with a degree in English from a Thai university.

[wolfmanjack]

Sorry to be blunt...but, people who encourage Thais to say CENTRANNNN and MICHANNNN and dont know an L from an R and think its cute are also a problem.

Farang sit idly while their Thai lovers speak English like a 5 year old. I never hear people correct them.

Remember when FOX channel arrived in Thailand and they showed hundreds of Thais saying FOX as Fuk and Fuuuk.

Education starts in the home and then in school then in everyday life.

My wife speaks fairly decent English but when I do correct her she gets angry and shoots back at me that i do not speak Thai perfectly either so I gave up trying to help her. On the flip side I have to have my kids help me with my Thai pronunciation because my wife won't do it.