How Corrupt Is Thailand, Your Perception.

[Rosco911]

We all know corruption is not good. But you can't have it both ways. When you get caught for a minor offence here it cost 200 THB. Back home is a different story so I can live with a little corruption.

[SteeleJoe]

"Some truth to this assessment. In the US the political system is completely corrupt. Every politician at the national level is a bought and paid for whore, including blundering barry (barack). The one area which is refreshing is the relative lack of corruption with the beat cops. I am sure there is alot of police corruption, but it is rare to buy your way out of a traffic ticket! "

I have a few minutes (before I meet with some corrupt people!)

First of all I'm not sure why people feel compelled to point out that corruption exists elsewhere even if it happens to be as bad or worse. Anyone who thinks that there is a place with NO corruption, or that developed and reasonably democratic countries (like the US) don't have corruption is an ignorant fool.

Secondly, I'm not interested in trying to argue whose is worse or the degree which it exists in the US or elsewhere - to me there is plenty of evidence for my view but the argument is often going to be a matter of emotion, prejudices and politics so I think I'll pass.

But I will point to an objective and significant difference: in the US* if it can be proven that a politician has become vastly wealthy through his office or a cop has become wealthy through his job, it would be a scandal and people would be outraged and there would be SOME sort of repercussion (social opprobrium at the bare minimum).

Here it is taken for granted as the norm - because it is. And there will be no repercussions.

*EDIT TO ADD: I use the US only as an example. There are many countries - some of them much less corrupt than the US - of which same things could be said.

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Edited March 1, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[bigbamboo]

There are two kinds of corruption in Thailand (and most other Asian countries too come to that).

First there is the acceptable kind, for example when a cop lets you off a driving offence with a smaller fine no questions asked, no paperwork done. Everybody wins.

Then there is the unacceptable kind where a small number of excessively greedy trough feeders (politicians and the like) benefit hugely to the detriment of the people as a whole and nearly everybody loses.

[SteeleJoe]

Its moderately corrupt in certain sectors, very corrupt in others, and less corrupt in others. Many shades of gray here - and there are people who are not corrupt, but if spend most of your time on Walking Street in Pattaya, or Patpong or Nana in Bangkok, you aren't likely to find incorruptible folks easily.

And if like me you haven't been in those places for many, many years?

(I wonder why you felt the need to add that - care to explain?)

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Edited March 1, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[Unwisemonkey]

Corruption is a mixed bag. It's like that Chinese story about never knowing what a blessing is. When I first arrived with my Thai wife she and her family were gung-ho on getting our kids added to the house registration and Thai citizenship. The amphur employee tried fleecing us a ridiculous amount of money so they gave up, even though the children are entitled to Thai citizenship through their mother. So when we split I thanked my lucky stars because now she can't get them a Thai passport, and play modus vinidictive all over the ASEAN union.

This doesn't mean I approve of it, but on the whole I've been able to avoid it, and haven't experienced any of the institutionalization corruption with that one exception.

[SteeleJoe]

There are two kinds of corruption in Thailand (and most other Asian countries too come to that).

First there is the acceptable kind, for example when a cop lets you off a driving offence with a smaller fine no questions asked, no paperwork done. Everybody wins.

Then there is the unacceptable kind where a small number of excessively greedy trough feeders (politicians and the like) benefit hugely to the detriment of the people as a whole and nearly everybody loses.

I'm sorry if I'm too dumb to tell but...are you being ironic?

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[snooky]

HAHAHA

All those posts and no knowledge of some of the oldest acronyms around:

SNAFU - Situation Normal All F-----d Up

FUBAR - F----d Up Beyond All Repair (Reasonably close)

[wilcopops]

Its moderately corrupt in certain sectors, very corrupt in others, and less corrupt in others. Many shades of gray here - and there are people who are not corrupt, but if spend most of your time on Walking Street in Pattaya, or Patpong or Nana in Bangkok, you aren't likely to find incorruptible folks easily.

If you spend your time in the corridors of power in Bangkok you'll much more likely to meet even more!

[Businessman]

How corrupt is Thailand? Corrupt to the core of its moral fiber.

[wilcopops]

There are two kinds of corruption in Thailand (and most other Asian countries too come to that).

First there is the acceptable kind, for example when a cop lets you off a driving offence with a smaller fine no questions asked, no paperwork done. Everybody wins.

Then there is the unacceptable kind where a small number of excessively greedy trough feeders (politicians and the like) benefit hugely to the detriment of the people as a whole and nearly everybody loses.

I'm sorry if I'm too dumb to tell but...are you being ironic?

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The post above (big bamboo) is a fine example of how even foreigners just don't geddit!

[KED]

I just wish the media would do more investigative reporting on corruption. If a few grass-root organizations would form and expose the corruption - then at least it would be more difficult to continue the fleecing of Thailand. Today, there are few worries about being caught or prosecuted, so on every level from police to government officials have no hesitation to demand bribes or kickbacks.

[chiangmaikelly]

To be fair to JurgenG, the question was not "Is corruption a bad thing", or "What's wrong with corruption?"; his question was "How corrupt is Thailand".

Speaking from my own experience, I would say

Much more corrupt than Hong Kong or Singapore.

More corrupt than Australia.

Slightly more corrupt than Malaysia

I have not done enough work in the Philippines, Vietnam, Taiwan, Korea, China or India to draw a reliable comparison.

From gossip and newspapers and fictional accounts, much less corrupt than many African countries.

SC

88 out of 174.

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2012/results/

[a99az]

ON a level of 1 to 10, I would rate it an 11. Morocco is a 12 but it's cheaper.

[StreetCowboy]

To be fair to JurgenG, the question was not "Is corruption a bad thing", or "What's wrong with corruption?"; his question was "How corrupt is Thailand".

Speaking from my own experience, I would say

Much more corrupt than Hong Kong or Singapore.

More corrupt than Australia.

Slightly more corrupt than Malaysia

I have not done enough work in the Philippines, Vietnam, Taiwan, Korea, China or India to draw a reliable comparison.

From gossip and newspapers and fictional accounts, much less corrupt than many African countries.

SC

88 out of 174.

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2012/results/

That seems like a pretty accurate and reliable survey, if your criterion for accuracy and reliability is "corresponds with my own opinion"

SC

[drdoom6996]

FUBAR / SNAFU

Same

[wilcopops]

One aspect of corruption in Thailand is that it is seldom exposed or dealt with effectively.

corruption exists worldwide to one extent or another but in many countries it has to contend with laws that are enforced and a legal system that clearly defines corruption.........those corrupt officials in Thailand - high or low - are simply ignored for the most part or get away with ridiculously light sentencing afterwards.

Edited March 1, 2013 by wilcopops

[TechnikaIII]

In Thailand it (corruption) is endemic and visible, and most accept that it happens. Very important is the "who you know" over "what you know" phenomenon, from when it comes to getting big business deals through, all the way down to getting response from the local police chief in a small town in dealing with your reporting of a minor theft. At the top, Thailand is 'owned' by a small number clans, and you need to know who is connected with whom. With the local police chief, if you've had a problem, such as the theft of a bit of money, or a mobile, and you can't get the policeman to take interest, it helps to be the friend of the owner of the garage where he gets his motor bike serviced. ( ;-) )

Elephant poaching: The prime culprit has been the head of the Thai Department of National Parks, who just happens to be a good mate of Thaksin Shinawatra. Therefor Yingluk Shinawatra will never allow meaningful prosecution, and the elephant poaching will continue, along with the harassment of all those who challenge.

As others have been allowed to compare Thailand with Australia, I will say that whatever is bad about Thailand, or in deed Australia, pales by comparison with the scale of corruption of the U.S.A. and the devious and ruthless means by which they procure the world's resources, and obliterate all who dare to stand up to them. I won't post any links, but you can Google John Perkins and "Confessions of an Economic Hitman", When you've read the book, or watched the lengthy 2-part interview, I wonder if you have the nerve to criticise a Thai policeman for subsidising his pathetic wages with a few Baht, or if you even remember where Thailand is, even though you may live in the Kingdom.

[bunuel]

Have just returned to Thailand after 5 years in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, so from my perspective, Thailand's problems with corruption are relatively minor. In spite of all the things that are obviously going on here, things do get generally get done - albeit nowhere near as well as they should be. That much being said, the poster below has a very point.

If foreign investors cannot rely on their local partners, they will invest somewhere they can. The Thai attitude towards foreigners is, frankly, a bit schizophrenic. On the one hand. foreign investment drives the economy, while on the other hand, constantly changing regulations make long term planning difficult both for individuals and corporations. For example, regarding foreign land ownership, foreigners are not permitted to own land because they might buy up all desirable properties if they could, leaving nothing for Thais. This is understandable, but it begs the question of which Thais own land now.

The bottom line is that, as one poster has pointed out, rule of law does not exist in Thailand. Instead, there is rule by law. Or, to paraphrase a line from my old boarding school,"There are no laws until they are broken."

The fact that Thailand functions as well as it does in spite of these structural flaws is a tribute to the resilience and flexibility of the Thai people. As elsewhere in Asia, many things work on the basis of tacit understanding of things one should never talk about.

To talk about them would be dangerous, in some cases. And extremely rude in most Asian countries, where it is a sin to deal with any problem too directly. So, with all respect to Jurgen, this is an impossible topic to discuss in an open forum like this one.

To revert to Africa, I can only offer the wise words of Ghanian leader Kwame Nkrumah, who said,"The problem in Africa is not corruption- it is disorganized corruption."

Aside from the resilency of her people, one of the main reasons for Thailand's being so far ahead of developing countries in Africa like the DRC is that corruption here is very , very organized. In practise, this means you only pay once - as opposed to the DRC, where you can find yourself paying every day of the week - and you still don't know if you have paid the right official!

uote name="wamberal" post="6160744" timestamp="1362111742"] SteeleJoe,

Probably the worst single effect of corruption, in many developing countries, is that it acts as a disincentive to foreign investment, which in turn means that economic growth (and especially the benefits that can flow from growth to the poorer people in society) is stifled.

The single biggest cause of poverty in the world today is a lack of business/trade/employment opportunities, and it is widely recognised that corruption is one of the biggest hurdles stopping those opportunities.

[thaibeachlovers]

I have told this story before but there is corruption we can't see.

Road to my rented house gets millions of baht yearly from head government official he then passes a % to a mate that knows a construction team, the mate takes a % and gives the job to the construction team, they then employs team of villages with wheelbarrows and a truck full of tar, all happy.

Asked why not just do the job properly once then no need to repeat this every year, the answer is "we will get no money next year if the road is not in disrepair" .

So true.

In Pattaya, they replaced the drain pipes along Beach Rd with bigger pipes each year for about 3 years in a row. Would have been cheaper to have put the big pipes in the first time but.............................

Where I live, they are putting in a big storm water drain, using unskilled labour. Looks terrible, and because they don't know how to make concrete slab properly ( and saving money by making it too thin ), it's going to collapse in a few years. Disaster waiting to happen because they won't do it properly, to save money, which will go into.............................................

The locals elect corrupt officials and get the poor service they deserve, bad roads, rubbish everywhere, mosquitoes etc, but it doesn't have to be this way.

[transam]

I have told this story before but there is corruption we can't see.

Road to my rented house gets millions of baht yearly from head government official he then passes a % to a mate that knows a construction team, the mate takes a % and gives the job to the construction team, they then employs team of villages with wheelbarrows and a truck full of tar, all happy.

Asked why not just do the job properly once then no need to repeat this every year, the answer is "we will get no money next year if the road is not in disrepair" .

So true.

In Pattaya, they replaced the drain pipes along Beach Rd with bigger pipes each year for about 3 years in a row. Would have been cheaper to have put the big pipes in the first time but.............................

Where I live, they are putting in a big storm water drain, using unskilled labour. Looks terrible, and because they don't know how to make concrete slab properly ( and saving money by making it too thin ), it's going to collapse in a few years. Disaster waiting to happen because they won't do it properly, to save money, which will go into.............................................

The locals elect corrupt officials and get the poor service they deserve, bad roads, rubbish everywhere, mosquitoes etc, but it doesn't have to be this way.

But the elected now has a Merc, sooooo it's OK in the eyes of the electorate, perhaps. .

[brimacthai]

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

As a victim of Aussie corruption I agree with you 100%. I fell much saver here in Thailand that I do in Australia!

[SteeleJoe]

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

As a victim of Aussie corruption I agree with you 100%. I fell much saver here in Thailand that I do in Australia!

Sure. And after all, that's all that matters, right? How you feel?

Who cares what it does to the country and it's people...

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[jcnbkk]

The only difference in corruption between Thailand and the west is that the small guy gets to join in the game here whereas in the west it is only the guys at the top that get away with it. Because the small guy is also involved here it is also more visible.

Corruption exists all over the world.

Agree.

Corruption is pervasive.

Here, from the top down.

US, for example, at the top, consolidated in power.

I think of the quote: Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[fire and ice]

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

I don’t like Gillard either (or the entire Labor party for that matter) but you’re making mountains out of mole hills comparing this to Thailand. Even the Eddie Obeid saga in $ terms pales into insignificance compared to Thai corruption.

If you like Thailand system more then I take it you’d be happy to let Gillard muzzle the media and also sue them also for writing any story against her? In Thailand this kind of corruption would never even make gossip circles let alone the media. Note that Craig Thompson has been charged – in Thailand they wouldn’t even transfer him to an “inactive seat ”.

However much I disliek Gillard I do believe she is really there to try to improve the country (despite doing a lousy job of it), I don't think her real ambitions are to feed at the trough.

Edited March 1, 2013 by fire and ice

[krisb]

About the same as it was when this was talked about last week .

[kevvy]

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

so that means if you are poorly paid you can extort money for the really poor people ., and you agreed with this. politicians are all the same all over the world . police are not , as here you pay to join the police force and knowing you will get wealthy , in Australia they do not pay to get into the force , and they do not extort money from drivers as their Thai counterparts do .

[watcharacters]

99%

FUBAR / SNAFU

Interesting choice of words.

Mind to develop your thinking ?

.

Are you being reasonable? 555

[JurgenG]

"I've been fined quite a lot. But never for something i didn't do."

Let me offer an ad hoc definition of a fine.........

A "fine" is something you are ordered to pay by the judiciary as a penalty for a law you have transgressed. I have paid a speeding fine as a result of a speed trap - I sent the money order to the police of that region. The fine was documented and a photo of my vehicle was sent to me.

I assume that the money was then deposited in the right place - I haven't ay proof of that. I also assume that the speed camera was calibrated and that I was the driver - although in the picture it isn't clear......if I was in Europe, I would have easily checked out all of this, but in Thailand I don't, I tend to just accept it.

However on SEVERAL occasions I've been stopped by police who have claimed both correctly and incorrectly that I was committing some minor traffic offence, the result has been no paperwork whatsoever, but it is usually followed by the handing over of cash without a receipt. The transactions have pretty much invariably been carried out in a friendly way and I have been allowed to continue on my way often without any document or vehicle safety checks.

What are these officers doing? they are apparently "extorting" money from motorists regardless of whether or not they have committed an offence, no due process of law is carried out and I very much doubt that any of the money goes into the coffers it is supposed to.

THis practice is common, ubiquitous, endemic, pandemic and epidemic in Thailand and accepted by a ;large number of the populace as the norm.

It is NOT, it is a flagrant abuse of power and the law and a huge obstacle to Thailand ever becomimng a truly "free" or democratic country.

The fact is that this sort of behaviour is accepted by a vast number of the Thai population and exists in every aspect of business and government from the lowliest civil servant right to the highest echelons of Thai authority.

comparing this level corruption to that of other countries is pretty much becomes a furphy or red herring; it is Thailand that needs to address its own problem and the situation in other countries (better or worse) in no way justifies the situation in Thailand.

I've a good news for you and a bad news for a number of other people.

The good new is if you follow the Thai forums, more and more people get camera in their car and get corrupt policemen on video and post later on Pantip or Facebook.

The bad news is it's going to be more and more difficult to negotiate the fines ...

[SteeleJoe]

"so that means if you are poorly paid you can extort money for the really poor people ., and you agreed with this."

Exactly.

"politicians are all the same all over the world ."

I honestly don't how people can know anything about Thai politics and think that; degree matters, does it not? In a half decent liberal democracy, there is SOME concern about doing right by the populace some of the time and (not incidentally) a requirement to do so. The is SOME limitation to what you can get away with and to an extent that, if not sufficient, makes some kind of difference.

(Besides - I thought the topic was Thailand and how corrupt it is or isn't rather than how does it compare to the US or Australia...)

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[watcharacters]

You guys may be missing the point. The problem in Thailand is the lack of rule by law, allowing corruption to flourish.

I'll be banned from Thaivisa if I mention my theory about why there is no rule of law here.

.

Please do speak candidly for the benefit of all of us. Honesty should be absolutely fine with TV.