SteeleJoe,

Probably the worst single effect of corruption, in many developing countries, is that it acts as a disincentive to foreign investment, which in turn means that economic growth (and especially the benefits that can flow from growth to the poorer people in society) is stifled.

The single biggest cause of poverty in the world today is a lack of business/trade/employment opportunities, and it is widely recognised that corruption is one of the biggest hurdles stopping those opportunities.

I nearly mentioned that but I deliberately left it out as 1) economics is the area on which I can speak with the least authority 2) I was trying to focus on humane issues and didn't want to appear to be thinking in terms of profit and loss for foreigners - though it absolutely IS relevant to the quality of life for Thais as you point out 3) I got embarrassed about how I was starting to get into a long screed...

Great post.

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To be fair to JurgenG, the question was not "Is corruption a bad thing", or "What's wrong with corruption?"; his question was "How corrupt is Thailand".

Speaking from my own experience, I would say

Much more corrupt than Hong Kong or Singapore.

More corrupt than Australia.

Slightly more corrupt than Malaysia

I have not done enough work in the Philippines, Vietnam, Taiwan, Korea, China or India to draw a reliable comparison.

From gossip and newspapers and fictional accounts, much less corrupt than many African countries.

SC

Never answered the question in the OP's title!

My perception is based on more than just what meets the eye or a superficial consideration: (like many, I'm sure) I can base it on years of reading, observation and careful thought of my own and opinions of people far more knowledgeable than I. And my "perception" is that Thailand is EXTREMELY corrupt. It is systematic and systemic. Is it the worst in the world? Not even close, I shouldn't think (though the mind boggles at the thought of a place much worse in this regard). But I'd not be at all surprised if it was indeed around where indexes typically place it - lower than the halfway mark on the scale ranking from least corrupt to most corrupt in the world.

EDIT TO ADD:

Dammit! SC makes me redundant again...I'm going to start waiting to read his posts before I post mine...

Edited March 1, 201313 yr by SteeleJoe

TO THE CORE

You guys may be missing the point. The problem in Thailand is the lack of rule by law, allowing corruption to flourish.

I'll be banned from Thaivisa if I mention my theory about why there is no rule of law here.

Patience old boy. The clock is ticking. Change will come.

Edited March 1, 201313 yr by geriatrickid

Wow. I missed this gem earlier...

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it. The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches. Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

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Edited March 1, 201313 yr by SteeleJoe

Wow. I missed this gem earlier...

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it. The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches. Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

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You mean stinking heap of warm poo....

How corrupt is Thailand? How long is a piece of string?

Wow. I missed this gem earlier...

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it. The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches. Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

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You mean stinking heap of warm poo....

Yes, as a matter of fact that IS what I meant...sometimes I'm not so good with words...

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To be fair to JurgenG, the question was not "Is corruption a bad thing", or "What's wrong with corruption?"; his question was "How corrupt is Thailand".

Speaking from my own experience, I would say

Much more corrupt than Hong Kong or Singapore.

More corrupt than Australia.

Slightly more corrupt than Malaysia

I have not done enough work in the Philippines, Vietnam, Taiwan, Korea, China or India to draw a reliable comparison.

From gossip and newspapers and fictional accounts, much less corrupt than many African countries.

SC

Actually my question was, for the regular guy, can you live and work in Thailand without having to pay bribe and under table money. Based on my experience, yes you can.

Now people are talking about big business, government contracts .... that's different.

It's an anonymous forum so people can be more free to talk. For those involve in international business what is the % of your customers who doesn't ask for a kick back in a form or an other ? Thailand doesn't have a monopoly for corruption, far from it !

Edited March 1, 201313 yr by JurgenG

In Thailand. corruption is a way of life, accepted and condoned by young and old,

rich and poor, and it has been so for a hundreds of years, and no one can, want,

or willing to change it, any comments to the contrary from the powers that be are

lips service and nothing else...

In Thailand. corruption is a way of life, accepted and condoned by young and old,

rich and poor, and it has been so for a hundreds of years, and no one can, want,

or willing to change it, any comments to the contrary from the powers that be are

lips service and nothing else...

Interesting statement based on ...???

I worked, bought a house, applied for mortgage, dealed with a number of administration, normal life for a number of years. Never had to pay for under table money.

Your experience is different. Can you give us more, specific details ?

Edited March 1, 201313 yr by JurgenG

Well then it is no different here. The govt here noatter whom it is... Is rotten to the core...steals,what they can through business...mimisters or smiles.. And keeps the masses,starvedof knowledge and sends them to the streets to love us long time..care for them and keep the poor happy.

Sp corrupt as hell i say

Why not make corruption legal.Then it would be illegal to be honest.

It is a very pleasant country to live and do business in.

Just taking into account the ASEAN countries I do business in then IMHO Myanmar, Cambodia, Philippines, Indonesia and Vietnam have far, far higher levels of corruption entrenched in them both from a business viewpoint and personal living perspective.

I agree with earlier comments which said that in Thailand the corruption is relatively visible and small scale, while in the west is large scale and well hidden.

Over the last few years I have come to understand how the price of houses in Australia are amongst the highest in the world. Basically the Land Developers and Builders have infiltrated Government at every level to make it impossible for small people to build a house and so force people to buy their grossly inflated shit-boxes on their overpriced estates.

And to those knocking the Australian Labour government, you are in for a nasty surprise if you think things will change under the Conservatives. The MSM might paint Labour as incompetent, but for years the Conservatives have raised Sleaze and Corruption to the highest art-form. Sadly both parties are both owned by the MSM and the super rich.

"They say that patriotism is the last refuge,

to which a scoundrel claims-

Steal a little and they throw you in jail,

steal a lot and they make you a saint,

There's only one-step down from here baby-

it's called the land-of-poverty bliss,

What's a Sweetheart like Youuuuu,

doooin in a dump like this?"

- Bob Dylan

Sweetheart Like You

YouTube

It can be as clean as you want it to be. Many people, including expats, prefer it not to be. Most of the time, it isn't terribly hard to follow the rules here, and thus, avoid all sorts of corruption that would otherwise impede the life of us mere mortals. Most people a lazy however, and when the easy way out exists, they'll take it. Even if it regularly comes back to bite them.

Edited March 1, 201313 yr by samran

The only difference in corruption between Thailand and the west is that the small guy gets to join in the game here whereas in the west it is only the guys at the top that get away with it. Because the small guy is also involved here it is also more visible.

Corruption exists all over the world.

Thailand is 100% corrupt, but it's equal opportunity corruption.

I can participate as much as anyone important.

England, Europe, America is 100% corrupt, but it's not equal opportunity.

The rich and powerful are the only ones allowed to participate.

we never think about corruption

because corruption come from us

we give the police to get chance from us

sometimes the police make chance for themselves

we know we do wrong

we know we break the law

we don’t want to go police station

we can give him money so no go to police station

you know now police get commission from the fine they give you

everyone say this

I not sure 100% because no have relative police

for us it not corruption if have to pay little bit to make document process faster

we don’t like, sure. but this is life here

I know it same this in your country

but we hate when someone do something bad and pay money for the problem to go away.

this is corruption for us.

about the future, difficult to say

I have hope one day the corruption, it will be less

about how to do, I don’t know

sorry for honest

The only difference in corruption between Thailand and the west is that the small guy gets to join in the game here whereas in the west it is only the guys at the top that get away with it. Because the small guy is also involved here it is also more visible.

Corruption exists all over the world.

We never had to include a 15% rake-off in any of our tenders in the UK.

SC

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

At least in Australia the politicians and various government agencies are not ordering the killings of their political opponents, environmental activists, supporting extrajudicial killings of alleged criminals, not prosecuted for speaking out against the establishment etc. I guess their would be exceptions, but rare. All in all when comparing the impact of corruption on a society I prefer the western democracies and their usually transparent judicial processes.

Agree with the OP regards day to day living in Thailand. Fortunately yet to be stopped by police for extracting tea money

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

At least in Australia the politicians and various government agencies are not ordering the killings of their political opponents, environmental activists, supporting extrajudicial killings of alleged criminals, not prosecuted for speaking out against the establishment etc. I guess their would be exceptions, but rare. All in all when comparing the impact of corruption on a society I prefer the western democracies and their usually transparent judicial processes.

Agree with the OP regards day to day living in Thailand. Fortunately yet to be stopped by police for extracting tea money

How come Pauline Hanson was persecuted & eventually jailed (later to be aquitted) then? Not that I particularly agreed with her policies, but man did the Australian "establishment" do a job on her.

What happened to all of the money borrowed for flood control? It is in the issuing of bonds for major improvements where the money disappears.

What does it take to get a permit to build a condo? Who gets the big government contracts for infrastructure?

Corruption is massive.

Massive and almost everywhere. The only difference is the risk and likelihood of getting caught and punished. In Thailand and much of Asia, it's less likely than in the 'West'.

"I've been fined quite a lot. But never for something i didn't do."

Let me offer an ad hoc definition of a fine.........

A "fine" is something you are ordered to pay by the judiciary as a penalty for a law you have transgressed. I have paid a speeding fine as a result of a speed trap - I sent the money order to the police of that region. The fine was documented and a photo of my vehicle was sent to me.

I assume that the money was then deposited in the right place - I haven't ay proof of that. I also assume that the speed camera was calibrated and that I was the driver - although in the picture it isn't clear......if I was in Europe, I would have easily checked out all of this, but in Thailand I don't, I tend to just accept it.

However on SEVERAL occasions I've been stopped by police who have claimed both correctly and incorrectly that I was committing some minor traffic offence, the result has been no paperwork whatsoever, but it is usually followed by the handing over of cash without a receipt. The transactions have pretty much invariably been carried out in a friendly way and I have been allowed to continue on my way often without any document or vehicle safety checks.

What are these officers doing? they are apparently "extorting" money from motorists regardless of whether or not they have committed an offence, no due process of law is carried out and I very much doubt that any of the money goes into the coffers it is supposed to.

THis practice is common, ubiquitous, endemic, pandemic and epidemic in Thailand and accepted by a ;large number of the populace as the norm.

It is NOT, it is a flagrant abuse of power and the law and a huge obstacle to Thailand ever becomimng a truly "free" or democratic country.

The fact is that this sort of behaviour is accepted by a vast number of the Thai population and exists in every aspect of business and government from the lowliest civil servant right to the highest echelons of Thai authority.

comparing this level corruption to that of other countries is pretty much becomes a furphy or red herring; it is Thailand that needs to address its own problem and the situation in other countries (better or worse) in no way justifies the situation in Thailand.

Edited March 1, 201313 yr by wilcopops

It is a very pleasant country to live and do business in.

Just taking into account the ASEAN countries I do business in then IMHO Myanmar, Cambodia, Philippines, Indonesia and Vietnam have far, far higher levels of corruption entrenched in them both from a business viewpoint and personal living perspective.

It is a very pleasant country to live in for the most part.

Studies indicate Indonesia and Vietnam are indeed arguably somewhat more corrupt than Thailand, as are the Phillipines - all three of them are a very poor standard to compare to as they are on the lower end of the world's spectrum. Myanmar and Cambodia are amongst the world's worst - again, to be better than them is nothing to be proud of or even satisfied with.

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"for us it not corruption if have to pay little bit to make document process faster

we don’t like, sure. but this is life here

I know it same this in your country

but we hate when someone do something bad and pay money for the problem to go away.

this is corruption for us."

good example of how many people in Thailand cannot see howthere is no difference between the 2 examples above.

Its moderately corrupt in certain sectors, very corrupt in others, and less corrupt in others. Many shades of gray here - and there are people who are not corrupt, but if spend most of your time on Walking Street in Pattaya, or Patpong or Nana in Bangkok, you aren't likely to find incorruptible folks easily.

The only difference in corruption between Thailand and the west is that the small guy gets to join in the game here whereas in the west it is only the guys at the top that get away with it. Because the small guy is also involved here it is also more visible.

Corruption exists all over the world.

We never had to include a 15% rake-off in any of our tenders in the UK.

SC

Corruption and theft do not always take the same form. People in other countries are smarter. Look at SIngapore where they legalized their corruption. For many years, Sematech - the holding company for Singtel and numerous other gov/semi-gov enterprises was never audited. Even the Auditor General had no access to their books. How's that for hiding any shenanigans. Nobody could see where the billions in profits went.

Edited March 1, 201313 yr by angmo

Of course there is corruption but in my view the problem is not corruption in everyday life. I've never had to a pay a bribe to an immigration or any other official but like everyone else I have been stopped in my car for having excessive cash. Fortunately the cops were able to take care of the problem on the spot. Most of the Thais I have talked to in rural areas do not have to pay bribes as part of getting along.

The real problem is corruption at the highest levels where every infrastructure project you can name has got some corruption attached to it. This has three serious impacts. First, the projects themselves are either overpriced or substandard or both. Second, since most of the senior officials involved spend all their time lining their pockets there is nobody doing the jobs that need to be done. And third, the people who are qualified professionals who could really make this country hum are so turned off by the whole mess they don't want to have anything to do with government and many try to find work in another country.

Like so many areas of Thai life, the pieces for solutions are all here but nobody seems to want to put them together. Yet I still love this place and hope for improvement.