First Time Uk Visa For Thai Partner - Visitor Or Settlement Visa?

[Tony M]

As an aside from my own situation, I spoke to a friend in the UK whose Thai girlfriend has just received her second successful tourist visa. I asked about documents etc.. (seeing as my bank stuff is in the UK) and he said for both applications he's emailed everything. No original documents sent at all. Are the rules different for tourist visas or is he just a lucky boy? They used an agent if that matters.

The rules say that original documents must be produced. We have been lucky in Thailand in that the Embassy have always allowed applicants to submit certian documents as copies. They still do, but more for visit applications than settlement. ECOs have the legal right to ask for an original document if they want, or if they are not happy with the copy. This, of course, delays the processing time of your application. And, the ECO can refuse the application if he wants to as the rules say that original documents must be provided.

[TCA]

Thanks Tony. Original docs it is then. No point in taking unnecessary risks.

[kevinbraysford]

Hello if you have £62500 in the bank you are exempt from the new

Edited March 17, 2013 by kevinbraysford

[theoldgit]

Unsubstantiated flame removed, cut it out.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[TCA]

This is going to sound extreme, especially given my previous comments on the subject, but I've now almost convinced myself to get married in Thailand. Always said I'd never do so for visa purposes (my own Thai visa) but this is different as I had options.

I really don't want my girlfriend to apply and fail for an unmarried partner visa (looks like we're borderline), given the time and expense involved plus having to reapply. A tourist visa leaves us little or no further forward after 6 months and she'd end up back in Thailand. And I'm thinking a fiancée visa just adds another step to the process, albeit it grants a period of grace in the UK.

Not the most romantic of circumstances but perhaps needs must. After nearly 4 years together I'm sure the question would be raised soon anyway!

Can one of you guys please reassess my partner's settlement visa chances with the addition of a possible marriage certificate, and assume that the only Thai property rental contract we have with her name on, is the current one. I should add that during this lease I spent 4.5 months in the UK last year, so so far 5 months in this property and in all likelihood I'll return to the UK when this application gets underway.

Any and all views appreciated.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

This is going to sound extreme, especially given my previous comments on the subject, but I've now almost convinced myself to get married in Thailand. Always said I'd never do so for visa purposes (my own Thai visa) but this is different as I had options.

I really don't want my girlfriend to apply and fail for an unmarried partner visa (looks like we're borderline), given the time and expense involved plus having to reapply. A tourist visa leaves us little or no further forward after 6 months and she'd end up back in Thailand. And I'm thinking a fiancée visa just adds another step to the process, albeit it grants a period of grace in the UK.

Not the most romantic of circumstances but perhaps needs must. After nearly 4 years together I'm sure the question would be raised soon anyway!

Can one of you guys please reassess my partner's settlement visa chances with the addition of a possible marriage certificate, and assume that the only Thai property rental contract we have with her name on, is the current one. I should add that during this lease I spent 4.5 months in the UK last year, so so far 5 months in this property and in all likelihood I'll return to the UK when this application gets underway.

Any and all views appreciated.

If you marry, and meet the financial requirements ( which you said you do ), then it doesn't really matter where she lives, or has lived. You will need to prove that your relationship is genuine and subsisting, and that you have adequate accommodation in the UK.

Tony M

[TCA]

Thanks Tony. The genuine and subsisting part is the bit (a major bit granted), that would likely scupper us in an unmarried partner application, hence thoughts drifting to a marriage application.

In terms of evidence, how does this sound?

Photographs of us together going back 3 years, showing us at a friend's birthday party (March 2010), my girlfriend, her daughter and I at Songkran April 2010, my birthday (Oct 2010), Xmas day 2010, Krabi holiday Jan 2011 (got joint flight ticket but no hotel receipts), Songkran April 2011 (3 of us), then unfortunately a bit of a gap while I was mostly in UK or just no photos taken, Songkran April 2012 (3 of us), beach shots May 2012 and my mum's visit around Loy Kratong Nov 2012 and any photos we care to take right here and now.

We might be able to do something with previous property rental contracts (to get her name on) and/or get some bank documents showing her old address as mine (not hopeful at all), but failing that we'll have a current rental agreement from June 2012 with both our names and internet bills in her name. Bearing in mind from my previous post I haven't been here for the full lease.

Assuming we have no more proof than that at present, and financial requirement and UK accommodation requirement are met, for a married settlement application, would this be enough do you think?

Edited March 21, 2013 by TCA

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Thanks Tony. The genuine and subsisting part is the bit (a major bit granted), that would likely scupper us in an unmarried partner application, hence thoughts drifting to a marriage application.

In terms of evidence, how does this sound?

Photographs of us together going back 3 years, showing us at a friend's birthday party (March 2010), my girlfriend, her daughter and I at Songkran April 2010, my birthday (Oct 2010), Xmas day 2010, Krabi holiday Jan 2011 (got joint flight ticket but no hotel receipts), Songkran April 2011 (3 of us), then unfortunately a bit of a gap while I was mostly in UK or just no photos taken, Songkran April 2012 (3 of us), beach shots May 2012 and my mum's visit around Loy Kratong Nov 2012 and any photos we care to take right here and now.

We might be able to do something with previous property rental contracts (to get her name on) and/or get some bank documents showing her old address as mine (not hopeful at all), but failing that we'll have a current rental agreement from June 2012 with both our names and internet bills in her name. Bearing in mind from my previous post I haven't been here for the full lease.

Assuming we have no more proof than that at present, and financial requirement and UK accommodation requirement are met, for a married settlement application, would this be enough do you think?

It would not be fair of me to say one way or the other. The visa officer has to make the decison on the evidence provided. If he thinks it is enough, he will issue. He will make his decison based on the balance of probabilities, that is, is what you say likely, on balance, to be a fact. He will use his own guidance on genuine relationships, which I'm sure you've seen, but here it is again:

section-FM2.1 genuine and subsisting relationships.pdf

To put things slightly in perspective, I have seen refusal decisons where the ECO has said soemthing along the lines of " thank you for providing your sponsor's holiday photos.................., etc ", which is pretty insulting when you are trying to prove a relaationship, but you can see the pitfalls, I'm sure.

[TCA]

To put things slightly in perspective, I have seen refusal decisons where the ECO has said something along the lines of " thank you for providing your sponsor's holiday photos.................., etc ", which is pretty insulting when you are trying to prove a relaationship, but you can see the pitfalls, I'm sure.

Thanks, but wow. That is harsh. With hindsight, not taking photos for a couple of months could be costly. I can string about 7 consecutive months together of photos of us both in 2010/11 but can't do better than that without gaps.

I'd hope my passport copies would show me as more than just a tourist and not merit the above response from the ECO. That and a couple of year-long property leases in my name.

And not to mention a wedding certificate.

This is all pretty discouraging. Who'd have thought proving the truth would have been so seemingly impossible.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

To put things slightly in perspective, I have seen refusal decisons where the ECO has said something along the lines of " thank you for providing your sponsor's holiday photos.................., etc ", which is pretty insulting when you are trying to prove a relaationship, but you can see the pitfalls, I'm sure.

Thanks, but wow. That is harsh. With hindsight, not taking photos for a couple of months could be costly. I can string about 7 consecutive months together of photos of us both in 2010/11 but can't do better than that without gaps.

I'd hope my passport copies would show me as more than just a tourist and not merit the above response from the ECO. That and a couple of year-long property leases in my name.

And not to mention a wedding certificate.

This is all pretty discouraging. Who'd have thought proving the truth would have been so seemingly impossible.

If you are married, then the situation becomes a lot easier to "prove", of course. Don't be put off by anything I've said, just be aware that, with the info you have available, then it might be difficult to show that you qualify as "unmarried partners". Not impossible, but difficult. If you are married, then you don't have to prove the 2 years of relationship, only that it is a genuine and subsisting marriage.

Edited March 21, 2013 by ThaiVisaExpress

[TCA]

Don't be put off by anything I've said, just be aware that, with the info you have available, then it might be difficult to show that you qualify as "unmarried partners". Not impossible, but difficult. If you are married, then you don't have to prove the 2 years of relationship, only that it is a genuine and subsisting marriage.

Thanks for your continued guidance.Yes, I had come to the conclusion that our proof for the unmarried partners route was lacking, so that's why I mentioned the marriage option. Given your example from the ECO, I thought you were still saying that as a married couple we'd still have trouble proving "genuine and subsisting".

Yet if we can't convincingly prove genuine and subsisting as unmarried partners, how can we prove genuine and subsisting as a married couple? We've still only got the same evidence for either route (as mentioned above) and if we got married even now, there wouldn't be much "subsistence" to the actual marriage.

I guess what I'm saying is I think the likes of 3 years of photos (albeit with some gaps) and current property lease plus internet bill in my girlfriend's name, will establish the relationship over time, but not enough to prove we actually stayed together all that time. Or perhaps 50/50.

So I'm trying to gauge just how much a marriage certificate would swing the odds in our favour?

Edited March 21, 2013 by TCA

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Don't be put off by anything I've said, just be aware that, with the info you have available, then it might be difficult to show that you qualify as "unmarried partners". Not impossible, but difficult. If you are married, then you don't have to prove the 2 years of relationship, only that it is a genuine and subsisting marriage.

Thanks for your continued guidance.Yes, I had come to the conclusion that our proof for the unmarried partners route was lacking, so that's why I mentioned the marriage option. Given your example from the ECO, I thought you were still saying that as a married couple we'd still have trouble proving "genuine and subsisting".

Yet if we can't convincingly prove genuine and subsisting as unmarried partners, how can we prove genuine and subsisting as a married couple? We've still only got the same evidence for either route (as mentioned above) and if we got married even now, there wouldn't be much "subsistence" to the actual marriage.

I guess what I'm saying is I think the likes of 3 years of photos (albeit with some gaps) and current property lease plus internet bill in my girlfriend's name, will establish the relationship over time, but not enough to prove we actually stayed together all that time. Or perhaps 50/50.

So I'm trying to gauge just how much a marriage certificate would swing the odds in our favour?

In either case you have to show that you have a genuine and subsisting relationship. You can put the same evidence in as either a married couple or as unmarried partners. But the visa could be refused because the ECO is not satisfied that you "have been living together in a relationship akin to a marriage for two years" if he is not satisfied with the evidence you provide as unmarried partners. If you are married then you don't have to prove that you have been living together for two years, and you provide a marriage certificate instead.

[TCA]

If you are married then you don't have to prove that you have been living together for two years, and you provide a marriage certificate instead.

Thanks. I'm getting the picture. So with marriage, the 2 year proof of living together is not required. Obviously I'd still submit as much evidence as possible, but would the evidence we have (as listed above), plus a marriage certificate, be enough to be successful?

It's subjective I know, so I'm just after opinions as to how strong a case we have if we go the marriage route.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

If you are married then you don't have to prove that you have been living together for two years, and you provide a marriage certificate instead.

Thanks. I'm getting the picture. So with marriage, the 2 year proof of living together is not required. Obviously I'd still submit as much evidence as possible, but would the evidence we have (as listed above), plus a marriage certificate, be enough to be successful?

It's subjective I know, so I'm just after opinions as to how strong a case we have if we go the marriage route.

Your case, if you marry, will be strong enough, I think ( without having seen any of your documents. etc).

Tony M

[TCA]

Thanks Tony. That gives me some encouragement. We'll continue putting the documents together and reassess when the picture is more complete.

Just one question on the marriage front. If for the sake of getting an application underway (and avoiding a lot of expense in one go), we tie the knot at the amphur and forego any wedding parties, ceremonies etc....for the timebeing at least, would this count against our application do you think?

Reading the link you posted about "weddings" guidelines for ECOs, mentioning the word "sham" re no family or friends in attendance, has got me thinking.

If if I do this it would probably be a trip to Bangkok with Embassy, translator and legalisation one day, then Bang Rak amphur the next!

[liveforever]

Tca,

Regarding photos at your wedding, although our relationship was a lot longer that yours, we only had the 1 photo and that was us with the signing officer. All the very best mate.

[TCA]

Thanks liveforever. That's good to know. I'm sure wedding party photos would lend weight to any application but I cannot see anything like that happening before we submit documents to VFS, so was just wondering if the "quickie" marriage registration with no family or friends present, was in any way detrimental to the application.

Edited March 22, 2013 by TCA

[theoldgit]

The Amphur wedding is all you need, all the other extras are nice but don't make you any more married, all the UKBA are interested in is your marriage certificate.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[TCA]

Thanks oldgit. Exactly what I wanted to hear.

[liveforever]

Tca,

If you've been together 2 years+ like you say, its not exactly a quicky wedding really; also, most people I saw in the amphour that day were just couples, there were no groups with them including thai/thai weddings. Hope this helps

[TCA]

Yes we're nearly 4 years together so not exactly a quickie in that sense. It was more from the angle of UKBA's perception that we'd be registering a marriage then applying for a visa shortly afterwards, with a distinct lack of ceremony, party and family and friends involvement. Or evidence thereof. The oldgit has put my mind at rest though.

Now I'm back looking at the BULATS English language test. Every demo I can find is filled with complex examples. All quite advanced English business speak. I realise the test is adaptive to the applicant's level, at least in part, but I'd be more confident if my girlfriend had some basic stuff to practice with.

[TCA]

Just got a few random application questions as I gather our info.

1) Photographic evidence - are original photos plus photocopies acceptable or do we need 2 sets of photos?

2) Original documents will be provided for bank statements and internet bills. For the accommodation letter from my parents, will photocopies of any provided house documents (insurance, council tax etc) suffice?

3) Passport photos to accompany application - I know these can be done at a local Kodak shop in Thailand but I'm not convinced the quality is sufficient for the UKBA. I didn't use for renewing my passport. Is it wiser to use the photo service at VFS and if so, can this be done within the appointment or completely separate? Presumably Kodak fine for the TB certificate though?

Thanks for any pointers.

[theoldgit]

Just got a few random application questions as I gather our info.

1) Photographic evidence - are original photos plus photocopies acceptable or do we need 2 sets of photos?

2) Original documents will be provided for bank statements and internet bills. For the accommodation letter from my parents, will photocopies of any provided house documents (insurance, council tax etc) suffice?

3) Passport photos to accompany application - I know these can be done at a local Kodak shop in Thailand but I'm not convinced the quality is sufficient for the UKBA. I didn't use for renewing my passport. Is it wiser to use the photo service at VFS and if so, can this be done within the appointment or completely separate? Presumably Kodak fine for the TB certificate though?

Thanks for any pointers.

1 - I have only ever, and it's a couple of years since I've last done it, printed some indicative photos on some ordinary paper, ie one from each trip abroad showing us together, ECO's don't need to be overwhelmed with photos, I have only ever provided one set of photos printed on paper which were returned.

2 - They do ask for original documents, I'm sure that the ECO's realise the impracticalities of sending original documentation from the UK, but they are also aware of the ease with which docs can be altered.

3 - The photos are to copy onto the vignette and I would have thought a Kodak shop ones would be fine, they are aware of the requirements. I wouldn't use VFS out of principal, in fact the one for my girlfriends last visa I printed at home.

[TCA]

Thanks oldgit. You've surprised me on all counts there.

I thought for sure real photos (with photocopies) and although it's original documents for the "real" proof (marriage, financial, medical, English language), I was sure that "secondary" proof of my parents address (with original invitation letter), would be ok as copies. I certainly won't be asking my dad to retrieve his title deeds from the building society and post them to Thailand.

And really thought I'd get a "better to be safe than sorry" answer re the passport photos.

I'd be interested to hear any other experiences of all this.

[bifftastic]

We've successfully applied for three Family Visit Visas for my wife, and on all three occasions have used the local photo shop places to provide the photos for the application itself. They're cheap, good quality, and know exactly the size requirements for a UK visa.

A photo is a photo, just because there is, somehow, a connection between a photo machine that sits in the VFS office and 'good old blighty' doesn't make the photo that comes out of it any better.

I would not give VFS, or the British Embassy, a single baht more than I absolutely had to.

As for photos to be included in the application, like accommodation, photos of us together, and of our wedding. The last application, we didn't include any (other than photos of my home here in London), but for the first one, where we were establishing that our relationship was genuine, we had wedding shots, holiday shots, days out with the family etc.

I printed them direct from my computer on to A4 sheets, no problem with that whatsoever.

If they had been on glossy photo paper, that wouldn't have said anything at all about whether or not they were 'real' I could have printed the exact same photos myself onto photo paper. No difference at all apart from the cost to me, and how much more difficult it would have been for the ECO to look at them.

If they're on A4 paper, they fit nicely in with everything else.

As for the accommodation details, I've always given them copies but this was for visit visas, not sure how much more stringent they are about accommodation for settlement, but I would be extremely hesitant to give them the deeds for my house for instance.

Can you get your parents to have a solicitor sign a copy of the deeds? That should authenticate them enough.

[TCA]

A photo is a photo, just because there is, somehow, a connection between a photo machine that sits in the VFS office and 'good old blighty' doesn't make the photo that comes out of it any better.

Can you get your parents to have a solicitor sign a copy of the deeds? That should authenticate them enough.

Cheers biffastic. Very useful info, thanks. On the passport photo front, I'm just mindful of when I renewed my UK passport via the post office, when they advised me not to use my Thai photos in case rejected. As I was pushed for time to get my passport back, it was enough to make me sit in their booth and pay for overpriced versions.

I guess if a solicitor signed a copy he'd need to see the originals. Don't really want to get my elderly parents too involved. Will think on. I do have an accountant friend who has certified docs for me in the past. He might do.

[7by7]

Self certification used to be acceptable; don't know if it still is, though.

[bifftastic]

A photo is a photo, just because there is, somehow, a connection between a photo machine that sits in the VFS office and 'good old blighty' doesn't make the photo that comes out of it any better.

Can you get your parents to have a solicitor sign a copy of the deeds? That should authenticate them enough.

On the passport photo front, I'm just mindful of when I renewed my UK passport via the post office, when they advised me not to use my Thai photos in case rejected.

Maybe they weren't up to the standards for a passport. I recently renewed my passport here in the UK and used a shop that was pretty much identical to the one my wife used in Bangkok (the staff were Asian, but from a slightly different part of Asia ) sat in a chair, he got his camera out took the photos and then got his 'UK passport' sized cutter out and made it the right size. Exactly the same process as we went through in Bangkok for my wife's photos for her visa application.

As for the deeds, I'll ask my friend who has just applied for a settlement visa for his wife. Similar circumstances, the accommodation is his parents home in the UK

Edited March 26, 2013 by bifftastic

[TCA]

As for the deeds, I'll ask my friend who has just applied for a settlement visa for his wife. Similar circumstances, the accommodation is his parents home in the UK

Thanks. That would be really helpful. I'll be interested to hear what he found out regarding the requirement.

[bifftastic]

Right, spoke to him last night and he told me he did get his dad involved to sort that bit out.

He got a land registry document (online, I believe http://www.landregistryonline.net/) a letter from a solicitor confirming that the property is owned by his parents, and a letter from the bank confirming that the property had been fully paid for.

Belt and braces perhaps. The land registry document might be enough by itself?