Learn Yoga/meditation Without The Chanting?

[CrossBones]

Hi

Im interested in learning yoga and buddhism. Im hoping it will help me stop smoking and feel happier and less anxious about life in general.

The thing is, im not a buddhist, i dont necessarily believe in incarnation and to be honest would feel a bit silly doing chanting and vows etc.

Id like to do a meditation retreat but without the chanting and "religious" stuff. Of course i highly respect the buddhist religion but im not going to pretend to be one.

Someone is going to say my attitude is totally wrong I think?

[JurgenG]

If you want to stop smoking Allen Carr's method is worth a try

I tried 7 years ago. I was smoking between 1 and 2 pack a day, tried every other method including skin patch, nothing worked. I read the book, never smoked again. And I'm not the only one. I don't say it works with everybody but it's worth a try.

Edited March 15, 2013 by JurgenG

[rockyysdt]

It depends what type of Meditation/Yoga program you're after.

Is it regular weekly classes or is it a 10 day retreat or even longer.

Any Concentration/Awareness practice with "Effort" is beneficial.

It coincidentally forms one facet of the Eightfold Path the Buddha taught.

I don't believe "chanting" is mandatory.

At the retreat I attend in the south of Thailand, they offer options during the Chanting session.

There are lecture periods involved, where you can learn about what the Buddha taught, but these are a small part of the days routine and the practice itself revolves around Awareness.

If you are patient during these, they may end up being quite interesting.

Awareness of the Breath.

Awareness of the Body.

Awareness of Thoughts.

Awareness of Feelings.

Awareness of the External.

All these can eventually assist one giving up habits such as smoking.

If you expect immediate results you might be dissapointed.

I've seen smokers attend retreats and check out by the 2nd or 3rd day of a 10 day retreat.

They started climbing the walls.

When you sit in concentration, you are alone with your thoughts.

Many of your thoughts may become overpowering, especially if they contain craving (nicotine craving).

The idea is to observe ones thoughts without attachment, gently diverting attention to the breath when they occur.

Edited March 15, 2013 by rockyysdt

[Jawnie]

Find a yoga school or studio that isn't based in Buddhism or have it in their course. Yoga doesn't have to be practiced within the a Buddhist context.

[Sheryl]

If by yoga you mean physical yoga, it has nothing to do with Buddhism.

For Buddhist meditation (meaning the meditation technique the Buddha taught, not a sectarian practice) there is a tradition widely available here in Thailand that is secular in orientation and makes a point of being completely non-sectarian.

At the start of the 10 day retreat (which is the mimimum time period in which one can learn the technique) you will be asked to very briefly repeat some vows and a request to receive instruction in Pali (with English translation offered so you know what you are saying). Later discourse helps exp;ain the reason for this and to differentiate it from any sort of religious belief. Beyond that no vows and no chanting by you. At the start of sitting sessiosn they will play about 5 minutes of chanting but the students do not chant. The whole thing emphasizes a secular, scientific approach and is not in any way inconsistent with any belief system because it is not about beliefs, it is about direct experience through a practical technique . There are no devotional exercises. You will see that many stidents bow down towards the teachers but there is no requirement to do so. You do not have to "believe" anything (nor would it help you to do so).

Most of the teachers are lay people leading normal lives. Some are husband-wife teams.

see www.dhamma.org for general info and then click on courses - Asia - thailand for listing and schedule of courses.

[meadish_sweetball]

I sometimes also feel a bit awkward doing these things, but not awkward enough that I let it become a hindrance to my practice, which I feel is really useful.

The way I see it, meditation practice itself (in Vipassana) is about examining the nature of experienced reality.

The Buddha was the guy who came up with the method for this, and your meditation teacher is the guy who is helping you when you are learning the method - so it makes sense to pay respect I think.

Jack Kornfield said he felt similarly when he first came to the monastery in Thailand. To come to terms with it, he made himself observe something in the person that was truly worthy of respect and then bow to that - for example, when he bowed to another monk there who was a rice farmer with little education, he bowed to the wrinkles in his eyes from plowing the fields in the hot sun. Most people have some trait you can respect if you look for it. You get the drift.

Truthfulness is crucial, but flexibility and openness are also good traits to cultivate.

I haven't been to any Goenka retreats (the method Sheryl mentioned) myself, but I know a handful of other people who have, and all of them have been positive about the experience. The method has its critics too, though.

[CrossBones]

Hi

Thanks for your responses.

To be honest, im a bit overwhelmed with all the different types of yoga and meditation.

I want to do a 10 day retreat. Im smoking a lot, ive tried everything (except alan carr method.. but i just bought the book on your recommendations) but sure there are emotional problems behind it.

Really... where should I start? Im based in Thailand, not a tourist. 30,000 baht seems like a lot for a 2 week course? Most of the yoga retreats seem to have 2-3 hours a day... so could i not also combine with a meditation at the same time?

Where is a good place to start.. i could go anywhere in Thailand really but would prefer the north.

Thanks!

[meadish_sweetball]

If you want to try Goenka style Vipassana, I believe they have a center in Lamphun province. Check their schedule to see when the course with English instruction starts.

As far as I am aware, most meditation courses do not allow simultaneous yoga practice. The reason for this is the same reason as if you would participate in a scientific study evaluating a medication or therapy - the scientist (in this case yourself) wants to be sure about what method/medicine it is you are testing, and properly attribute any effects or insights you may get from the practice.

Wat Rampoeng in Chiang Mai offer Vipassana meditation retreats too, but teach a slightly different method. If you go there, you will need to participate in and learn some rituals. It also tends to get a bit crowded at times due to its good reputation and possibly also its ease of access.

[fabianfred]

I heard from a friend who recently did a Goenka retreat that it doesn't stress the Buddhist side of meditation so that may be the right one for you ...as poster Beryl has stated above.

As far a stopping smoking goes. I smoked for thirty years and when i went on 7 day meditation retreats at Wat Amphawan they only recommended that we didn't smoke. I had no problem with this and after the third one, at the end of the week, thought 'why carry on since I'd stopped for a week already.'

From 14 to 21 I smoked ordinary cigarettes, then changed to the pipe. i sometimes smoked roll-you-own from tobacco with the little rolling machines and filter tips. The important thing I tell people is to stop the commercial produced ready made cigarettes since they contain many chemicals (saltpetre...a prime constituant in gunpowder i believe). Start smoking roll-your-own or pipes since the tobacco is more pure and easier to stop smoking from.

[Several]

Perhaps trying to learn yoga and meditation while quitting smoking is a bit ambitious. I'd start with the yoga as it contains elements of meditation. Like body building it takes time for your physical frame to adjust to it. It also has the effect of leading you naturally to a healthier lifestyle. As you become better at it you become more aware of what your body wants, diet changes naturally and some people simply drop the smoking as they feel they don't need it anymore. Later you can look into meditation. Jumping straight into a retreat can, as Rocky says, have you climbing the walls. Its not a good idea to run a marathon without practice. Best to concentrate on doing one thing well than three things distracted. If your smoking is linked to stress, is it possible to eliminate or reduce the stress causes first? This will also impede meditation as your mind will linger on that rather than concentrate on the moment.

[sabaijai]

Googling mindfulness/yoga/retreats it's clear that nowadays many retreats do incorporate yoga as a mindful way to stretch the body between formal walking and sitting sessions.

[Sheryl]

The meditation tradition I mentioned does not charge anything for courses. The teachers and all the workers are unpaid volunteers. I would personally have doubts about any meditation in the Buddhist tradition that operated any other way.

Voluntary donations are accepted after the course. There is absolutely no soliciting of this and no pressure. You give what you can both afford and feel inclined at that point to offer, not as payment for your course (which you have at that point already gotten, free) but as a contribution to enable others to get the same benefit in future.

[rockyysdt]

Googling mindfulness/yoga/retreats it's clear that nowadays many retreats do incorporate yoga as a mindful way to stretch the body between formal walking and sitting sessions.

Yes, that's my experience at Wat Suan Mokkh International Retreat.

Every morning during the retreat one hour of yoga is held.

These are held in separate groups for males and females.

Almost every muscle group in the body is individually exercised, followed by several sets of a routine which covers all the muscle groups in the body.

This is followed by a form of meditation lying on a mat with arms by ones side.

The yoga exercises culminate in the complete relaxation of the body.

As the body and mind are linked, the deep physical relaxation coincides with a deeply relaxed and calm mind.

I can't think of a better way to begin meditation.

I was told the Monks tolerate the yoga classes for the western visitors, but would never engage in such activity as it is not part of Buddhist tradition.

I feel this is a pity, as a good yoga workout is extremely beneficial to ones body and the relaxation of the mind.

I've read in the past that the mind and body can't exist separately and one impacts on the other.

A tense body leads to rampant thoughts.

A relaxed body leads to a calm mind.

Conversely rampant thoughts cause the body to tense.

A calm mind is usually associated with a relaxed body.

I incorporate this logic in my meditation routine.

Whilst meditating, if I find myself with rampant thoughts, I return my awareness to the body.

Usually I will find that tension has returned.

I will also often notice this might be accompanied with shortness of breath.

I focus on the tension in the body and let go until it is relaxed, and then return to the longish relaxed, uncontrolled breath.

If I by pass the body I find my concentration is weak and rampany thoughts return.

By ensuring the body is full relaxed the mind is usually more settled allowing me to concentrate on the breath for longer periods.

It's a pity Monks don't incorporate yoga in their daily routine.

Yoga is a terrific, low impact form of exercise suitable for all ages.

It does wonders for circulation, relaxation, flexibility and general well being.

A marvelous thing to have awareness of.

Edited March 21, 2013 by rockyysdt

[CrossBones]

Thanks for your responses. Ive been looking at the dhamma.org site as suggested all courses currently full. Can anyone recommed anything near chiang mai thanks

[fabianfred]

The monk who rides horses from the documentary 'Buddha's Lost Children' teaches exercises which incorporate some yoga like moves or perhaps also qui gong. Monks get little exercise apart from the daily alms-round.

Also my teacher Supawan Green uses taichi moves to teach Vipassana.

We all know about the Shaolin monks and their kung-<deleted>....but it is quickly pointed out that they are mahayana.

Don't know why such resistance to good health in Theravada.

Ajarn Suthep a Theravada monk from Singapore teaches exercises similar to those of Supawan ... he was a student of LP Tee-an

Supawans teaching here...

my video of The Monk in the Golden Horse temple here...

[Several]

It is a bit odd that the locals ignore physical aspects. Being Indian I'm pretty sure Buddha would have known about yoga. We sit pamasana, there is standing meditation which is tadasana or sammasthitihi, the lying pose mentioned by Rocky is savasana. Mindfulness, single pointed attention, breathing are all fundamental to yoga. The kung <deleted> practiced by Shaolin is an extention of chi kung as introduced by Bodhidharma in the Yi Jin Jing. He was Indian, so this is likely a Chinese interpretation of yogic practice. There are also the six yogas of Naropa. I feel the Thais have misunderstood the physical aspects of practice. They simply try to ignore the body, but that is exactlt where Buddha said everything could be found. Within this fathom long carcass, as the quote goes

[rockyysdt]

It is a bit odd that the locals ignore physical aspects. Being Indian I'm pretty sure Buddha would have known about yoga. We sit pamasana, there is standing meditation which is tadasana or sammasthitihi, the lying pose mentioned by Rocky is savasana. Mindfulness, single pointed attention, breathing are all fundamental to yoga. The kung <deleted> practiced by Shaolin is an extention of chi kung as introduced by Bodhidharma in the Yi Jin Jing. He was Indian, so this is likely a Chinese interpretation of yogic practice. There are also the six yogas of Naropa. I feel the Thais have misunderstood the physical aspects of practice. They simply try to ignore the body, but that is exactlt where Buddha said everything could be found. Within this fathom long carcass, as the quote goes

Precisely.

Looking after and being aware of body assists at so many levels.

It seems that many have attachment to custom/tradition.

[Tomiro]

I know you don't want to hear this, I know I didn't because I felt uncomfortable as well. But being able to let-go of the feeling of being uncomfortable with chanting can be part of the letting-go process. I can almost hear my former teacher saying "if you can't let go of your silly resistance to chanting, how do you ever expect to let go of your deeply seeded habits." Seriously think about this.

If you just can't get past your aversion, go to a local temple and explain it like you just did to us. You will find most of the order to be very accomodating. If nothing else, they should be able to referr you to someone who can help. I was also adverse to chanting in a language I didn't undertand (pali) and was helped by a traveling Monk from Wat Phra Dhammakaya who helped me with meditation. I later became a monk practicing in the Frest Tradition, and eventually the first buddhist Monk with the Us Navy Chaplain corps. The point being, talk to a local abbott, they live to help people learn. It's all they do, and through their network can find an apropriate teacher for nearly any circumstance. Most will appreciate your coming to them and be grateful for their oppertunity to assist you.

If you can't get past your discomfort, and also feel uncomfortable going to a local temple, use the contact form at appliedawareness.org to leave a message that you'd like to do some self-study meditation. You'll get information to get started, and guidance as your meditation matures.