Using Bleach For Shocking

[AllanB]

I was reading up on using bleach in a swimming pool and it was suggested that it is better suited to shocking the water, due to it's instant dissolving Apparently household bleach has a ph value of 11, whereas chlorine tablets have a value of 3, so by using a combination of the the two, one could keep the water at 7 without any need for any ph balancing chemicals. The beach chlorine content is around 10%, so easy to work out the amount needed and the economics seem to make sense..

Anyone tried this?

[Naam]

chlorine tablets have a value of 3

says who?

so by using a combination of the the two, one could keep the water at 7 without any need for any ph balancing chemicals

no can do!

Edited March 16, 2013 by Naam

[AllanB]

chlorine tablets have a value of 3

says who?

>so by using a combination of the the two, one could keep the water at 7 without any need for any ph balancing chemicals

no can do!

A website I was looking at, hmm, can't find it now, but it seems a reasonable figure given the lowering effect of such a small quantity of chlorine used.

"No can do!"...what does that mean?

[Mrjlh]

Do not use "House Hold Bleach!" Wrong chemical. \

You can shock the pool simply using either liquid chlorine (not bleach) or power, All shocking is doing is over chlorinating your pool. You really do not need too much. It can damage the lining and seals in the water pump if you are too aggressive.

[JAS21]

I don't have a pool but this read may be interesting http://www.wikihow.com/Properly-Maintain-Swimming-Pool-Water-Chemistry

[AllanB]

Do not use "House Hold Bleach!" Wrong chemical. \

You can shock the pool simply using either liquid chlorine (not bleach) or power, All shocking is doing is over chlorinating your pool. You really do not need too much. It can damage the lining and seals in the water pump if you are too aggressive.

I have read many articles which seem to support my theory, this is perhaps the most concise. http://www.ehow.com/info_8491190_not-household-bleach-swimming-pool.html

The active ingredient in household bleach is indeed chlorine, the rest appears to be water to make the product consumer usable.

As you point out it is best to use liquid chlorine, as this is the most ph neutral form, but so far I have not seen this in Thailand Anyone know where I can buy this?

I am fully aware of quantities to use and how excess can regrade grouting and glaze, not to mention one's pocket, I have no seals in my pools and the pump seals should be chlorine resistant, since they are often subjected to much higher levels of chlorine. I always aire on the side of caution and use less, as my selectable pore sized filtration system can remove pretty much everything anyway.

[Mrjlh]

Do not use "House Hold Bleach!" Wrong chemical. \

You can shock the pool simply using either liquid chlorine (not bleach) or power, All shocking is doing is over chlorinating your pool. You really do not need too much. It can damage the lining and seals in the water pump if you are too aggressive.

I have read many articles which seem to support my theory, this is perhaps the most concise. http://www.ehow.com/info_8491190_not-household-bleach-swimming-pool.html

The active ingredient in household bleach is indeed chlorine, the rest appears to be water to make the product consumer usable.

As you point out it is best to use liquid chlorine, as this is the most ph neutral form, but so far I have not seen this in Thailand Anyone know where I can buy this?

I am fully aware of quantities to use and how excess can regrade grouting and glaze, not to mention one's pocket, I have no seals in my pools and the pump seals should be chlorine resistant, since they are often subjected to much higher levels of chlorine. I always aire on the side of caution and use less, as my selectable pore sized filtration system can remove pretty much everything anyway.

Very interesting. I just read several articles about chlorine and reverse my view point. I was always told never to use bleach because of the extra additives that is put into them can screw up the balance and cause harm. Main difference between bleach and pool chlorine is the strength and pool chlorine has stabilizers so the chlorine lasts longer under UV light. So use away. Here;s a couple more articles that is useful. Learned something today.

http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/use-household-bleach-in-swimming-pools.html

http://www.ecmi.us/infowindows/using-bleach-in-pools.asp

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_you_use_Clorox_bleach_to_chlorinate_a_pool

[tollgate]

Do not use "House Hold Bleach!" Wrong chemical. \

You can shock the pool simply using either liquid chlorine (not bleach) or power, All shocking is doing is over chlorinating your pool. You really do not need too much. It can damage the lining and seals in the water pump if you are too aggressive.

Bleach is liquid chlorine. If buying bleach in a supermarket, buy the unscented version. Having said that, I have never seen bleach in a supermarket here in Thailand. All the toilet cleaning products are like "Duck" and based on hydrochloric acid.

I buy 10% liquid chlorine at Mr Pool in Jomtien. B400 for 20 litres. Using liquid chlorine is pH neutral. Liquid chlorine does not contain cyanuric acid (CYA). Trichlor tabs will lower your pH and increase your CYA.

[AllanB]

Do not use "House Hold Bleach!" Wrong chemical. \

You can shock the pool simply using either liquid chlorine (not bleach) or power, All shocking is doing is over chlorinating your pool. You really do not need too much. It can damage the lining and seals in the water pump if you are too aggressive.

Bleach is liquid chlorine. If buying bleach in a supermarket, buy the unscented version. Having said that, I have never seen bleach in a supermarket here in Thailand. All the toilet cleaning products are like "Duck" and based on hydrochloric acid.

I buy 10% liquid chlorine at Mr Pool in Jomtien. B400 for 20 litres. Using liquid chlorine is pH neutral. Liquid chlorine does not contain cyanuric acid (CYA). Trichlor tabs will lower your pH and increase your CYA.

1. They sell it at Macro and Tesco at 65 baht for 2 litres, but I suspect that it is only 6% so that works out at 541 baht per 1kg of chlorine.

2. Mr. Pool's works out at 20 baht/litre x 10 = 200 baht per/kg of chlorine.

3. Chlorine shock is 82% chlorine (plus other unnamed chemicals) and 5 kg costs 810 baht = 197.56 per kg of chlorine.

Conclusion:-

a) So your method of using Mr.pool's ph neutral liquid is, on paper the best, with no other chemicals introduced, requiring neutralization..

However there is the issue of why the acid it there in the first place, to retain the chlorine within the water for a longer period, in high UV conditions.

c) Well that is what we are told, but we are not supplied with any figures. as to whether it is worthwhile.

d) If I was being cynical I could say that they can then sell you another product, or two, or three....(a complete con, like timing belts on cars)

e) My pool has a roof and is therefor not subjected to direct UV, so that helps me.

Personally, I don't like all this chemical crap they try to sell you, the companies who make the stuff don't tell you, so the salesmen don't know the side effects. Ph neutral liquid chlorine sounds good to me, but I need somewhere closer to Khon Kaen.

.

Edited March 22, 2013 by AllanB

[tollgate]

A chlorine shock product is a bit of a misnomer. Shocking is process carried out by adding much more regular chlorine than normal and then holding it higher until the process is complete.

Liquid chlorine adds virtually nothing to the water other than chlorine. If your pool is outside, CYA will most certainly be required to prevent the chlorine being lost to sunlight. Probably needs to be in the range 60 - 80 ppm here in Thailand, although as you have a cover, you can reduce this significantly. Indoor pools do not normally need CYA. CYA can be bought separately or added as part of stabilised chlorine (ie Trichlor tabs or granules.). Once the correct CYA level is reached, use of these products should be stopped until the CYA level falls.

You're right, pool shops have all sorts of chemicals they want to sell you. But all you normally need is:

Liquid chlorine

Cyanuric acid

Hydrochloric Acid to lower pH

Soda Ash to raise pH

Sodium BiCarb to raise total alkalinty

[SantiSuk]

"(Cyaunauric Acid)probably needs to be in the range 60 - 80 ppm here in Thailand"<br /><br />I will be very happy if that view is correct, Tollgate, as my pool had reached 90+ and I had to replace 25% of my water to get it down to 70 (my pool is 20 months old, treated with chlorine powder with CYA stabiliser and presumably rose from near 0 to 90+ over that period, despite rainy season dilutions.<br /><br />I had however read somewhere recently that there is no point keeping your CYA above 20% and the attached article seems to support that - "The graph shows very little difference in stabilization from 25 to 100 ppm CA". The tests seem to have been done in a hot climate but maybe we are even more exposed to UV here.<br /><br />I was looking forward to my levels dropping much lower when I switch to salt water chlorination and the rainy season starts, but if you have other authoritative advice that suggests 60-80 then maybe I'll need to add CYA occasionally.<br /><br />I read that there can be adverse effects of too high a level of CYA on pool tile grouting, but maybe the higher level (in your 60-80 range) is not damaging enough to worry about.

[SantiSuk]

"(Cyaunauric Acid)probably needs to be in the range 60 - 80 ppm here in Thailand".

I will be very happy if that view is correct, Tollgate, as my pool had reached 90+ and I had to replace 25% of my water to get it down to 70 (my pool is 20 months old, treated with chlorine powder with CYA stabiliser and presumably rose from near 0 to 90+ over that period, despite rainy season dilutions.

I had however read somewhere recently that there is no point keeping your CYA above 20% and the attached article seems to support that - "The graph shows very little difference in stabilization from 25 to 100 ppm CA". The tests seem to have been done in a hot climate but maybe we are even more exposed to UV here.

I was looking forward to my levels dropping much lower when I switch to salt water chlorination and the rainy season starts, but if you have other authoritative advice that suggests 60-80 then maybe I'll need to add CYA occasionally.

I read that there can be adverse effects of too high a level of CYA on pool tile grouting, but maybe the higher level (in your 60-80 range) is not damaging enough to worry about.

Cyanauric acid and swimming pools.pdf

[AllanB]

A chlorine shock product is a bit of a misnomer. Shocking is process carried out by adding much more regular chlorine than normal and then holding it higher until the process is complete.

Liquid chlorine adds virtually nothing to the water other than chlorine. If your pool is outside, CYA will most certainly be required to prevent the chlorine being lost to sunlight. Probably needs to be in the range 60 - 80 ppm here in Thailand, although as you have a cover, you can reduce this significantly. Indoor pools do not normally need CYA. CYA can be bought separately or added as part of stabilised chlorine (ie Trichlor tabs or granules.). Once the correct CYA level is reached, use of these products should be stopped until the CYA level falls.

You're right, pool shops have all sorts of chemicals they want to sell you. But all you normally need is:

Liquid chlorine

Cyanuric acid

Hydrochloric Acid to lower pH

Soda Ash to raise pH

Sodium BiCarb to raise total alkalinty

That defeats the object of using liquid chlorine, if you are going to add CYA, you may as well use the pucks. I have a pool roof, with little or no direct sunlight, hence my reason for using liquid chlorine. Which in turn avoids having to use all that other stuff.

[tollgate]

Hi Allan

In fact, when I need CYA, I do use the pucks. But if I was to use them all the time, I would be raising my CYA by 30 ppm per month. So it's liquid chlorine most of the time, and pucks in the rainy season when I'm having to drain a lot of water. As you say in your case, the roof will stop chlorine from burning off, so you probably need little or no CYA. Out of interest, what's you daily chlorine use in ppm? For me (and my pool is in full sunlight), it's around 2 ppm per day.

[transam]

You may come out your pool with white hair. ...............

[tollgate]

I certainly would as it's white when I get in.

[Naam]

I certainly would as it's white when I get in.

same here!

[Naam]

chlorine tablets have a value of 3

says who?

>so by using a combination of the the two, one could keep the water at 7 without any need for any ph balancing che

micals

no can do!

A website I was looking at, hmm, can't find it now, but it seems a reasonable figure given the lowering effect of such a small quantity of chlorine used.

"No can do!"...what does that mean?

it's "thinglish" used by one of our staff, actually meaning "you should not..."

my experience: chlorine in any form (tablets, granules, liquid) are pH-raising. that applies even to the miniscule 0.2-0.5ppm i maintain in my pool. however, i don't balance with acid but use very low pH water from my deep well to top up evaporation loss. works out perfectly.

[AllanB]

When I was using pucks,, about 1.2 per week, so about 0.8 ppm/day as a rough guess.

The roof was the best thing I ever did, when we get back from a sweaty morning out, we both shower off the crap and spend 1/2 hour in the pool chillin', maybe longer lying on an airbed with some black cock, safe from the damaging sun. Most Thais hate brown skin and this solves the wife's problem.

I fitted 3 cheapo lights in the roof and can swim any time and put a volleyball net between the two centre posts and play whenever. Aerobics for the unmotivated.

Bit cold in the winter, but that makes me feel at home.

[AllanB]

chlorine tablets have a value of 3

says who?

no can do!

>so by using a combination of the the two, one could keep the water at 7 without any need for any ph balancing che

micals

A website I was looking at, hmm, can't find it now, but it seems a reasonable figure given the lowering effect of such a small quantity of chlorine used.

"No can do!"...what does that mean?

it's "thinglish" used by one of our staff, actually meaning "you should not..."

my experience: chlorine in any form (tablets, granules, liquid) are pH-raising. that applies even to the miniscule 0.2-0.5ppm i maintain in my pool. however, i don't balance with acid but use very low pH water from my deep well to top up evaporation loss. works out perfectly.

So what do you mean by "you should not" ? The maths works. When did you use household bleach in your pool to know the ph value?

You are very lucky with the ph level of your well water, not much use to us city dwellers, unless you have a bowser and deliver free, our mains water is whatever they have in stock at the time, if any. Another advantage of the roof, very low evaporation, about 1mm a day, this weather..

[farang000999]

no reason at all to use those chlorine tabs, only liquid chlorine.

[AllanB]

Digressing slightly, but on the subject of alternatives, what can I use in place of ph+, 450baht for 5kg of F.A. seems a tad expensive.

Also what is it called in Thai?

[tollgate]

Digressing slightly, but on the subject of alternatives, what can I use in place of ph+, 450baht for 5kg of F.A. seems a tad expensive.

Also what is it called in Thai?

I use soda ash (sodium carbonate), but I think this was B350 for 5 kg. I would expect your ph+ to be the same stuff? Sorry, don't know the Thai name.

[SantiSuk]

The swimming pool repackagers are making a killing. Soda ash should be dirt cheap. I bought a 25 kg sack of soda ash in Jomtien 2 years ago (of which I have used 2 kg - my pool tends to need acid; I'm pretty sure it was les than 500baht - anyone passing my way in Kantharalak is welcome to buy a few kg pro-rata!).

I see that Pool Doctors in Bangkok sell 50kg for 800 baht. Presumably the big lad to hump it out of your car at home might be extra!

Edit: just gone and looked at my sack to see if it says anything in Thai. It's actually a 40kg sack and its made in China and labelled in English. Knowing how little sophistication there is to pool maintenance in Thailand I suspect that the only places you will buy it are English speaking anyway. The pool shop has scrawled something in Thai on the back of the sack. I'll ask my wife if its says anything useful when she returns with the hoardes of kids for a swimming pool party later this afternoon. Must go out there now and transfer some water from the pool to reserve and hide anything of value like my fins and goggles

Edited April 10, 2013 by SantiSuk

[Naam]

So what do you mean by "you should not" ? The maths works. When did you use household bleach in your pool to know the ph value?

i did not refer to bleach. the maths does not work because because you don't know what kind of chlorine tablets you buy in Thailand. several years ago i bought tablets for our water tanks (imported from China) which were not the usual slow dissolving one but dissolved in no time. turned out they were just pressed granular chlorine with a high pH without the usual additives. add to this the exaggerated price of tablets to experience zero advantage.

[Naam]

Digressing slightly, but on the subject of alternatives, what can I use in place of ph+, 450baht for 5kg of F.A. seems a tad expensive.

Also what is it called in Thai?

I use soda ash (sodium carbonate), but I think this was B350 for 5 kg. I would expect your ph+ to be the same stuff? Sorry, don't know the Thai name.

as Santisuk mentioned, soda ash is dirt cheap. bought years ago 25kg for 600 or 700 Baht. did not use more than 1kg.

[Naam]

You are very lucky with the ph level of your well water, not much use
to us city dwellers, unless you have a bowser and deliver free, our
mains water is whatever they have in stock at the time, if any. Another
advantage of the roof, very low evaporation, about 1mm a day, this
weather.

having acidic well water is a mixed blessing. the garden likes it, the fixtures

lose their chrome plating when used in the home.

[Naam]

no reason at all to use those chlorine tabs, only liquid chlorine.

if you have a chlorinator the tablets are convenient. i use liquid chlorine too but i pump it.

[AllanB]

So what do you mean by "you should not" ? The maths works. When did you use household bleach in your pool to know the ph value?

i did not refer to bleach. the maths does not work because because you don't know what kind of chlorine tablets you buy in Thailand. several years ago i bought tablets for our water tanks (imported from China) which were not the usual slow dissolving one but dissolved in no time. turned out they were just pressed granular chlorine with a high pH without the usual additives. add to this the exaggerated price of tablets to experience zero advantage.

The maths doesn't have to be perfect, the fact is one is ph low and the other high, by a process of trial and error you will be able to monitor the resultant and adjust accordingly, if necessary.

It seems the best way to buy PH+ is to form a cooperative, buy a big bag and share it out, it sin't a hazardous chemical is it?.Buy a 50kg bag and put it into 10off 5kg empty tubs left over from chlorine, at 80 baht a tub. I'm game. Cheaper than 450baht.

[tollgate]

So what do you mean by "you should not" ? The maths works. When did you use household bleach in your pool to know the ph value?

i did not refer to bleach. the maths does not work because because you don't know what kind of chlorine tablets you buy in Thailand. several years ago i bought tablets for our water tanks (imported from China) which were not the usual slow dissolving one but dissolved in no time. turned out they were just pressed granular chlorine with a high pH without the usual additives. add to this the exaggerated price of tablets to experience zero advantage.

The maths doesn't have to be perfect, the fact is one is ph low and the other high, by a process of trial and error you will be able to monitor the resultant and adjust accordingly, if necessary.

It seems the best way to buy PH+ is to form a cooperative, buy a big bag and share it out, it sin't a hazardous chemical is it?.Buy a 50kg bag and put it into 10off 5kg empty tubs left over from chlorine, at 80 baht a tub. I'm game. Cheaper than 450baht.

Not hazardous. Americans (and perhaps others) use it as a detergent booster in their washing machines.