Atm Fraud - Lawyers

[monty]

My Bangkok Bank card has a chip. As do all my other cards (Australian, NZ, European). However these cards still have magnetic strips as "backup" and many ATMs read the magnetic strip not the chip.

Apparently the main reason is that the US is behind the game and has magnetic cards in general use and hardly any chip cards which means ATMs worldwide must still accept magnetic strips (although in Europe they are being phased out now I believe).

So regardless whether it has a chip, the magnetic strip can still be skimmed.

I don't know the physical/technical attributes of the chipped Be1st cards the bank is using.

But from my past conversations with BKK Bank, they've indicated their chipped ATM cards WILL NOT work at ATMs in the U.S. or with other Thai bank ATMs.

So that's making me think they went with a method that doesn't contain an operating magnetic strip approach???

Sorry that's not correct, at least in part. Not sure about using the Be1st cards in the US (or anywhere outside of Thailand for that matter - they don't have embossed numbers so presumably are "limited"), however they *do* work in other bank's ATMs (at least in two I used in Chiangmai recently; can't remember the bank brands).

Maybe there's some confusion about what kind of card is involved here... BKK Bank offers two different kinds of Be1st debit cards.

One is the SMART Be1st Debit card, which is the variety with the embedded smart chip. In talking with the bank's customer service this afternoon, the staff member confirmed that their Smart card, the one with the embedded microchip, cannot be used to withdraw cash from any other Thai bank's ATMs.... it only should work with BKK Bank ATMs.

The regular BKK Bank Be1st debit card, the one without the embedded chip, should work in all ATMs, inside and outside Thailand.

That is the advice the bank gave me a year or two ago when they first began offering the Smart card. That's the same advice they repeated today.

Meanwhile, while I was at it, I also called and checked with Siam Commercial's customer service.

The CSR I spoke with said SCB's credit card are all available now in the chipped form. But the CSR said none of SCB's debit cards at present are available with chips...only the traditional magnetic strips. No word from them on whether SCB plans to offer chipped debit cards in the future.

Well maybe there's two kinds of Be1st Cards with chips on them - mine has a visible chip on it - and it works in other bank's ATMs. I've only had it for a few months BTW>

You have your info from the bank - but did you actually stick that card into an ATM? Not sure how long you've been in LOS, but in my experience, any helpful information provided by anyone should be taken with a grain of salt. Because if you ask, and they don't know, they will give the safe answer. So nobody loses face...

Does the card have a magnetic strip? If not, it must be a newer model. If yes, my guess is it will work in other bank's ATMs.

I have the Bkk Bank Be1st card with a chip.

It definitely does not work on atm's from other banks, tried at least 5 times, with different banks.

The atm will go through the motions of asking pin, you choose a withdrawal amount, but then it gets followed by a message saying transaction cancelled, contact issuing bank...

Card is around 6 months old.

[monty]

Btw, it's actually called the Be1st SMART card.

As opposed to the regular Be1st card.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I thought most atm dispensers had daily limits of how much can be withdrawn.; and 31k bht to withdraw in a uk cash machine woud need to be over at least 2 days; is that correct.

If a card skimmer is suspected, did you go back to atm; ask the bank staff to check it.

I use the atm as infrequently as possible, and only in emergency if the bank itself is shut as I am paranoid about fraud like this...but its true PIN numbers are irrevelent to the criminals, they can read them easily.

BKB ATM allow 50k a day in two transactions.

It's a bit more complicated than that... For BKK Bank debit card holders, they have the option to choose from four different daily limits on ATM cash withdrawals using their card.

50,000, 100,000, 150,000 or 200,000 baht per day.

But, their ATM machines probably will only produce at most 30 or 40 bills per transaction.

So even if you chose the lowest 50,000 baht daily limit, you wouldn't be able to get all those funds from a BKK Bank ATM in one withdrawal.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Btw, it's actually called the Be1st SMART card.

As opposed to the regular Be1st card.

Yes, the Be1st SMART debit card is the one with the embedded micro-chip.

BKK Bank's older, regular, non-chip debit card is just called the Be1st card (without the SMART).

Edited March 17, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[monty]

I thought most atm dispensers had daily limits of how much can be withdrawn.; and 31k bht to withdraw in a uk cash machine woud need to be over at least 2 days; is that correct.

If a card skimmer is suspected, did you go back to atm; ask the bank staff to check it.

I use the atm as infrequently as possible, and only in emergency if the bank itself is shut as I am paranoid about fraud like this...but its true PIN numbers are irrevelent to the criminals, they can read them easily.

BKB ATM allow 50k a day in two transactions.

It's a bit more complicated than that... For BKK Bank debit card holders, they have the option to choose from four different daily limits on ATM cash withdrawals using their card.

50,000, 100,000, 150,000 or 200,000 baht per day.

But, their ATM machines probably will only produce at most 30 or 40 bills per transaction.

So even if you chose the lowest 50,000 baht daily limit, you wouldn't be able to get all those funds from a BKK Bank ATM in one withdrawal.

25 bills (25000 Baht) per Bkk bank atm transaction.

[Chicog]

I have seen adverts of Thai banks' new cards, and all of them seem to have chips on them. When will they start rolling out chip ATM's? Chips are a nightmare for skimmers, since the chip can not be copied, and the card does not go far enough inside the ATM for the magstripe to be copied either. Quite secure for the cardholder, imho.

The only way to "skim" a chip card is to somehow obtain the PIN and then steal the original card...

Who needs skimmers?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/09/13/chip_and_pin_security_flaw_research/

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Member hml367 brought to my attention that, according to the BKK Bank website, there appears to be different ATM withdrawal limits for the BKK Bank regular Be1st debit card vs. their Be1st Smart debit card, although their POS limits are the same.

The website has the following info:

Be1st Card:

ATMs:

(I can't find a mention on the BKK Bank website of the ATM limit for the regular Be1st Card. But I have one and have used and checked the limits in the bank's telephone banking system earlier today. The only four choices for ATM withdrawal limits were 50,000, 100,000, 150,000 or 200,000 baht. I think the bank either used to have or perhaps still has an initial 500,000 baht withdrawal limit on the card, but once the cardholder changes the default, the max thereafter is only 200,000.)

POS:

"You can spend up to 150,000Bt per day or, if you want to limit your
expenses you can choose to cap your daily spending at 20,000Bt,
50,000Bt, 100,000Bt, or 150,000Bt. Also can choose to set the spending
limit at zero."

Be1st Smart Card:

ATMs:

"Daily withdrawal limit: Maximum daily withdrawal of
up to 500,000Bt or you can select your own limit of either 50,000Bt,
100,000Bt, 150,000Bt, 200,000Bt or 500,000Bt."

POS:

"Super shopping: Choose your maximum daily
purchasing limit - you can choose to set your daily spending at either
20,000Bt, 50,000Bt, 100,000Bt or 150,000Bt."

[JeffreyWitty]

A tip for others (if it hasn't been mentioned) -

If here long-term and you are able - put (most) your money in a savings account. You can withdraw money in person at the bank and avoid all the scammers. Besides, the interest rate in the Thai banks are far better than many stateside banks.

However, banks vary and I tend to trust Bangkok Bank the most for not going under so my money in a savings account with them is best I feel.

[Plastic Brontosaurus]

Btw, it's actually called the Be1st SMART card.

As opposed to the regular Be1st card.

Yes, the Be1st SMART debit card is the one with the embedded micro-chip.

BKK Bank's older, regular, non-chip debit card is just called the Be1st card (without the SMART).

Oops - my bad!! I was sure the card had a chip but did not have it in my wallet. Went to the suitcase and got it out. It does not! Sorry. Got confused with the silver bird-hologram that somehow stuck in my mind as a chip.... Apologies!!

So it looks like the chip cards are somehow limited. This will enable the bank to control the usage more tightly of course, particularly once they outfit all their ATMs with chip-readers. At that point the magnetic strip (if it has one?) will no longer be required.

Double-checked the other cards too, and all have chips, and can be used in any ATM. However the chip is typically used during eftpos-transactions in my experience, In Asutralia, only HSBC ATMs have chip readers far as I know.

[BB1955]

"The bank then sent us back to the police with the ATM number for them to investigate further as the ATM isn't a Bangkok Bank ATM."

"I feel that this is Bangkok Bank's responsibility as it was their ATM that had been scammed"

????????

Accounts linked to ATM cards are best kept with very small balances to minimize any possible losses, particularly since few people read/understand what their contract with the bank says about who is responsible for losses under the various possible situations of loss.

Sometimes these problems here are not a card scanner but a bank employee.

Anyway, you might benefit from working this further with your bank and possibly the police before you try to get a lawyer.

>I use an atm alot to draw for my daily expences . But I have two accounts I keep the bulk of my money in the account that does not have an atm card and transfer it at the bank. Your atm card could have been scaned about anywhere I have also read where there are devices now that can read the card while its still in your wallet so whats safe anymore who knows ....

Excellent responses.

YES, portable scanners are now small enough to be in a briefcase and can scan from many feet away. The best protection is to keep very little in an ATM machine. Much banking can now be done via the internet. NEED MONEY - use a computer to transfer and an ATM to put it in hand..

I do one even better , I dont trust internet banking where a atm card is linked even if it cant acess the funds . I have my main bulk money account set up so I can view it on the internet with the same account that has the atm card and I can do online transfers from the account with the atm card which then sends me an sms with a code I have to enter . But my bulk money I must appear in person at the bank with my bank book to transfer . I am amazed at the amount of papers the bank ends up with when I do a withdrawl or transfer ...... All of my direct deposits go to Bangkok Bank of NY which is FDIC insured so I feel pretty safe . But in this day and age expect the un expected anything can happen ....

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Oops - my bad!! I was sure the card had a chip but did not have it in my wallet. Went to the suitcase and got it out. It does not! Sorry. Got confused with the silver bird-hologram that somehow stuck in my mind as a chip.... Apologies!!

So it looks like the chip cards are somehow limited. This will enable the bank to control the usage more tightly of course, particularly once they outfit all their ATMs with chip-readers. At that point the magnetic strip (if it has one?) will no longer be required.

Double-checked the other cards too, and all have chips, and can be used in any ATM. However the chip is typically used during eftpos-transactions in my experience, In Asutralia, only HSBC ATMs have chip readers far as I know.

I'd like to better understand the technology that BKK Bank is using in their Be1st SMART card, and why it isn't compatible with other banks' ATMs in Thailand.

From what I'm reading elsewhere about chipped cards, they typically still come with magnetic strips that allow them to be used in POS terminals that don't support chip reading. And of course at other bank ATMs, a PIN is required anyway for cash withdrawals.

Here's an example of U.S. credit union that's converted to a chip enabled VISA debit card (though it's not clear whether it's a "chip and PIN" or "chip and signature" type card. And the info re the card states:

Will chip card transactions be conducted differently than magnetic stripe transactions?

Members can expect to see minor changes when conducting a chip transaction at a chip enabled terminal:

• The card is inserted into the device or terminal rather than swiped.
• The card remains in the terminal for the duration of the transaction.
• Follow the terminal prompts as you do today.

Is the magnetic stripe on the card being eliminated?

The magnetic stripe will remain on your SECU Visa Check

Debit Card to allow you to use your cards at ATMs and store terminals

that have not yet been upgraded, and in countries

that have not been migrated to chip technology. Magnetic

stripe technology continues to be a secure method of payment for

consumers.

Will my chip card be accepted at all terminals?

Yes, chip cards will continue to have a magnetic stripe so the card will work at non-chip terminals.

Will I be able to use my chip card as I do today as a magnetic stripe card?

Yes. Many countries have already successfully adopted chip

technology and your SECU Visa Check Debit Card will be fully compatible

with these systems. In the US or other

countries that have yet to switch to chip technology,

cardholders will be able to use their cards since the chip cards will

still have a magnetic stripe.

https://www.ncsecu.org/Cards/NewChipTechnology.html

So what is BKK Bank doing differently with their SMART card?

[AhFarangJa]

My visa was cloned at swampy, 4000 pounds taken using atm in the phillipines. The Thai bank wasn't really interested. I obtained an atm card for my Kasikorn bank account, so I did not have to use my Jerset one and asked who was liable for fraud, they told me if money was taken out of the atm it was my responsibility. So only small amounts in there now, and also a Thai lawyer would cost a fortune with no guarantees of the outcome.

I wish you all the best in recovering your money ( luckily my Jersey bank is refunding the monies courtesy of Visa)

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

That's the most compelling reason for using home country cards vs. Thai bank cards.

With Thai bank cards, the cardholder is held responsible for any fraud, up to their card limits, until they've filed a report with their bank.

With a lot of home country cards, as long as the cardholder reports the card lost or stolen or suspected fraud as soon as they become aware of it, they have little or no financial liability.

The newer chipped cards have the advantage that they're more difficult to clone, and the chip limits their potential misuse by criminals.

As for theft, if someone has a chip and signature card, it seems to me that that wouldn't be any better than the regular swipe and sign magnetic strip cards, because no merchants here pay attention to the validity of the signature anyway.

But at least with a chip and PIN card, presumably, even if a thief got ahold of your card, presumably, they wouldn't know your PIN and wouldn't be able to use the card too much without it.

Of course, the case of the OP in this thread, somehow, the thief was able to find the cardholder's PIN in order to make an ATM cash withdrawal.

Wonder how that could have happened, and would it have been any different if he'd been using a chipped card instead?

Edited March 18, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[rene123]

There is a similar topic on the tv general forum about a certain Thai bank that won't be held responsible for fraud after April first. Thai banks almost force you to use their ATM machines rather than taking money out at the bank itself. It's easy enough to prior plan how much money you need and then use the bank teller rather than an ATM machine. Back in Canada I use my VISA card almost exclusively and seldom use cash at all... even though I always carry about $100 for incidentals.

[amexpat]

Do people feel safer walking out of a bank with a wad of cash for upcoming expenses?

[eyecatcher]

Following the above advice; yesterday I too went to open an additional savings account. The girl asked if I wanted ATM card to which I said no and then asked her to transfer about 95% over from one account to the new one.

took 15 minutes, they just needed to copy my passport.

thanks guys for that great avice. I feel safer now

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just be aware, Thai law protects your Thai bank deposits from the financial failure of the bank, up to a certain amount per accountholder per bank.

But the law here does little or nothing in reality to protect the account holder, especially farangs, from theft or fraud by Thai bank employees, who have been known to steal funds from their own banks' accounts through various means.

Edited March 19, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[eyecatcher]

But the law here does little or nothing in reality to protect the account holder, especially farangs, from theft or fraud by Thai bank employees, who have been known to steal funds from their own banks' accounts through various means.

Well if funds go missing and they cannot show me their copy of the withdrawal slip, completed by myself then the $h1t will hit the fan big time..

Edited March 19, 2013 by eyecatcher

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

If that ever happens, good luck in trying to get your funds restored from the bank, or from, even better, the police or courts.

There was a case a year or so back where a Thai woman had more than 100 million baht looted from her account by a branch manager, who later disappeared.

The bank issued a public statement at the time saying they weren't responsible for the criminal wrongdoing of the manager.

[PoodMaiDai]

I was skimmed in Pattaya a few years ago. They took out the max every day for a few days until I noticed it. The US bank (Chase) reimbursed me after a pile of paperwork then closed my account simply stating they no longer wanted my business.

Once thing some of the banks can do here is send you a SMS messages every time there is a deposit or withdraw from your account. That way you know when something is taken out. Ask your bank about it, I know Siam Commercial does it.

[Mousehound]

My cards are now all chip. I have also just purchased a new wallet - this comes with an anti skim mesh.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

As mentioned above, there are two major types of "chip" cards... chip and PIN.... and chip and signature.

While both protect against skimming due to the embedded microchip, a chip and signature card still could be used for fraudulent purchases if it fell into the wrong hands, since the card allows POS purchases via signature instead of numeric PIN.

I can't tell which kind the various Thai banks are using for their credit cards. Fewer of them, including the exception of BKK Bank, seem to be using chipped cards for their debit cards.

Edited March 19, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[britgent]

I am going through the same process with Bangkok Bank right now.

I used my UK bank card in the following Bangkok Bank ATM's:

Airport

Nimman

Santitham

I planned to withdraw 10,000 each time. It showed the transactions as going through but I received no monies.

Currently the UK financial ombudsman is dealing with this as my UK bank and Bangkok Bank have proved useless.

I am hoping to see some joy soon as it has been ongoing for a while and I am several hundred pounds out of pocket because of it.

I reckon its a scam either by Bangkok Bank or an ATM service person.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I'm pretty certain the bank's financial records system is able to detect/determine whether an ATM had a faulty transaction where the card was debited but no bills were produced.

Likewise, I'm also pretty certain each bank ATM has a video surveillance system that could show whether you took any funds away from the ATM, though I don't know how long that video evidence is maintained.

If you're getting nowhere with the local branches, contact the BKK Bank head office in Bangkok and ask for the fraud department. If you haven't already done so, you might also ask to speak with the branch manager at the locations where you had the problems.

I know ATM errors do happen from time to time, but it would seem very unsual for that kind of error to happen with the same person and same card at three different ATMs in different locations all belonging to the same bank.

Edited March 20, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[monty]

I've had this happen a few times already (funds debited but not disbursed).

At an atm from my own bank (Bkk Bank) it took 2 days for the refund and once with a different bank's atm it took about a week.

Never any discussion.

Anyways, I'll stick with Bkk Bank's Be1st smart (chip&pin) card and happily accept the drawback of only being able to use Bkk Bank atm's...

[KRS1]

I use an atm alot to draw for my daily expences . But I have two accounts I keep the bulk of my money in the account that does not have an atm card and transfer it at the bank. Your atm card could have been scaned about anywhere I have also read where there are devices now that can read the card while its still in your wallet so whats safe anymore who knows ....

If this is true we have reached the days of x-ray vision, so what else are they looking at and, where do we buy into such equipment because most will want one !

its true for the smart chip cards. Not for the magnetic strip cards though.

I only make my foreign bank atm cards accessible to my checking acoount, and only transfer online what i want to withdraw into my checking account from my savings account.

Edited March 20, 2013 by KRS1

[up2you2]

After having done masses of research on this subject, I would respectively suggest you go to the following link, to increase your chances that you will not end up as another victim:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/649648-a-safer-way-to-use-an-atm-in-thailand/

[wrbc]

earlier this year i took out 12000 baht from the atm machine by tha pae gate. at least that is what my receipt said. but no money came out! when i told the girl at the money change booth of the same bank, she looked stunned, as if she didnt know what to do. i said i want my money. she had me wait for an hour and something on the street while she waited for someone in the bank to call her. when i finally was able to talk to someone on her phone, they said it was not their problem, i should contact my bank back in canada.

huh? not their fault that their atm was charging me but giving me no money?

the short of it was that i contacted my bank and then had to wait for 6 months till it was checked.

unbelievable.

[PoodMaiDai]

BTW, as alluded to above, BKK Bank does offer its customers the choice of two different kinds of ATM cards.

1. the traditional kind with a magnetic strip only, which are easily skimmed but also can be widely used in all kinds of ATMs by you the accountholder.

2. a microchip and PIN-based card that, in Thailand, only works in BKK Bank ATMs, not those of other banks. But it uses that technology to prevent card skimming.

AFAIK, BKK Bank is the only Thai bank at present to offer the chip-enabled ATM card.

Apparently, the RFID chip in cards can be scanned and copied easily without anyone even touching it.

Google "RFID scanning" and "RFID theft" and be prepared to be shocked.

[scorecard]

I use an atm alot to draw for my daily expences . But I have two accounts I keep the bulk of my money in the account that does not have an atm card and transfer it at the bank. Your atm card could have been scaned about anywhere I have also read where there are devices now that can read the card while its still in your wallet so whats safe anymore who knows ....

If this is true we have reached the days of x-ray vision, so what else are they looking at and, where do we buy into such equipment because most will want one !

There have been several threads on TV in the past, some quite recent on this subject:

- Stories about people who easily / quickly install very small readers into ATM machines and they use the information to get your money.

- Stories quoting websites etc., where you can buy this equipment, and more.

Several Thai banks claim that when you sign for an ATM card you acknowledge there is risk and you accept the risk, totally. In many countries banks could not do this, but TIT.

Like many others, I now keep a very small amount in an account with an ATM card, and I keep 99% of my funds in an account with no ATM card.

There are many banks with full branches in numerous shopping malls etc., open late / open 7 days a week, I've now made it a habit, every time I go to a mall, to check the balance in my account which has an ATM card, and if needed go into the banks and do a quick transfer.

Yes it's a small nuisance but worth the nuisance.