Atm Fraud - Lawyers

[Pillion]

Hello all.

Unfortunately I've had my bank account drained via an ATM, about 31k Baht.

I transferred some money and took out 1 thousand baht at a Bangkok Bank ATM in airport plaza. and I had 31k left in the bank. The next day I went to ATM and I had 240 baht left, oh dear. So I took my passbook to be updated and saw that someone had withdrawn all of my money. So my wife and I went to the Bangkok Bank Airport Plaza branch (as it was a Sunday) and asked what had happened. Their response in a round about way was that my wife had taken my ATM card out of my wallet, ran to the ATM, withdrew all the cash and put my ATM card back in wallet without me knowing. I told them that we had been together all the time since I last used the ATM. They told us it was impossible that someone could do it without my ATM card and my PIN number - great help they were.

So we went to the police, they suspect a card scanner in the ATM I used and they gave us a police report and sent us back to my branch in Sanpakoy. The Sanpakoy branch were quite helpful and made some phone calls and found out that the ATM used to withdraw all my cash is in Bangkok. The bank then sent us back to the police with the ATM number for them to investigate further as the ATM isn't a Bangkok Bank ATM.

So the police have said that they will look at the camera on that ATM and let us know. No guarantees of me getting my money back as it depends on the quality of the camera and if they can catch the person.

Has anyone else had any experience of this here in Thailand? And can anyone recommend a decent lawyer and their cost? As I feel that this is Bangkok Bank's responsibility as it was their ATM that had been scammed and I'd like to know my chances of getting my money back.

Thanks for your help!

Edited March 16, 2013 by Pillion

[eyecatcher]

I thought most atm dispensers had daily limits of how much can be withdrawn.; and 31k bht to withdraw in a uk cash machine woud need to be over at least 2 days; is that correct.

If a card skimmer is suspected, did you go back to atm; ask the bank staff to check it.

I use the atm as infrequently as possible, and only in emergency if the bank itself is shut as I am paranoid about fraud like this...but its true PIN numbers are irrevelent to the criminals, they can read them easily.

Edited March 16, 2013 by eyecatcher

[Ulysses G.]

I don't like to use ATMs for just this reason. My Thai staff think that I am paranoid and they may have a point, but it sounds like a headache trying to get your money back from the bank.

[Dante99]

"The bank then sent us back to the police with the ATM number for them to investigate further as the ATM isn't a Bangkok Bank ATM."

"I feel that this is Bangkok Bank's responsibility as it was their ATM that had been scammed"

????????

Accounts linked to ATM cards are best kept with very small balances to minimize any possible losses, particularly since few people read/understand what their contract with the bank says about who is responsible for losses under the various possible situations of loss.

Sometimes these problems here are not a card scanner but a bank employee.

Anyway, you might benefit from working this further with your bank and possibly the police before you try to get a lawyer.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Dante99

[BB1955]

I use an atm alot to draw for my daily expences . But I have two accounts I keep the bulk of my money in the account that does not have an atm card and transfer it at the bank. Your atm card could have been scaned about anywhere I have also read where there are devices now that can read the card while its still in your wallet so whats safe anymore who knows ....

[onthedarkside]

In my opinion there is little you can do and to spend money on a lawyer is just throwing away more money.

[trainman34014]

I use an atm alot to draw for my daily expences . But I have two accounts I keep the bulk of my money in the account that does not have an atm card and transfer it at the bank. Your atm card could have been scaned about anywhere I have also read where there are devices now that can read the card while its still in your wallet so whats safe anymore who knows ....

If this is true we have reached the days of x-ray vision, so what else are they looking at and, where do we buy into such equipment because most will want one !

[hellodolly]

In my opinion there is little you can do and to spend money on a lawyer is just throwing away more money.

I would think before it was all over the lawyer would cost more than the 31,000 baht. that is provided you got it back.

At a guess I would figure the whole thing to come in at a net loss to the OP of over 60,000 baht.

[silverhawk_usa]

I use an atm alot to draw for my daily expences . But I have two accounts I keep the bulk of my money in the account that does not have an atm card and transfer it at the bank. Your atm card could have been scaned about anywhere I have also read where there are devices now that can read the card while its still in your wallet so whats safe anymore who knows ....

I do the same, except, for convenience, I transfer money from my account to the ATM account online. But, only on my home computer.

[chuang]

Some times back some ATMs of Bank X in Singapore were compromised and substantial amount of monies were withdrawn...Bank X reimbruised all the account holders that were affected....they finally caught the malaysian culprits....

[hml367]

Pillion,

I sent you a PM.

MSPain

[lopburi3]

1. The normal daily withdrawal via ATM is 50,000 baht - this is not the US or USA with only a small daily limit as the norm.

2. Although police may get a photo they are not likely to be able to do much beyond that. In our case of a withdrawal in Chiang Mai "looks like a hill-tribe person".

3. A normal ATM card with mag tape is not going to be copied in your pocket.

4. Have you used that card for any thing other than ATM use? Skimmers are found on ATM's but it is not as common these days as most machines are protected and inspected often. But always best to use in or outside bank for even less chance. And always try to cover fingers when putting in PIN. It won't prevent a keyboard tap but will work for most camera or personal observation. Also good to change often (you can easily do at the ATM).

5. Do not believe lawyer would be worth the cost - but I would continue to try and convince account holding bank to make good if they did not try to provide a chip type ATM card for your account (which can prevent such skimmers and which Bangkok Bank has available). If they had offered this and your chose not to use suspect you would have a hard time even with a lawyer.

It is a real pain and often a shock that banks here do not offer the protection we may have believed. But in fact most of us have never had this happen and probably will not.

[Sandman77]

And when someone hack my bank acount bank also not pay in Thailand ?

Try to bring the report from police with picture from security camera to the travel insurance !

The situation is same when some broke a house door and take the money only on a virtual way

Chancel your credit card, and make a new one with another number imidiatly!

Report it to tv and newspaper!

[NickMatalski]

The same thing happened to me. I lost $3000CAD in 2011 on a 4 month trip there. My bank thought I was lying. So I lost it all.

[BB1955]

1. The normal daily withdrawal via ATM is 50,000 baht - this is not the US or USA with only a small daily limit as the norm.

2. Although police may get a photo they are not likely to be able to do much beyond that. In our case of a withdrawal in Chiang Mai "looks like a hill-tribe person".

3. A normal ATM card with mag tape is not going to be copied in your pocket.

4. Have you used that card for any thing other than ATM use? Skimmers are found on ATM's but it is not as common these days as most machines are protected and inspected often. But always best to use in or outside bank for even less chance. And always try to cover fingers when putting in PIN. It won't prevent a keyboard tap but will work for most camera or personal observation. Also good to change often (you can easily do at the ATM).

5. Do not believe lawyer would be worth the cost - but I would continue to try and convince account holding bank to make good if they did not try to provide a chip type ATM card for your account (which can prevent such skimmers and which Bangkok Bank has available). If they had offered this and your chose not to use suspect you would have a hard time even with a lawyer.

It is a real pain and often a shock that banks here do not offer the protection we may have believed. But in fact most of us have never had this happen and probably will not.

Good article on how to protect your credit cards while they are in your pocket

http://blog.unibulmerchantservices.com/how-criminals-can-steal-your-credit-card-without-ever-touching-it/

[sungod]

1. The normal daily withdrawal via ATM is 50,000 baht - this is not the US or USA with only a small daily limit as the norm.

2. Although police may get a photo they are not likely to be able to do much beyond that. In our case of a withdrawal in Chiang Mai "looks like a hill-tribe person".

3. A normal ATM card with mag tape is not going to be copied in your pocket.

4. Have you used that card for any thing other than ATM use? Skimmers are found on ATM's but it is not as common these days as most machines are protected and inspected often. But always best to use in or outside bank for even less chance. And always try to cover fingers when putting in PIN. It won't prevent a keyboard tap but will work for most camera or personal observation. Also good to change often (you can easily do at the ATM).

5. Do not believe lawyer would be worth the cost - but I would continue to try and convince account holding bank to make good if they did not try to provide a chip type ATM card for your account (which can prevent such skimmers and which Bangkok Bank has available). If they had offered this and your chose not to use suspect you would have a hard time even with a lawyer.

It is a real pain and often a shock that banks here do not offer the protection we may have believed. But in fact most of us have never had this happen and probably will not.

Good article on how to protect your credit cards while they are in your pocket

http://blog.unibulmerchantservices.com/how-criminals-can-steal-your-credit-card-without-ever-touching-it/

Never let the card out of your sight when paying for goods, a tactic is the take it out the back and copy your details

[KBAA]

Another reason not to trust Thai banks !

They give a dam shit in that you had lost your money !

You can also get your daily limit changed here in Thailand, my wife have one card where it is 500.000 Baht per day.

All other we had set to 20.000 so if any steal more then 20K in one day, it is the banks problem.

I mostly use my Danish cards, they are protected, so i will never loose any money if some steal my card etc. or scan it.

17 years here with foreign cards and only had problems once, some in USA stole 69 USD. so it had been scanned somewhere, got a new card by DHL money back on account and it did only cost me one mail !

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

To the OP... sympathize for your loss... A couple of thoughts for you and others:

--For all intents and purposes, Thailand has no meaningful consumer protection laws relating to banking/ATM/credit card fraud. The Thai banks all take the position that you, the cardholder, are responsible for anything that happens with your card until AFTER you have reported its loss or theft or whatever to the issuing bank.

--Based on past member reports here, the local bank branches have a history of being pretty unhelpful for customers in your situation or similar, nor is it surprising to me that they either said or suggested that someone in your family was responsible. (Sorry to say, but the banks probably say or suggest that because it often turns out to be true, much to the dismay/surprise of the account holder).

--The bank does have an anti-fraud department at the main BKK HQ in BKK, and some members have had some success in escalating things to them. It can't hurt, but under your circumstances, it probably won't help either.

--As others have said above, for 30,000 baht or about $1000 U.S., trying to engage a lawyer -- even if you could find a competent one knowledgeable about bank fraud issues -- probably wouldn't make economic sense.

--For someone who's staying in Thailand and who feels the need to use Thai bank ATM cards (instead of those from your home country that likely have far greater consumer protection provisions), the approach suggested above of keeping one non-ATM card account with most of your funds and then transferring as needed into a low balance ATM card account is about the best you can do.

--Another smart move for anyone carrying a Thai bank ATM card is to have the POS (Point of Sale) daily purchase limit set on the card to $0, meaning it can't be used for POS. BKK Bank allows customers to do that via their telephone banking system. POS fraud is probably much more common, as the thieves only need your card or card number, but not your PIN. In your case, obviously, someone gained access to your 4 digit PIN somehow, enabling them to make an ATM cash withdrawal. You also can adjust your daily ATM withdrawal limit choosing among several preset amounts.

--Personally, I keep no meaningful funds in any Thai bank account, and use my home country ATM cards exclusively. Had the same thing happened to me with my U.S. bank ATM cards, my bank either would have been required to reimburse me 100% for the loss, or at most I'd have to pay $50 of the loss under federal law, depending on how promptly I reported the fraud to the bank after becoming aware of it. Something to think about in deciding what kind of bank card to carry.

--Be aware, the fact that you had used a BKK Bank ATM in CM the day before you noticed the loss doesn't necessarily mean that's when your card and PIN code information was compromised. It could have been then/there, but it also could have been via some earlier, prior transaction or activity.

--Also be aware, it's not uncommon here (and elsewhere, of course) for some bank employee to be engaged in fraud, by providing customers confidential account info to outsiders, or stealing funds out of accountholders accounts, or various other means of fraud. It seems, you know how/where your cash was withdrawn from your account. But it also seems you don't know how the thief/thieves were able to get the info needed to do that.

Edited March 16, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[T_Dog]

I have an acquaintance that lost quite a bit of money due to an ATM skimmer. He had noticed that ATM was different but used it anyway. Best way to be safe is to:

-Always use the same ATM machine.

-Be familiar with what it looks like.

-Look for changes in the area or on the machine, people loitering, or anything different.

The skimmers are quite small and look like they are part of the ATM. Check out this link for more information.

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2011/july/atm_071411

By the way, the "operators" usually install it, get a few good clients, and then leave quite quickly.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The OP asked if anyone had had similar experiences here... The answer of course is yes, and here are a couple of past threads:

Bangkok Bank Will Not Payback Fraudulent Pos Transactions W/Stolen Atm Card

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/513620-bangkok-bank-will-not-payback-fraudulent-pos-transactions-wstolen-atm-card/

Worker Withdraws 9 MillionTHB From Krung Thai Bank

http://www.pattayadailynews.com/en/2013/01/23/worker-withdraws-9-millionthb-from-krung-thai-bank/

Chonburi Lady Loses 15,000 THB To Faulty Bank ATM

http://www.pattayadailynews.com/en/2013/03/01/chonburi-lady-loses-15000-thb-to-faulty-bank-atm/

Must Read---- How My Friend Lost 15K Baht W His Bangkok Bank Debit Visa

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/619913-must-read-how-my-friend-lost-15k-baht-w-his-bangkok-bank-debit-visa/

Multi Million ATM Fraud 2 Frenchmen Arrested

http://www.pattayadailynews.com/en/2011/02/16/multi-million-atm-fraud-2-frenchmen-arrested/\

Nonthaburi Millionaire Reports 107 Million Baht Missing From Her Bank Account

http://www.pattayadailynews.com/en/2012/07/07/nonthaburi-millionaire-reports-107-million-baht-missing-from-her-bank-account/

BTW, as alluded to above, BKK Bank does offer its customers the choice of two different kinds of ATM cards.

1. the traditional kind with a magnetic strip only, which are easily skimmed but also can be widely used in all kinds of ATMs by you the accountholder.

2. a microchip and PIN-based card that, in Thailand, only works in BKK Bank ATMs, not those of other banks. But it uses that technology to prevent card skimming.

AFAIK, BKK Bank is the only Thai bank at present to offer the chip-enabled ATM card.

Edited March 16, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[thaikahuna]

"The bank then sent us back to the police with the ATM number for them to investigate further as the ATM isn't a Bangkok Bank ATM."

"I feel that this is Bangkok Bank's responsibility as it was their ATM that had been scammed"

How can it be Bangkok bank responsibility if as you say, it is not their ATM?

[Rionoir]

1. The normal daily withdrawal via ATM is 50,000 baht - this is not the US or USA with only a small daily limit as the norm.

Even in Thailand, I can only withdraw up to 300 USD using my ATM card (US bank account). So if my card were ever stolen my bank would never give them $1000+ even if they had my pin.

[elektrified]

I have an acquaintance that lost quite a bit of money due to an ATM skimmer. He had noticed that ATM was different but used it anyway. Best way to be safe is to:

-Always use the same ATM machine.

-Be familiar with what it looks like.

-Look for changes in the area or on the machine, people loitering, or anything different.

The skimmers are quite small and look like they are part of the ATM. Check out this link for more information.

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2011/july/atm_071411

By the way, the "operators" usually install it, get a few good clients, and then leave quite quickly.

Wow, based on the photos on that link,. I would never know anything was unusual about the ATM! We will all have to be more careful now,. I'm going to open another account now like the others mentioned as I always use my only account here at Kasikorn Bank, use the ATM card to pay at Rimping, etc.

OP, VERY sorry to hear about what happened. I agree that the lawyer is most likely a waste of time and money but that perhaps getting a Thai friend who is well spoken, articulate, etc. to call the bank a few times and find out the name of someone in a position to help and then pursue that. I have found that often people who work in branches are useless and not interested in helping. I had another bank problem one time (not theft-related) and had a Thai friend contact the manager at the main branch of Kasikorn Bank and discuss the matter with her. After about a month, she personally resolved the situation. We followed up with a small gift. Somehow I think if I tackled it alone, nothing would have happened.

[harrry]

"The bank then sent us back to the police with the ATM number for them to investigate further as the ATM isn't a Bangkok Bank ATM."

"I feel that this is Bangkok Bank's responsibility as it was their ATM that had been scammed"

How can it be Bangkok bank responsibility if as you say, it is not their ATM?

The ATM has been authorised by the Bangkok bank as their aproved method of communication so of course the Bangkok Bank can be liable. They of course have a claim against their agent who supplied th atm.

[TheScribe]

Sorry to hear about your loss. Hope it works out and you get your money back.

Things to do to protect yourself from this kind of thing in the future:

1) Set a low daily limit on your ATM card. (If you need more, take bankbook and passport to your branch).

2) Set up SMS notification for all activities over 1000THB for all your accounts.

3) Set up 2-part authentication for all online transactions over 1000THB. This means the bank sends a code to your mobile phone that you have to type in on your web session. Thieves have to steal your password AND your phone.

Constant vigilance is the price we pay for not getting robbed.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The ATM has been authorised by the Bangkok bank as their aproved method

of communication so of course the Bangkok Bank can be liable. They of

course have a claim against their agent who supplied th atm.

Thai banks typically don't accept financial responsibility for account fraud even when their own employees are directly responsible.

So I doubt very much any bank here is going to accept financial responsibility if one of their ATMs is surveiled or has a skimming device attached, and then a fraudulent withdrawal is made from a different bank's ATM.

And frankly, the OP doesn't know, and probably has no way of proving, how or where his card info was compromised.

This below is one of my favorite paragraphs from the news report above about a Thai woman who lost 100+ million baht from her SCB account, apparently by a criminal bank manager...

However, the bank would like to reassure customers that it has

operated for more than 100 years, and customers should understand that

this case involves only one staff member. The bank itself has not been

found to be at fault for any wrongdoing related to this matter, and is

fully cooperating with the police to clear the injustice in this case.

Pol. Col. Prasopchok said he would like to warn people to keep track

of the money in their bank books and should not rely on any one person

at the bank, including a manager of the bank, to oversee their accounts.

Because when the problem occurred and the manager could not be

contacted, the bank could not quickly inspect how much money was in

account and what business transactions had been done.

I'm sure everyone involved feel much better hearing that answer from the bank.

Needless to say, never found any follow-up news report indicating whether or not the victim got any of her funds restored.

Edited March 16, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1. The normal daily withdrawal via ATM is 50,000 baht - this is not the US or USA with only a small daily limit as the norm.

Even in Thailand, I can only withdraw up to 300 USD using my ATM card (US bank account). So if my card were ever stolen my bank would never give them $1000+ even if they had my pin.

One of the advantages of using a home country bank card, instead of the Thai ones.

Unfortunately, as Lopburi points out above, Thai bank cards typically have higher ATM cash withdrawal limits, making them better targets for fraud.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1) Set a low daily limit on your ATM card. (If you need more, take bankbook and passport to your branch).

Unfortunately, at least at BKK Bank, this would not have helped the OP in this case...

That's because, right now, BKK Bank only allows 4 different daily limit settings for ATM cash withdrawals:

50,000, 100,000, 150,000 or 200,000 baht.

So any limit he could have set still would not have prevented the thief from cleaning out his account for 30,000 baht.

But for other folks, the risk of losing 50,000 baht per day certainly is better than the risk of losing up to 200,000 per day.

Or, as mentioned above, simply don't keep any meaningful amount of money in an ATM card-linked Thai bank account. If you have to keep funds in a Thai bank account, keep them in an account that is NOT linked to any ATM card.

Edited March 16, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[hellodolly]

The ATM has been authorised by the Bangkok bank as their aproved method

of communication so of course the Bangkok Bank can be liable. They of

course have a claim against their agent who supplied th atm.

Thai banks typically don't accept financial responsibility for account fraud even when their own employees are directly responsible.

So I doubt very much any bank here is going to accept financial responsibility if one of their ATMs is surveiled or has a skimming device attached, and then a fraudulent withdrawal is made from a different bank's ATM.

And frankly, the OP doesn't know, and probably has no way of proving, how or where his card info was compromised.

This below is one of my favorite paragraphs from the news report above about a Thai woman who lost 100+ million baht from her SCB account, apparently by a criminal bank manager...

>However, the bank would like to reassure customers that it has

operated for more than 100 years, and customers should understand that

this case involves only one staff member. The bank itself has not been

found to be at fault for any wrongdoing related to this matter, and is

fully cooperating with the police to clear the injustice in this case.

Pol. Col. Prasopchok said he would like to warn people to keep track

of the money in their bank books and should not rely on any one person

at the bank, including a manager of the bank, to oversee their accounts.

Because when the problem occurred and the manager could not be

contacted, the bank could not quickly inspect how much money was in

account and what business transactions had been done.

I'm sure everyone involved feel much better hearing that answer from the bank.

Needless to say, never found any follow-up news report indicating whether or not the victim got any of her funds restored.

You made a very excellent point here with

"And frankly, the OP doesn't know, and probably has no way of proving, how or where his card info was compromised."

It could have been stolen any time in the recent past.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I had my wallet pickpocketed on the BTS a year or two back, and the thieves got one U.S. ATM card and one U.S. credit card. In the approximate one hour it took me to get home and contact my banks to freeze those cards, the thieves rang up close to $1000 U.S. in charges at 5 or 6 shops in the Silom Complex mall. Fortunately, because they were U.S. bank cards and covered by U.S. law, I got all my funds restored within two weeks.

Had they been Thai bank cards, I most certainly would have lost close to $1,000. That's one good example of why I won't carry Thai bank cards that have any meaningful account balance in them.

But my main point is: in that instance of a stolen wallet, the thieves certainly knew I'd discover the theft soon (as I did when I tried to exit the BTS station and didn't have my BTS pass), thus they rushed to quickly do their fraud. In the OP's case, since the theft of his info apparently was done in a more covert/secretive way, he'd probably have no idea anything was wrong until the fraudulent withdrawals started showing up whether that was a day, a week or a month after the fact. And at that point, it's pretty much too late.