Water Storagetanks And Piping

[Negita43]

Maybe someone can advise me.

I have a half inch government mains supply and an 1000 litre tank with a 1 inch connection inlet and outlet this will go to an hitachi water pump which has a 1.25 inch inlet and outlet the pipework in my house is half inch.

clearly I have to reduce the feed side to the tank to half inch BUT what about the outlet from the tank to the pump do I make this 1 inch? And then what about from the pump to the household pipework do I reduce it at the pump outlet or where the house pipework starts.

I also intend to fit a sediment prefilter before the tank are these bottom feed or top feed over here?

Thanks

[bankruatsteve]

I would go with 1" between tank and pump. It doesn't really matter where the reduction is done but doing that at the pump would be my choice. There's different kinds of filters so you should check the in/out situation when you decide on one.

[Crossy]

Use as big a pipe as you can for the new stuff. I would run 1.25 from the tank to the pump (reducing to 1" at the tank end), and the same at the pump outlet, reducing to suit the house pipework as late as possible.

Every bit of big pipe you can use will improve your flow rate, how much of a difference you'll see depends upon the length of the pipe runs.

Our whole-house crunchy-bits filter is top feed.

EDIT I see a difference of opinion already

[overherebc]

One thing to take a look at beside your pipe sizes is the lever joint on the ballcock system at the top of the tank.

In many cases the split pin that holds the ball lever in place is a small split pin made from steel that corrodes very quickly, it sits in the 'splash zone'. When it snaps, as it will, usually at 2am or other un-godly hour you end up with a swimming pool in the garden that you didn't order, been there.

It's a simple exercise to change it out with a stainless pin

[Negita43]

Thanks OverherebC good thought.

Thanks also Bankruatsteve and Crossy

Hey Crossy I thought electric and water didn't mix!! and ps the wiring is almost finished and so far so good only 1 reversed live and neutral (Home pro sell an extension lead which will show this and if there is no earth - well worth the 500 baht

[Negita43]

Another question about tanks and water. I've just looked at my neighbours instalation and he only uses the water in the tank when his supply is stopped otherwise he pumps the mains supply. I had planned to pump the tank contents all the time. Is this OK?

Also I plan to install a whole house activated carbon unit. I notice on the Thai complete systems that they put this before the tank - to me that seems not logical since the activated carbon will eliminate chlorine and to be honest I would rather keep the chlorine in the water whilst it's being stored in a tank (sometimes I might be away for a month)

Also if I opt for a system the same as my neighbours (which I would rather not) then the water could be in the tank for a long time and would be better chlorinated than not.

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

[bankruatsteve]

Another question about tanks and water. I've just looked at my neighbours instalation and he only uses the water in the tank when his supply is stopped otherwise he pumps the mains supply. I had planned to pump the tank contents all the time. Is this OK? Also I plan to install a whole house activated carbon unit. I notice on the Thai complete systems that they put this before the tank - to me that seems not logical since the activated carbon will eliminate chlorine and to be honest I would rather keep the chlorine in the water whilst it's being stored in a tank (sometimes I might be away for a month) Also if I opt for a system the same as my neighbours (which I would rather not) then the water could be in the tank for a long time and would be better chlorinated than not. Anybody have any thoughts on this?

What I did was configure the plumbing to take from source: main, bore pump, tank to house/outside faucets in any configuration. Which just takes a little thought and cutoffs in the right place. To your question: if you have a pump to supply the house, why not always take from the tank? Just have the main set up to fill it with a stopcock. I wouldn't bother with the activated carbon filter for the whole house supply. Just put a cap of bleach into your tank every 500 liter or so turnover. Depending on where you are you could probably drink that but the alternatives for potable water are many and perhaps "safer".

[kyrre]

Make a x over so you can switch from tank/pump to public supply. Even if the pressure is low you can switch over if your tank / pump fails or is in need for maintenance..

[Crossy]

The usual way of doing it:-

The non return valve (which provides automatic switch over to city water if the pump is dead) could be a regular stop valve (normally off) to lower the cost (NR valves tend to leak a bit too).

[monty]

The usual way of doing it:-The non return valve (which provides automatic switch over to city water if the pump is dead) could be a regular stop valve (normally off) to lower the cost (NR valves tend to leak a bit too).

Same as at my house, only I swapped the non return valve (check valve called here), for a regular manual valve.

With a leaking check valve (happens quite often) you're pumping water in circles all the time....

[Crossy]

@Negita. It's unwise (and illegal) to pump direct from the mains, you could draw dirty water into the public supply, not something you want.

Think if your neighbour is filling his fish pond and has the end of the hose under the water. You start your pump and pull down the pressure in the supply pipe, it will happily draw water from his fish pond into the mains

We have a simple crunchy-bits filter on our incoming supply but that water is not used for drinking, the Sprinkle man brings big bottles of drinking water for a nominal fee.

[rawhod]

Another question about tanks and water. I've just looked at my neighbours instalation and he only uses the water in the tank when his supply is stopped otherwise he pumps the mains supply. I had planned to pump the tank contents all the time. Is this OK? Also I plan to install a whole house activated carbon unit. I notice on the Thai complete systems that they put this before the tank - to me that seems not logical since the activated carbon will eliminate chlorine and to be honest I would rather keep the chlorine in the water whilst it's being stored in a tank (sometimes I might be away for a month) Also if I opt for a system the same as my neighbours (which I would rather not) then the water could be in the tank for a long time and would be better chlorinated than not. Anybody have any thoughts on this?

We don't yet have a tank and a pump yet, there are only two of us and when the water is out we use water from a large earthenware storage jar in the kitchen. But I have been considering the various systems...

When our water goes off, it is inevitably a breakage in the large supply pipe. After the repair, the initial water flow generally is brown and contains the typical brown sediment that enters the pipe at the repair site. If we have a system which is in continuous use, the tank will automatically fill with this contaminated water. So I was considering installing a manually operated system for use only when the main supply is down.

[mrbojangles]

We have a simple crunchy-bits filter on our incoming supply but that water is not used for drinking,

I was going to mention that, as we have the same set up and it's the only bit missing on your diagram.

[Beardog]

@Negita. It's unwise (and illegal) to pump direct from the mains, you could draw dirty water into the public supply, not something you want.

Think if your neighbour is filling his fish pond and has the end of the hose under the water. You start your pump and pull down the pressure in the supply pipe, it will happily draw water from his fish pond into the mains

We have a simple crunchy-bits filter on our incoming supply but that water is not used for drinking, the Sprinkle man brings big bottles of drinking water for a nominal fee.

Agree with your assesment Crossy. Never pump directly of the districts water supply line. We had to do this in Pattaya when our tank decomposed & the owner wouldn't replace the tank so I hooked it up directly to get by for a month till we moved & it pumped some of the most nastiest black goo you ever did see. Not a good idea even on a very short term basis!

[bbradsby]

anybody have a diagram for a system where there is a well with submersible pump, instead of a public water main, with elevated in-line storage tank? I can see how an additional pump may be required between tank & house to increase water pressure for the house, depending on tank elevation above the points of use (head pressure). I don't want to by-pass the tanks and pump directly from the well, as the water in the tank would get stale.

[Ackybang]

Another question about tanks and water. I've just looked at my neighbours instalation and he only uses the water in the tank when his supply is stopped otherwise he pumps the mains supply. I had planned to pump the tank contents all the time. Is this OK? Also I plan to install a whole house activated carbon unit. I notice on the Thai complete systems that they put this before the tank - to me that seems not logical since the activated carbon will eliminate chlorine and to be honest I would rather keep the chlorine in the water whilst it's being stored in a tank (sometimes I might be away for a month) Also if I opt for a system the same as my neighbours (which I would rather not) then the water could be in the tank for a long time and would be better chlorinated than not. Anybody have any thoughts on this?

Hello, Negita43.

It's okay to pump your water all the time, especially if you want to clean it first - but might prove costly over time - I believe an inverter constant pressure pump might be better, quieter and more cost effective for your needs, over the long term.

In my experience in dealing with City water and filters, I wouldn't worry too much about placing the filter before the tank, afterall, that's the way it should be done, and City water is usually well over-chlorinated. The only time you would place a filter after a tank, would be in the event of that being a settling tank, for extremely dirty water, to filter water slowly into another holding tank before use, after the water had settled. To try and push water through a filter at any sort of real pressure would be a pointless exercise, and very inefficient / ineffective use of a filter.

Get yourself a dema, or similar filter - a cylindrical upright stainless or fiberglass / plastic tube - around 50 liters, with complete top access to the filter medium - this is important to have a lid that comes completely off the thing, and not just a porthole, for ease of (re)filling, when the medium loses its effectiveness, and inevitable backwashing, where after time, and if your pump isn't powerful enough to agitate the medium sufficiently, and to avoid ' channeling' - you would find a copper earthing rod ideal to stir the medium, under pressure, to clean the medium more effectively, and help it to last longer - it seems to get more 'sticky' with age. These filters traditionally have a 4 valve seup, to reverse the flow for cleaning - this size typically uses 1/2 inch fittings - in / out.

Invariably, you should turn the flow rate right down, and slow filter the water through the medium - slower, the cleaner - and then into the tank, for pumping, or gravity feed, or both. I guarantee, it will still have chlorine deposits in it - also a silver lined tank, of which are quite popular now, can mitigate a lot of bacteria in water - although, I'm not sure overtime, silver nano deposits wouldn't leech into the water, and compromise health. I don't think this area has been thoroughly studied.

I would perhaps have your water tested - many bespoke water related businesses selling filters, etc can test / analyse it for you before you select your medium to suit - you can mix them on a filter, too, unless there are really heavy traces of certain contaminents in it that you don't want, in which case a couple of units in series might be prudent. Usually in this Country, you would find quite a lot of iron oxide in your water, or tannins, which can be mitigated with manganese green sand, or zeolite - natural sand is a very good filter - carbon is good for taking smell and certain taints out, and some (not all) bacteria. There are many resins available, all at different micron ratings to deal with many different things. If your water is iron rich - don't put bleach in it, or in your washing machine on a whites wash - your clothes will turn rusty.

Don't drink government water - maybe use it to brush your teeth, after filtering, or drink if it's been through an RO / UV system.

If you don't believe me - check out the crap coming out of your filter on a weekly backwash, even when a glass of the water appears clean. Every now and then, depending on use - take the lid off, and backwash whilst stirring the medium - you would probably find a hard crust of chlorine on top, to break through first, followed by other nefarious substances. Always loop the filtered tank water back to filter for backwashing - 1,000 litres should be enough. Effective backwashing depends on pump pressure, and adjusting the in / out valves on the filter conducively.

Clean your tank thoroughly before use with fairy liquid and a scotch brite, and make sure you rinse out all the residue before using. Check it every now and again, even with filtering, and clean accordingly (at least once every 3-6 Months, depending on use). If you're only going for a Month at a time, I wouldn't worry too much - most tank lids should have a small breather hole, and if yours doesn't, puncture a small one or two yourself, with a piece of hot wire, or a darning needle - it is important to let oxygen get to your water.

Ballcocks come in different qualities - you can get them with brass pins, or completely plastic, or electronic. Select a good quality 1 inch, solid brass ballcock - it will deal with the pressure a lot better than 1/2 inch.

Make sure the ball is securely screwed down / tightened, or wrap copper wire around the arm aswell, to be absolutely sure it won't slip off - this is more liable before pin faliure, with the same results.

The electric systems using two floats are good in the respect that they can kill the power to your pump, should the water level get too low - but I do believe most pumps would have a thermal cutout on them - Crossy would probably know better than me. I have, however, had a well pump sieze, after it was running for ages with no incoming water (supply had unknowingly stopped). Is your supply indefinite ? Maybe keep an eye on it sometimes.

Like Crossy said - use same guage from tank as incoming on pump, with manual stop cock. From pump, a 'T' junction and 1 inch pipe with another stop cock, back to the inlet of your filter, and then another stopcock, and ideally at least 1 inch main line to all your recepticles, where they should take a 1/2 inch feed off as late as possible. This provides more volume of water flowing, which in turn provides more pressure at the tap, and a less noticable drop in pressure, should you open many taps at the same time. Are you using a constant pressure pump ? With a well pump, the pressure won't be constant, which can cause havoc trying to maintan uniform hot water temperature with instantaneous heaters, and provide unsatisfactory showering 'power' to boot.

Finally, if you're installing new pipe work, and connecting to old, you might want to blast out the water for a couple of minutes, preferably using one point in the system / pipe work - after the new work - at a point with just a simple, screw on tap connected, to get rid of small plastic pipe particles that will invariably be in the system after sawing / cementing / joining.These particles can clog up tap filters, or fancy mixer taps in showers, etc. If not purged properly, they can be a bugger, or even impossible to get rid off after.

Good Luck !

Edited March 31, 2013 by Ackybang

[JaiLai]

The usual way of doing it:-

pump setup.jpg

The non return valve (which provides automatic switch over to city water if the pump is dead) could be a regular stop valve (normally off) to lower the cost (NR valves tend to leak a bit too).

Excuse my ignorance but what purpose does the 'pressure tank' serve?

Thanks

[Crossy]

Excuse my ignorance but what purpose does the 'pressure tank' serve?

It's usually built in to the 'normal' automatic pumps and provides a small reserve of water pressure (the tank has an air bladder) so that the pump doesn't fire up every time you use a small amount of water. Ours is 5 Litres so we can get enough to rinse cups etc. before the pump starts.

[JaiLai]

Excuse my ignorance but what purpose does the 'pressure tank' serve?

It's usually built in to the 'normal' automatic pumps and provides a small reserve of water pressure (the tank has an air bladder) so that the pump doesn't fire up every time you use a small amount of water. Ours is 5 Litres so we can get enough to rinse cups etc. before the pump starts.

ok, thanks for that - makes sense

[Pib]

Another question about tanks and water. I've just looked at my neighbours instalation and he only uses the water in the tank when his supply is stopped otherwise he pumps the mains supply. I had planned to pump the tank contents all the time. Is this OK? Also I plan to install a whole house activated carbon unit. I notice on the Thai complete systems that they put this before the tank - to me that seems not logical since the activated carbon will eliminate chlorine and to be honest I would rather keep the chlorine in the water whilst it's being stored in a tank (sometimes I might be away for a month) Also if I opt for a system the same as my neighbours (which I would rather not) then the water could be in the tank for a long time and would be better chlorinated than not. Anybody have any thoughts on this?

I always pump from the storage tank....I have a 850 liter stainless/above ground tank which is enough water for about 2 days. This way if there is any interruption in the water main supply we don't even notice it...it's not uncommon to hear some water main is broke somewhere and it will take approx. one day for the water department to digup/repair the line. With the storage tank we don't even notice the water main break.

The short water line from the storage tank to the pump goes through a cutoff valve and non-return valve....and just before it connects to the water pump it hooks to a T-connector where a line from the main water line meets up (also with a cutoff valve and non-return valve)...right after the T-connector the line connects to the water pump inlet. I always have the cutoff valve for the storage tank open and the cutoff valve for the water main closed, except when needing to do maintenance on the water storage tank which is close to never. This setup came in handy just this week as I was having tile replaced around the house and under the water storage tank. We removed the storage tanks so new tile could be laid...all I did was turn off the tank cutoff valve and turned on the main cutoff valve...this way we continued to have water by sucking it directly from the water main line versus from the tank...thank goodness there was no water main break during this time period.

I would "not" just fill-up the tank and use it whenever you notice the water main line has no water (probably a break somewhere). Why? Because you would then be sucking water that had been in the tank for X-days/months/years. Plus, if running your pump directly from the water main whenever the water main has no water the pump is just going to run-and-run as it tries to suck water---water that ain't there....that can damage your water pump. I would recommend your suck the water from your water storage tank all the time....plus this allows any/much of the water sediment to sink to the bottom of the tank and not get pumped into your home. Periodically you should drain the tank and wash out the sediment at the bottom of the tank. I did this for the first time last week when the tank was removed due to the tile laying....there was a valve/outlet at the very, very center bottom of the tank which allows every little bit of water and any sediment to be drained/washed out...the tank outlet to the pump is about one inch from the tank bottom which is above the level of any sediment.

[bankruatsteve]

As Crossy pointed out previously, any setup that pumps (sucks) water directly from the mains is NOT acceptable and probably get a fine in most places.