Phuket Crackdown On Russians Heads North

[fullcave]

I'm not Russian but I think It's absurd they should target Russian businesses exclusively. The law is the law regardless of nationality.

[Andre0720]

Refer to this sentence: Neither make Thailand look more Thai. And if you're not yet aware of it, Russian was a common (official) language in every USSR country and even more. All together they're not a small part of the world. Sure there're more English speaking nations but it's hardly a reason to say this language is ok and that isn't.

So the government should scrap this Crackdown on Russians, and instead send all these unhappy Thai people somewhere where there are no Russian signs.

Just bring some more busses, we are going north.

Oh, but the crackdown is already headed north.

Oh well, thanks for the suggestiona anyway Nungstein.

No they shouldn't scrap it, but they don't complain about Russian signs, you do.

At least you got one thing right...

[youngXpat]

Lets all say boo hoo Russians, but this is Thailand and there are rules I myself have a business here and I spent a ton of money to get it going and obtaining the proper licenses and let not forget a WORK permit,, this Russian garbidge is not following the law so should they be picked on and arrested, I say yes, if they do the wrong thing they should pay,,, I wonder what the price is if a Thai person went to Moscow and opened a food shop without the correct documents,, and to those still crying about the taxis and jet skiis we put up signs warning people away from them, no business no food no more problems

Yet more xenophobic comments from 'Ironmike'. Last time it was 'English crap'. Let me guess 'Brianmike', let's fill the world with Americans!?!?

You embarrass the decent, polite Americans of which there are many. Shame on you.

[ThailandNoob]

Also the rules to obtain an WP en bussinesslicense are also very easy to untderstand.

So if somebody break them, its normal that some action is taken.

I have to disagree with this. I am a fully qualified teacher with a graduate degree. For a year I worked in Bangkok, teaching at one of the most prestigious universities there. Even though this was a government university, it was impossible for me to get them to get me a work permit because of the vast mountains of paperwork involved. So while normally I wouldn't have any sympathy with people working in a foreign country, in the case of Thailand my opinion is different because I know from first-hand experience that it is next to impossible to get one, due to how much of a shambles the system is.

I strongly suspect that the work permit system has stayed so dysfunctional for so long because Immigration has never really enforced it. If they want to start enforcing it, then they'll need to reform it so that it's actually possible for people to comply with it.

And I think it's totally stupid for Immigration to "crack down" on these Russians working in the tourist industry. Since a large proportion of the tourists coming from CIS countries are monolingual and desire services in their own language, working providing services to them is a job with a "necessity to hire a foreigner instead of a Thai employee" if there ever was one (unless there is some hitherto unseen pool of Russian speaking Thais large enough to handle the large and rising number of tourists monolingual in Russian).

To the people that have posted about how they travelled to foreign countries where they couldn't speak the language and no-one could speak theirs, and yet made it through, congratulations. I applaud your adventurous spirit. But just because that style of travel works for you doesn't mean that it works for everyone. Most tourists, for better or worse, wish to stay in a kind of "tourist bubble" where everything they want can be arranged with a minimum of fuss. Critical to this is the presence of speakers of a language which you are also fluent in. And for a lot of people from CIS countries, the only such language is Russian.

If Immigration persist with this extremely short-sighted move, then such tourists get fed up with being unable to access services in a language they speak, and take their roubles elsewhere. Even if they only spend 3,000 baht a day (still vastly more than the average daily wage across the country), with enough tourists this will still add up. And given how vastly overpriced a lot of the services are that are marketed towards Russians, I actually highly doubt this figure (3,000 baht per person for a cramped minivan ride from Pattaya to Koh Chang anyone?).

I'm pretty sure Immigration's real motivation here is to extort tea money from these Russian businesses. I personally know a foreign business owner who set up shop in Bangkok, employing dozens of Thais and only a few Westerners. When applying for work permits for himself and the few other Western staff, he was approached by some bigwig in Immigration, who told him in no uncertain terms that the applications would all be denied unless he paid what totalled to hundreds of thousands of baht (all naturally without a receipt). This was in spite of everything being above board. I've heard similar stories elsewhere.

How can people point the finger at these Russians as being criminals when Immigration is corrupt to the core? I'm sure that, for at least some of them, the only reason they lack a work permit is unwillingness to pay the bribes required to get one rather than anything underhand going on.

And all this talk of how this crackdown needs to happen because of the uncouth behaviour of Russian tourists or the "Russian mafia" smacks to me of racism. Has there been any mention of any of this kind of behaviour by any of the arrested people? Or of their links to organised crime? So far I have seen nothing more than speculation. I wonder what people's attitudes would be if random farang expats were getting arrested on trumped-up charges, justified by the fact that some Western tourists behave yobbishly, or that some Western expats are involved in organised crime.

You say

"

And all this talk of how this crackdown needs to happen because of the

uncouth behaviour of Russian tourists or the "Russian mafia" smacks to

me of racism."

Your whole article sounds like racism towards the Thais.

Please tell me how it is racism towards the Thai people as a whole to criticise one organisation (or cluster of organisations depending on how you look at it). I am merely pointing out that their bureaucracy (which only employs a small segment of the population) is both riddled with both dysfunctionality and corruption. People with degrees teaching at government universities but not being able to get work permits is solid evidence of the first. Legitimate businesses having to pay backhanders to Immigration officials is solid evidence of the second.

I speak pretty fluent Thai and am friends with a lot of ordinary, regular Thai people, none of whom play any role in what I am describing other than that of victim. Many of them have experienced issues similar to what I describe when they deal with bureaucracy themselves. I have heard enough first-hand accounts from enough people about enough facets of Thai bureaucracy to convince me that there is a systemic problem here.

And if it is racism for me to highlight the lack of Russian speakers in Thailand, then I must be guilty of racism towards my home country as well, since I will readily admit that very few people there even know what the Cyrillic alphabet is. As such, if it ever experienced a sudden influx of monolingual Russian speaking tourists, then I would think it completely reasonable to allow Russian speakers to come from overseas and work providing services to these tourists in their own language. I don't have a problem with tourists spending a few weeks in a country where they can't speak the language, as long as they are prepared to pay a premium to access services delivered in their own language (organising these would cost more than services in the local language, which needs to be built into the cost).

[lemoncake]

Wherever you go in the world the immigrants who cause the most trouble are Eastern European.

ATM m/c scams where/are one of there favorite ways of getting money illegally. i hope & pray these cretins are not allowed to move any further north than Suvarnaphun? airport.

So you not an immigrant? you are a local?

[ThailandNoob]

Also the rules to obtain an WP en bussinesslicense are also very easy to untderstand.

So if somebody break them, its normal that some action is taken.

I have to disagree with this. I am a fully qualified teacher with a graduate degree. For a year I worked in Bangkok, teaching at one of the most prestigious universities there. Even though this was a government university, it was impossible for me to get them to get me a work permit because of the vast mountains of paperwork involved. So while normally I wouldn't have any sympathy with people working in a foreign country, in the case of Thailand my opinion is different because I know from first-hand experience that it is next to impossible to get one, due to how much of a shambles the system is.

I strongly suspect that the work permit system has stayed so dysfunctional for so long because Immigration has never really enforced it. If they want to start enforcing it, then they'll need to reform it so that it's actually possible for people to comply with it.

And I think it's totally stupid for Immigration to "crack down" on these Russians working in the tourist industry. Since a large proportion of the tourists coming from CIS countries are monolingual and desire services in their own language, working providing services to them is a job with a "necessity to hire a foreigner instead of a Thai employee" if there ever was one (unless there is some hitherto unseen pool of Russian speaking Thais large enough to handle the large and rising number of tourists monolingual in Russian).

To the people that have posted about how they travelled to foreign countries where they couldn't speak the language and no-one could speak theirs, and yet made it through, congratulations. I applaud your adventurous spirit. But just because that style of travel works for you doesn't mean that it works for everyone. Most tourists, for better or worse, wish to stay in a kind of "tourist bubble" where everything they want can be arranged with a minimum of fuss. Critical to this is the presence of speakers of a language which you are also fluent in. And for a lot of people from CIS countries, the only such language is Russian.

If Immigration persist with this extremely short-sighted move, then such tourists get fed up with being unable to access services in a language they speak, and take their roubles elsewhere. Even if they only spend 3,000 baht a day (still vastly more than the average daily wage across the country), with enough tourists this will still add up. And given how vastly overpriced a lot of the services are that are marketed towards Russians, I actually highly doubt this figure (3,000 baht per person for a cramped minivan ride from Pattaya to Koh Chang anyone?).

I'm pretty sure Immigration's real motivation here is to extort tea money from these Russian businesses. I personally know a foreign business owner who set up shop in Bangkok, employing dozens of Thais and only a few Westerners. When applying for work permits for himself and the few other Western staff, he was approached by some bigwig in Immigration, who told him in no uncertain terms that the applications would all be denied unless he paid what totalled to hundreds of thousands of baht (all naturally without a receipt). This was in spite of everything being above board. I've heard similar stories elsewhere.

How can people point the finger at these Russians as being criminals when Immigration is corrupt to the core? I'm sure that, for at least some of them, the only reason they lack a work permit is unwillingness to pay the bribes required to get one rather than anything underhand going on.

And all this talk of how this crackdown needs to happen because of the uncouth behaviour of Russian tourists or the "Russian mafia" smacks to me of racism. Has there been any mention of any of this kind of behaviour by any of the arrested people? Or of their links to organised crime? So far I have seen nothing more than speculation. I wonder what people's attitudes would be if random farang expats were getting arrested on trumped-up charges, justified by the fact that some Western tourists behave yobbishly, or that some Western expats are involved in organised crime.

Without going into your entire post, there are hundreds if not thousands of teachers who have WP, I personally know of a few who teach at Uni in BKK and all have WP, salary of over 100K per month plus other benefits.

WP does not require that many papers, no more than opening a business bank account.

Why all the uni's where you taught did not arrange WP for you is very strange

I only taught for one university, however there were a lot of foreign teachers there in the same boat as I was. Some of them had been teaching there for years and were either still getting fobbed off by the uni whenever they asked about a work permit, or had given up asking.

Yes we got paid decent salaries though.

[Chris Lawrence]

And how are they stealing Thai's jobs..... Are there any Thais living and working on Phuket who speak fluent Russian????????????????????????????????????

Yeah, Russian Mafia

[NamKangMan]

enough with the drama thailand.....this is called ''free enterprise''...wait until the casino's arrive...then the sh*t will really hit the fan.....

How would casino's change anything?

Crime will go up.

[NamKangMan]

I went to Bangla tonight.

It was a close count but I think there were more Russian prostitutes than Thai prostitutes working the strip...

How are you going to stop that, if they all have tourist visas and do their "visa runs?"

I know a girl from Laos who works in a bar here. She does her visa runs and still "works" the same as Thai bar girls, but does not serve drinks. If police ask, she is just on a "holiday" - although I'm sure they know she isn't, what can they arrest her for? There are many Cambodian, Vietnamese and Burmese girls working here in the sex trade the same way, yet, many posters only have a problem with the Russians.

Unless the Thai Police "hire" undercover farangs, and they will not have work permits, to approach and "do a deal for sex" with these foreign girls, how are you going to arrest them and prosecute them? It's very hipocritical for police to "employ" a foreigner without a work permit to catch some other foreigner working without a work permit.

Like I mentioned in an earlier post, all it will take is a Russian to buy a beer bar and have all the Russian hookers "drink" there, with Thai girls serving the drinks, and what will the police be able to do about it, legally? Nothing. The prostitution will run exactly the way it is now with the Thai bar girls, because it's an illegal occupation in Thailand anyway, and therefore shouldn't exist. How can Russians take "customers" away from Thai bar girls when prostitution is illegal in Thailand???? There are nightclubs in Bangkok where the Russian girls freelance, and have done so for years - very little can be done about it, if their visas are in order.

Of course, to "fix the problem" the Phuket Police will just find drugs on them, or some other fabrication, and charge and deport them. The police work outside of the law here but expect everyone else to work within the law.

[stevenl]

I'm not Russian but I think It's absurd they should target Russian businesses exclusively. The law is the law regardless of nationality.

Agree, but they don't like the Russians.

[Phronesis]

The problem is the WAY the Russians are doing things. While the rest of us at least TRY to fit into the Thai community little bit, The Russians, for the most part, blatantly don't try, and don't care from what I've seen.

Russians, by Thai and Western standards, are fairly rude,and generally treat the Thai's like sh*t, from what i can see. Their general way of doing things, while it may have made them successful in Russia, comes across in TL and very harsh, and non Thai like. So there's a bit more resentment when the a$$hole Russians are taking Thai jobs rather than those nice Aussie (for example) who at least hires some Thai, and treat them fairly well.

Its the Russians own undoing.

As much as TL like the Russian tourist money,

you really have to be a$$holes to generate this much animosity.

Maybe they can learn a lesson here.

Maybe we all can.

I think you are entirely wrong here. I see little disparity between Thai and Russian cultures. Russian want to look like millionaires...here the big suvs were as much visible gold as they can afford...and treat the dark skinned dek serbs at the restaurants dreadfully. Sound familiar?

[hgma]

Laos announced visa exemption for Russian Nationals (26-03-2013 VT Times)

AND combi visa with Thailand and cambodia consideration.

Laos Simply Beautiful or what?

[ianf]

The main problem is that Thais, at all levels of society, are ultimately quite racist. How can we expect them to accept Russians, or Brits, when they cannot accept their own people from the mountains?

[RogueLeader]

yes agree with above post

lots of people working with no work permits

get them all out so us legal ones can do better business

hopefully they will turn up on samui as well and nab all the timeshare touts , hairdressers,realestate agents that work here illegally [thats just naming a few as well]

Asking the government to close down your competitors. That's 21st Century capitalism.

[Markaew]

So "Russians stealing people's jobs". Why only Russian companies?...

Russians don't like paying tea money.

[wolf5370]

_{The law states that these are illegal workers and illegal businesses, so the Governor is in the right to crack down on it when the law is being broken in such an overt way.}

_{This does not excuse him from ignoring the transgressions of the jet skis, taxi mafia et al, they are simply a different issue.}

_{With the prime minister touring with a goal of drumming up more investment in Thailand, she should be looking to revisit those dusty xenophobic laws that cause that lack of investment to come about, and locks Thailand into being farmers and cheap labour for foreign factories that it currently is. It should not matter what nationality a company owner is, only that the company hires legal workers. It needs to be on a case by case basis and not hard lines (like number of Thai employees/length of company existence/company earnings) - if I want to hire a foreigner as a waiter, then I can understand the "no" - if I want to hire a PR assistant for exports to Russia (for example) then it makes sense that fluent Russian language and culture is likely to come form a Russian, so "yes". Also, need to drop the "place of work" in favour of simply "employer" on work permits - this often fails with legitimate workers were mobility is required.}

_{It is clearly wrong these days that a Thai (or nationality) can do any role - many roles require specialist skills, ability to take advantage of foreign passports (like ease of travel for westerners with respect to visas etc), language and cultural knowledge, experience, contacts, etc. A role should be "justified" - i.e. shown that a Thai can not do it - rather than silly lists of jobs that must be kept for Thais only. This way the authorities can be sure that these are not Thai jobs being "stolen" and that income of the company and employers is going to benefit them via taxes. No loose situation.}

_{This can only be to Thailand's benefit with respect to growth, foreign investment, employment, tax income, wage levels, moving forward. This will also stimulate Thai competitors, allowing for better pricing, staffing, technologies and growth (into other areas) - a pure reduction in stagnation and poor service suppliers.}

_{Its about time Thai politicians started looking to the future, listening to common sense and not blindly following fearful business leaders that like the status quo of poor service, working conditions, and pay - these same businessmen will find also that it is to their wholesale benefit when there is a base they can rely on and their supplier costs are cut and efficiency improved, as a result.}

[wolf5370]

I went to Bangla tonight.

It was a close count but I think there were more Russian prostitutes than Thai prostitutes working the strip...

How are you going to stop that, if they all have tourist visas and do their "visa runs?"

I know a girl from Laos who works in a bar here. She does her visa runs and still "works" the same as Thai bar girls, but does not serve drinks. If police ask, she is just on a "holiday" - although I'm sure they know she isn't, what can they arrest her for? There are many Cambodian, Vietnamese and Burmese girls working here in the sex trade the same way, yet, many posters only have a problem with the Russians.

Unless the Thai Police "hire" undercover farangs, and they will not have work permits, to approach and "do a deal for sex" with these foreign girls, how are you going to arrest them and prosecute them? It's very hipocritical for police to "employ" a foreigner without a work permit to catch some other foreigner working without a work permit.

Like I mentioned in an earlier post, all it will take is a Russian to buy a beer bar and have all the Russian hookers "drink" there, with Thai girls serving the drinks, and what will the police be able to do about it, legally? Nothing. The prostitution will run exactly the way it is now with the Thai bar girls, because it's an illegal occupation in Thailand anyway, and therefore shouldn't exist. How can Russians take "customers" away from Thai bar girls when prostitution is illegal in Thailand???? There are nightclubs in Bangkok where the Russian girls freelance, and have done so for years - very little can be done about it, if their visas are in order.

Of course, to "fix the problem" the Phuket Police will just find drugs on them, or some other fabrication, and charge and deport them. The police work outside of the law here but expect everyone else to work within the law.

The bar will be hounded and closed down - simple as that. Stings will get the girls arrested and deported if they wish to go that far - they have been known to use farangs for that.

The difference is that the Burmese/Laos/etc girls are still "owned" by the Thais - if they have pimps (or pay bar fines to the bar) then it goes to Thais who pay their tea money or have the right connections to avoid it (probably pay it further up the chain then). The Russian girls probably (or at least would seem to have) Russian pimps, so the right people are not getting their cut.

Either the business model will change - they start paying the right people - or they will get stamped on. Thais will put up with a little illegality as long as they end up winning in some small degree - cut them out at your peril.

[wolf5370]

enough with the drama thailand.....this is called ''free enterprise''...wait until the casino's arrive...then the sh*t will really hit the fan.....

How would casino's change anything?

Crime will go up.

Or down...any Thai can find an illegal casino here - many lottery ticket sellers also sell illegal tickets or take bets against the number under the table. Most Thai parties end up with people playing silly betting games (with much worse odds than casinos usually). Casinos would be good news I think - ignoring the jobs and income, it would make it legal, allow for protected games and odds, and even force the owners to pay for Gamblers Anonymous like groups.

There are often trips to Burma etc to casinos for Thais, and other, groups - easy to spot in Mae Sai for example. The rich get real casinos anyway, the poor get screwed by the local underground "casino".

[wolf5370]

I just wish the local falang media calls this what it is: an anti-falang witch hunt.

They would be beaten down in two questions: (yes or no only answers!)

:Is it illegal?"

:Should the authorities not prosecute illegality?

They would also likely be charged with slander - especially of names were mentioned, like the Governor. Better to report it as fact and leave the unwritten headline to the reader I think.

[SiamKitt]

Getting back to the news report..it says local officials will START conducting raids..I thought (in todays world of crime suppression)..that a 'raid' was something done WITHOUT prior warning to catch as many suspects as possible..?

Nowt like giving the Russians a head start, so thet can become 'unavailable' this next week or so. T.I.T.

[flint]

For those who don’t understand the reason for the Russians being targeted first although there are more English, Thai’s do not speak Russian (why would they, English is the 2^nd language) Russians do not speak English (they should at least learn the 2^nd language before starting a business in a none Russian speaking country). I have had a business here for many years now, I currently employ eight Thai staff, I use a local Thai company for transportation for my guests, and I use a Thai accountant to keep my affairs in order. I think this applies to most English and other nationalities, it certainly do’s with ALL the other X-pat business people that I know. Then the Russians because of the language barrier (their fault) open a business and want to use all Russians for staff, and then start a transport business because of the language barrier for their Russian clients, and as far as keeping accounts and paying their dues, well who knows. And “come on” how they can open a business using Russian girls for prostitution (remembering that prostitution is illegal in Thailand Ha Ha).

Must be something to do with coming from a corrupt country to a country that’s corrupt. I am not going to get into the reasons that most Russians are disliked here and other country’s because I’m sure that it’s all for the same reason.

All I can hope is that the Thai people stand up to them and drive them away before they get too strong a foot hold. As for me I am already arranging my future plans so that if the Ruskies do get a strong hold (like in Pattaya) I can move to an area where they (the Ruskies) have no interest in going.

[wolf5370]

Getting back to the news report..it says local officials will START conducting raids..I thought (in todays world of crime suppression)..that a 'raid' was something done WITHOUT prior warning to catch as many suspects as possible..?

Nowt like giving the Russians a head start, so thet can become 'unavailable' this next week or so. T.I.T.

Nah they can't speak English lol!

[flint]

And how are they stealing Thai's jobs..... Are there any Thais living and working on Phuket who speak fluent Russian????????????????????????????????????

What a ridicules statement, do you not understand that ENGLISH is the WORLDS second language (this really pissed the French off) this is so the WORLD can communicate and why all countries teach English in schools

Read my post it will explain more for you.

[SiggiCM]

english is the second leguage because so easy that nearly a monkey can learn, more than 1.000.000.000 speaks russian,

and off couse if I go to vacation and pay a lot off money than I prefer to deal with companys and servce who can speak my language,

by the way russians are 100% more educated than english or americans, have a great history in culture and only because you see

in pattaya in walkingstreet drunk and not polite russians to make the point htat all russians like that , then please go to florida in spring breaks or to spain

and you can see drunken english and americans, who even not able to speak their mother language :-)

and all people forget was happend in Koh samui 20 years ago, in pattaya 50 years ago and phuket 30 years ago wehn all european expats coming and opening bussines, if you count all EU people together than you have much more than russians, only european speak different languages but europe is still smaller than Russia and less people. if all in Europe would speak same language for sure there would be the same complaints like about Russians

[ThailandNoob]

And how are they stealing Thai's jobs..... Are there any Thais living and working on Phuket who speak fluent Russian????????????????????????????????????

What a ridicules statement, do you not understand that ENGLISH is the WORLDS second language (this really pissed the French off) this is so the WORLD can communicate and why all countries teach English in schools

Read my post it will explain more for you.

English may or may not be the "world's second language" (that's another discussion), but the fact of the matter is that it is not spoken by a lot of the tourists coming from Russia and other CIS countries. Why shouldn't they have access to services in their own language if they're willing to pay for it? And to provide such services, Russian speakers are obviously required.

[NamKangMan]

enough with the drama thailand.....this is called ''free enterprise''...wait until the casino's arrive...then the sh*t will really hit the fan.....

How would casino's change anything?

Crime will go up.

Or down...any Thai can find an illegal casino here - many lottery ticket sellers also sell illegal tickets or take bets against the number under the table. Most Thai parties end up with people playing silly betting games (with much worse odds than casinos usually). Casinos would be good news I think - ignoring the jobs and income, it would make it legal, allow for protected games and odds, and even force the owners to pay for Gamblers Anonymous like groups.

There are often trips to Burma etc to casinos for Thais, and other, groups - easy to spot in Mae Sai for example. The rich get real casinos anyway, the poor get screwed by the local underground "casino".

So, when "the poor" can go to a casino and play, what becomes of the gangs that WERE running the underground card games - they are now out of work. So, maybe they turn to selling drugs, robbing people etc etc.

Also, with proper casinos, the losses are potentially bigger, and they do not accept a house book or gold as security, so that means, the "loser" has to go out and steal to be able to go back to the casino to feed their addiction.

The only winner is the Government, and I bet the casino will have many "fingers in the cookie jar" before the Government gets their tax and profits.

Thailand has enough problems dealing with the vices they currently have and the social problems they cause.

I agree it's only a matter of time before Thailand has legal casinos. You are correct, there is a lot of money leaving the Thai economy to neighbouring countries through boarder casinos, also, direct flights to Macau.

I think they will would have to implement some sort of "gambling licence" for Thai's, most probably based on your income or a bank statement showing adequate funds.

[FritsSikkink]

english is the second leguage because so easy that nearly a monkey can learn, more than 1.000.000.000 speaks russian,

No, less than 300.000.000

[FritsSikkink]

And how are they stealing Thai's jobs..... Are there any Thais living and working on Phuket who speak fluent Russian????????????????????????????????????

What a ridicules statement, do you not understand that ENGLISH is the WORLDS second language (this really pissed the French off) this is so the WORLD can communicate and why all countries teach English in schools

Read my post it will explain more for you.

English may or may not be the "world's second language" (that's another discussion), but the fact of the matter is that it is not spoken by a lot of the tourists coming from Russia and other CIS countries. Why shouldn't they have access to services in their own language if they're willing to pay for it? And to provide such services, Russian speakers are obviously required.

They have access to service in their own language in their own country.

When you want to see the world and understand something while you travel, learn a second language.

If Russians and any other non-Thai want to work in Thailand, obey the rules and get a workpermit first.

[Shurup]

english is the second leguage because so easy that nearly a monkey can learn, more than 1.000.000.000 speaks russian,

No, less than 300.000.000

At the end of USSR in 91 the population was just a wee bit under 300.000.000 Now, 2 decades later, it's surely a lot more than that... Besides, as I mentioned there were some other countries outside of URRS (Bosnia, Slovakia, Ugoslavia, etc. sp???) that were teaching Russian in schools as a second language. All Slovenian languages have something in common and people can communicate with each other in Russian. If folks in those countries don't learn English they could use Russian services when coming here so stop this nonsense about English being world's language and about tourist having to learn English and about no need for Russian speaking folks here.

[wolf5370]

<SNIP>

Or down...any Thai can find an illegal casino here - many lottery ticket sellers also sell illegal tickets or take bets against the number under the table. Most Thai parties end up with people playing silly betting games (with much worse odds than casinos usually). Casinos would be good news I think - ignoring the jobs and income, it would make it legal, allow for protected games and odds, and even force the owners to pay for Gamblers Anonymous like groups.

There are often trips to Burma etc to casinos for Thais, and other, groups - easy to spot in Mae Sai for example. The rich get real casinos anyway, the poor get screwed by the local underground "casino".

So, when "the poor" can go to a casino and play, what becomes of the gangs that WERE running the underground card games - they are now out of work. So, maybe they turn to selling drugs, robbing people etc etc.

Also, with proper casinos, the losses are potentially bigger, and they do not accept a house book or gold as security, so that means, the "loser" has to go out and steal to be able to go back to the casino to feed their addiction.

The only winner is the Government, and I bet the casino will have many "fingers in the cookie jar" before the Government gets their tax and profits.

Thailand has enough problems dealing with the vices they currently have and the social problems they cause.

I agree it's only a matter of time before Thailand has legal casinos. You are correct, there is a lot of money leaving the Thai economy to neighbouring countries through boarder casinos, also, direct flights to Macau.

I think they will would have to implement some sort of "gambling licence" for Thai's, most probably based on your income or a bank statement showing adequate funds.

So what you are saying is there is two alternatives, allow organised crime to run casinos or legitimate casinos to run them - and you are tending towards organised crime?

Sure, in a ideal world there would be no gambling problems - this isn't one, there are going to be problems with gamblers like there are with drunks and bars. Legislation can be used to make it illegal to serve drunks, and can also be used to maintain a banned list - and limit liability and debt (not just in the casinos but lenders too). The fact that all this can be circumvented with loan sharks etc is not an argument as that is a status quo - and always will be (even in supposedly less corrupt society there are payday loan companies with APR rates in the thousands).

No country can look at legislation from a point of view that it will be circumvented by corruption - they have to decide the law on its merits. I don't doubt palms will be greased, but right now they are also being greased and its illegal all the way up a down. At least with legal casinos laws can be put in place and license rules in an attempt to protect the public and users of the casino and even to raise taxes and support help groups - while it is underground none of that happens.

You are also assuming that the criminals running the casinos are NOT already running drugs etc - the more likely story is, however, that such people work for powerful unground groups that do all of these things - and illegal casinos/lottery fund a lot of it (which is likely the reason the big casino project which was discussed a few years back was thrown out).