Working Freelance For Overseas Businesses

[bangarang]

Hey Guys, I have a couple Questions I hope to clear up from you guys as there seems to be a lot of great advice here.

1. With the recent push in Phuket of ousting illegal workers here, it got me thinking to the freelance side of things. If I were to be working freelance as a designer for companies back home in USA but living here in Thailand. Would that mean that I would be considered an illegal worker? I don't advertise my business in Thailand, nor am I interested in competing with the local Thai's.

2. In June I will be applying for a Non-O as now I am married and just had a child 2 months ago. I Want to get a 1 year O-Multi but I dont have the 400k. I dont know which is better, Vientiane or Suvanakhet, but if I can show that I depost 50-70k a month would that be able to be enough? The only issue I can see is if they ask where the money is from, should I not mention that I freelance for companies overseas as this might be considered illegally working?

3. Given that I deposit 50-70k in my thai book bank every month would I still be just as lucky to get a multi-O from Vientiane as I would in Suvanakhet? Traveling with an infant would be much easier with Vientiane as I am traveling from phuket. Fly to udon and take a bus.

Thanks guys for all your help.

[PoorSucker]

1. Any work performed in Thailand requires a work permit, period.

2. Savankhet is the only place that will issue multiple non-O based on marriage without showing funds.

[maprao]

Yes it requires a WP but

Unless you tell people what you are doing who is to know?

[Satcommlee]

Technically illegal but what are you chances of getting caught if you are tucked away in your apartment working on a PC.

Start telling too many people what you do then your chances of running into problems will be higher. People love snitching in Thailand when they are in the S##t.

I would be more concerned about whether tax is being paid on this income..

You'd need to show 40K a month going into your bank and certified by your embassy to get the 1 year extension to a non-imm visa, but getting the non-imm itself I don't know.

There can be severe penalties for working without a work permit as the "must have a work permit" brigade will point out, but realistically you are not a target for the immigration and there will be many 1000's doing just the same as you.

[bangarang]

Got it, so technically I would be considered illegal but as long as I dont advertise it, shouldnt be a problem since im tucked away in my place.

You'd need to show 40K a month going into your bank and certified by your embassy to get the 1 year extension to a non-imm visa, but getting the non-imm itself I don't know.

My bank account is a joint SCB thai account. Do I still need a letter from my embassy or would presenting the thai book bank be enough?

Any Idea if they ever ask where the money comes from? Or not a problem?

[JLCrab]

In post #1 is the statement: , nor am I interested in competing with the local Thai's

​If you are working in Thailand doing work for American companies you actually are in one sense competing with local Thais as US-based website design firms are known to sub-contract their work in Thailand.

[bangarang]

In post #1 is the statement: , nor am I interested in competing with the local Thai's

​If you are working in Thailand doing work for American companies you actually are in one sense competing with local Thais as US-based website design firms are known to sub-contract their work in Thailand.

I see your point there. As I dont want to cause problems locally, I dont want to advertise to local businesses here in Thailand. In the global sense though... I am doing the same as I would If I were to be working back home. I mainly target clients in my home country, so I wouldnt say im directly competing with thais on that front. Once in a while I get a project that finds me from OZ or UK. I mean any online job would be competing with someone from any country.

Strange though... Its kind of like saying that checking your work emails while on vacation would be considered illegal. Granted im staying here longer than a tourist, but still its kind of the same idea.

[Loptr]

1. Any work performed in Thailand requires a work permit, period.

2. Savankhet is the only place that will issue multiple non-O based on marriage without showing funds.

So who would authorize the work permit in this case? The employer is not in Thailand, nor is any of the work product. So by this person's efforts they are neither contributing to the Thai economy or taking work from a Thai person.

I know you are just quoting chapter and verse as per your interpretation of the law, but there are lots of people doing this in Thailand.

To the OP, just keep your mouth shut about what you are doing and you shouldn't have any issues. You start waving flags or telling the neighbors or especially other expats and you open yourself up for trouble.

[tropo]

1. Any work performed in Thailand requires a work permit, period.

2. Savankhet is the only place that will issue multiple non-O based on marriage without showing funds.

So who would authorize the work permit in this case? The employer is not in Thailand, nor is any of the work product. So by this person's efforts they are neither contributing to the Thai economy or taking work from a Thai person.

I know you are just quoting chapter and verse as per your interpretation of the law, but there are lots of people doing this in Thailand.

To the OP, just keep your mouth shut about what you are doing and you shouldn't have any issues. You start waving flags or telling the neighbors or especially other expats and you open yourself up for trouble.

Modern laws are too outdated to even cover this scenario. What of people taking care of stock portfolios online? The world has changed.

[asiaexpat]

Got it, so technically I would be considered illegal but as long as I dont advertise it, shouldnt be a problem since im tucked away in my place.

You'd need to show 40K a month going into your bank and certified by your embassy to get the 1 year extension to a non-imm visa, but getting the non-imm itself I don't know.

My bank account is a joint SCB thai account. Do I still need a letter from my embassy or would presenting the thai book bank be enough?

Any Idea if they ever ask where the money comes from? Or not a problem?

Joint accounts will not be accepted. Must be in applicant's name only.

[Soutpeel]

In post #1 is the statement: , nor am I interested in competing with the local Thai's

​If you are working in Thailand doing work for American companies you actually are in one sense competing with local Thais as US-based website design firms are known to sub-contract their work in Thailand.

I see your point there. As I dont want to cause problems locally, I dont want to advertise to local businesses here in Thailand. In the global sense though... I am doing the same as I would If I were to be working back home. I mainly target clients in my home country, so I wouldnt say im directly competing with thais on that front. Once in a while I get a project that finds me from OZ or UK. I mean any online job would be competing with someone from any country.

Strange though... Its kind of like saying that checking your work emails while on vacation would be considered illegal. Granted im staying here longer than a tourist, but still its kind of the same idea.

checking emails while on vacation, is not considered illegal, but then again a tourist is not claiming "residence" in Thailand and using overseas work to fund their life style in Thailand... ...so a very poor comparision

[Soutpeel]

1. Any work performed in Thailand requires a work permit, period.

2. Savankhet is the only place that will issue multiple non-O based on marriage without showing funds.

So who would authorize the work permit in this case? The employer is not in Thailand, nor is any of the work product. So by this person's efforts they are neither contributing to the Thai economy or taking work from a Thai person.

I know you are just quoting chapter and verse as per your interpretation of the law, but there are lots of people doing this in Thailand.

To the OP, just keep your mouth shut about what you are doing and you shouldn't have any issues. You start waving flags or telling the neighbors or especially other expats and you open yourself up for trouble.

Actually he is not giving an interpretation he is quote the law itself...the judgement as to whether someone is considered working is down to the individual Thai official, the law is not outdated at all it just gives the offical concerned the ability to interpret it anyway they like, so in some respects the law it'self is way ahead of other countries

[Loptr]

1. Any work performed in Thailand requires a work permit, period.

2. Savankhet is the only place that will issue multiple non-O based on marriage without showing funds.

So who would authorize the work permit in this case? The employer is not in Thailand, nor is any of the work product. So by this person's efforts they are neither contributing to the Thai economy or taking work from a Thai person.

I know you are just quoting chapter and verse as per your interpretation of the law, but there are lots of people doing this in Thailand.

To the OP, just keep your mouth shut about what you are doing and you shouldn't have any issues. You start waving flags or telling the neighbors or especially other expats and you open yourself up for trouble.

Actually he is not giving an interpretation he is quote the law itself...the judgement as to whether someone is considered working is down to the individual Thai official, the law is not outdated at all it just gives the offical concerned the ability to interpret it anyway they like, so in some respects the law it'self is way ahead of other countries

Yes, I believe we all know how Thai law can be interpreted in a variety of manners. Just look at the way the various Thai immigration offices handle visa extensions. It's all in the interpretation.

My point was and still is that many, many foreigners are doing this in Thailand today. I did it for years while working for a global megacorp with offices in Thailand. I never had a WP and the topic never arose as none of my work product was in / for Thailand sites, even though I lived in Thailand and my company has offices in Bangkok. The "interpretation" of the Thai law by the legal department of my company stated that we did not need or require WP's.

[Mario2008]

The law is crystal clear, you could have been jailed for up to 5 years.

[Satcommlee]

Can anyone actually give an example perhaps a news cutting of someone actually being done under the circumstances of minding his own business at home, working off his laptop?

Even the illegal web designer type blokes who actually do take work off Thai's never seem to be caught.

When you hear about it, it is always public facing people.. bar managers/ tour guides etc..

Does anyone have a single example of a remote worker for a non-thai company being busted?

[bangarang]

In post #1 is the statement: , nor am I interested in competing with the local Thai's

​If you are working in Thailand doing work for American companies you actually are in one sense competing with local Thais as US-based website design firms are known to sub-contract their work in Thailand.

I see your point there. As I dont want to cause problems locally, I dont want to advertise to local businesses here in Thailand. In the global sense though... I am doing the same as I would If I were to be working back home. I mainly target clients in my home country, so I wouldnt say im directly competing with thais on that front. Once in a while I get a project that finds me from OZ or UK. I mean any online job would be competing with someone from any country.

Strange though... Its kind of like saying that checking your work emails while on vacation would be considered illegal. Granted im staying here longer than a tourist, but still its kind of the same idea.

checking emails while on vacation, is not considered illegal, but then again a tourist is not claiming "residence" in Thailand and using overseas work to fund their life style in Thailand... ...so a very poor comparision

I wouldnt say thats a poor comparison... checking/responding to work related emails would still be considered working, no? Either way its a foreigner doing their work for a company in their home country. Sure, the timeline is different but either way, your pumping money into the thai economy by purchasing goods here. So really it's the same thing and according to the law quoted earlier its still technically working

Its definitely a very grey area, but the reason why I posted this thread was to get others opinions and maybe I could get some useful information to educate myself regarding this matter.

[tropo]

Its definitely a very grey area, but the reason why I posted this thread was to get others opinions and maybe I could get some useful information to educate myself regarding this matter.

I think you've already been educated. Don't talk about it. You shouldn't have even brought it up.

[tropo]

The law is crystal clear, you could have been jailed for up to 5 years.

Kind of like the copyright warnings on DVD's. $250,000 and 100 years in prison.

[JLCrab]

Whether the law is crystal clear or not, it is only enforced if and when someone brings it to the attention of the the local labor people which means that they have some grudge against you. That could be because they feel you are taking away some of their potential business or you looked too closely at someone's wife. So, as above, if someone asks, say you you are living here on a disability pension or some such thing.

BTW I could see why the legal department of a big megacorp would say that someone physically present in Thailand as one of their employees does not need a work permit. Work permits are expensive and a big pain in the a-s. Based on my understanding, it would be the employee and not the employer who would bear the consequences should the remote chance of labor-min enforcement occur.

Edited March 28, 2013 by JLCrab

[thaibutty]

I am currently facing a similar situation. My home base is Thailand but I work as a consultant for European manufacturers exporting to Asia. I have no customers in Thailand, I travel outside of Thailand for work and my money is coming in from outside of Thailand.

So I called the Phuket Labour department and asked them about having a work permit. The answer is you need a work permit. In order to obtain the work permit you would need to show the contract with the overseas company stating your kind of job, salary etc. Also you would need to proof that this company is a real, established company, so registration papers or similar.

Just to be sure I asked a friend who is a Thai lawyer to check with them again which exact paper work was needed. The reply she got from a different officer at the same department was: it´s not possible to do. If you work in Thailand, regardless of where your customers are, you need a work permit issued from a Thai company. Overseas contract is not allowed.

So what now!?

[Mario2008]

Have the company establish a presence in Thailand.

[candypants]

ive been doing it for years.

dont ask dont tell

Edited March 28, 2013 by candypants

[lopburi3]

I travel outside of Thailand for work and my money is coming in from outside of Thailand.

You should not need a work permit if you are not working in Thailand - you are in same position as many hundreds of off-shore oil and gas workers who do that but spend the off-time in Thailand. But if you reside in Thailand you should be paying income tax here - you do not need a work permit to do that.

[thaibutty]

Have the company establish a presence in Thailand.

What for? I am working as a commission based consultant for them. They have no business related to Thailand, neither do I.

What I don´t understand is that one guy from Labour says you don´t need a Thai company, just a contract overseas, while the either says it´s not possible...

[thaibutty]

I travel outside of Thailand for work and my money is coming in from outside of Thailand.

You should not need a work permit if you are not working in Thailand - you are in same position as many hundreds of off-shore oil and gas workers who do that but spend the off-time in Thailand. But if you reside in Thailand you should be paying income tax here - you do not need a work permit to do that.

Well, basically I do work in Thailand, while I am in Thailand, checking Emails, talking to clients on the phone. About half my time is travelling, the other half in the (home)office

[lopburi3]

That was not what you said in the quote - in that case you need to be working for a Thai registered company and your clients have contracts with them and you have a work permit with the Thai company.

[thaibutty]

That was not what you said in the quote - in that case you need to be working for a Thai registered company and your clients have contracts with them and you have a work permit with the Thai company.

Ok, thank´s for clarifying. Even though that is not what I wanted to hear;-)

Would it actually be possible to have the Thai wife(with legal tabien somrod) register a business in her name, as sole propiertorship, and have a work permit issued to circumvent the whole co. ltd and 4 employees issue?

[Mario2008]

Have the company establish a presence in Thailand.

What for? I am working as a commission based consultant for them. They have no business related to Thailand, neither do I.

What I don´t understand is that one guy from Labour says you don´t need a Thai company, just a contract overseas, while the either says it´s not possible...

That is probalby based on a difference in udnerstanding what you eactly do. For only business meetings on behalf of a company that does business with a Thai company no work permit is required. But you are not (only) doing business meetings here.

The only way to work legally is to get a work permit and for that you need to work for a Thai company or a foreign company which has a branch office in Thailand.

[IMA_FARANG]

If you work in Thailand .... even if you are NOT compensated for that work .... you need a work permit.

Work is defined as any activity that furthers or contibutes to your business or financial interests.

Therferfore, technically, the CEO of a foriegn firm who comes to Thailand and while here approves a memo he recieves by email on his personal email accoiunt from his home office is working in Thailand and requires a work permit.

By sending a reply back to his home office and approving that email he is technically illegally working in Thailand and is subject to possible arrest.

But, OF COURSE, no one enforces such a nonsensical law.

To take an out-if-date law to that limit would be stupid.

Like many things in Thailand, the actual law is out of date and was written long before there was any idea of the possibility of "on-line" work even ever being possible.

That's why even the Thais just prefer to ignore laws about working on-line.

But th laws are still there.

Edited March 28, 2013 by IMA_FARANG

[Soutpeel]

1. Any work performed in Thailand requires a work permit, period.

2. Savankhet is the only place that will issue multiple non-O based on marriage without showing funds.

So who would authorize the work permit in this case? The employer is not in Thailand, nor is any of the work product. So by this person's efforts they are neither contributing to the Thai economy or taking work from a Thai person.

I know you are just quoting chapter and verse as per your interpretation of the law, but there are lots of people doing this in Thailand.

To the OP, just keep your mouth shut about what you are doing and you shouldn't have any issues. You start waving flags or telling the neighbors or especially other expats and you open yourself up for trouble.

Actually he is not giving an interpretation he is quote the law itself...the judgement as to whether someone is considered working is down to the individual Thai official, the law is not outdated at all it just gives the offical concerned the ability to interpret it anyway they like, so in some respects the law it'self is way ahead of other countries

Yes, I believe we all know how Thai law can be interpreted in a variety of manners. Just look at the way the various Thai immigration offices handle visa extensions. It's all in the interpretation.

My point was and still is that many, many foreigners are doing this in Thailand today. I did it for years while working for a global megacorp with offices in Thailand. I never had a WP and the topic never arose as none of my work product was in / for Thailand sites, even though I lived in Thailand and my company has offices in Bangkok. The "interpretation" of the Thai law by the legal department of my company stated that we did not need or require WP's.

you were working illegally... you needed a WP in the example given, you were working for a Thai based company...yours is clean cut...you were illegal...your legal department can state what ever they want, its not down to them as regards the interpretation...the consequences if you were caught were not on them...a company employing someone without a WP can be fined around THB 60,000 however the real serious consquences are on the employee themselves..big fine, possible jail, deportation etc....not saying this is what will happen, but there are provisions in the law for this